Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread V

mfceiling

jm08 wrote: »

Some of that was with poor discipline (SOB), along with the lack of preparation of Jackson at flyhalf would have gone along with that. There were many advocating on this forum that POC should be dropped for Henderson (I know:)), not to mention that POM shouldn't even be at the world cup.

5/10 to the coaching staff for preparation.

5/10...

Yeah Joe, What the hell did you think you were doing not picking POC, POM, Payne, Sexton for the Argentinan game?

Oh wait....

POC was in the worst form of the locks so people did mention that

Podge_irl

Deleted User wrote: »

POC was in the worst form of the locks so people did mention that

I absolutely do not remember that (though I far from read everything during the RWC). The odd ludicrous opinion, and that is clearly ludicrous, shouldn't really be referenced in any serious manner though.

It is very, very difficult to prepare for the level of disruption Ireland faced between the French game and the QF. Argentina had the perfect game plan to attack us out wide and our midfield defence simply wasn't good enough to slow them down without Sexton and Payne there. It happens - it's the only convincing defeat we've had under Schmidt since the Australia game which was only his second in charge. Yes, it was another RWC QF exit but I'm reasonably sick of the doom and gloom nonsense and I'm very sick of the fact I think Schmidt is being more harshly judged because he has managed to raise expectations by making Ireland more consistently successful.

All that said, the Wales Online article is largely right - we are facing into a difficult period. It has a lot more to do with the IRFU and global rugby economics than it does with coaching of the Ireland team though.

Podge_irl

Podge_irl wrote: »

I absolutely do not remember that (though I far from read everything during the RWC). The odd ludicrous opinion, and that is clearly ludicrous, shouldn't really be referenced in any serious manner though.

...

It wasn't ludicrous. The argument made sense. The debate was revolving around toner vs Henderson starting against France. I'm sure awec can remember this well. People said that Henderson was clearly in better form than toner (undeniable) but to rebuke that point people mentioned that POC was in the worst form of the three yet he was undropabble, and rightly so.

Podge_irl

Deleted User wrote: »

It wasn't ludicrous. The argument made sense. The debate was revolving around toner vs Henderson starting against France. I'm sure awec can remember this well. People said that Henderson was clearly in better form than toner (undeniable) but to rebuke that point people mentioned that POC was in the worst form of the three yet he was undropabble, and rightly so.

Ok, I don't remember this though I maintain its still utterly ludicrous if anyone suggested dropping POC. I can not imagine that was a serious suggestion by someone.

(I DO remember the Toner/Henderson argument mind just not the POC bit).

CMOTDibbler

People are incredibly tetchy and gloomy here at the moment. Is it because we've probably had our worst season in Europe ever that has people so negative coming up to the 6N?

And of course the player poaching. And the injuries...

techdiver

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

People are incredibly tetchy and gloomy here at the moment. Is it because we've probably had our worst season in Europe ever that has people so negative coming up to the 6N?

And of course the player poaching. And the injuries...

It is this following on from another tame World Cup exit where we were found out in spectacular fashion.

I hope I'm wrong (especially since I'm going to the Wales game and to Twickenham :eek:), but I see this being potentially a very poor tournament for us.

The players must not be in a good place now given the world cup exit and the disaster the the EPCR was this season. Leinster were humiliated by Wasps. There is o other way of putting it. Losing in that fashion at home would have been stuff of nightmares in previous years.

Munster were bad too, not being able to beat 14 man SF and while Ulster did the best of the 3 teams they still weren't up to it in the end.

Connacht are the only shining light albeit playing in a lesser competition.

As I said, I really hope I'm wrong. I am not one of those who "want Joe to fail", quite the opposite. I just worry for the future at the moment.

former total

Podge_irl wrote: »

Ok, I don't remember this though I maintain its still utterly ludicrous if anyone suggested dropping POC. I can not imagine that was a serious suggestion by someone.

It really was never suggested. It was a logical progression:

1) Henderson is on fire, so he must play based on form
2) But if you are picking solely on form, the pairing would be Henderson and Toner
3) But you can't drop O'Connell
4) If you can't drop O'Connell, then you accept that selections are not always based entirely on form.
5) If selections are not always based entirely on form, then picking Henderson is not mandatory.

So no-one advocated dropping O'Connell.

kuang1

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

People are incredibly tetchy and gloomy here at the moment. Is it because we've probably had our worst season in Europe ever that has people so negative coming up to the 6N?

And of course the player poaching. And the injuries...

I agree the tone of late here has been edgy, bordering on aggressively pessimistic in some instances.
I'm all for free speech but I've taken the step of actually blocking 2 posters due to their persistent, grating, painful negative outlook. (I never blocked anyone before now)

And yes I'll confess I'm an optimist when it comes to the Irish rugby team's chances generally, but not at the expense of realism.

Reality right now is: the last match Ireland played was disappointing, but I for one wasn't shocked by the result given that we started with 66% of our full 15.
Centre was definitely a problem position for us at the world cup and I would be critical of Joe for how he handled it (Earls v Cave etc).
But I've agreed with pretty much everything else Joe has done since he's come in, so I'm very happy to wait and see what he does with the backline this 6n. McCloskey needs to be involved imo. Simultaneously, we need to see a freshening at FB too.

The Irish team are a completely different animal to what the sum of the provinces is...if ya get me.

I expect a lot of guys who've been somewhat under performing up to now this season to be revitalised and sharpened up for being at Carton house and under Joe's watch.

All that said; a very tough 6 nations ahead. I reckon we win all our games bar the French one. Then get done on points by the Welsh on the last day.

CMOTDibbler

techdiver wrote: »

The players must not be in a good place now given the world cup exit and the disaster the the EPCR was this season. Leinster were humiliated by Wasps. There is o other way of putting it. Losing in that fashion at home would have been stuff of nightmares in previous years.

They can approach it in two ways though. Head down, gloomy and fatalistic or determined to show that the RWC was what most people said it was; bad luck with injuries in key positions.

We are still missing POM, and POC is gone but Payne and Henshaw will be back as well as Sexton. We probably have the depth to cover POM's absence but POC's leadership is irreplacable really.

It will be interesting to see how we manage and how we play.

techdiver

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

They can approach it in two ways though. Head down, gloomy and fatalistic or determined to show that the RWC was what most people said it was; bad luck with injuries in key positions.

We are still missing POM, and POC is gone but Payne and Henshaw will be back as well as Sexton. We probably have the depth to cover POM's absence but POC's leadership is irreplacable really.

It will be interesting to see how we manage and how we play.

True, but I still think the management team should be taking more of a hit as I believe the loss to Argentina was as much down to a defensive systems failure as a personnel issue. Everyone and their granny knew how Argentina would attack Ireland that day apart from the Irish team and management it seemed.

I just hope that, that deficiency has been identified and fixed before the start of the 6 Nations.

Yeah_Right

techdiver wrote: »

True, but I still think the management team should be taking more of a hit as I believe the loss to Argentina was as much down to a defensive systems failure as a personnel issue. Everyone and their granny knew how Argentina would attack Ireland that day apart from the Irish team and management it seemed.

I just hope that, that deficiency has been identified and fixed before the start of the 6 Nations.

I disagree. When I watched it the second time, it seemed to me that the issue wasn't the systems but the execution and communication. Too many defensive leaders missing, guys in the wrong spot or making bad reads.

A couple of posters have mentioned the head spaces of the players at the moment. Does Ireland have a mental skills coach?

CMOTDibbler

techdiver wrote: »

True, but I still think the management team should be taking more of a hit as I believe the loss to Argentina was as much down to a defensive systems failure as a personnel issue. Everyone and their granny knew how Argentina would attack Ireland that day apart from the Irish team and management it seemed.

I just hope that, that deficiency has been identified and fixed before the start of the 6 Nations.

Knowing what to expect and being able to nullify it are two different things though. Argentina are not easy to contain. You have to be able to slow down their ruck ball and cut off the wide pass all the time they have possession; phase after phase. Without leaving gaps in midfield or giving away penalties. Without players like Sean O'Brien or Peter O'Mahony or Paul O'Connell you're not going to be able to do the first as effectively and without Jonny Sexton or Jared Payne and the aforementioned, you're in trouble with the second as well.

Argentina were able to get around New Zealand as well, don't forget. It's just that NZ were able to counter more effectively having a full deck to play from.

former total

former total wrote: »

It really was never suggested. It was a logical progression:

1) Henderson is on fire, so he must play based on form
2) But if you are picking solely on form, the pairing would be Henderson and Toner
3) But you can't drop O'Connell
4) If you can't drop O'Connell, then you accept that selections are not always based entirely on form.
5) If selections are not always based entirely on form, then picking Henderson is not mandatory.

So no-one advocated dropping O'Connell.

CMOTDibbler

Yeah_Right wrote: »

I disagree. When I watched it the second time, it seemed to me that the issue wasn't the systems but the execution and communication. Too many defensive leaders missing, guys in the wrong spot or making bad reads.

A couple of posters have mentioned the head spaces of the players at the moment. Does Ireland have a mental skills coach?

I don't know if he's on a retainer or just used on an ad hoc basis but Enda McNulty has worked with the players in the past.

Neil3030

Just listened to the Off the Ball podcast from last night and it has calmed me down a bit regarding the exodus of players to England/France.

Madigan - leaving for game time at 10.
JJ - left to get game time at 10.
Moore - Wanted a longer contract but needed to wait for Ross to retire.
Earls - Appears to be leaving for family reasons.

All very different to a case like:

Te'o - offered a tonne of money he couldn't turn down (£450k) and we would be stupid to match (€590k on current rates).

Also worth pointing out is the timing; the largest exodus will be this season, as it still gives players a chance to play abroad for 3 years and return in time to be in contention for World Cup places.

Now of course, the IRFU made an absolute BALLS of the Moore situation, and Munster/Foley appear to have backed the wrong horse with Keatley over JJ. I also maintain that good things don't happen when Ian Madigan is on a rugby field so Earls is the only one you could consider a kick in the nads. However, if his family reasons are legit then fair enough.

ArmchairQB

Yeah_Right wrote: »

I disagree. When I watched it the second time, it seemed to me that the issue wasn't the systems but the execution and communication. Too many defensive leaders missing, guys in the wrong spot or making bad reads.

A couple of posters have mentioned the head spaces of the players at the moment. Does Ireland have a mental skills coach?

A bit of both I would say. Tactics were wrong and we set up as if we didn't know How Argentina would play when every one and their mother knew how they would play. Along with so many top players missing which was of course a problem but shouldn't have been as bad as it was. It was Argentina a team which we thought & should be well able to compete with and not one of NZ, Aus or SA. Coaches deserve criticism as well. A good performance and win against Wales would restore some confidence but anything else and the clouds of impending doom will be hovering!

Neil3030

Neil3030 wrote: »

Just listened to the Off the Ball podcast from last night and it has calmed me down a bit regarding the exodus of players to England/France.

Madigan - leaving for game time at 10.
JJ - left to get game time at 10.
Moore - Wanted a longer contract but needed to wait for Ross to retire.
Earls - Appears to be leaving for family reasons.

All very different to a case like:

Te'o - offered a tonne of money he couldn't turn down (£450k) and we would be stupid to match (€590k on current rates).

Also worth pointing out is the timing; the largest exodus will be this season, as it still gives players a chance to play abroad for 3 years and return in time to be in contention for World Cup places.

Now of course, the IRFU made an absolute BALLS of the Moore situation, and Munster/Foley appear to have backed the wrong horse with Keatley over JJ. I also maintain that good things don't happen when Ian Madigan is on a rugby field so Earls is the only one you could consider a kick in the nads. However, if his family reasons are legit then fair enough.

I hate to be cynical but is "family reasons" another way of saying "he wants more money"?

former total

Deleted User wrote: »

I hate to be cynical but is "family reasons" another way of saying "he wants more money"?

Yeah, pretty much - "He has to do what's best for his family" is more palatable than "he has to make as much money as he can while he's in his prime".

Likewise; Madigan could have gone to Munster for game time, JJH could have gone to Connacht, but presumably for a lot less than Bordeaux/Northampton were offering.

The Moore thing just seems to have been a total clusterf**k all round.

I'm still optimistic that the Earls thing won't happen though.

Quint2010

Deleted User wrote: »

I hate to be cynical but is "family reasons" another way of saying "he wants more money"?

No-his wife wants more money...

Bazzo

techdiver wrote: »

True, but I still think the management team should be taking more of a hit as I believe the loss to Argentina was as much down to a defensive systems failure as a personnel issue. Everyone and their granny knew how Argentina would attack Ireland that day apart from the Irish team and management it seemed.

I just hope that, that deficiency has been identified and fixed before the start of the 6 Nations.

Not sure what you mean by "taking a hit" and not that I actually think there was anything wrong with Les Kiss but the Irish team do have a new defensive coach.

irishbucsfan

techdiver wrote: »

True, but I still think the management team should be taking more of a hit as I believe the loss to Argentina was as much down to a defensive systems failure as a personnel issue. Everyone and their granny knew how Argentina would attack Ireland that day apart from the Irish team and management it seemed.

I just hope that, that deficiency has been identified and fixed before the start of the 6 Nations.

I don't really think it was down to management. Schmidt pretty much predicted where the Argentinian strengths would be in the immediate aftermath of the France game. I think we knew where they would hit us we were just unable to stop it. Schmit did say exactly what he thought the cause was:

“It was a performance that the players will learn from,” the head coach said. “There was a lot of players who have never been in a match of that intensity and hopefully that experience will offer something in the future. Certainly the dressing room is very disappointed.

“They [Argentina] made the most of those two chances early in the game and building that scoreboard pressure allowed them a real lift in confidence and probably dented the confidence of our group, some of whom were certainly not overawed by the occasion, but it was a very big occasion. It did make it difficult with the intensity they started with.

“Chris Henry and Jordi Murphy did a super job. Iain Henderson and Dev Toner were tireless and I think Ian Madigan acquitted himself really well. I’m incredibly proud of the way those guys stepped up.

“You can’t afford to give a team a head start like that and at 23-20 we even had a position in their 22 and worked an overlap that we didn’t go to. It’s probably a little bit of a lack of experience and that’s frustrating.”

Podge_irl

Had SOB been in the backrow and had Sexton and Payne been in midfield then Argentina simply wouldn't have gotten the ball out wide so quickly and with such regularity. We defended quite narrowly and that was fine when we had momentum stuffers in the middle of the pitch. With them gone there was always going to be space to exploit out wide (DK did not do well at all, but he was covering acres of space).

CMOTDibbler

ArmchairQB wrote: »

A bit of both I would say. Tactics were wrong and we set up as if we didn't know How Argentina would play when every one and their mother knew how they would play. Along with so many top players missing which was of course a problem but shouldn't have been as bad as it was. It was Argentina a team which we thought & should be well able to compete with and not one of NZ, Aus or SA. Coaches deserve criticism as well. A good performance and win against Wales would restore some confidence but anything else and the clouds of impending doom will be hovering!

This is so obvious that it's hard to understand how you can go on to say that the coaching ticket screwed up on tactics.

It's not as though we hadn't played against a team that tried to go around us before or anything. Or that the tactic was somehow new and innovative.

molloyjh

Neil3030 wrote: »

I just understand some people's mindsets here.

When we try use things in our favour (head office of a tournament being in Dublin, guaranteed qualification, etc) it's unfair and it's right that it gets corrected.

When English teams use things in their favour (greater populations creating more money, BT gambling to choke Sky, blind eyes being turned to debt and salary cap violations), it's totally fine, that's just private companies doing what they need to do, it's their prerogative.

It's what I was talking about a few years ago. Levelling the playing field in the areas where it was unbalanced to the big boys disadvantage and leaving it unbalanced where it suits them. That is exactly what has happened and anyone who tells you otherwise is talking out their backsides. Each argument made at the time made total sense when taken in isolation. But when looked at in the wider context was obviously hugely flawed. And we're starting to see where it has taken us now. A massively uncompetitive environment where the big boys hold all the cards.

swiwi_

molloyjh wrote: »

It's what I was talking about a few years ago. Levelling the playing field in the areas where it was unbalanced to the big boys disadvantage and leaving it unbalanced where it suits them. That is exactly what has happened and anyone who tells you otherwise is talking out their backsides. Each argument made at the time made total sense when taken in isolation. But when looked at in the wider context was obviously hugely flawed. And we're starting to see where it has taken us now. A massively uncompetitive environment where the big boys hold all the cards.

Honestly molloy, I think Irish rugby fans want their cake and to eat it too. You want to be able to buy-in talent, but not so keen on other clubs buying-up Irish talent.

With the free market, the financial clout of the English and French clubs come into play. Either Irish clubs have to be innovative, or else you have to lobby for each club only being allowed to buy so many players, salary caps etc. But the TV money is all with the UK and France, and given the way the Pro 12 was slow to contemplate change, I doubt you can expect too many favours from the bigger neighbours.

I'd be grateful if you'd lobby for a moratorium on buying SH players. As long as you don't mind Kirchner, Triggs, Nacewa etc heading back to the SH...

techdiver

Bazzo wrote: »

Not sure what you mean by "taking a hit" and not that I actually think there was anything wrong with Les Kiss but the Irish team do have a new defensive coach.

I mean there should have been more questions asked and answered regarding the defensive frailty against Argentina.

All I heard post game was the inevitable injuries situation was to blame 100%.

Edit: BTW, I'm not looking for anyone's head here. Mistakes are made all the time in sport. I just want the reassurance that they acknowledged that mistakes were made and won't be repeated.

irishbucsfan

molloyjh wrote: »

A massively uncompetitive environment where the big boys hold all the cards.

Looks pretty damn competitive to me.

You just can't call something uncompetitive when you lose the competition. That's the soft way out, instead we need to do so much more to compete.

If anyone is going to look at the French and English TV deals (worth hundreds of millions of pounds between them over however long) and then look at our deal (worth a couple of million of pounds a year in total) and tell me that we're doing everything we can do, then they're the people who are talking out of their arse.

I think former total is right in that we probably can't fully compete with the English or French, IE our TV deal won't ever be worth THAT much, but we can certainly get a lot closer than we are. Even if it was worth half as much, instead of one tenth as much, and I think that's a completely conservative estimate. Once we get there, that TV deal would be more than enough to supplement our 6 Nations income which the private clubs will never get access to (they get a small amount but nothing like our provinces do), and the tables will be tipped completely back in our favour.

Instead of crying and pointing the finger at everyone else, we should embrace the challenge and see it as a competition that we absolutely can win. Imagine we took that type of soft approach to the rugby field, we'd be steamrolled.

irishbucsfan

swiwi_ wrote: »

Honestly molloy, I think Irish rugby fans want their cake and to eat it too. You want to be able to buy-in talent, but not so keen on other clubs buying-up Irish talent.

With the free market, the financial clout of the English and French clubs come into play. Either Irish clubs have to be innovative, or else you have to lobby for each club only being allowed to buy so many players, salary caps etc. But the TV money is all with the UK and France, and given the way the Pro 12 was slow to contemplate change, I doubt you can expect too many favours from the bigger neighbours.

I'd be grateful if you'd lobby for a moratorium on buying SH players. As long as you don't mind Kirchner, Triggs, Nacewa etc heading back to the SH...

No, you misunderstand, it's only competitive if we're winning the competition swiwi_!

jm08

Bazzo wrote: »

I'm going to regret rowing in to this conversation at all, but I don't think anybody was advocating that. There was a lot of debate about Toner vs Henderson and there was also mention that Henderson was likely to be POC's successor.

Yes they were - and right back to the 6Ns. It seems that Toner was regarded as the lineout guru (you just need to be tall for that) and Henderson was needed for his carrying which POC was regarded as not being good at.

Similarly, POM didn't make enough tackles. Whiff of Cordite has devoted a whole blog to the subject

errlloyd

Actually POC's carrying was bloody brutal until his last year with Ireland, the ability to learn and reinvent was clearly evident as he made more yards and better carries than ever before.

swiwi_

irishbucsfan wrote: »

No, you misunderstand, it's only competitive if we're winning the competition swiwi_!

I think there'll be minimal if any sympathy outside of Ireland for this situation.

It's just the extension of the whole Celtic Tiger era, clubs bought big and won big, and no-one on the island of Ireland cared less if Munster or Leinster winning back to back titles might have been a tad "boring" for the supporters of French or English clubs. Now that the roles are reversed and it's all "grossly unfair" etc, it just rings very hollow I would imagine.

I'm not fussed either way, whether it's the Irish clubs or the UK clubs or the French clubs, it's still NZ rugby players leaving NZ shores.

NZ has adapted as best we can, how long we can hold the breach I have no idea, but the likes of Savea and Retallick signing 4 year contracts was promising in the short-term anyway.

I already said buying Piutau for mega bucks was shortsighted, you simply won't get top quality NZ players coming to Ireland for less than what Ulster chose to pay. Meanwhile Ulster's forward pack would struggle in the ITM cup.

Cronin The Destroyer

A WC Semifinal exit versus back to back Six Nations Championships is no choice at all for me. Championships every time. For the longest time I would have bitten your face off for a Six Nation's Championship and Schmidt has engineered two. Give the guy a break ffs. You are not guaranteed anything in the World Cup and we were missing many of our World Class players (or whatever you prefer to call Sexton, O'Mahony, O'Brien & O'Connell).

We lost to a rampant Argentina playing a style of rugby that was a joy to behold and that we just weren't up for on the day despite clawing our way back into the game at one stage. The game plan seemed naive but there was a lack of leadership on the field also. It's sport. By 2019 with the players we have coming through and the cumulative experience of winning six nations titles on their belts our team could be a real contender (if we can find a world class fly-half! Don't think poor Sexton has 4 years left in him).

Anyway, everybody already knew NZ were the best team in the world. I have enormous respect for South Africa as a rugby playing nation but I don't respect them more because they scraped through to the QFs. Australia should have lost to Scotland FFS.

Lets forget about the WC. We were never going to win it, so the best thing now is to blood in lots of new players, move on the golden oldies, and let Schmidt develop his game plan and organise our future.

CMOTDibbler

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I think former total is right in that we probably can't fully compete with the English or French, IE our TV deal won't ever be worth THAT much, but we can certainly get a lot closer than we are. Even if it was worth half as much, instead of one tenth as much, and I think that's a completely conservative estimate. Once we get there, that TV deal would be more than enough to supplement our 6 Nations income which the private clubs will never get access to (they get a small amount but nothing like our provinces do), and the tables will be tipped completely back in our favour.

Is that even remotely realistic?

The broad popularity of rugby in Italy is negligible, so as a market it's almost more trouble than it's worth leaving Ireland, Scotland and Wales; two of which have already got a product available to them (Premiership rugby) and which has already been paid for by the broadcaster no doubt.

former total

swiwi_ wrote: »

Honestly molloy, I think Irish rugby fans want their cake and to eat it too. You want to be able to buy-in talent, but not so keen on other clubs buying-up Irish talent.

With the free market, the financial clout of the English and French clubs come into play. Either Irish clubs have to be innovative, or else you have to lobby for each club only being allowed to buy so many players, salary caps etc. But the TV money is all with the UK and France, and given the way the Pro 12 was slow to contemplate change, I doubt you can expect too many favours from the bigger neighbours.

I'd be grateful if you'd lobby for a moratorium on buying SH players. As long as you don't mind Kirchner, Triggs, Nacewa etc heading back to the SH...

The spectre of losing Hayden Triggs will focus a few minds alright...

But no, at some point we will have to accept this is the new reality of rugby, barring some massive TV rights deal for the Pro12... We can shake our fists at the sky all we want but it was inevitable once the Top 14 and AP money went through the roof.

It's not "unfair", it's just the reality of professional sport.

swiwi_

swiwi_ wrote: »

I think there'll be minimal if any sympathy outside of Ireland for this situation.

I don't think anyone is looking for sympathy and a minority are calling things "unfair". I think the overall sentiment on the forum is one questioning what can be done to retain talent, and wondering if the IRFU is playing it's best game (the Moore situation looks like it wasn't handled well).

jm08

clsmooth wrote: »

POC shouldn't have started and POM shouldn't have been there? Not sure where that's from. I think Joe got it spot on at the World Cup aside from putting Earls in at 13. That to me was his big mistake. I thought he'd be exposed v France but came though that reasonably well. Argentina though was a different story. But that was due to the injury to Payne. Not much else he could do missing 5 first teamers against Argentina.

Where I see the major errors:

1. Bringing (and then playing) an unfit Healy (who they were trying to get fit through the tournament).
2. Pack selections: Once POC was injured he should have selected Toner & Ryan in 2nd Row, with Henderson @ 6.
3. Poor management that Jackson didn't get more gametime
4. Selecting Dave Kearney on the wing - doesn't have the pace for international rugby. Should have been Fitzgerald with Zebo on bench.

Overall, there was far too much time and effort put into trying to get some players up to speed.

jm08

jm08 wrote: »

Where I see the major errors:

1. Bringing (and then playing) an unfit Healy (who they were trying to get fit through the tournament).
2. Pack selections: Once POC was injured he should have selected Toner & Ryan in 2nd Row, with Henderson @ 6.
3. Poor management that Jackson didn't get more gametime
4. Selecting Dave Kearney on the wing - doesn't have the pace for international rugby. Should have been Fitzgerald with Zebo on bench.

Overall, there was far too much time and effort put into trying to get some players up to speed.

Dave Kearney is perfectly equipped to deal with international rugby. Posting daily that he isn't fast enough isn't going to make it true.

With no Sean O'Brien, POC, POM give us international / world class deck merchants and without them we simply couldn't secure enough fast ball and slow theirs down.

We had a 10 who spent most of the season playing 12, and a 13 who spent most of the season injured and is otherwise a winger. Our mid field defence was all over the place and this cause problems across the backline.

I'm not excusing Joe, he definitely failed in managing continuity at 10 and 13 in case of injuries, but that's World Cup Rugby, you take risks, sometimes they don't work.

techdiver

swiwi_ wrote: »

I think there'll be minimal if any sympathy outside of Ireland for this situation.

It's just the extension of the whole Celtic Tiger era, clubs bought big and won big, and no-one on the island of Ireland cared less if Munster or Leinster winning back to back titles might have been a tad "boring" for the supporters of French or English clubs. Now that the roles are reversed and it's all "grossly unfair" etc, it just rings very hollow I would imagine.
.

I don't think it is in any way comparable to what is going on at the moment.

Irish clubs always had strict quotas in place. They would purchase one or two high profile players now and then. It is not the same as the like of Toulon who just buy 25 world class players.

How many Irish players were in the Leinster starting 15 that won the Heineken Cups in 2012? 12 (13 if you include Strauss who now plays for Ireland).

In Toulons case in the 3 finals they won they had how many French players in the starting 15?

2013: 4
2014: 3
2015: 4

Pink Fairy

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Dave Kearney is perfectly equipped to deal with international rugby. Posting daily that he isn't fast enough isn't going to make it true.

With no Sean O'Brien, POC, POM give us international / world class deck merchants and without them we simply couldn't secure enough fast ball and slow theirs down.

We had a 10 who spent most of the season playing 12, and a 13 who spent most of the season injured and is otherwise a winger. Our mid field defence was all over the place and this cause problems across the backline.

I'm not excusing Joe, he definitely failed in managing continuity at 10 and 13 in case of injuries, but that's World Cup Rugby, you take risks, sometimes they don't work.

By that reasoning....Every professional winger in the provinces match dsy squads is perfectly equipped to play international rugby....doesn't mean I want to see them all given the opportunity

irishbucsfan

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Is that even remotely realistic?

The broad popularity of rugby in Italy is negligible, so as a market it's almost more trouble than it's worth leaving Ireland, Scotland and Wales; two of which have already got a product available to them (Premiership rugby) and which has already been paid for by the broadcaster no doubt.

Is it remotely realistic that the rugby watching population of Ireland, Wales, Scotland and Italy combined are worth half as much to broadcasters as the rugby watching population of England? Yes, I would say it is. The viewing figures would back that up as well.

Neil3030

I'm putting this in here because while it argues for a very Welsh issue, my underlying interest is in Irish provincial and thereafter national rugby.

North Wales needs a region in the Pro12.


See image above. Bangor, a main City on the North Wales coastline, is actually closer to DUBLIN than it is to Llanelli. I spoke to two lads last October in the RDS who support Scarlets. Their commute is from a town in North Wales just over the border near Chester (top right corner of the map above). Insane to think that they need to drive 8 hours round-trip (if traffic is good) to support their 'local' team.

OK so North Wales doesn't get a fair shake, why is this an issue?

Identity.

Irish provinces pack out international stadia for interprovincial league matches because we very easily identify as being a member of a certain province (Lunsters aside). The Welsh regions, in contrast, were drawn to keep the club teams happy. They were not drawn up with an eye toward the identity, logistics, or fanbase of the ensuing teams.

North Wales very much has an identity. They very much have a chip on their shoulder about the South getting the main economic advantages. They will very swiftly get behind any way of identifying themselves against South Wales. There is also no structure in North Wales for promising school players (many of whom don't go to Uni) to continue their development - they can either go to Chester or Sale unless they want to totally relocate to join their 'local' team's academy.

A team in North Wales can also be easily accessed by travelling Irish fans - ferry to Holyhead and train to Bangor, Llandudno, Colwyn Bay, Rhyl or wherever they locate the team. The most sensible option is probably to just get behind Rygbi Gogledd Cymru (RGC), based in Colwyn Bay (about... 40 minutes from Holyhead by train).

And now to get to how this is relevant to Ireland. Irish rugby is the flagpole for the Pro12 because of our interprovincial rivalry. Injecting a meaningful Welsh rivalry (operating on an INTER, rather than INTRA regional basis) into the competition will give a whole new financial string to the league's bow. More match-day attendees, more eyes on TV screens, more money for the league. More money for the league, more money for us, more Irish players in Ireland, etc. etc.

jm08

Deleted User wrote: »

Dave Kearney is perfectly equipped to deal with international rugby. Posting daily that he isn't fast enough isn't going to make it true.

Ignoring the fact that his wing is targetting at international level because of how lacking in pace he is, isn't helpful either.

With no Sean O'Brien, POC, POM give us international / world class deck merchants and without them we simply couldn't secure enough fast ball and slow theirs down.

And how come Schmidt hasn't sorted out SOB's discipline? POM used be criticised for his discipline (and still is based on him in his early years), but SOB is old and bold enough to know that you can't do what he did.

We had a 10 who spent most of the season playing 12, and a 13 who spent most of the season injured and is otherwise a winger. Our mid field defence was all over the place and this cause problems across the backline.

I'm not excusing Joe, he definitely failed in managing continuity at 10 and 13 in case of injuries, but that's World Cup Rugby, you take risks, sometimes they don't work.

You are excusing him. And Earls at 13 was the least of the problems.

awec

I don't think rugby union is as big in north wales. It's mostly football up there I think.

Anyway, I think the WRU have tried to create a northern team but it hasn't really taken off.

irishbucsfan

There was a region for North Wales, you know that right?

It failed completely. It was a nightmare, it's not going to happen again any time soon. Bridgend/Pontypridd would both be much happier to see the regions wound down and the Welsh Premiership merged with PRL.

CMOTDibbler

techdiver wrote: »

How many Irish players were in the Leinster starting 15 that won the Heineken Cups in 2012? 12 (13 if you include Strauss who now plays for Ireland).

Leinster 2009: 18/22 Irish (2 Aussies, 1 Fijian (via NZ) and 1 Cook Islander)
Leinster 2011: 18/23 Irish (2 Saffers, 1 Fijian (NZ), 1 CI and 1 Scot (Ozzie))
Leinster 2012: 18/23 Irish (2 Saffers, 1 Fijian (NZ), 2 NZ)

Not exactly raping and pillaging the SH for players really, were we?

Neil3030

I live some of the year in North Wales, have had this conversation with MULTIPLE people of various nationalities (mostly Welsh, mostly people who PLAY rugby) and not one person has mentioned that there used to be a f**king team here.

wp_rathead

Who Celtic Warrior's? They weren't more a central Wales team though?
It was a disaster due to inept administration - should have been kept.. Ponty fans would eventually have come around to it - now though they are in the catchment area for Cardiff Region and they refuse to support Cardiff Blues

irishbucsfan

wp_rathead wrote: »

Who Celtic Warrior's? They weren't more a central Wales team though?
It was a disaster due to inept administration - should have been kept.. Ponty fans would eventually have come around to it - now though they are in the catchment area for Cardiff Region and they refuse to support Cardiff Blues

Pontypridd was as North as they could get a team suitable. The whole point of the Warriors was to represent the North. They'd be about a quarter or the size of the Dragons if it was Bangor/Colwyn Bay. It was more a Glamorgan team though to be fair.

Neil3030

This was the first year Welsh regions joined up in the 03/04 Celtic League



When was there a North Wales team?