Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread V

awec

No not the celtic warriors, that is a different issue.

There is a northern region called RGC 1404 which is not a professional side but is pretty much the same as the other regions in that the other clubs feed players to it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RGC_1404

The idea is (or was) that it could eventually join the pro12.

irishbucsfan

awec wrote: »

No not the celtic warriors, that is a different issue.

Much better memory than me!

molloyjh

swiwi_ wrote: »

Honestly molloy, I think Irish rugby fans want their cake and to eat it too. You want to be able to buy-in talent, but not so keen on other clubs buying-up Irish talent.

With the free market, the financial clout of the English and French clubs come into play. Either Irish clubs have to be innovative, or else you have to lobby for each club only being allowed to buy so many players, salary caps etc. But the TV money is all with the UK and France, and given the way the Pro 12 was slow to contemplate change, I doubt you can expect too many favours from the bigger neighbours.

I'd be grateful if you'd lobby for a moratorium on buying SH players. As long as you don't mind Kirchner, Triggs, Nacewa etc heading back to the SH...

From my perspective the way that all of the Unions managed it made sense. While I agree that an element of change was required I'm not at all happy with the level of change that happened. In brief the initial agreement was the the smaller nations (that couldn't hope to compete financially with the English and French off their own bat) got a disproportionate share of the revenue from the HEC to allow them to be competitive with the 2 bigger nations. I was never against reviewing that as it only makes sense to look at those splits over time. But the disproportionate nature of the revenue split was the only thing that could possibly keep the smaller nations even close to competing with the larger ones. As soon as that was removed the smaller nations were always going to struggle.

The whole movement of talent thing is a little bit of a red herring. Irish players have been moving abroad for years. Sexton left before the deal on the Champions Cup was done. Tommy Bowe left Ireland long before any of those things happened. Geordan Murphy spent his entire career at Leicester. Cullen and Jennings spent a good chunk of time there too. This is about a gulf between the English/French and everyone else. The disproportionate split of revenue helped to bridge that gulf. In isolation a statement like "Leinster get a larger share than Wasps" sounds unfair. In the wider context there was good reason behind it.

As I said reviewing it made sense. Maybe it had gone too far one way and needed to be reigned in a little. Maybe Ireland needed to get proportionally less than the other Pro12 sides. But getting rid of it altogether has created a massively biased set-up in European rugby. And that should concern all of us. Because I don't think any rugby nation anywhere in the world can compete with what is happening in the 2 big countries now. And we haven't seen the end of it yet by a long shot.

awec

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Much better memory than me!

Sometimes I do wonder if Wales contribution to the pro12 would be better if they had stuck with their old clubs and turned the bigger ones professional, rather than making up regions.

I think the arguments centered around regions helping the national side more, but only one of the regions has ever been any use and you would have to question just how much benefit they do give.

Neil3030

awec wrote: »

I don't think rugby union is as big in north wales. It's mostly football up there I think.

Anyway, I think the WRU have tried to create a northern team but it hasn't really taken off.

To an extent, but that's a bit misleading. It's a work in progress but can only get so far. They were announced as a development team in 2008, but only entered into the Welsh Division 1 East in 2012. They got promotion into the Welsh Championship a couple of years ago. Their ceiling, at the moment, is the Welsh Premiership.

So there has never been anything close to a region in North Wales.

CIARAN_BOYLE

Neil3030 wrote: »

To an extent, but that's a bit misleading. It's a work in progress but can only get so far. They were announced as a development team in 2008, but only entered into the Welsh Division 1 East in 2012. They got promotion into the Welsh Championship a couple of years ago. Their ceiling, at the moment, is the Welsh Premiership.

So there has never been anything close to a region in North Wales.

At underage however RGC 1404 plays with Ospreys and Scarlets and Blues Dragons.

molloyjh

swiwi_ wrote: »

It's just the extension of the whole Celtic Tiger era, clubs bought big and won big, and no-one on the island of Ireland cared less if Munster or Leinster winning back to back titles might have been a tad "boring" for the supporters of French or English clubs. Now that the roles are reversed and it's all "grossly unfair" etc, it just rings very hollow I would imagine.

Just on this, there is always an element of peaks and troughs in the game. Leicester won back to back titles in 01 and 02. And that was after Northampton won in 2000. England were actually the only country to win 3 in a row until Toulon. Leicester and Toulouse, like Munster, went through periods of being the real aristocrats of European rugby. Always there or there-abouts. For the first 10 years of the competition the only Irish side that actually won it was Ulster, the year the English boycotted it.

By the time the Champions Cups came about Munster weren't the force they had been and Leinster were already starting a bit of a decline. It's easy to look at short periods of time and claim there was something rotten, but again when you look at the wider view there is more to it than that.

CMOTDibbler

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Is it remotely realistic that the rugby watching population of Ireland, Wales, Scotland and Italy combined are worth half as much to broadcasters as the rugby watching population of England? Yes, I would say it is. The viewing figures would back that up as well.

I would agree that should be the case. But...

What you have currently is two main broadcasters fighting for the rugby watching public with a few smaller regional operators who will get squeezed out once the prices go up. This is further complicated by the fact that these broadcasters already have a good chunk of the market by virtue of the European competitions and English and French rugby.

So the market is really the marginal increase over the current subscriber base who aren't already in the net from the above. In other words, new subscribers who are only buying in to get the Pro 12 games and aren't interested in the other rugby offerings.

Is there such a beast?

molloyjh

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Leinster 2009: 18/22 Irish (2 Aussies, 1 Fijian (via NZ) and 1 Cook Islander)
Leinster 2011: 18/23 Irish (2 Saffers, 1 Fijian (NZ), 1 CI and 1 Scot (NZer'ish))
Leinster 2012: 18/23 Irish (2 Saffers, 1 Fijian (NZ), 2 NZ)

Not exactly raping and pillaging the SH for players really, were we?

No, but I get swiwis point. How many non-Kiwis are starting for their top sides? The difference between us and Toulon is a matter of degree, but that's all.

Yeah_Right

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Leinster 2009: 18/22 Irish (2 Aussies, 1 Fijian (via NZ) and 1 Cook Islander)
Leinster 2011: 18/23 Irish (2 Saffers, 1 Fijian (NZ), 1 CI and 1 Scot (NZer'ish))
Leinster 2012: 18/23 Irish (2 Saffers, 1 Fijian (NZ), 2 NZ)

Not exactly raping and pillaging the SH for players really, were we?

Who was the Scots/NZer?

irishbucsfan

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Who was the Scots/NZer?

Nathan Hines, he's an Ozzie

Scythica

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Who was the Scots/NZer?

Thorn and White?

WRONG SEASON EDIT

Yeah_Right

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Who was the Scots/NZer?

Nathan Hines. Think he was born in Australia though.

molloyjh

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Who was the Scots/NZer?

A Highlander?

Seriously though I think he's referring to Nathan Hines who was actually born in Oz as opposed to NZ.

irishbucsfan

Scythica wrote: »

Thorn and White?

Is Brad Thorn Scottish? Wow between himself and Richie McCaw the Scottish have really missed out on some top quality...

CMOTDibbler

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Who was the Scots/NZer?

Sorry, my bad. Nathan Hines is from WaggaWagga in Oz. I'm now going out the back to have myself humanely put down.

Scythica

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Is Brad Thorn Scottish? Wow between himself and Richie McCaw the Scottish have really missed out on some top quality...

I read his question as the Scot and the NZer, uni education paying off well there. Thought that White might have some sort of scot in him I dunno.

Not that I'm right in that case either

CMOTDibbler

molloyjh wrote: »

No, but I get swiwis point. How many non-Kiwis are starting for their top sides? The difference between us and Toulon is a matter of degree, but that's all.

As far as I know, they're only allowed two foreign players in their sides. At the moment, these seem to be predominantly from SH countries like Argentina or Japan.

But without being smart, why would the biggest producer of quality rugby players in the world be looking abroad for players?

molloyjh

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

As far as I know, they're only allowed two foreign players in their sides. At the moment, these seem to be predominantly from SH countries like Argentina or Japan.

But without being smart, why would the biggest producer of quality rugby players in the world be looking abroad for players?

They wouldn't, but the point is that we are taking talent away from the SH. Just to a lesser degree than the French clubs are. Swiwi is trying to say that we shouldn't really be complaining about a reduced ability to buy overseas players because we are still buying them from the SH at the expense of clubs down there without thought for those clubs.

CMOTDibbler

molloyjh wrote: »

They wouldn't, but the point is that we are taking talent away from the SH. Just to a lesser degree than the French clubs are. Swiwi is trying to say that we shouldn't really be complaining about a reduced ability to buy overseas players because we are still buying them from the SH at the expense of clubs down there without thought for those clubs.

Well that's not something I'm saying.

I've always maintained that we should be self-sufficient in terms of players and buy-ins should only be necessary in the short term and for fire-fighting. I strongly believe that the academy sizes are artificially low (certainly in Leinster and Ulster posters are saying similar) and could be increased gradually.

But it seems a sisyphean task to persuade people that it might be necessary, even when reality is staring us in the face.

awec

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/six-nations/joe-schmidt-reveals-irfu-contract-wont-allow-him-to-coach-the-british-and-irish-lions-next-year-34401286.html

"Joe Schmidt reveals IRFU contract won't allow him to coach the British and Irish Lions next year"

mfceiling

I think the biggest question I have is "where the fcuk do you lads work that you can spend all morning on boards"??

1eg0a3xv7b82of

awec wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/six-nations/joe-schmidt-reveals-irfu-contract-wont-allow-him-to-coach-the-british-and-irish-lions-next-year-34401286.html

"Joe Schmidt reveals IRFU contract won't allow him to coach the British and Irish Lions next year"

thats handy as he wasnt going to get the gig anyway.

fitz

molloyjh wrote: »

They wouldn't, but the point is that we are taking talent away from the SH. Just to a lesser degree than the French clubs are. Swiwi is trying to say that we shouldn't really be complaining about a reduced ability to buy overseas players because we are still buying them from the SH at the expense of clubs down there without thought for those clubs.

And that's a valid point.
The only thing that I can see addressing the imbalance of heavily privately funded teams is to impose the same quotas imposed across all Unions.
If every club were only allowed have 4 players on their books that did not or could not qualify for the national team of the club's country, then it doesn't matter how much private or tv money you have available, you still have to build a squad from the local resources. There would be fierce competition for the marquee signings, and the Dan Carters of the world are still likely to go to the big money clubs, but I think it would level the playing field significantly in terms the material impact of the money in the club game.

mfceiling

Leandro Round Billboard wrote: »

thats handy as he wasnt going to get the gig anyway.

And you know this how?

awec

Leandro Round Billboard wrote: »

thats handy as he wasnt going to get the gig anyway.

Ever since they announced the head coach had to be available on a full time basis for the year preceding the tour it has effectively ruled Schmidt out. In reality the position is being set up to suit Gatland again.

irishbucsfan

fitz wrote: »

And that's a valid point.
The only thing that I can see addressing the imbalance of heavily privately funded teams is to impose the same quotas imposed across all Unions.
If every club were only allowed have 4 players on their books that did not or could not qualify for the national team of the club's country, then it doesn't matter how much private or tv money you have available, you still have to build a squad from the local resources. There would be fierce competition for the marquee signings, and the Dan Carters of the world are still likely to go to the big money clubs, but I think it would level the playing field significantly in terms the material impact of the money in the club game.

FIFA tried to bring that in in soccer (except with 6 players I believe) and were shot down by the EU. I don't know enough about the law to say if the IRFU get away with it because the players are employed by the NGB or just because they're small enough to escape attention, but it couldn't be expanded to France or England.

1eg0a3xv7b82of

awec wrote: »

Ever since they announced the head coach had to be available on a full time basis for the year preceding the tour it has effectively ruled Schmidt out. In reality the position is being set up to suit Gatland again.

gatland is who they want and gatland wants it so much he will probably do it for free.

Sanjuro

awec wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/six-nations/joe-schmidt-reveals-irfu-contract-wont-allow-him-to-coach-the-british-and-irish-lions-next-year-34401286.html

"Joe Schmidt reveals IRFU contract won't allow him to coach the British and Irish Lions next year"

Good. I'm increasingly feeling the Lions is a massive waste of time.

Mahatma Geansai

awec wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/six-nations/joe-schmidt-reveals-irfu-contract-wont-allow-him-to-coach-the-british-and-irish-lions-next-year-34401286.html

"Joe Schmidt reveals IRFU contract won't allow him to coach the British and Irish Lions next year"

Good news for Ireland. I don't think his approach is particularly suited to the Lions position, but it would have been a great opportunity for him to strengthen his CV.

scott1974

Sanjuro wrote: »

Good. I'm increasingly feeling the Lions is a massive waste of time.

It's a money spinner and good for the IRFU coffers but I think it's passed it's sell-by date.

mfceiling

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

Good news for Ireland. I don't think his approach is particularly suited to the Lions position, but it would have been a great opportunity for him to strengthen his CV.

I'd say his cv is fairly ok

awec

mfceiling wrote: »

I'd say his cv is fairly ok

In the northern hemisphere it is, but if he has aspirations to manage the All Blacks he'd have to bulk it out a bit.

awec

Sanjuro wrote: »

Good. I'm increasingly feeling the Lions is a massive waste of time.

I like it. I don't think another summer of national team tours would be as interesting.

awec

awec wrote: »

I like it. I don't think another summer of national team tours would be as interesting.

Yeah I agree. It has a novelty factor and It's not something you get overly animated about win or lose.

wp_rathead

I like the tests matches, think the Lions tour is silly with the meaningless warm up games against sides in empty stadiums

I know they need games to prepare but maybe play club teams in Europe before going instead
Lions vs Toulon be a fun game for example

awec

I think the warm up games are beneficial for the host nation, specifically it's clubs. The games usually aren't classics but the clubs must make a few quid having the Lions come play them, and the Lions get to figure out their test 23.

errlloyd

The warm up games are grand. We see stuff we otherwise never get to see.


My big problem with the Lions is people treating the tour like winning is the be all and end all. Ultimately picking the team almost entirely from one nation will always be stronger be than the sum of it's parts. That is a negative externality.

I watch the lions because I might get to see something new, something different. I don't watch it so I can see what Wales would be like with Sexton playing ten!

MJohnston

I'd rather enjoy seeing a 'Tier 2 Lions' vs 6 Nations thing myself (not that this is a likely alternative or anything)

wp_rathead

awec wrote: »

I think the warm up games are beneficial for the host nation, specifically it's clubs. The games usually aren't classics but the clubs must make a few quid having the Lions come play them, and the Lions get to figure out their test 23.

But the stadiums are basically empty - always seems such waste
If there was interest from the club sides it be brilliant - i like the tradition of touring sides playing local sides (ie New Zealand v Munster, Samoa v Connacht etc)

ThisRegard

mfceiling wrote: »

And you know this how?

I wouldn't take much notice of him, he's gone from telling people in After Hours that smoking is the pinnacle of human pleasure before he was asked to move on from that thread, seems he's stumbled in here.

bilston

Deleted User wrote: »

Yeah I agree. It has a novelty factor and It's not something you get overly animated about win or lose.

We get more animated about selection than the result

jm08

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

Good news for Ireland. I don't think his approach is particularly suited to the Lions position, but it would have been a great opportunity for him to strengthen his CV.

No it wouldn't. Anyone heading to New Zealand are on a hiding to nothing. Gatty knows he hasn't a hope of getting a job in New Zealand so doesn't care.

Neil3030

It gives us West Brits a crucial quadrennial outlet to publicly support something with 'British' in the title.



And no, 'The Great British Bake Off' doesn't quite cut it.

CatFromHue

wp_rathead wrote: »

But the stadiums are basically empty - always seems such waste
If there was interest from the club sides it be brilliant - i like the tradition of touring sides playing local sides (ie New Zealand v Munster, Samoa v Connacht etc)

I think this next tour to NZ will be important in how the Lions, well the home country, address the non test games.

If the Super XV teams aren't that arsed about the games against the Lions I can see changes being made for future tours.

hype101

jm08 wrote: »

No it wouldn't. Anyone heading to New Zealand are on a hiding to nothing. Gatty knows he hasn't a hope of getting a job in New Zealand so doesn't care.

I disagree, and will put money on the Lions winning the series as the odds ought to be good.. The generation of ABs just retired were untouchable.. McCaw, Carter, Nonu, C Smith have all retired and SBW and Kaino probably won't be around.. Mentally, there is huge difference taking on the ABs without these guys.. Don't get me wrong they're still the best team in the world but I think the Lions will relish it.

hype101

hype101 wrote: »

I disagree, and will put money on the Lions winning the series as the odds ought to be good.. The generation of ABs just retired were untouchable.. McCaw, Carter, Nonu, C Smith have all retired and SBW and Kaino probably won't be around.. Mentally, there is huge difference taking on the ABs without these guys.. Don't get me wrong they're still the best team in the world but I think the Lions will relish it.

The Lions tend to be weaker than the sum of their parts though.

Mahatma Geansai

Deleted User wrote: »

The Lions tend to be weaker than the sum of their parts though.

Or as we saw during the RWC, the parts in the northern hemisphere just aren't that strong.

MJohnston

Technically, we never actually saw New Zealand play against any of the Lions nations in the RWC.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Quote from Schmidt today saying that players who leave Ireland are not unavailable to Ireland. They just have less access to the players.

Players have to be released for International windows so I assume he's talking about training camps? Or is the Ireland set up involved with players at different times throughout the year in some other capacity?