Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread V

lunarhog

Yeah, I've heard a lot of unwarranted criticism for the 6N. After the RWC, it is the best rugby competition in the world IMO. Every game is like a cup final, the craic with opposing fans is awesome and the intensity of the rugby is always very high even if the weather doesn't allow a free flowing style. In a month or so, we will all have forgotten most of the pain of this world cup and be looking forward to the 2016 6N in earnest. And Ireland for a hat trick of victories? Would be amazing and hasn't been done since the 60's

total former

jacothelad wrote: »

These posts are absolute nonsense. It is the cash from the 6Ns that keeps Irish rugby afloat - almost entirely. It happens every year, not a 6 week junket once every four years. In order to develop and spread rugby in Ireland we need to keep it vibrant and active each season, not sell out so the IRB . W.R. can have fun with the cash it generates.

Yours is a short-term view at best.

How much vibrancy and activity would doing well in the World Cup generate? Look at the newspapers this morning; pages and pages of coverage. Getting to a World Cup semi-final or beyond would make it a lot easier to shift tickets for the visit of Italy in the spring, I can guarantee you that.

Doing well at the world cup and winning the 6N are not mutually exclusive, however focussing entirely on one at the expense of the other is not going to end well, as we have repeatedly seen.

I guess some people are afraid of change, but it was that same fear of change that meant we got left behind when the game went professional, it took years to catch up. The game is constantly evolving, we need to do likewise.

Rigor Mortis

whatawaster wrote: »

But if Ross isn't an international anymore, he is hurting the national team by continuing at Leinster as Furlong and Moore are going to get less gametime.

The ideal for me would be players playing at the provinces in their youth and their prime and then getting a nice payday in the South of France to end their career, giving the new generation the gametime they need.

We have players who would be getting first choice club rugby in England or France. Look at Gilroy at 24, Reid at 25, Madigan at 26. I'm not sure provincial rugby as it currently is, has developed them fully.

On the older players, i would imagine a few will lose their iRFU contracts and will all of a sudden see the opportunities presented by the likes of Worcester and Sale in the UK and Grenoble and Pau in France.

If Rugby continues its growth we are going to see more and more lads going overseas earlier. JJ leaving Munster wont be the only one. Within reason, It might be no bad thing, either for the provinces or the national side.

total former

whatawaster wrote: »

But if Ross isn't an international anymore, he is hurting the national team by continuing at Leinster as Furlong and Moore are going to get less gametime.

The ideal for me would be players playing at the provinces in their youth and their prime and then getting a nice payday in the South of France to end their career, giving the new generation the gametime they need.

We have players who would be getting first choice club rugby in England or France. Look at Gilroy at 24, Reid at 25, Madigan at 26. I'm not sure provincial rugby as it currently is, has developed them fully.

Yeah, definitely, it's an issue that for every position on the field, there are only 4 jerseys in Ireland.

It might be a start if guys like Gilroy, Reid, Madigan etc, could be reassured that going to England would not rule them out of the international frame. I understand the reasons why we want to keep everyone here, but it's also a bit of a catch-22 to say "you must stay in Ireland to be eligible for the national team, but if you stay here, you might not get enough game time to develop to that level".

rrpc

total former wrote: »

Yeah, definitely, it's an issue that for every position on the field, there are only 4 jerseys in Ireland.

It might be a start if guys like Gilroy, Reid, Madigan etc, could be reassured that going to England would not rule them out of the international frame. I understand the reasons why we want to keep everyone here, but it's also a bit of a catch-22 to say "you must stay in Ireland to be eligible for the national team, but if you stay here, you might not get enough game time to develop to that level".

I don't think that problem is caused by the IRFU overlooking or excluding overseas players. It's more predicated on not being allowed enough access to them for training camps I think.

If somebody's going well in Pau or Grenoble, we can hardly jump in to the middle of their contract and demand better access. Jonny Sexton was an exception because he was already an Ireland player when he went to France and that was built into his contract.

CatFromHue

aimee1 wrote: »

Midi olympique reporting the RFU offering the IRFU 1.5 mil to buy JS out of his contract.

I could well believe it.

If Lancaster does resign then who will England get to replace him?

One of the reasons he got the job in the first place was that he was doing well on an interim basis and they were struggling to get candidates for the job.

total former

rrpc wrote: »

I don't think that problem is caused by the IRFU overlooking or excluding overseas players. It's more predicated on not being allowed enough access to them for training camps I think.

If somebody's going well in Pau or Grenoble, we can hardly jump in to the middle of their contract and demand better access. Jonny Sexton was an exception because he was already an Ireland player when he went to France and that was built into his contract.

But that's my point; do these guys need to shipping out to Carton House three times a year, or would they benefit more from playing high level rugby on a weekly basis?

At the moment, the likes of Madigan isn't going to go anywhere because he knows it would be the end of his Ireland career. He'll go back to Leinster now, sit on the bench for the biggest games, start the less important ones, thereby denying Marsh more game time. Who does that benefit? Not Ireland, I would argue.

.ak

Wait, are people arguing that we didn't target the World Cup?

We absolutely did. From the moment Joe Schmidt named an experimental side to take on Australia 2 years ago in the Aviva we've been planning for this weekend. The amount of depth we've created under the new management has always been geared towards this.

Are people assuming that because we got knocked out that it wasn't a priority?

A lot of blinkered thinking going on if so.

We went out because of rotten luck. You can't plan for losing your 5 best players over a week, it's as simple as. We, as a team, couldn't have prepared for it any better.

thebaz

I feal so flat to rugby today - first Ireland, then Scotland robbery - can't get excited about this WC anymore, the HC doesn't do it for me or the 6 Nations today - imagine how the payers themselves feel , trying to lift themselves for ther provinces.

Pudsy33

thebaz wrote: »

I feal so flat to rugby today - first Ireland, then Scotland robbery - can't get excited about this WC anymore, the HC doesn't do it for me or the 6 Nations today - imagine how the payers themselves feel , trying to lift themselves for ther provinces.

Hopefully they'll feel they didn't live up to their promise and have a chip on their shoulders. I can't wait for European rugby to kick off to be honest, and if there is one silver lining it's that the lads will be fresh.

rrpc

total former wrote: »

But that's my point; do these guys need to shipping out to Carton House three times a year, or would they benefit more from playing high level rugby on a weekly basis?

Difficult question to answer as it's not something that we've done before. If we're going to praise Argentina's improvement then we can't do that without acknowledging the amount of time they play together as a unit and at a high level internationally.

total former wrote: »

At the moment, the likes of Madigan isn't going to go anywhere because he knows it would be the end of his Ireland career. He'll go back to Leinster now, sit on the bench for the biggest games, start the less important ones, thereby denying Marsh more game time. Who does that benefit? Not Ireland, I would argue.

I suppose the only way to answer that question is to see how JJ Hanrahan gets on in England. Another possibility is for the provinces to work more closely together and supplement each other with players where the need arises.

CatFromHue

total former wrote: »

But that's my point; do these guys need to shipping out to Carton House three times a year, or would they benefit more from playing high level rugby on a weekly basis?

At the moment, the likes of Madigan isn't going to go anywhere because he knows it would be the end of his Ireland career. He'll go back to Leinster now, sit on the bench for the biggest games, start the less important ones, thereby denying Marsh more game time. Who does that benefit? Not Ireland, I would argue.

I don't think that's quite right for Madigan.

He's not going anywhere as he's starting 15-25 games a season for Leinster for the last 4 seasons, by the end of this season he could well be very close to getting his 150th cap for the province. He has 129 already.

I'm not sure how much Ireland comes into it.

phog

rrpc wrote: »

Another possibility is for the provinces to work more closely together and supplement each other with players where the need arises.

Hasn't the IRFU employed a guy to do that?

total former

.ak wrote: »

Wait, are people arguing that we didn't target the World Cup?

We absolutely did. From the moment Joe Schmidt named an experimental side to take on Australia 2 years ago in the Aviva we've been planning for this weekend. The amount of depth we've created under the new management has always been geared towards this.

Are people assuming that because we got knocked out that it wasn't a priority?

A lot of blinkered thinking going on if so.

We went out because of rotten luck. You can't plan for losing your 5 best players over a week, it's as simple as. We, as a team, couldn't have prepared for it any better.

Sorry to be a d*ck but if you're going to accuse people of being blinkered, you could at least get the underlying facts right.

The starting XV against Australia two years ago:

Kearney
Bowe O'Driscoll Marshall McFadden
Sexton Reddan
Healy Best Ross
Toner O'Connell
POM SOB Heaslip

If you're calling that experimental, then I can see why we disagree on the wider points :pac:

molloyjh

You can't also ignore what's going on in between RWCs. Argentina may have made it into the SF but they've also come last in 3 of their 4 RC appearances, only coming second to last to a really poor SA side. They've lost more than they've won. That might change with the new SR team, but I'd rather maintain a decent standard all the time than peak for a tournament every 4 years that we're unlikely to even win at that. Basically we've had 1 disappointment in 2 years (2 if you want to count that NZ game). It's a tough pill to swallow but you simply can't win all the time. And we've won more than we've lost. Unlike Argentina.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Just saw from Munster that POM has to have surgery on his knee but has to wait a few weeks for the knee to settle a bit. He could be out for a while.

molloyjh

total former wrote: »

Sorry to be a d*ck but if you're going to accuse people of being blinkered, you could at least get the underlying facts right.

The starting XV against Australia two years ago:

Kearney
Bowe O'Driscoll Marshall McFadden
Sexton Reddan
Healy Best Ross
Toner O'Connell
POM SOB Heaslip

If you're calling that experimental, then I can see why we disagree on the wider points :pac:

I think the biggest example of how we targeted the RWC is the centres. Joe identified who he wanted in place and stuck with them to ensure they were bedded down. In the end it didn't pan out, but a lot of our selection policies over the last couple of years have been with one eye on the RWC, no doubt about it. At the end of the day though we simply cannot put all our focus into one competition over another and so a balance had/has to be struck. Personally I think that has been managed well.

Bazzo

Anybody any opinions on what's going to happen with JJ Hanrahan? Always felt he showed a lot of promise and could be Ireland's future at 10, but can't blame him for leaving when he was sitting on the bench behind Keatley(?!) at Munster.

Just took a look at this video for a bit of a lift out of the depression. Surprising how all the Irish names involved in the trys seem to be youngsters who weren't really involved in the world cup. Probably not all that relevant really but hopefully we see a few more of them involved in the upcoming 6 nations.

molloyjh

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Just saw from Munster that POM has to have surgery on his knee but has to wait a few weeks for the knee to settle a bit. He could be out for a while.

That's really crap for him. He was arguably our player of the tournament. He was def up there anyway.

aimee1

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Just saw from Munster that POM has to have surgery on his knee but has to wait a few weeks for the knee to settle a bit. He could be out for a while.

Its a season ender by the looks of it. Most knee ops are 6 month out.

rrpc

phog wrote: »

Hasn't the IRFU employed a guy to do that?

Nucifora? He's high performance director, not sure if that remit goes as far as shuffling guys around the provinces.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

aimee1 wrote: »

Its a season ender by the looks of it. Most knee ops are 6 month out.

Ruptured ACL I think they said. They reckon 2-3 weeks before he can have the surgery so yeah, definitely going to miss the 6 Nations.

irishbucsfan

rrpc wrote: »

Nucifora? He's high performance director, not sure if that remit goes as far as shuffling guys around the provinces.

His role is to effectively ensure the quantity and quality of the player pool Schmidt is selecting from. Suggesting moves between provinces etc is a part of that.

The Lost Sheep

rrpc wrote: »

Nucifora? He's high performance director, not sure if that remit goes as far as shuffling guys around the provinces.

IRFU when announcing his appointment said his role was

"planning and evaluation, the elite player development pathway and succession planning and professional coach development and succession planning.
He will also oversee national team performance, provincial team performance, national age-grade teams and Women's team performance, sport science and medical services, elite referee development and National Professional Game Board (NPGB) and policy development."

Therefore his remit clearly involves shuffling players around provinces

razorblunt

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Just saw from Munster that POM has to have surgery on his knee but has to wait a few weeks for the knee to settle a bit. He could be out for a while.

That kind of thing would indicate 6 months at least, the usual run out at the end of season games.
Bad times.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

razorblunt wrote: »

That kind of thing would indicate 6 months at least, the usual run out at the end of season games.
Bad times.

Yeah it's not great but you have to look at the potential positives. We're most likely going to be heading into the 6 Nations without O'Connell or O'Mahony so it's a great opportunity for two players to really stamp their authority on those positions, and likewise the opportunity for a few more to look to break into the squad for the bench spots.

Can't find any update on Bowe other than he's having a scan at some point.

molloyjh

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Yeah it's not great but you have to look at the potential positives. We're most likely going to be heading into the 6 Nations without O'Connell or O'Mahony so it's a great opportunity for two players to really stamp their authority on those positions, and likewise the opportunity for a few more to look to break into the squad for the bench spots.

Can't find any update on Bowe other than he's having a scan at some point.

Ruddock will hopefully stay fit. Having a pack with an in form Healy, Best, Henderson, Ruddock and SOB in the 6 Nations would be great.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

It's probably being discussed in the Connacht thread but I've just seen AJ McGinty has joined them. It's a shame they had to wait until he'd already played for the USA, he's no use to us now.

vienne86

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Can't find any update on Bowe other than he's having a scan at some point.

At least Trimble is fit......I feel for him missing out on the RWC, but he's healthy.

Bazzo

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

It's probably being discussed in the Connacht thread but I've just seen AJ McGinty has joined them. It's a shame they had to wait until he'd already played for the USA, he's no use to us now.

Trust me, everyone at Connacht has been screaming for an out half signing since before last season. We all wish it had happened earlier.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Bazzo wrote: »

Trust me, everyone at Connacht has been screaming for an out half signing since before last season. We all wish it had happened earlier.

It's good for Connacht, obviously, and I hope he does well, it's just another important position we're not developing an "Irish" player in. That said Paddy Jackson is clearly the future

Annabella1

molloyjh wrote: »

Ruddock will hopefully stay fit. Having a pack with an in form Healy, Best, Henderson, Ruddock and SOB in the 6 Nations would be great.

CJ Stander will come into the picture soon as well
Plays 6 or 8 Age 25
Hopefully will step up

gally74

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Yeah it's not great but you have to look at the potential positives. We're most likely going to be heading into the 6 Nations without O'Connell or O'Mahony so it's a great opportunity for two players to really stamp their authority on those positions, and likewise the opportunity for a few more to look to break into the squad for the bench spots.

Can't find any update on Bowe other than he's having a scan at some point.

Is it the same knee as before, could be career threatening if it is.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Annabella1 wrote: »

CJ Stander will come into the picture soon as well
Plays 6 or 8 Age 25
Hopefully will step up

Van der Flier has looked decent for Leinster in his few appearances. 22 years old.

Neil3030

Plenty of young talent that could be knocking on the door come the 6N:

Jack O'Donoghue, Josh Van Der Flier, Dan Leavy.

Is Heenan still injured?

b.gud

Neil3030 wrote: »

Plenty of young talent that could be knocking on the door come the 6N:

Jack O'Donoghue, Josh Van Der Flier, Dan Leavy.

Is Heenan still injured?

Ya, he should be coming back soon I think, though he'll struggle to get back in the team if Nepia stays fit as he's been one of our stand outs so far this season

Bazzo

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

It's good for Connacht, obviously, and I hope he does well, it's just another important position we're not developing an "Irish" player in. That said Paddy Jackson is clearly the future

Well the other 3 out halves at Connacht(Carty, Ronaldson and Conor McKeon) are all Irish but while they're all young there hasn't been any signs that any of them will kick on to become the next great.

Neil3030 wrote: »

Plenty of young talent that could be knocking on the door come the 6N:

Jack O'Donoghue, Josh Van Der Flier, Dan Leavy.

Is Heenan still injured?

Don't think there's been an update recently but if I remember correctly last word was that he would be due back in November some time.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Bowe at the airport earlier. Looks serious?

aimee1

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Bowe at the airport earlier. Looks serious?

knee injury.

POM is gone from 6n and POC too. If we get everyone else back by then we are in with a shout. Wales have done the slam in 08 and 12 straight after RWCs.

irishbucsfan

aimee1 wrote: »

knee injury.

POM is gone from 6n and POC too. If we get everyone else back by then we are in with a shout. Wales have done the slam in 08 and 12 straight after RWCs.

POC wasn't going to be playing anyway, remember?

Scott Williams has been ruled out of the 6 Nations as well.

bilston

Yesterday was disapointing and while I understand the argument that it is an excuse I maintain that the injuries and the relevant schedules of ourselves and Argentina were a definite handicap.

Of course we would be deluding ourselves to just blame that but if you took Retallick, Kaino, McCaw, Carter and C.Smith out of the NZ team, a week after they had played SA and then asked them to play Australia, who seven days earlier had played Namibia, where the props were taking conversions, I'd say they'd be up against it as well.

That said our depth isn't maybe what we hoped it was. We don't have adequate cover for Sexton and when you remove 40% of the pack we can't replace it with either experience or equivalent talent. But then few countries could.

In terms of how we can improve it did seem as though the Argentinian backs were so much more comfortable on the ball than our backs. But then was that because we were too passive in defence and Argentina just had more time on the ball?

The truth is the heart was ripped out of our team before the game even started yesterday and we were up against it from the get go.

Schmidt isn't above criticism and he will face more open criticism from here on in because of yesterday. Watching yesterday we did look devoid of ideas at times in how to break Argentina down once we got past a few phases. But even that may have been down to the fact we were missing Sexton.

Selection wise I don't think he got much wrong. I suppose one criticism for me is his selection of Earls at 13. Keith is a top winger who would be in my Ireland team in that position. The likes of myself, Jaco and awec and others may sound like broken records but I honestly think Cave should have been straight into the team the minute Payne was ruled out with Earls on the wing. Other than that I don't know what else he could have done.

As for the future we need Joe to stay. Hopefully he and the IRFU turn down the advances of the RFU (if it is even true). I'd like to see an improvement in our attacking game, but at the same time you have to play to your strengths.

Personnel wise I don't see there being too many changes in the short term. However there are some players I'd like to see involved sooner or later. The likes of Furlong, Stander, O'Donoghue, Ruddock, McGrath, Hanrahan, Olding, McCloskey and Ringrose suggest we have some good talent ready to emerge so there is plenty to be positive about on that score. Joe IMO is undoubtedly the right man to bring those guys on.

There are only 1,418 days until the World Cup gets underway! Bring on the future!

aimee1

irishbucsfan wrote: »

POC wasn't going to be playing anyway, remember?

Scott Williams has been ruled out of the 6 Nations as well.

yeah thats what i mean , wasnt clear about it

wales could be missing a good few

Halfpenny is only due back mid february
S Williams is out and Webb too [Davies is proving a very good backup]

One or two others are definitely out too

Stheno

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

It's good for Connacht, obviously, and I hope he does well, it's just another important position we're not developing an "Irish" player in. That said Paddy Jackson is clearly the future

Can a player never qualify to play for a second country? Did Tuilagi who now plays for England not previously play for one of the Pacific Island teams?

irishbucsfan

Stheno wrote: »

Can a player never qualify to play for a second country? Did Tuilagi who now plays for England not previously play for one of the Pacific Island teams?

Not currently no.

Tuilagi never played for any other country, he's a product of the Leicester academy.

Bazzo

Stheno wrote: »

Can a player never qualify to play for a second country? Did Tuilagi who now plays for England not previously play for one of the Pacific Island teams?

No, easy mistake to make though as his FIVE brothers have all played for Samoa.

aimee1

Stheno wrote: »

Can a player never qualify to play for a second country? Did Tuilagi who now plays for England not previously play for one of the Pacific Island teams?

No you can only play at underage level, there was a row over one of the Shingler brothers a few years ago when he was selected for scotland but had played for wales u20 who were their designated second side, like Ireland A [might not be exact on details but it was along those lines]

Nacewa played about 14 seconds for fiji at the end of a game once and that was that, he could play for nobody else

Stheno

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Not currently no.

Tuilagi never played for any other country, he's a product of the Leicester academy.

Bazzo wrote: »

No, easy mistake to make though as his FIVE brothers have all played for Samoa.

Ah thanks for that

The Lost Sheep

aimee1 wrote: »

No you can only play at underage level, there was a row over one of the Shingler brothers a few years ago when he was selected for scotland but had played for wales u20 who were their designated second side, like Ireland A [might not be exact on details but it was along those lines]

Nacewa played about 14 seconds for fiji at the end of a game once and that was that, he could play for nobody else

You can play above age grade level if your country has more than 2 sides at open age grade level. For example somebody who played with the Emerging Ireland side could go on and play for another nation but if they played on the Wolfhounds that player would be ineligible to play for any one else.

Stheno wrote: »

Ah thanks for that

Depends on what side a country has as their second designated side

b.gud

Stheno wrote: »

Can a player never qualify to play for a second country? Did Tuilagi who now plays for England not previously play for one of the Pacific Island teams?

There was a loophole recently that I believe had something to do with 7s being in the Olympics that meant you could switch countries. I'm sure I'm hugely over simplifying as I can't remember the exact details

Tim Nani-Williams used it to play for Samoa and there was talk of Armitage using it to play for France at one stage

aimee1

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

You can play above age grade level if your country has more than 2 sides at open age grade level. For example somebody who played with the Emerging Ireland side could go on and play for another nation but if they played on the Wolfhounds that player would be ineligible to play for any one else.
Depends on what side a country has as their second designated side

yeah i knew it was to do with which side is designated but each country has different sides. Some use their u20s i think