Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread V

sydthebeat

hype101 wrote: »

I disagree, and will put money on the Lions winning the series as the odds ought to be good.. The generation of ABs just retired were untouchable.. McCaw, Carter, Nonu, C Smith have all retired and SBW and Kaino probably won't be around.. Mentally, there is huge difference taking on the ABs without these guys.. Don't get me wrong they're still the best team in the world but I think the Lions will relish it.

the lions are 7/2 to win the series... ABs 1/6

says enough really

bilston

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Quote from Schmidt today saying that players who leave Ireland are not unavailable to Ireland. They just have less access to the players.

Players have to be released for International windows so I assume he's talking about training camps? Or is the Ireland set up involved with players at different times throughout the year in some other capacity?

There are sporadic training camps throughout the year which players outside the IRFU jurisdiction may not be able to attend. There is also a potential test with NZ in Chicago outside the test window which those players may not be available for. It may depend on what they have on their contract with their club.

b.gud

bilston wrote: »

There are sporadic training camps throughout the year which players outside the IRFU jurisdiction may not be able to attend. There is also a potential test with NZ in Chicago outside the test window which those players may not be available for. It may depend on what they have on their contract with their club.

Schmidt and some of the coaches also occasionally attend provincial training sessions, although that's probably more to identify players who may be worth bringing into the squad, e.g. Ultan Dillane, VDF, Ringrose etc

CatFromHue

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Quote from Schmidt today saying that players who leave Ireland are not unavailable to Ireland. They just have less access to the players.

Players have to be released for International windows so I assume he's talking about training camps? Or is the Ireland set up involved with players at different times throughout the year in some other capacity?

Yeah I don't think there's ever been a rule about not picking guys from abroad, it's just most guys who go abroad wouldn't be picked for Ireland if they stayed so it's kind of grown from that.

Murphy and Sexton never had a problem with being picked.

TOL, Niall Morris, Bob Casey, Caldwell and Roger Wilson did, bit that wasn't to do with them being abroad. During camp other home based but inferior players may have been called up due to injuries but that's usually to do with the guy being called up will only be a tackle bag holder.

CMOTDibbler

b.gud wrote: »

Schmidt and some of the coaches also occasionally attend provincial training sessions, although that's probably more to identify players who may be worth bringing into the squad, e.g. Ultan Dillane, VDF, Ringrose etc

Also just going to matches. He (or any of the other coaches) is unlikely to go to Sarries etc. to have a look at players.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

bilston wrote: »

There are sporadic training camps throughout the year which players outside the IRFU jurisdiction may not be able to attend. There is also a potential test with NZ in Chicago outside the test window which those players may not be available for. It may depend on what they have on their contract with their club.

I guess the possibility of someone not being in a training camp, depending on who they are, almost equates to not being in consideration for the Irish team. Schmidt seems to put a lot of importance on what happens in training so if someone can't be at all the camps and there's another player for the same position that can you'd almost be inclined to forget about the guy that can't come. Obviously if it was someone like Sexton again they're not going to write him off. Someone like Earls though.... There are a fair few alternatives on the wing.

Zzippy

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Quote from Schmidt today saying that players who leave Ireland are not unavailable to Ireland. They just have less access to the players.

Players have to be released for International windows so I assume he's talking about training camps? Or is the Ireland set up involved with players at different times throughout the year in some other capacity?

Yep, like this week for instance. If Madigan was with Bordeaux this season he would be training with them for the week and playing Top14 at the weekend vs Castres. He wouldn't be released to Ireland until after that game.

Also, management have zero control over how many games overseas players play, like they do with domestic players, so there's a fair chance players could be tired by the time they do arrive in camp.

Add to that possibly having to go back and play T14/AP games on off weekends during the 6N, and picking those players becomes even less of an option.

former total

bilston wrote: »

There are sporadic training camps throughout the year which players outside the IRFU jurisdiction may not be able to attend. There is also a potential test with NZ in Chicago outside the test window which those players may not be available for. It may depend on what they have on their contract with their club.

It's worth remembering that the English league agreement specifically prohibits clubs from releasing players outside the official windows; Northampton got hit with a hefty fine for releasing North a couple of seasons ago.

Plus, it's really only the likes of Sexton who can make those demands. Anyone else would likely be told where to go.

CMOTDibbler

former total wrote: »

It's worth remembering that the English league agreement specifically prohibits clubs from releasing players outside the official windows; Northampton got hit with a hefty fine for releasing North a couple of seasons ago.

Plus, it's really only the likes of Sexton who can make those demands. Anyone else would likely be told where to go.

And Sexton didn't have it all his own way either. He had to fly back to Paris a number of times during last year's 6N.

Buer

CatFromHue wrote: »

Yeah I don't think there's ever been a rule about not picking guys from abroad, it's just most guys who go abroad wouldn't be picked for Ireland if they stayed so it's kind of grown from that.

Murphy and Sexton never had a problem with being picked.

TOL, Niall Morris, Bob Casey, Caldwell and Roger Wilson did, bit that wasn't to do with them being abroad. During camp other home based but inferior players may have been called up due to injuries but that's usually to do with the guy being called up will only be a tackle bag holder.

You also have guys like Neil Best (was in the Irish 22 for the 2007 RWC, announced he was moving to Northampton in early 2008 and was never capped again) and Leo Cullen (regularly capped before moving to Leicester and international career put on hold when out of country).

There will be exceptions made for a very select group of players. For the rest, they'll drop down the pecking order or make it a very close call between themselves and a player who may be inferior but can train with the squad more regularly.

b.gud

Murray and Earls sign 3 year IRFU contracts http://www.irishrugby.ie/news/36740.php#.Vqjq4lOyNBc http://www.irishrugby.ie/ireland/36739.php#.Vqjq_lOyNBc

irishbucsfan

clsmooth

Buer wrote: »

You also have guys like Neil Best (was in the Irish 22 for the 2007 RWC, announced he was moving to Northampton in early 2008 and was never capped again) and Leo Cullen (regularly capped before moving to Leicester and international career put on hold when out of country).

There will be exceptions made for a very select group of players. For the rest, they'll drop down the pecking order or make it a very close call between themselves and a player who may be inferior but can train with the squad more regularly.

Re: Neil Best I think you have to bare in mind Ferris and Heaslip came through.

CMOTDibbler

Buer wrote: »

You also have guys like Neil Best (was in the Irish 22 for the 2007 RWC, announced he was moving to Northampton in early 2008 and was never capped again) and Leo Cullen (regularly capped before moving to Leicester and international career put on hold when out of country).

There will be exceptions made for a very select group of players. For the rest, they'll drop down the pecking order or make it a very close call between themselves and a player who may be inferior but can train with the squad more regularly.

I'm not sure that Neil Best or Leo Cullen were anything more than stopgap players anyway. Leo had very few (if any) 6N caps before moving to Leicester and Best was pretty much replaced by Ferris who was a far better player.

CMOTDibbler

b.gud wrote: »

Murray and Earls sign 3 year IRFU contracts http://www.irishrugby.ie/news/36740.php#.Vqjq4lOyNBc http://www.irishrugby.ie/ireland/36739.php#.Vqjq_lOyNBc

There you go. Joe was right.

No need to panic

awec

Glad to see they have got the three years.

jm08

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

I guess the possibility of someone not being in a training camp, depending on who they are, almost equates to not being in consideration for the Irish team. Schmidt seems to put a lot of importance on what happens in training so if someone can't be at all the camps and there's another player for the same position that can you'd almost be inclined to forget about the guy that can't come. Obviously if it was someone like Sexton again they're not going to write him off. Someone like Earls though.... There are a fair few alternatives on the wing.

Not many alternatives who has played in every position from 12 to 15 internationally.

Mahatma Geansai

jm08 wrote: »

Not many alternatives who have excelledhas played in every position from 12 to 15 internationally.

Buer

clsmooth wrote: »

Re: Neil Best I think you have to bare in mind Ferris and Heaslip came through.

In 2009, both of those players were on a Lions tour. We played tests against the USA and Canada with back rows of Muldoon, Ronan and Leamy with Donnacha Ryan covering from the bench. Neil Best played with the Wolfhounds on the same tour. He was pretty much dead to the national team once he moved (not helped by the fact he was a nutjob).

Podge_irl

Wasn't overly fussed about Earls (would have been worse for Munster than Ireland I think) but really great news on Murray. He could have got a fair bloody wedge overseas I would think and is integral to the Ireland team at this point.

swiwi_

Success all round. I'd say the little bit of manoeuvring got that bumped from 2 to 3 years.

A few people need to send apology cards to Nucifora who seems to have come in for a lot of bad press off the back of a heap of pure speculation and rumour.

I'm happy for yis, it's never nice having home talent leave. I know that far more than most.

I'd say Borat has arthritis from all the dancing on this forum down the years...

Utah_Saint

If the IRFU wish to limit the number of NIQ players in the country then they need to enforce the rule of only selecting home based players to represent Ireland.

The IRFU are trying to increase 'native' players playing time by limiting the amount of NIQ players in a squad. Preventing the provinces from signing quality NIQ players obviously limits the performance of the the provinces in the league and euro's.

But allowing the provinces best players to leave the country and still selecting them for Irish duty is a double whammy to the provinces.

e.g. Sexton and Moore can leave Leinster and still be available for selection by Ireland but Leinster cannot go out and sign a quality NIQ replacements to aid their Euro chances

Successful Provinces - Successful Ireland

Mahatma Geansai

Utah_Saint wrote: »

If the IRFU wish to limit the number of NIQ players in the country then they need to enforce the rule of only selecting home based players to represent Ireland.

The IRFU are trying to increase 'native' players playing time by limiting the amount of NIQ players in a squad. Preventing the provinces from signing quality NIQ players obviously limits the performance of the the provinces in the league and euro's.

But allowing the provinces best players to leave the country and still selecting them for Irish duty is a double whamming to the provinces.

e.g. Sexton and Moore can leave Leinster and still be available for selection by Ireland but Leinster cannot go out and sign a quality NIQ replacements to aid their Euro chances

Successful Provinces - Successful Ireland

If we refuse to select foreign-based players, their market value will only go up. The IRFU couldn't afford to keep a Conor Murray who isn't away fro half the season playing international rugby in the country.

Buer

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

I'm not sure that Neil Best or Leo Cullen were anything more than stopgap players anyway. Leo had very few (if any) 6N caps before moving to Leicester and Best was pretty much replaced by Ferris who was a far better player.

Ferris didn' really break into the team until a year after Best left.

Cullen had a few 6N caps. He was a regular enough player on the scene (15 caps in a few years) but was stuck behind DOC, POC and MOK (correctly). Those caps evaporated though when he left.

Utah_Saint

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I'll see your celebration and raise it

Buer

swiwi_ wrote: »

Success all round. I'd say the little bit of manoeuvring got that bumped from 2 to 3 years.

A few people need to send apology cards to Nucifora who seems to have come in for a lot of bad press off the back of a heap of pure speculation and rumour.

Ruaidhri O'Connor has tweeted that it was an improved offer from the IRFU that retained Earls. So seems there was definitely a bump in the terms of the contract and their hand was forced by the leaked information.

Nucifora has delivered and retained two important players to Irish rugby. Credit where it is due as he's playing the game with one arm tied behind his back financially. He was going to get a tonne of stick if either player departed and deserves plaudits when they're retained.

CMOTDibbler

Buer wrote: »

Ferris didn' really break into the team until a year after Best left.

He'd had a few cameos in the year before Best left and was straight into the starting team in the 6N immediately following Best's departure. But he clearly was a far better player and Best was a loose cannon. I kinda liked him, he was completely nuts, but he was our nuts.

Buer wrote: »

Cullen had a few 6N caps. He was a regular enough player on the scene (15 caps in a few years) but was stuck behind DOC, POC and MOK (correctly). Those caps evaporated though when he left.

As far as I can see, Leo only had one stint at the 6N (2003) before he joined Leicester in 2005. He got a good chunk of games (mostly from the bench) in 2002/03 but after that only one or two per year. I don't think it was completely down to him leaving as there wasn't a year where he didn't get a cap of some sort. Just better players ahead of him I would suggest.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

I know ultimately what's best for Ireland is what counts but I'm not a fan of players seemingly using offers from England/France to get better deals. I know you could argue that the IRFU should be offering them sufficient deals before there's rumblings of moves but I don't like the idea of them being held to ransom.
Obviously we don't know the exact amounts players are being offered so it's possible the IRFU are being scabby and I know the 2 year vs 3 year contract is an issue, but there just seems to be an awful lot of it happening lately.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Double post.

Buer

It has been happening for a lot longer than just recently. BOD attended a game in Biarritz a decade ago. Donnacha Ryan was given a tour of the training facilities at a T14 team a couple of years ago. ROG met the president of Stade Francais for dinner in Paris back in the day.

It's all part of the game. Players use whatever leverage they can as do their agents.

Zzippy

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

I know ultimately what's best for Ireland is what counts but I'm not a fan of players seemingly using offers from England/France to get better deals. I know you could argue that the IRFU should be offering them sufficient deals before there's rumblings of moves but I don't like the idea of them being held to ransom.
Obviously we don't know the exact amounts players are being offered so it's possible the IRFU are being scabby and I know the 2 year vs 3 year contract is an issue, but there just seems to be an awful lot of it happening lately.

It's been happening for years! BOD, Heaslip, SOB. ROG even "had an offer" from the Dolphins!

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

jm08 wrote: »

Not many alternatives who has played in every position from 12 to 15 internationally.

Yeah_Right

If you're using Cullen as proof that when players go overseas they don't get selected for Ireland any more, you've lost the argument. If Cullen was a test regular then your pack was in trouble. He was a battler, a journeyman, the same as Mick O'Driscoll. They would give you a solid 8 out of 10 performance week in, week out at club level. A solid effort in tests if they were called up due to injury but genuine test level packs would show them up.

jm08

swiwi_ wrote: »

Success all round. I'd say the little bit of manoeuvring got that bumped from 2 to 3 years.

A few people need to send apology cards to Nucifora who seems to have come in for a lot of bad press off the back of a heap of pure speculation and rumour.

I'm happy for yis, it's never nice having home talent leave. I know that far more than most.

I'd say Borat has arthritis from all the dancing on this forum down the years...

Nucifora was back in Australia (got back last weekend apparently) at the time of year when contract negotiations are going on.

One of the criticisms Sexton had of the IRFU contract negotiations (and he was chairman of the Players Union) was how late and delayed contract negotiations were. They all said they wanted them sorted around November, so they could relax about it.

Lets not forget, there was a mess made of Marty Moore's contract, so I'm not sure what we should be apologising to Nucifora for. The 3 years contract look to have been dragged out of him.

jm08

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Are you sure its not your own bait you are smelling You are always banging on about how you don't rate Earls.

Zzippy

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

jm08 wrote: »

Are you sure its not your own bait you are smelling You are always banging on about how you don't rate Earls.

This stops here, or the both of you can take a hike.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Buer wrote: »

It has been happening for a lot longer than just recently. BOD attended a game in Biarritz a decade ago. Donnacha Ryan was given a tour of the training facilities at a T14 team a couple of years ago. ROG met the president of Stade Francais for dinner in Paris back in the day.

It's all part of the game. Players use whatever leverage they can as do their agents.

Zzippy wrote: »

It's been happening for years! BOD, Heaslip, SOB. ROG even "had an offer" from the Dolphins!

Fair enough. But you could argue that all those player mentioned are/were integral to their provinces and Ireland. Not that that justifies it.
Madigan, Moore, Zebo even Earls are not, in my opinion irreplaceable in the Irish set up, so it seems a bit cheeky if that's what they've been doing. Just my opinion, before anyone tries to kill me.

Utah_Saint

Utah_Saint wrote: »

If the IRFU wish to limit the number of NIQ players in the country then they need to enforce the rule of only selecting home based players to represent Ireland.

The IRFU are trying to increase 'native' players playing time by limiting the amount of NIQ players in a squad. Preventing the provinces from signing quality NIQ players obviously limits the performance of the the provinces in the league and euro's.

But allowing the provinces best players to leave the country and still selecting them for Irish duty is a double whammy to the provinces.

e.g. Sexton and Moore can leave Leinster and still be available for selection by Ireland but Leinster cannot go out and sign a quality NIQ replacements to aid their Euro chances

Successful Provinces - Successful Ireland

I don't think there is direct correlation here. If our somewhat older players move abroad, this frees up space for younger talent to be blooded in the rabo and champions cup.

Picking only players at home massively restricts our ability to develop proper back-ups to key positions. Four professional sides is not enough to feed Ireland. Madigan not getting full reign at 10 is one example. Sexton being stuck behind Contempomi is another.

Weaker Developing Provinces - Successful Ireland

Buer

Yeah_Right wrote: »

If you're using Cullen as proof that when players go overseas they don't get selected for Ireland any more, you've lost the argument. If Cullen was a test regular then your pack was in trouble. He was a battler, a journeyman, the same as Mick O'Driscoll. They would give you a solid 8 out of 10 performance week in, week out at club level. A solid effort in tests if they were called up due to injury but genuine test level packs would show them up.

That's your opinion and that is fine but the standard of the player or their performances in green is erroneous in the argument.

If the player was regularly capped in the seasons prior to departing, isn't capped when they are playing outside of the country and then is capped regularly once more after they return, it's a clear indication that the departure has been a major impact on their international involvement.

jm08

Buer wrote: »

That's your opinion and that is fine but the standard of the player or their performances in green is erroneous in the argument.

If the player was regularly capped in the seasons prior to departing, isn't capped when they are playing outside of the country and then is capped regularly once more after they return, it's a clear indication that the departure has been a major impact on their international involvement.

Leo only had a few starts in Leicester's Heineken Cup team - he was on the bench for the HCup final v. Wasps. 7 starts x 2 seasons and they won it won in one of those seasons.

CMOTDibbler

jm08 wrote: »

Leo only had a few starts in Leicester's Heineken Cup team - he was on the bench for the HCup final v. Wasps. 7 starts x 2 seasons and they won it won in one of those seasons.

Leo's a bad example. I've already pointed this out. He had a rash of caps in one season (02/03) followed by one or two caps per year thereafter up until 09/10 (I think).

He was with Leicester from 2005 until 2007.

The thing is that we really don't have a policy. We don't have enough players to be able to afford one. It's easier for NZ or England or France.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Based on Fantasy Rugger's scoring system this is the current "in form" Irish team.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

^ They're up and running for the 6 Nations again if anyone's interested. Hopefully less traffic than during the WC so it might run a bit smoother. I'll set up a league later if anyone wants to join.

CMOTDibbler

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Based on Fantasy Rugger's scoring system this is the current "in form" Irish team.

Madigan? :eek:

Statistics and lies :pac:

errlloyd

I'll do Fantasy Rugger again, I'll probably hedge my bets and do the Irish Times as well though. Fantasy Rugger wasn't that accurate during the WC.

fitz

irishbucsfan wrote: »

FIFA tried to bring that in in soccer (except with 6 players I believe) and were shot down by the EU. I don't know enough about the law to say if the IRFU get away with it because the players are employed by the NGB or just because they're small enough to escape attention, but it couldn't be expanded to France or England.

Forgot about that...prime example of the law being an ass.
There should be provision for measures that encourage development of national representative teams.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Madigan? :eek:

Statistics and lies :pac:

I guess it averages out over number of games played. Play one great match and never play again and you're ahead of someone playing consistently well over 12 or however many games.

I'm sure the #8 and wings/FB choices will be of interest to some too

awec

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

I guess it averages out over number of games played. Play one great match and never play again and you're ahead of someone playing consistently well over 12 or however many games.

I'm sure the #8 and wings/FB choices will be of interest to some too

It is most likely his goal kicking.

CMOTDibbler

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

I guess it averages out over number of games played. Play one great match and never play again and you're ahead of someone playing consistently well over 12 or however many games.

I'm sure the #8 and wings/FB choices will be of interest to some too

Yep, they didn't escape my notice. We know that they're all based on the game stats like carries and metres run and tackles etc. It's also not the full picture of course, so nothing to get excited about.

Is that a miserly 1.9 that RK got? I wonder what the other options scored

former total

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Madigan? :eek:

Statistics and lies :pac:

He's playing very well. Not sure why people are so reluctant to see this.