Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread V

Yeah_Right

Buer wrote: »

That's your opinion and that is fine but the standard of the player or their performances in green is erroneous in the argument.

If the player was regularly capped in the seasons prior to departing, isn't capped when they are playing outside of the country and then is capped regularly once more after they return, it's a clear indication that the departure has been a major impact on their international involvement.

My point is that Cullen is a bad example as some others have pointed out. He got a few caps, went overseas (doesn't get selected), comes back to Ireland and gets a few caps. He was always behind POC, DOC and MOK.

Reddan is possibly a good example of a top class Irish player being ignored when he was overseas.

CMOTDibbler

former total wrote: »

He's playing very well. Not sure why people are so reluctant to see this.

At 10? For Leinster or for Ireland?

b.gud

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Yep, they didn't escape my notice. We know that they're all based on the game stats like carries and metres run and tackles etc. It's also not the full picture of course, so nothing to get excited about.

Is that a miserly 1.9 that RK got? I wonder what the other options scored

They probably only got scores for players who are in the squad, so TOH and Conway wouldn't be considered. Add to that guys like Payne and Zebo who played games at FB but are listed in other position, e.g. centre and wing, means that Kearney was probably the only FB that was available.

Edit not saying that means that Kearney shouldn't be the FB just that it prob explains the reason he's there despite a seemingly low score

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

former total wrote: »

He's playing very well. Not sure why people are so reluctant to see this.

Difficult to see it when he hardly ever plays anymore.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Is that a miserly 1.9 that RK got? I wonder what the other options scored

Not sure but they also did a Pro 12 team of the season, so far, based on players that are in 6 Nations squads and an Italian is the highest scoring FB.



Would be interesting to see what Payne's score is. They'll have him down as a centre but he probably has a better score than Rob K.

CatFromHue

Buer wrote: »

In 2009, both of those players were on a Lions tour. We played tests against the USA and Canada with back rows of Muldoon, Ronan and Leamy with Donnacha Ryan covering from the bench. Neil Best played with the Wolfhounds on the same tour. He was pretty much dead to the national team once he moved (not helped by the fact he was a nutjob).

While we'll never know exactly I think Best's days were numbered while he was still in Ireland. Just had a flick back through the team sheets I don't think he made any match day squads for the 08 6N, he was still with Ulster then, and was only a sub during the 07 RWC.

I think he would have fallen into the category of positive discrimination for home based players where if you're not in the first 23 and you're not better than the home based players below that then you won't get in.

Buer

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Leo's a bad example. I've already pointed this out. He had a rash of caps in one season (02/03) followed by one or two caps per year thereafter up until 09/10 (I think).

Quite the opposite, the bulk of his 32 caps came across a few seasons and were interrupted by injury (for the majority of the 2003/04 season) and his time spent in England. 4 years account for 26 of his caps.

You're right though, we don't have a policy nor can we afford one. It's more of a broad guideline where a player needs to be indispensable to the team to be selected in the side whilst abroad.

Cullen was never at that level but he was comfortably good enough to be picking up caps ahead of the likes of Trevor Hogan and Matt McCullough who were earning caps whilst he was away.

Buer

CatFromHue wrote: »

While we'll never know exactly I think Best's days were numbered while he was still in Ireland. Just had a flick back through the team sheets I don't think he made any match day squads for the 08 6N, he was still with Ulster then, and was only a sub during the 07 RWC.

I think he would have fallen into the category of positive discrimination for home based players where if you're not in the first 23 and you're not better than the home based players below that then you won't get in.

He announced his departure on opening weekend of the 2008 6N which you'd assume had been on the cards for a bit by then.

I think you're right though, his card was marked. The guy had serious disciplinary issues and was someone we didn't need despite his clear talent.

Buer

Yeah_Right wrote: »

My point is that Cullen is a bad example as some others have pointed out. He got a few caps, went overseas (doesn't get selected), comes back to Ireland and gets a few caps. He was always behind POC, DOC and MOK.

Reddan is possibly a good example of a top class Irish player being ignored when he was overseas.

I'm never questioning whether he should be ahead of those guys though nor is there any debate about quality or being top class, as you put it.

Of course he shouldn't be selected ahead of MOK, POC and DOC. They were all world class at their peak. I'm saying he'd clearly have been selected for more caps if he had stayed, however, given that there were far inferior players chosen.

The above 3 aren't selected for every game and get injured at times. We had Matt McCullough benching against the All Blacks. We had Trevor Hogan playing in the Six Nations. Cullen would wipe the floor with both as a player just as Neil Best was far superior to the likes of Niall Ronan.

I actually disagree on Reddan being a good example. He left Ireland with a very low profile and not even on the radar of the national side, came good at Wasps and broke into the Irish team. He was selected for a RWC (where he finished as first choice) and was first choice in the 2008 6N all whilst playing abroad. He earned 15 caps over his final two years at Wasps despite TOL (chosen by the Lions), Stringer and Boss all gaining caps through that period. He was handed his Irish debut 5 months after making his Wasps debut so would be an example of the opposite, if anything, to my mind.

stephen_n

I would have thought Bob Casey would have been a better example than Cullen.

Buer

stephen_n wrote: »

I would have thought Bob Casey would have been a better example than Cullen.

Yup, definitely an example who should have had more of a look in. I didn't mention him as Cullen is in the unique position of playing in Ireland and getting capped, leaving and not getting capped and returning and being capped again which underlines the concept that playing in Ireland has a large bearing on being selected.

Yeah_Right

Buer wrote: »

We had Matt McCullough benching against the All Blacks. We had Trevor Hogan playing in the Six Nations. Cullen would wipe the floor with both as a player just as Neil Best was far superior to the likes of Niall Ronan.

I actually disagree on Reddan being a good example. He left Ireland with a very low profile and not even on the radar of the national side, came good at Wasps and broke into the Irish team. He was selected for a RWC (where he finished as first choice) and was first choice in the 2008 6N all whilst playing abroad. He earned 15 caps over his final two years at Wasps despite TOL (chosen by the Lions), Stringer and Boss all gaining caps through that period.

I'll take your word on those locks. Never heard of them. From what I've seen of Cullen, he was never a test lock but a fantastic club player. Much like Jono Gibbes.

I stand corrected on Reddan. I knew he left Ireland as a "nobody" and made his name at Wasps. I just thought he was only ever a fringe selection for Ireland while at Wasps and he was a fantastic player for them.

mfceiling

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Based on Fantasy Rugger's scoring system this is the current "in form" Irish team.

Big Stu with over a 10 point average and he played something like 17 games in a row!! Mad!!

stephen_n

Buer wrote: »

Yup, definitely an example who should have had more of a look in. I didn't mention him as Cullen is in the unique position of playing in Ireland and getting capped, leaving and not getting capped and returning and being capped again which underlines the concept that playing in Ireland has a large bearing on being selected.

If you are peripheral, it had no impact on Bowe or Sextons involvement.

Reddan was another who was affected by it though. (see your earlier post on him) I wouldn't totally agree, I think had he stayed in Ireland he would have got more caps as we are never exactly overflowing with scrum halves.

CMOTDibbler

Buer wrote: »

Yup, definitely an example who should have had more of a look in. I didn't mention him as Cullen is in the unique position of playing in Ireland and getting capped, leaving and not getting capped and returning and being capped again which underlines the concept that playing in Ireland has a large bearing on being selected.

Except Leo has an unbroken line of caps right through his time at Leicester. He had already lost out before he left.

Buer

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Except Leo has an unbroken line of caps right through his time at Leicester. He had already lost out before he left.

He started both tests in the 2005 summer tour of Japan, weeks before going to Leicester.

Bazzo

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

I guess it averages out over number of games played. Play one great match and never play again and you're ahead of someone playing consistently well over 12 or however many games.

I'm sure the #8 and wings/FB choices will be of interest to some too

Definitely a bit odd. Robbie has only played 4 or 5 games and 2 of them at full back. Obviously he'd be my choice 13 anyway but I'd have thought Marshall would be outscoring him on a purely statistical point of view.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Bazzo wrote: »

Definitely a bit odd. Robbie has only played 4 or 5 games and 2 of them at full back. Obviously he'd be my choice 13 anyway but I'd have thought Marshall would be outscoring him on a purely statistical point of view.

I remember during the WC Quade Cooper was one of the highest scoring players for ages because he played against Uruguay and then didn't play again. It's not a great system for actually comparing players.

aimee1

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

^ They're up and running for the 6 Nations again if anyone's interested. Hopefully less traffic than during the WC so it might run a bit smoother. I'll set up a league later if anyone wants to join.

Your title defence up and running.....

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

aimee1 wrote: »

Your title defence up and running.....

I never got my prize for topping the Impact Gum shield league. I'm tempted to write a letter of complaint.

CMOTDibbler

Buer wrote: »

He started both tests in the 2005 summer tour of Japan, weeks before going to Leicester.

And the previous season he had one cap. The following season he also had 1 cap and the same the next. Strangely he was back in Leinster for two full seasons without a single cap.

As I said Leo is not a good example. Bob Casey or Trevor Brennan might be better ones. Eoin Reddan is the antithesis: He got his first cap just after he left.

aimee1

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

I never got my prize for topping the Impact Gum shield league. I'm tempted to write a letter of complaint.

just tried to pick a team and hit autofill and it says insufficient funds. Not a great sign of things to come

aimee1

aimee1 wrote: »

just tried to pick a team and hit autofill and it says insufficient funds. Not a great sign of things to come

I'm going to focus on the Irish Times one to be honest, fantasy rugger was a clusterf**k all World Cup.

b.gud

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I'm going to focus on the Irish Times one to be honest, fantasy rugger was a clusterf**k all World Cup.

ESPN looks pretty good not quite as complex as fantasyrugger but way better than the Irish times

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

b.gud wrote: »

ESPN looks pretty good not quite as complex as fantasyrugger but way better than the Irish times

I did the ESPN one too during the WC but I don't think it had a salary cap which made it a bit too easy.

They don't seem to have Trimble listed either? Did I miss something?

phog

awec wrote: »

Glad to see they have got the three years.

It was rumoured that Earls only had an offer of two years from the IRFU up to Rúaidhrí O'Connor breaking the story. Thankfully, the IRFU had a news conference schedule for today so they were under a bit of pressure too to avoid questions about an exodus from Irish Rugby.

Being able to announce contract renewals for two high profile players was a good bit of business by them.

If the IRFU want to keep their best players at home then they really need to be looking at the lenght of the contract as much as the financial side of it. Quinny was saying the other night that two years is simply too short.

former total

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

And the previous season he had one cap. The following season he also had 1 cap and the same the next. Strangely he was back in Leinster for two full seasons without a single cap.

As I said Leo is not a good example. Bob Casey or Trevor Brennan might be better ones. Eoin Reddan is the antithesis: He got his first cap just after he left.

No, Reddan is the epitome of the rule. He was playing great rugby in England and he was completely ignored by Ireland. He was phenomenal in Wasps' HC winning season in 07 but was overlooked in favour of Stringer and Boss until eventually Eddie had no choice but to play him.

And then Deccie arrived and he was back out in the cold, until he moved home.

So yeah, he personifies the rule/not rule that you might still be picked but it's waaaay less likely.

awec

phog wrote: »

It was rumoured that Earls only had an offer of two years from the IRFU up to Rúaidhrí O'Connor breaking the story. Thankfully, the IRFU had a news conference schedule for today so they were under a bit of pressure too to avoid questions about an exodus from Irish Rugby.

Being able to announce contract renewals for two high profile players was a good bit of business by them.

If the IRFU want to keep their best players at home then they really need to be looking at the lenght of the contract as much as the financial side of it. Quinny was saying the other night that two years is simply too short.

IRFU can't have their cake and eat it.

They can't offer lower salaries and shorter contracts. Just won't work like that any more.

phog

awec wrote: »

IRFU can't have their cake and eat it.

They can't offer lower salaries and shorter contracts. Just won't work like that any more.

Nearly every player that woukd be first choice in the four provinces would earn more by going abroad, the IRFU cannot compete with the salaries being offered in England and France. Some players will remain at home for family or business reasons or maybe to play for their country but the rest need to be incentivised to stay at home. Listening to former players they have the lenght of a contract is as important as the salary. It's the security they need as much as a high salary.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Set up the Fantasy Rugger league there if anyone wants to join. I know there were a lot of problems during the WC and people gave up so I won't be offended if nobody joins

Thread for it here

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

double post

b.gud

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

I did the ESPN one too during the WC but I don't think it had a salary cap which made it a bit too easy.

They don't seem to have Trimble listed either? Did I miss something?

True but at least it's reliable. Also the salary cap is a bit of a joke I filled out the best possible team and still had like 300k left for pad out the subs bench so it doesn't make much of a difference.

Was Trimble not on ESPN or fantasyrugger? I know he def wasn't on fantasyrugger but hadn't checked ESPN

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

b.gud wrote: »

Was Trimble not on ESPN or fantasyrugger? I know he def wasn't on fantasyrugger but hadn't checked ESPN

Fantasy Rugger. They have Marvin O'Connor in the French team, he was only called up a few days ago so seems odd they don't have Trimble.

b.gud

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Fantasy Rugger. They have Marvin O'Connor in the French team, he was only called up a few days ago so seems odd they don't have Trimble.

These are the things that don't fill me with confidence that it'll be much better than it was at the rwc

molloyjh

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Difficult to see it when he hardly ever plays anymore.

Exactly. In the last 2 months he's played at 2 full games at 10. Against Ulster he started at 12 and played 15 mins at 10 at the end of the match and was woeful. He had a handful of minutes here and there plus 40 at 12 against Toulon until getting the 80 against Munster and then Bath at 10. He played well against Bath but was only so-so against Munster. He didn't do anything particularly special that day at all other than some good goal kicking. To say he's been playing well is quite a serious stretch.

bilston

Interview with Les Kiss on the BBC website.

A few points from it

1) He expects Henshaw and Payne to start in the ce tre next week

2) He was under no direction where to play Payne and played him at 15 because it was best for the team, but will play him at 13 as and when too.

3) Olding starts this weekend

4) Olding is the most exciting young talent he has seen in Ireland

5) Ulster have a couple of signings to announce that will "excite" people, although I think one of those is Piutau.

6) Ulster have retained all the players they wanted to, but where under pressure from "across the ditch"...England..

Put this on this thread because I think it is relevant here as much as the Ulster one due the midfield discussion and contract situation.

Scythica

I'm not sure why (I'm guessing they changed their URLs at one point) but if you click this for the 42:

http://www.the42.ie/rugby/news/

It comes up with the tales and tragedies of 2011, I got very confused when it mentions Bowe and Ospreys and Heaslip missing the 6 nations...

Scythica

DP

The Pheasant2

Have it from a reliable source in camp that Payne has only been training at centre so it looks like Henshaw Payne is gonna be the axis

stephen_n

Does McCloskey cover any other positions? Can't see him benching if Payne & Henshaw start.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

stephen_n wrote: »

Does McCloskey cover any other positions? Can't see him benching if Payne & Henshaw start.

I'm fairly sure I saw him involved in a scrum once when Ulster had someone binned or injured.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

I'm fairly sure I saw him involved in a scrum once when Ulster had someone binned or injured.

Sure sign of a bit of a beasty.

awec

stephen_n wrote: »

Does McCloskey cover any other positions? Can't see him benching if Payne & Henshaw start.

No. McCloskey is a 12 or nothing. He either starts or isn't involved.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

I'm fairly sure I saw him involved in a scrum once when Ulster had someone binned or injured.

Yea, he will join the back row for scrums if we need him to if we have a man binned.


He was actually a scrum half before moving to 12.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

awec wrote: »

No. McCloskey is a 12 or nothing. He either starts or isn't involved.

As much as I'd love to see him involved I think this will be the case.

Chances are the backs on the bench will be Reddan, Jackson/Madigan and then whichever one of Fitzgerlad/Earls aren't in the starting 15.
Maybe if there was some kind of doubt over Henshaw's fitness there's a small chance McCloskey might be on the bench, assuming Madigan and his versatility are there too.

Doubt it though.

Not sure what order the games are in this year but unless we have a terrible first two games and are out of contention quite early on I don't think we'll see much change to what we had last year.

Clearlier

bilston wrote: »

Interview with Les Kiss on the BBC website.



3) Olding starts this weekend

That's great news. If he can get an injury free run then the only question will be which of Marshall, Payne and McCloskey loses out in the Ulster back line. A great talent but I think that his injury record may even be worse than Luke's which is a hell of a feat!

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Clearlier wrote: »

That's great news. If he can get an injury free run then the only question will be which of Marshall, Payne and McCloskey loses out in the Ulster back line. A great talent but I think that his injury record may even be worse than Luke's which is a hell of a feat!

Is everyone other than McCloskey a 13?

Scythica

Yes although...

Payne is a 15

Olding can be whatever you want. Madigan 2.0 new and improved I'm expecting

Cave is a 13 who plays 12 a lot

Marshall is a 12 who plays 13 a lot

Sam Arnold is a 12 too but plays wherever he can

Easy!

Hagz

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fEaBO-r7Io

awec

Scythica wrote: »

Yes although...

Payne is a 15

Olding can be whatever you want. Madigan 2.0 new and improved I'm expecting

Cave is a 13 who plays 12 a lot

Marshall is a 12 who plays 13 a lot

Sam Arnold is a 12 too but plays wherever he can

Easy!

Marshall is a 13.

PTH2009

http://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/six-nations/2016/0128/763542-joe-schmidt/

see im not the only pesamist around.