Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread V

Blackclaret

aimee1 wrote: »

Civil Joe wrote: »

Payne should be 15. R Kearney has done v little in the past season and a half

won a 6n, played in a RWC and part of a Leinster side who took Toulon all the way to extra time in ERCC semi final. Hardly nothing

Add your reply here.

Sorry man, watching RK over the last six weeks or so has been torture, how often does he have to fall over twenty feet from a try saving tackle before the penny finally drops, he was never blessed with eye watering speed and now has got slower, the only thing I can say in his favour is Zebo is worse again, seems completely disinterested.

.ak

vienne86 wrote: »

Only just read about Luke getting injured yeserday. Just when he seemed to be putting together a good run injury free. Hope it isn't serious.

Rotten luck as usual. Any idea of what the injury is?

aimee1

.ak wrote: »

Rotten luck as usual. Any idea of what the injury is?

twisted his knee, so could be anything from minor to major. Probably wont know more until monday according to radio this morning when there will be a squad update

Blackclaret

Blackclaret wrote: »

watching RK over the last six weeks or so has been torture, how often does he have to fall over twenty feet from a try saving tackle before the penny finally drops

He's played 3 games in the last 6 weeks. Two of those games there were no tries scored against us, and the other game against Wasps that had a mix of penalty tries, breakaway tries and one from Daly where Kearney and Kirchner should have done better.

I appreciate you don't rate RK, but at least have accurate criticism or it's hard to take your argument seriously.

aimee1

aimee1 wrote: »

twisted his knee, so could be anything from minor to major. Probably wont know more until monday according to radio this morning when there will be a squad update

I read he was helped from the field so that doesn't sound good honestly.

aimee1

Deleted User wrote: »

I read he was helped from the field so that doesn't sound good honestly.

knee twist is painful, so weight off it is standard.

Civil Joe

aimee1 wrote: »

won a 6n, played in a RWC and part of a Leinster side who took Toulon all the way to extra time in ERCC semi final. Hardly nothing

You're covering up his no shows by referencing the team performance. He's a passager at best these days. A player with a great future behind him.

aimee1

Civil Joe wrote: »

You're covering up his no shows by referencing the team performance. He's a passager at best these days. A player with a great future behind him.

no shows? laughable stuff really.

Civil Joe

aimee1 wrote: »

no shows? laughable stuff really.

He has scored about 2 trys for Ireland in the last three seasons against top tier opposition despite being an every present. He presents zero attacking threat. Yeah I guess it is laughable.

aimee1

Civil Joe wrote: »

He has scored about 2 trys for Ireland in the last three seasons against top tier opposition despite being an every present. He presents zero attacking threat. Yeah I guess it is laughable.

try scoring means nothing. Zero. We won two 6n in a row because of our defence. Enough said.

Civil Joe

aimee1 wrote: »

try scoring means nothing. Zero. We won two 6n in a row because of our defence. Enough said.

Try scoring means nothing ? Wow that's a first!

irishbucsfan

Civil Joe wrote: »

Try scoring means nothing ? Wow that's a first!

Plenty of great full backs were not known for their try scoring, Kearney is another. Leigh Halfpenny and him have similar try scoring records. Noone would call Shaun Payne a no-show, would they?

Civil Joe

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Plenty of great full backs were not known for their try scoring, Kearney is another. Leigh Halfpenny and him have similar try scoring records. Noone would call Shaun Payne a no-show, would they?

Kearney offers nothing now. Zero. Zilch. He just a pretty face that some fanbois and fangurls can't let go.

aimee1

Civil Joe wrote: »

Try scoring means nothing ? Wow that's a first!

How many tries have the other backs scored? A player not scoring tries doesnt equate to the player offering nothing. The RK bashing is boring at this stage.

Zebo scored none in four games last year in the 6n. Does that make him a bad player?

irishbucsfan

Civil Joe wrote: »

Kearney offers nothing now. Zero. Zilch. He just a pretty face that some fanbois and fangurls can't let go.

One of the best players in Europe under a high ball, perfect positional play, consistently finds 50 yards out of hand, and also a powerful runner.

I'm afraid just because you don't like him for whatever personal reason doesn't change the fact he's an excellent player.

Civil Joe

irishbucsfan wrote: »

One of the best players in Europe under a high ball, perfect positional play, consistently finds 50 yards out of hand, and also a powerful runner.

I'm afraid just because you don't like him for whatever personal reason doesn't change the fact he's an excellent player.

What you say makes perfect sense.......5 years ago.

irishbucsfan

Civil Joe wrote: »

What you say makes perfect sense.......5 years ago.

He was European player of the year 3 years ago, and he still possesses all those skills today.

The Rape of Lucretia

Civil Joe wrote: »

Try scoring means nothing ? Wow that's a first!

Yes, even less than nothing - absolutely nothing.

Its not quite a first but it is modern rugby.

Success in rugby today is not achieved through scoring tries. They are a part of it, a small one, and of those, its really through the forwards that you try to engineer them. Backs can score them through caught contestibles, cross field kicks, or hail Marys. And at times by mopping up clear overlaps or player mismatches, but those tries are really down to the groundwork successfully carried out by the pack.

Games are won through defence, playing the game in the opposition half, retaining control of the ball - and only letting the opposition have it when you are setup to pressurise him and make sure he can get no where with it, forcing them into mistakes, and having an 80%+ goal kicker (85% and you can win stuff, 90%+ is the ideal).

Focusing on tries as any useful strategy or indicator is as useful as worrying about how you are going to win more strikes against the head - a passé game from the distant past.

aimee1

http://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/six-nations/2016/0130/764098-philip-browne/

Teferi

irishbucsfan wrote: »

One of the best players in Europe under a high ball, perfect positional play, consistently finds 50 yards out of hand, and also a powerful runner.

I agree with everything but the last bit. He may have the ability to run powerfully but he doesn't utilise it at all at international level. He runs right up the line, faffs about a bit doing his dance before inevitably getting tackled.

aimee1

Teferi wrote: »

I agree with everything but the last bit. He may have the ability to run powerfully but he doesn't utilise it at all at international level. He runs right up the line, faffs about a bit doing his dance before inevitably getting tackled.

usually tackled were there is 3-4-5 of his forwards to ensure the ball is secured so Ireland can look to gain territory and not cough up possession. Its part of the plan

Teferi

aimee1 wrote: »

usually tackled were there is 3-4-5 of his forwards to ensure the ball is secured so Ireland can look to gain territory and not cough up possession. Its part of the plan

Meh, you can run powerfully into a position where there is support. Sometimes you just need to drop your shoulder and let the opposition know that if they want to tackle you then they are going to pay for it. He rarely does this over the last number of seasons.

aimee1

Teferi wrote: »

Meh, you can run powerfully into a position where there is support. Sometimes you just need to drop your shoulder and let the opposition know that if they want to tackle you then they are going to pay for it. He rarely does this over the last number of seasons.

or maybe you take the tackle on your own terms and protect the ball.

irishbucsfan

Teferi wrote: »

Meh, you can run powerfully into a position where there is support. Sometimes you just need to drop your shoulder and let the opposition know that if they want to tackle you then they are going to pay for it. He rarely does this over the last number of seasons.

Schmidt uses Kearney (and also Nacewa) as an example of exactly how it should be done when coaching other sides.

If your pack are in front of you and you put your shoulder through an opponent like that then you're greatly increases your chances of giving up possession remember. When he takes the ball in the line in normal attacking play he has no problem doing it.

Teferi

aimee1 wrote: »

or maybe you take the tackle on your own terms and protect the ball.

Dropping your shoulder isn't taking the tackle on your own terms?

aimee1

Teferi wrote: »

Dropping your shoulder isn't taking the tackle on your own terms?

you are looking for RK to run over people, to run into someone as hard as possible, that increases the chance of the ball being spilled. Thats not what he is expected to do when running the ball back after a kick from the opposition. His remit in those situations is to seek to the best support option to ensure ireland retain possession. Quite often that involves not going to contact at full speed but at the last few strides to slow down to minimise the risk. Thats my reading of it anyway

Teferi

aimee1 wrote: »

you are looking for RK to run over people, to run into someone as hard as possible, that increases the chance of the ball being spilled. Thats not what he is expected to do when running the ball back after a kick from the opposition. His remit in those situations is to seek to the best support option to ensure ireland retain possession. Quite often that involves not going to contact at full speed but at the last few strides to slow down to minimise the risk. Thats my reading of it anyway

If you read what I said I am not advocating he do it everytime.

aimee1

Teferi wrote: »

If you read what I said I am not advocating he do it everytime.

and his coach doesnt want him to do it, He wants to gain ground and retain possession. Its low risk gameplan but it delivered two 6n titles. England scored over twice as many tries last year as Ireland. Won nothing. If Ireland won a 6n scoring no tries its still a 6n title.

Buer

Interesting comments from BOD on Twitter:

Brian O'Driscoll ✔ @BrianODriscoll
@Chasingsows13 I know he's playing Payne at 13 so it doesn't really matter what the country thinks.

And when asked on McCloskey:

Brian O'Driscoll ✔ @BrianODriscoll
@Chasingsows13 he won't be. Henshaw & Payne to start. He'll probably get capped at some stage over the 8 weeks.

irishbucsfan

BOD IS IN ON THE CONSPIRACY MAN

bilston

Buer wrote: »

Interesting comments from BOD on Twitter:

Brian O'Driscoll ✔ @BrianODriscoll
@Chasingsows13 I know he's playing Payne at 13 so it doesn't really matter what the country thinks.

And when asked on McCloskey:

Brian O'Driscoll ✔ @BrianODriscoll
@Chasingsows13 he won't be. Henshaw & Payne to start. He'll probably get capped at some stage over the 8 weeks.

I don't think anyone seriously thinks Payne won't start beside Henshaw. However I'm not sure how McCloskey will get capped unless there is an injury. McCloskey isn't really a great bench option and I don't think Joe is likely to rotate his centres unless we are dead and buried in the competition after Round 3 (which is certainly possible). I think he may be waiting until SA to be honest before he gets capped.

awec

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Schmidt uses Kearney (and also Nacewa) as an example of exactly how it should be done when coaching other sides.

If your pack are in front of you and you put your shoulder through an opponent like that then you're greatly increases your chances of giving up possession remember. When he takes the ball in the line in normal attacking play he has no problem doing it.

:pac: :pac:

This is right up there with the same crap that was spouted that saw Darren Cave was roundly criticised for daring to make a line break during the world cup. Line breaks are too risky!

"Schmidt does what all teams should do - prevent your full back from attacking with the ball because breaking the line is too risky".

Joe Schmidt, the only coach in world rugby who knows how a full back is supposed to play.


Sometimes I think people on here are prone to looking at things backwards. They look at what's on the pitch and then try and figure out some reason as to why this is part of the Schmidt master-plan, rather than questioning the plan itself or questioning whether or not the player himself just doesn't have certain weapons in his arsenal.

irishbucsfan

awec wrote: »

:pac: :pac:

This is right up there with the same crap that was spouted that saw Darren Cave was roundly criticised for daring to make a line break during the world cup. Line breaks are too risky!

"Schmidt does what all teams should do - prevent your full back from attacking with the ball because breaking the line is too risky".

Joe Schmidt, the only coach in world rugby who knows how a full back is supposed to play.


Sometimes I think people on here are prone to looking at things backwards. They look at what's on the pitch and then try and figure out some reason as to why this is part of the Schmidt master-plan, rather than questioning the plan itself or questioning whether or not the player himself just doesn't have certain weapons in his arsenal.

Noone even said anything remotely like that. You're running off on your own with that one there.

But I would absolutely take Schmidt's advice over posters on boards.ie, for fairly obvious reasons.

CatFromHue

How does BOD know who Schmidt is going to play and if he has been told by Schmidt is that not a massive breach of trust?

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Entirely possible that Schmidt can only work with what's in front of him. If he was coaching Australia and Izzy Folau was his FB his game plan may be entirely different.

Kearney plays the way Schmidt tells him to and the rest of the team can anticipate exactly what that means without having to wait for him to do it. It may be that Schmidt thinks there are other weak links in the side, so to speak, that would be exposed if his FB was given free reign to run around wherever he wanted.

I'm not an expert and I don't claim to know what Schmidt thinks or how he runs his teams but I would hazard a pretty certain guess that nothing an individual player is told to do, or not do, is based purely on that individual player.

awec

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Noone even said anything remotely like that. You're running off on your own with that one there.

But I would absolutely take Schmidt's advice over posters on boards.ie, for fairly obvious reasons.

So what does "Schmidt uses Kearney (and also Nacewa) as an example of exactly how it should be done when coaching other sides." mean exactly?

An example of how it should be done for who?

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Entirely possible that Schmidt can only work with what's in front of him. If he was coaching Australia and Izzy Folau was his FB his game plan may be entirely different.

Kearney plays the way Schmidt tells him to and the rest of the team can anticipate exactly what that means without having to wait for him to do it. It may be that Schmidt thinks there are other weak links in the side, so to speak, that would be exposed if his FB was given free reign to run around wherever he wanted.

I'm not an expert and I don't claim to know what Schmidt thinks or how he runs his teams but I would hazard a pretty certain guess that nothing an individual player is told to do, or not do, is based purely on that individual player.

irishbucsfan

awec wrote: »

So what does "Schmidt uses Kearney (and also Nacewa) as an example of exactly how it should be done when coaching other sides." mean exactly?

An example of how it should be done for who?

An example of how he coaches it.

There's a major difference between mechanics and strategy. Mechanics are much more objective and invariable between teams/coaches than is, and this is a mechanical issue (how to take the ball into contact and present the ball). You're confusing it with strategic instruction, what you're saying really doesn't make sense in the context of coaching basic mechanics.

irishbucsfan

CatFromHue wrote: »

How does BOD know who Schmidt is going to play and if he has been told by Schmidt is that not a massive breach of trust?

I would say it would be a pretty major breach in trust.

He did say recently that he was texting Joe about the 13 position though

Tox56

Buer wrote: »

Interesting comments from BOD on Twitter:

Brian O'Driscoll ✔ @BrianODriscoll
@Chasingsows13 I know he's playing Payne at 13 so it doesn't really matter what the country thinks.

And when asked on McCloskey:

Brian O'Driscoll ✔ @BrianODriscoll
@Chasingsows13 he won't be. Henshaw & Payne to start. He'll probably get capped at some stage over the 8 weeks.

I think this would be the right call, people lost their minds after the Argentina game and want the squad overhauled, but I still think this is the best centre combination we can put out. Most people werent looking for the Henshaw-Payne partnership to be broken up after the Scotland game in the last Six Nations, and as a partnership Payne-Henshaw played a total of 1 game since then by my count

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I would say it would be a pretty major breach in trust.

He did say recently that he was texting Joe about the 13 position though

Again we're interpreting a tweet in whatever way we want.

I could say I know Payne is starting at 13 but nobody would think I had inside information. Everyone knows Payne is starting at 13.

awec

irishbucsfan wrote: »

An example of how he coaches it.

There's a major difference between mechanics and strategy. Mechanics are much more objective and invariable between teams/coaches than is, and this is a mechanical issue (how to take the ball into contact and present the ball). You're confusing it with strategic instruction, what you're saying really doesn't make sense in the context of coaching basic mechanics.

You said it's an example for other sides. What other sides?

irishbucsfan

awec wrote: »

You said it's an example for other sides. What other sides?

He does sessions with other sides in the country, underage sides, other Irish representative sides like the Women's and club's side. He did a couple of sessions with a side a friend of mine plays for and he spent a long time talking about that aspect of their play.

irishbucsfan

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Again we're interpreting a tweet in whatever way we want.

I could say I know Payne is starting at 13 but nobody would think I had inside information. Everyone knows Payne is starting at 13.

Oh yes absolutely, I certainly think it's extremely silly for people to assume they know what people are talking about on Twitter as I've said before.

awec

irishbucsfan wrote: »

He does sessions with other sides in the country, underage sides, other Irish representative sides like the Women's and club's side. He did a couple of sessions with a side a friend of mine plays for and he spent a long time talking about that aspect of their play.

Oh, my bad. I thought you meant other test sides etc.

Sorry ibf

Clearlier

Teferi wrote: »

I agree with everything but the last bit. He may have the ability to run powerfully but he doesn't utilise it at all at international level. He runs right up the line, faffs about a bit doing his dance before inevitably getting tackled.

He uses his ability to run powerfully when it's appropriate (from about 2:05 in - couldn't get the specific time link to work):

mfceiling

Easy for us to criticise rob for running into traffic but rugby is so structured now it's the low risk option.
He runs into space and chances are he has no support (players expecting him to head for traffic ie numbers). He gets tackled with maybe one player to form the ruck. Ball is turned over and kicked in behind into space. No one at home, wingers running back and now our formation is like the bargains in lidl "all over the shop"!!

awec

mfceiling wrote: »

Easy for us to criticise rob for running into traffic but rugby is so structured now it's the low risk option.
He runs into space and chances are he has no support (players expecting him to head for traffic ie numbers). He gets tackled with maybe one player to form the ruck. Ball is turned over and kicked in behind into space. No one at home, wingers running back and now our formation is like the bargains in lidl "all over the shop"!!

I am not so sure this is true. Ireland may play an incredibly structured game (almost robotic), but I am not sure this really applies to test rugby in general.

Certainly other teams manage to attack from full back just fine. I am not sure you could accuse Israel Folau, Ben Smith, Mike Brown or Leigh Halfpenny of being players who catch the ball and constantly take the low-risk option of running into traffic.

I think Kearney is a very good player, a very good test player. But we may as well be honest and call this out as a weakness of his game rather than try and come up with excuses as to why it's actually really good that he's bad at it.

irishbucsfan

awec wrote: »

I am not so sure this is true. Ireland may play an incredibly structured game (almost robotic), but I am not sure this really applies to test rugby in general.

Certainly other teams manage to attack from full back just fine. I am not sure you could accuse Israel Folau, Ben Smith, Mike Brown or Leigh Halfpenny of being players who catch the ball and constantly take the low-risk option of running into traffic.

I think Kearney is a very good player, a very good test player. But we may as well be honest and call this out as a weakness of his game rather than try and come up with excuses as to why it's actually really good that he's bad at it.

A lot of the players you mention play exactly very similarly to Kearney. I think it's become a bit of a truism that Kearney is any different to be honest.

He has a major weakness, which is his tackling. In the kicking game he is among the very very best. We just don't beaten in the open kicking game and he is a major part of that. He has the game theory down to a science and his execution is very rarely off.

awec

irishbucsfan wrote: »

A lot of the players you mention play exactly very similarly to Kearney. I think it's become a bit of a truism that Kearney is any different to be honest.

He has a major weakness, which is his tackling. In the kicking game he is among the very very best. We just don't beaten in the open kicking game and he is a major part of that. He has the game theory down to a science and his execution is very rarely off.

No they don't. You're telling me Folau plays like Kearney? Or Ben Smith? No way. This really just has no basis in reality.

Nobody has said he isn't a good kicker. It is said he is not great at attacking with the ball, especially when he receives a kick. I don't really think this can be denied. It is not a huge problem that he is bad at this because Ireland's style of play actually utilises Kearney's strengths, i.e. kicking.

But attacking with the ball from deep? Absolutely not a strength of Rob Kearney.

If RK was as perfect as you say he'd stroll into any test side in the world. In reality I think he wouldn't even be a shoe-in for either England or Wales, even if we ignore the SH teams.