Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread V

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

It may just be wishful thinking on my part but I always think/wonder/hope the style of play we're seeing now is a result of Schmidt deciding that defense is the foundation of a good team, so he spends a season or two perfecting that and as a result he goes with an attacking game plan that allows the team to get used to the defensive system, if you see what I mean. There's a lot to work on perfecting this defensive system so I'm not going to overload you with attacking systems too until we're defensively sound, sort of thing.

I would like to think that we'll see something a little different, a little more "exciting" from the team this year. We've got the defensive structure, which many people think is more to thank for winning two Six Nations than our try scoring was, I can't disagree. We're never going to play like New Zealand, that would require starting with kids at 5 and 6 now and reshaping the entire Irish coaching system through all age levels, something you wouldn't see results from for at least a decade or more.

There were some glimpses of "exciting" rugby during the WC. It all came against the lesser sides though, which is sensible enough but it shows some players are capable of more than what we see them doing within the current system. I'm not asking for, or expecting, huge changes in how we play but I'd like to see even a little sign that we're adding to our attacking plays now too.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

double post

AdamD

Is there any evidence to suggest a centre partnership needs to play 10+ games together to be capable of making a line break? I think its extremely rare for a partnership to take that long to 'click' in attack.

molloyjh

jacothelad wrote: »

It really wasn't one game. How did Ireland do in the RWC warm - ups? We beat Wales 3rds and scraped by a woeful Scotland before losing at home to Wales and being well beaten by England. These games reflected what Ireland were to do in the RWC...unconvincing I'd say. We were one desperate tackle away from losing to Italy.

I think we all have to realise that eventually any team runs out of steam. Players become jaded. Opposition coaches analyse what you are doing and employ counter measures. If we were New Zealand, we would have many fresh faces to reinvigorate the team. Ireland tend not to do so until they are forced in to it. This has been our history yet history shows that when this happens the team begins to perform again. Changing a winning formula for no reason defies sporting logic. Not changing a losing team does also. I think we are somewhere in the middle of this.

Looking at the players we have, only one or two are in the very top echelons of rugby playing. We simply don't have the forwards in abundance to make sweeping changes there. We all know that forwards and the set pieces win games and especially the back row. If Schmidt can get them to keep winning then he is a genius. I personally don't care how it's done but I'd be happier if it was with uplifting style. I don't think we have a team to do so in that manner. Players like Henderson, Stander and McCloskey just might be the catalyst to do so in the future. I'd have Stander and McCloskey in the starting team v. Wales. I'd also have Henshaw at 13 and give Payne the 15 slot.

The warm-ups were never going to be anything other than ways to build match fitness. We simply didn't need to be at our best, or even close to it, for those games. Wales and England on the other hand needed to be further along in their preparation due to their pool. I can't overstate how pointless it is looking at those games.

As for comparing us to NZ, well as things stand that's also pointless. In NZ there is far more joined up thinking in terms of how they develop talent and how they play the game than there is here. It's easier to settle into combinations when you play the same kind of way week in and week out. We're just not set up that way at all. But I have heard Joe talk about that being something that he and Nucifora would like to try and bed in and it's apparently something they are working on.

You're last paragraph though is spot on. And I think we really are developing the talent to be a bit more positive going forward. If you look at how dynamic guys like Killer, Cronin and Furlong are in the prop department or how comfortable some of the locks are with ball in hand like Toner, Hendo and Molony we are going in the right direction. But it's not a light switch and people need to be patient.

molloyjh

AdamD wrote: »

Is there any evidence to suggest a centre partnership needs to play 10+ games together to be capable of making a line break? I think its extremely rare for a partnership to take that long to 'click' in attack.

It's not about line breaks though. Or at least not just about line breaks. It's about guys being comfortable with each other and their decision making to know who is going to be where and when or going to do what and when. For example a reverse pass to a looping out-half from 12 is only going to work if the out-half knows it's coming (or is a possibility) and is in a position to take the pass. Look at the interplay in the middle of the field in 2014 compared to 2015. That was all down to familiarity.

With Sexton-Henshaw-Payne they played 1 game together in the 2014 AIs. Then Sexton was out vs Italy and they only played 4 games together in the 2015 6 Nations. Then between injuries to all three they only played 1 game together in the RWC. That simply doesn't give them the time to breed the familiarity required. It's 6 games in 15 months disrupted by injuries.

molloyjh

molloyjh wrote: »

It's not about line breaks though. Or at least not just about line breaks. It's about guys being comfortable with each other and their decision making to know who is going to be where and when or going to do what and when. For example a reverse pass to a looping out-half from 12 is only going to work if the out-half knows it's coming (or is a possibility) and is in a position to take the pass. Look at the interplay in the middle of the field in 2014 compared to 2015. That was all down to familiarity.

With Sexton-Henshaw-Payne they played 1 game together in the 2014 AIs. Then Sexton was out vs Italy and they only played 4 games together in the 2015 6 Nations. Then between injuries to all three they only played 1 game together in the RWC. That simply doesn't give them the time to breed the familiarity required. It's 6 games in 15 months disrupted by injuries.

Add to this and look how badly savaged Lancaster was for not building more continuity in mid-field.

Losing Joseph was a disaster for England, more noticeable but equivalent to the disaster of us losing Payne. It left us with no direction in mid field and when we lost Sexton we found ourselves completely at sea to the point of shipping 17 points to Argentina before we got our act together and tightened things up. That's what no shape in mid-field does to you.

former total

jacothelad wrote: »

It really wasn't one game. How did Ireland do in the RWC warm - ups? We beat Wales 3rds and scraped by a woeful Scotland before losing at home to Wales and being well beaten by England. These games reflected what Ireland were to do in the RWC...unconvincing I'd say. We were one desperate tackle away from losing to Italy.

I think we all have to realise that eventually any team runs out of steam. Players become jaded. Opposition coaches analyse what you are doing and employ counter measures. If we were New Zealand, we would have many fresh faces to reinvigorate the team. Ireland tend not to do so until they are forced in to it. This has been our history yet history shows that when this happens the team begins to perform again. Changing a winning formula for no reason defies sporting logic. Not changing a losing team does also. I think we are somewhere in the middle of this.

Looking at the players we have, only one or two are in the very top echelons of rugby playing. We simply don't have the forwards in abundance to make sweeping changes there. We all know that forwards and the set pieces win games and especially the back row. If Schmidt can get them to keep winning then he is a genius. I personally don't care how it's done but I'd be happier if it was with uplifting style. I don't think we have a team to do so in that manner. Players like Henderson, Stander and McCloskey just might be the catalyst to do so in the future. I'd have Stander and McCloskey in the starting team v. Wales. I'd also have Henshaw at 13 and give Payne the 15 slot.

But in what way is it a jaded team?? The team that will be named on Thursday, regardless of what way certain calls go, will be very, very different from that of a couple of years ago. Payne and Henshaw have been in the team for 15 months. Either Stander or Ruddock will be in the back row. Which of Dave Kearney, Trimble or Earls is the tired veteran with nothing more to give? Toner, Jack McGrath? We have three tightheads in the squad with a total of 2 international starts between them. Even the "veterans" are relatively young.

Whatever this team is, "jaded" it is not.

flangemeistro

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Are you suggesting that team Ireland, the management, the staff and doctors are all going to join in a mass conspiracy to allow someone with a brain injury play a physical contact sport?

If Sexton has a concussion then no one is going to try and hide that fact, and suggesting that they would without proof is not helpful.

The doctors who care for him would not only lose their jobs, but lose their ability to practice medicine if they wilfully engaged with something like that.

No I'm not suggesting they will play him, I'm suggesting the exact opposite that they will not play him because of his concussion but will blame it on a calf, ankle, groin, back or shoulder strain to buy them more time properly diagnosing it while also keeping the opposition guessing as to whether they prepare for Sexton, Madigan or Jackson.

I hope I'm 100% wrong but I reckon Sexton will be a late withdrawal from the Welsh game.

Buer

flangemeistro wrote: »

No I'm not suggesting they will play him, I'm suggesting the exact opposite that they will not play him because of his concussion but will blame it on a calf, ankle, groin, back or shoulder strain to buy them more time properly diagnosing it while also keeping the opposition guessing as to whether they prepare for Sexton, Madigan or Jackson.

I hope I'm 100% wrong but I reckon Sexton will be a late withdrawal from the Welsh game.

But they're having him train with the squad in public in the meantime?

Yeah_Right

The team has a great couple of years. Winning most of their games, lifting trophies, a record breaking winning streak, a couple of monkeys off the back (Argentina and France away), highest ever world ranking then one bad performance in a World Cup knockout match and everyone loses their ****. Journos and fans calling for sweeping changes to the team, coaching staff and style of play.

Where have I seen this before?

After every World Cup from 1991 to 2007. I thought NZ had a monopoly on over reacting to losing one off matches. Glad to see I was wrong.

irishbucsfan

awec wrote: »

We won it. So what? This doesn't mean we can't improve how we play.

Personally I take a lot of enjoyment out of the way we play. I loved the France game in the 6 Nations last year, I found it as enjoyable as any game.

The professionals involved in the squad might see an "improvement" in how we play as more of the same, they're absolute purists after all. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and all that.

Buer

Buer wrote: »

But they're having him train with the squad in public in the meantime?

It's all part of the conspiracy. That just "looks like" Sexton. They've actually flown O'Gara back and surgically removed Sexton's face and placed it onto O'Gara who is filling in to train with the squad and fool Gatland into a false sense of something or other. Everyone thinks he doesn't want to tackle in case he gets another knock to the head, but really it's just how ROG always plays!

Then they put O'Gara's face on Sexton who is currently back in Racing doing a terrible Cork / French / D4 accent whilst coaching Dan Carter.

The plan is on Saturday to switch everything back, get Sexton to spell his surname backwards three times and if he does this ok he will start on Sunday.

This has only been possible thanks to the face transplanting technology on loan from the....

aimee1

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

It may just be wishful thinking on my part but I always think/wonder/hope the style of play we're seeing now is a result of Schmidt deciding that defense is the foundation of a good team, so he spends a season or two perfecting that and as a result he goes with an attacking game plan that allows the team to get used to the defensive system, if you see what I mean. There's a lot to work on perfecting this defensive system so I'm not going to overload you with attacking systems too until we're defensively sound, sort of thing.

I would like to think that we'll see something a little different, a little more "exciting" from the team this year. We've got the defensive structure, which many people think is more to thank for winning two Six Nations than our try scoring was, I can't disagree. We're never going to play like New Zealand, that would require starting with kids at 5 and 6 now and reshaping the entire Irish coaching system through all age levels, something you wouldn't see results from for at least a decade or more.

There were some glimpses of "exciting" rugby during the WC. It all came against the lesser sides though, which is sensible enough but it shows some players are capable of more than what we see them doing within the current system. I'm not asking for, or expecting, huge changes in how we play but I'd like to see even a little sign that we're adding to our attacking plays now too.

to add to this we currently have no defence coach so I would expect to see the optional changes kept to a minimum. Of the 23 that beat France in the RWC there is 8 players unavailable through injury or retirement [Healy, Ross, POC, POM, Bowe, Henry, Fitz, Henderson]

awec

aimee1 wrote: »

to add to this we currently have no defence coach so I would expect to see the optional changes kept to a minimum. Of the 23 that beat France in the RWC there is 8 players unavailable through injury or retirement [Healy, Ross, POC, POM, Bowe, Henry, Fitz, Henderson]

Henderson is the only one on that list we will really struggle to replace.

aimee1

awec wrote: »

Henderson is the only one on that list we will really struggle to replace.

regardless of the who, its a huge turnover from two games ago

Mahatma Geansai

awec wrote: »

Henderson is the only one on that list we will really struggle to replace.

Ah now. I think POC leaves a slightly larger hole in the team than Henderson. Henderson is a great talent, but its facetious to state that someone who has only been a squad player up until now (rightly or wrongly) is irreplaceable.

MJohnston

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Personally I take a lot of enjoyment out of the way we play. I loved the France game in the 6 Nations last year, I found it as enjoyable as any game.

The professionals involved in the squad might see an "improvement" in how we play as more of the same, they're absolute purists after all. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and all that.

Have to agree - I don't understand this idea that we've been boring or unenjoyable over the last couple of years.

awec

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

Ah now. I think POC leaves a slightly larger hole in the team than Henderson. Henderson is a great talent, but its facetious to state that someone who has only been a squad player up until now (rightly or wrongly) is irreplaceable.

Henderson was POCs replacement. I look at this realistically, our replacement for POC is injured and we don't have a replacement for the replacement. If we had Henderson I doubt we'd miss POC in terms of his play at all (we obviously miss the leadership).

Henderson is pretty much irreplaceable because our depth at lock is poor. We have nobody else like him.

All the others on aimees list can be easily replaced by players who are almost as good, or in a few cases arguably better. This is not the case at lock.

MJohnston

http://www.the42.ie/simon-zebo-munster-contract-2578437-Feb2016/?utm_source=twitter_self

Where are all the people up in arms over Nucifora and the exodus now?

MJohnston

http://www.the42.ie/simon-zebo-munster-contract-2578437-Feb2016/?utm_source=twitter_self

Where are all the people up in arms over Nucifora and the exodus now?

thomond2006

Losing Fitzgerald is a considerable blow. Ireland isn't short of backline players but Fitzgerald offers the most versatility.

MJohnston

MJohnston wrote: »

http://www.the42.ie/simon-zebo-munster-contract-2578437-Feb2016/?utm_source=twitter_self

Where are all the people up in arms over Nucifora and the exodus now?

Sitting in Leinster with their arms still up I'd imagine.

aimee1

awec wrote: »

Henderson was POCs replacement. I look at this realistically, our replacement for POC is injured and we don't have a replacement for the replacement. If we had Henderson I doubt we'd miss POC in terms of his play at all (we obviously miss the leadership).

Henderson is pretty much irreplaceable because our depth at lock is poor. We have nobody else like him.

All the others on aimees list can be easily replaced by players who are almost as good, or in a few cases arguably better. This is not the case at lock.

thats a fair point about the list of players, but we saw what happened when we had 5 changes against argentina which is why I think there wont be much tinkering with the team.

Zzippy

MJohnston wrote: »

http://www.the42.ie/simon-zebo-munster-contract-2578437-Feb2016/?utm_source=twitter_self

Where are all the people up in arms over Nucifora and the exodus now?

Sitting on the fence until Henshaw re-signs for Connacht. Then the Connacht crew will be all "Great job Dave!" and the Leinster crew will be digging out the pitchforks again... we don't really care about Zebo.

I would have thought Zebo was the most likely of all to be heading abroad. I imagine he got some seriously good offers given his marketability.

awec

thomond2006 wrote: »

Losing Fitzgerald is a considerable blow. Ireland isn't short of backline players but Fitzgerald offers the most versatility.

I am not sure about this. We may miss the versatility but we have other versatile players. I believe we have specialists in all of Fitzgerald's positions who are better in that position than he is.

As for the rest:

Healy - McGrath is better anyway and I am sure Cronin can do a job off the bench
POM - Stander is now available and Ruddock is very good
Henry - not a starter anyway, and TOD is back
Bowe - we have loads of wing options
Ross - we have very good options.

former total

Zzippy wrote: »

Sitting on the fence until Henshaw re-signs for Connacht. Then the Connacht crew will be all "Great job Dave!" and the Leinster crew will be digging out the pitchforks again... we don't really care about Zebo.

Jesus. I had genuinely forgotten about the whole "Henshaw to Leinster" discussion. Something to look forward to then.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

former total wrote: »

Jesus. I had genuinely forgotten about the whole "Henshaw to Leinster" discussion. Something to look forward to then.

You'd think we'd be hearing something about that sooner rather than later. Everyone else seems to be signing on or signing off at the moment. Maybe it's a done deal and they're keeping it under wraps until after the 6 Nations. One way or the other there'll be a lot of attention of him once it's announced.

awec

The talk I have heard is that Henshaw is going to sign on with Connacht again for another season.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

awec wrote: »

The talk I have heard is that Henshaw is going to sign on with Connacht again for another season.

Interesting to see what Leinster would do if he did. They'd be left with Reid and Ringrose as centres. Fitzgerald might have to be permanently moved there, if he can stay fit for more than a few weeks.

awec

awec wrote: »

I am not sure about this. We may miss the versatility but we have other versatile players. I believe we have specialists in all of Fitzgerald's positions who are better in that position than he is.

As for the rest:

Healy - McGrath is better anyway and I am sure Cronin can do a job off the bench
POM - Stander is now available and Ruddock is very good
Henry - not a starter anyway, and TOD is back
Bowe - we have loads of wing options
Ross - we have very good options.

I think you are being very unfair to Fitzgerald there, he was one of the few players who showed up against Argentina and has been stellar for Leinster all season. Just have to disagree with your assessment of him here.

As for Healy, he hasn't been in form for over a year, but an on form Healy is world class and none of our tight-five can be held in that category so I consider his absence a certain loss.

Henderson is a big loss in the loose but I think McCarthy is as effective at the breakdown and set piece. We lose the dynamism and ball carrying though and am not sure where we make it up in the pack.

POC is irreplaceable to be honest but different to the rest in that he isn't available anymore.

Still - the point is that's an awful lot of change.

irishbucsfan

Zzippy wrote: »

Sitting on the fence until Henshaw re-signs for Connacht. Then the Connacht crew will be all "Great job Dave!" and the Leinster crew will be digging out the pitchforks again... we don't really care about Zebo.

To be fair a decent portion of us would prefer Henshaw stays with Connacht, for the benefit of Irish rugby

awec

It is a lot of change but it is not as if these guys are playing together every week throughout the season to build up very high levels of familiarity anyway.

aimee1

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Interesting to see what Leinster would do if he did. They'd be left with Reid and Ringrose as centres. Fitzgerald might have to be permanently moved there, if he can stay fit for more than a few weeks.

Henshaw staying out west is actually quite important for Leinster just as much as it is for ireland. Leinster need to look for a NIQ centre possibly

wp_rathead

[Deleted User] wrote: »

As for Healy, he hasn't been in form for over a year, but an on form Healy is world class and none of our tight-five can be held in that category so I consider his absence a certain loss.

McGrath is better than an off form Healy

Podge_irl

Deleted User wrote: »

As for Healy, he hasn't been in form for over a year, but an on form Healy is world class and none of our tight-five can be held in that category so I consider his absence a certain loss.

His lack of form is the loss. Even if he were fit, if he was playing to the same standard he has been recently I'm not sure he'd deserve to be in the 23 to be honest.

Podge_irl

Podge_irl wrote: »

His lack of form is the loss. Even if he were fit, if he was playing to the same standard he has been recently I'm not sure he'd deserve to be in the 23 to be honest.

I'd almost agree. He was getting it together before his most recent injury and I felt he was just coming into form on time for the six nations.

sheep?

irishbucsfan wrote: »

To be fair a decent portion of us would prefer Henshaw stays with Connacht, for the benefit of Irish rugby

I'd definitely be one of them. I'd also go as far as saying it'd be detrimental to Leinster to bring another Ireland starter into their mix. (At the moment. That may change further down the line).

former total

sheep? wrote: »

I'd definitely be one of them. I'd also go as far as saying it'd be detrimental to Leinster to bring another Ireland starter into their mix. (At the moment. That may change further down the line).

Detrimental to Leinster? Not seeing that myself. I'd say it's very detrimental to Connacht and neutral to Ireland but Leinster should take the hand off him if it's on the table.

thomond2006

awec wrote: »

The talk I have heard is that Henshaw is going to sign on with Connacht again for another season.

From a Connacht POV that's better than nothing but it just means we'll have the same nonsense in the media/online next season. I still think a long term deal (3+ years) with Connacht with an 'out' if they don't make the Champions Cup is the best solution. I don't think Henshaw/Henshaw's agent will want a one year deal, it doesn't offer much in terms of job/cash security in case of serious injury etc.

I think the best Irish 23 should all move to Leinster, then say Connacht could have the next best 23, then Ulster have the next best 23 and finally Munster could have the dregs. Leinster could possibly contest in Europe again, the best Irish 23 would be constantly playing together and Munster wouldn't win a thing. It's a flawless win-win situation really. Where do I sign Mr. IRFU?

irishbucsfan

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I think the best Irish 23 should all move to Leinster, then say Connacht could have the next best 23, then Ulster have the next best 23 and finally Munster could have the dregs. Leinster could possibly contest in Europe again, the best Irish 23 would be constantly playing together and Munster wouldn't win a thing. It's a flawless win-win situation really. Where do I sign Mr. IRFU?

Who would play for Leinster during the international period?!

Zzippy

awec wrote: »

The talk I have heard is that Henshaw is going to sign on with Connacht again for another season.

Reliable source?

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Who would play for Leinster during the international period?!

Darragh Fanning. Naturally...

aimee1

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Who would play for Leinster during the international period?!

bring yer boots ......

irishbucsfan

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Who would play for Leinster during the international period?!

Ulster

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Who would play for Leinster during the international period?!

The Connacht players would put on blue jerseys. Ulster shift across to Galway and Munster would just have to give walk overs.

bilston

Buer wrote: »

But they're having him train with the squad in public in the meantime?

I thought Jackson was running at out half in the open session last week? At least that's what I read on the ever reliable rugby MBs!

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

bilston wrote: »

I thought Jackson was running at out half in the open session last week? At least that's what I read on the ever reliable rugby MBs!

Sexton was there as well. Nobody seems to be able to say what he was doing though.

molloyjh

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Sexton was there as well. Nobody seems to be able to say what he was doing though.

They don't just have a single back line running training moves at one time while others sit on their back sides watching though. They generally have groups working together. From what I saw in the RDS before the RWC they mixed it up a fair bit then as well. It wasn't a case of firsts together and everyone else off somewhere else doing their own thing. Everyone was mixed in together doing all of it.

EDIT: Also at any of those public sessions they aren't going to be showing very much anyway so I wouldn't read anything into any of it unless guys were sitting it out.

jacothelad

wp_rathead wrote: »

McGrath is better than an off form Healy

Denis Buckley is pretty good too. I wish he played for Ulster.