Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread V

captbarnacles

Shane Horgan on SecondCaptains thinks Joe might be tempted by England

Stheno

captbarnacles wrote: »

Shane Horgan on SecondCaptains thinks Joe might be tempted by England

Seriously?

aimee1

captbarnacles wrote: »

Shane Horgan on SecondCaptains thinks Joe might be tempted by England

TBH I would be surprised if he just dismissed it outright, but I doubt he will get involved in any discussion unless he gets the go ahead from the IRFU and Lancaster is gone, he wont go sniffing after another coach's job while he is still there.

captbarnacles

Yeah he said that too but Shane reckons that will be very soon.

I would be gutted if Schmidt left. I cannot see that happening.

rrpc

captbarnacles wrote: »

Yeah he said that too but Shane reckons that will be very soon.

Cheeky baxtards. Is nothing sacred?

b.gud

We might be a bit too biased to answer it accurately but does anyone here actually think that the England job is a big enough of a step up for Scmidth to leave? I for one don't think it is.

From what I've heard Scmidth is also a big family man and that his family are quite happy here and well looked after, in particular I've heard him mention previously that his son with epilepsy is really settled in his school. I think the only job that would convince him to uproot his family is one in NZ

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

aimee1 wrote: »

knee injury.

POM is gone from 6n and POC too. If we get everyone else back by then we are in with a shout. Wales have done the slam in 08 and 12 straight after RWCs.

No harm to Bowe but it might not be a bad thing Iif we were forced into looking at a new option on the wing. Himself and Trimble are kind of first choice there, or were, and as good as they have been they're not going to be around for too much longer. I know we brought other wingers to the WC but I wouldn't rate any of them as highly as Trimble or an on form Bowe. Of those who played on the wing at the world cup Fitzgerald, surprisingly, was the only one that impressed against a good side.

If I was picking a 6 Nations team now I'd go with Trimble and Fitzgerald on the wings and have someone like Gilroy on the bench and make sure he got plenty of game time.

case885

Hypothetically speaking, if Schmidt was to leave for the English job who's available or suitable for the Irish job?
Conor o Shea is always mentioned, Gregor Townsend has done a fantastic job at Glasgow and plays lovely rugby I think he'd be worth a punt.
Hopefully it won't come to this though.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

The problem with the England job is the level of scrutiny that comes with it. It's been mentioned already how Joe is a family man and I would imagine that this would be a big consideration if he was thinking about taking it. Look at how Lancaster has been publicly discected these past few weeks.

jm08

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

The problem with the England job is the level of scrutiny that comes with it. It's been mentioned already how Joe is a family man and I would imagine that this would be a big consideration if he was thinking about taking it. Look at how Lancaster has been publicly discected these past few weeks.

Easy. Continue to live in Ireland and commute. It wouldn't be that different to heading off to Carton for a couple of weeks or on tour. Simon Easterby manages to still live in Wales for example.

jm08

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

No harm to Bowe but it might not be a bad thing Iif we were forced into looking at a new option on the wing. Himself and Trimble are kind of first choice there, or were, and as good as they have been they're not going to be around for too much longer. I know we brought other wingers to the WC but I wouldn't rate any of them as highly as Trimble or an on form Bowe. Of those who played on the wing at the world cup Fitzgerald, surprisingly, was the only one that impressed against a good side.

If I was picking a 6 Nations team now I'd go with Trimble and Fitzgerald on the wings and have someone like Gilroy on the bench and make sure he got plenty of game time.

I don't think Trimble is anywhere near first choice on the wing anymore. Dave Kearney was selected ahead of him, Luke Fitz & Zebo at the world cup. D Kearney is first choice winger now (though I think Earls is probably ahead of him on the wing).

Brewster

jm08 wrote: »

I don't think Trimble is anywhere near first choice on the wing anymore. Dave Kearney was selected ahead of him, Luke Fitz & Zebo at the world cup. D Kearney is first choice winger now (though I think Earls is probably ahead of him on the wing).

They weren't prepared to take a gamble on Trimble's fitness, that is long and short of it. Having an argument who is and isn't first choice at this stage is rather hollow. The Six Nations will look after itself. A fit Trimble is a better player than a fit Dave Kearney, anyone that would even attempt to challenge this is deluded quite frankly. Enough said!! He is more intelligent, he is better defender, he is a better finisher close in to line, he is physically stronger, he is better under high ball, kicking wise not much in it, Kearney may have the edge. Trimble is a fantastic winger, I've said it on here for years, he just needed a father figure to get best out of him. He always had the attributes to be a top class winger. Time is going to catch up with him now and he is unlikely to be an option for 4 years time. Gilroy is probably the player that has the potential to be something special; Kiss going to Ulster could be the making of the guy.

CatFromHue

case885 wrote: »

Hypothetically speaking, if Schmidt was to leave for the English job who's available or suitable for the Irish job?
Conor o Shea is always mentioned, Gregor Townsend has done a fantastic job at Glasgow and plays lovely rugby I think he'd be worth a punt.
Hopefully it won't come to this though.

That's the prob with international coaching, there aren't that many realistic candidates.

COS is mentioned alot but even he said not yet for him
Townsend is only a couple of years into being a head coach so doubt he'd be interested in an international job

Leinster couldn't find anyone that was interested in them and had to recruit from within and I could see Ireland struggling too. Even when you look back at it Gatland took the job when he was inexperienced and we still recruited him from within, then EOS who we again recruited from within, then Kidney recruited from within, and now Schmidt who we also recruited from within.

From the IRFU's point of view they shouldn't even entertain the idea of realising him from his contract.

irishbucsfan

Dave Kearney should end up on the right wing, and put on a bit more bulk. He's got excellent skills on the ball and his defense (despite a horror showing last weekend) is generally excellent. He's good positionally and he works hard. He just seems naturally suited to the right wing to me if he can perhaps carry a bit more weight (to help him in traffic).

CatFromHue

Ah I dunno. I like Kearney but I wouldn't rate his defence as one of his strong points. He's had one or two horror moments for Leinster last season alone.

irishbucsfan

CatFromHue wrote: »

Ah I dunno. I like Kearney but I wouldn't rate his defence as one of his strong points. He's had one or two horror moments for Leinster last season alone.

Well I think you're definitely wrong there. When did he have horror moments?

Defense is one of the stronger aspects of his game, he's rated highly for it, often makes pretty big hits and turns momentum around.

shuffol

From watching Kearney for Leinster I'd have had him down as an error prone defender also though aside from Sunday he's always done well there for Ireland.

I think his selection for us very much depends on the style of play we want to go with.

efb

For me Dave like his brother is solid.

He'll never get 9/10 but consistently brings an 8/10

CatFromHue

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Well I think you're definitely wrong there. When did he have horror moments?

Defense is one of the stronger aspects of his game, he's rated highly for it, often makes pretty big hits and turns momentum around.

Are we talking about the same Dave Kearney here?

He has tackling issues.

I can't remember the exact game but in general I can't remember any big tackles from him in his whole Leinster career.

irishbucsfan

CatFromHue wrote: »

Are we talking about the same Dave Kearney here?

He has tackling issues.

I can't remember the exact game but in general I can't remember any big tackles from him in his whole Leinster career.

I think you should keep an eye on him this season. He's actually a very good tackler and makes quite a few offensive tackles, truthfully I don't think he'd have enough in the rest of his game to make the Irish team if that wasn't the case.

A quick example, and relevant enough to last weekend, this tackle against Joaquin Tuculet earlier this year (a shame he couldn't do it to Tuculet when it counted):

phog

Dave Kearney is too slow to be an international winger, if he bulks up then will he reduce speed even moree?

For me there are too many ahead if him if everyone is fit.

.ak

phog wrote: »

Dave Kearney is too slow to be an international winger, if he bulks up then will he reduce speed even moree?

For me there are too many ahead if him if everyone is fit.

I'm not sure where this comes from. He's the same speed as fitz, Bowe of Trimble.

total former

Ah lads. Take a second and think here.

Given what we know about Joe's preference for what a winger should be able to do and his general style of play; is it remotely likely he would be so keen on a winger with serious defensive frailties?

Open season on scapegoats maybe. Happy hunting.

BoardsMember

Why do people always come back to Conor O'Shea when talking about future options for Ireland coach? There seems to be a perception that he's a world class coach, I'm just wondering where that comes from. Yes, he's good on a TV panel, but that's hardly relevant. Quins last year lost 12 of 22 games.

.ak

awec wrote: »

This injury thing is being over used.

The team we had out was more than good enough to win. Sexton was withdrawn with a minor strain because they didn't want to risk him. Does that sound like the action of a coach who thinks he might be sending a team out for their last WC game?

At the end of the day it was a game we really should have targeted to win and we not only lost, but we got absolutely battered. If questions shouldn't be asked after that (and I am NOT questioning Schmidt's position) then when do they get asked?

We won two six nations. Clearly that is not worth a damn when it gets to the business end of the world cup. Our first meeting with decent SH opposition this tournament and we are sent packing with ease. That is not good enough.

It really isn't being over used. I'm surprised you think a team can lose their 5 best players going into a quarter final and win it. It's THE reason we lost.

Like, if we just lost sexton going into it I'd be worried, never mind Payne, poc, Pom, and sob. These guys are game changers. The team we put out would struggle with Italy.

total former

.ak wrote: »

It really isn't being over used. I'm surprised you think a team can lose their 5 best players going into a quarter final and win it. It's THE reason we lost.

Well, we lost 5 very good players, not sure if you had picked our top 5 before the tournament you'd have come up with those same names.

jm08

.ak wrote: »

It really isn't being over used. I'm surprised you think a team can lose their 5 best players going into a quarter final and win it. It's THE reason we lost.

Like, if we just lost sexton going into it I'd be worried, never mind Payne, poc, Pom, and sob. These guys are game changers. The team we put out would struggle with Italy.

Ireland lost away to Italy with a lot worse injuries (including Peter O'Mahony on the wing) and injuries were not accepted as an excuse for losing. The coach lost his job.

jm08

jm08 wrote: »

Ireland lost away to Italy with a lot worse injuries (including Peter O'Mahony on the wing) and injuries were not accepted as an excuse for losing. The coach lost his job.

#JoeOutSaysjm08

.ak

total former wrote: »

Well, we lost 5 very good players, not sure if you had picked our top 5 before the tournament you'd have come up with those same names.

But it wasn't before the tournament. It was before the quarter final, and they were our best players. Arguably henshaw and Murray would be in that list too.

The team we put out was always going to be against it, but I find it mind boggling that people are dismissing how important those players are.

Tbh without sexton we're not capable of beating the bigger teams.

.ak

jm08 wrote: »

Ireland lost away to Italy with a lot worse injuries (including Peter O'Mahony on the wing) and injuries were not accepted as an excuse for losing. The coach lost his job.

Well the defeat was understandable due to the injuries.

The continued bad form was not.

Happyman42

total former wrote: »

Well, we lost 5 very good players, not sure if you had picked our top 5 before the tournament you'd have come up with those same names.

Dancing on the head of a pin there. They were 5 pivotal-key-integral players if 'best' doesn't do it for you. We fell apart as a challenge when they went out.
We fell apart for 20 minutes the Argies had targeted.
We wouldn't have done that had the 5 been there and we would have shipped a max of 10 points in those 20 making the clawback a lot easier.
Mid or quarter way through the second half I was relaxed about the outcome, I was convinced we would overhaul the score and go on to win. Was I alone on that?
Another 10 minute period after Argentina should have had a player binned (as the pressure we were mounting forced a loss of discipline) sealed the game for them.
Commentators on ITV were even saying that Arg looked out on their feet in some positions.
A couple of days after, I am not that disappointed with the show a depleted team put on. There is work and a shift in direction needed though.

aimee1

jm08 wrote: »

Ireland lost away to Italy with a lot worse injuries (including Peter O'Mahony on the wing) and injuries were not accepted as an excuse for losing. The coach lost his job.

It wasnt just the injuries and the Italy game which cost Kidney. It was our worst championship performance in a long time - 1 win [wales away] and 1 draw [France Home]

His time was up, he was never going to be able to take the team forward. He delivered a slam, and a first ever big win at a RWC but thereafter it was downhill, unless he turned things around in 2013 6n he was never likely to continue beyond that.

molloyjh

total former wrote: »

Well, we lost 5 very good players, not sure if you had picked our top 5 before the tournament you'd have come up with those same names.

Hang on, what!? If not them then who? Best and Murray are obviously up there as well but nobody else. POC, POM and SOB were easily our "star" players in the pack coming into the tournament. And Sexton is one of the best 10s in the world.

molloyjh

jm08 wrote: »

Ireland lost away to Italy with a lot worse injuries (including Peter O'Mahony on the wing) and injuries were not accepted as an excuse for losing. The coach lost his job.

Well actually most accepted the fact that the injuries were the problem there. The fact that we were on our worst run of form in years up to that point was really the issue.

jm08

Deleted User wrote: »

#JoeOutSaysjm08

#JM08SaysNoSuchThing.

total former

molloyjh wrote: »

Hang on, what!? If not them then who? Best and Murray are obviously up there as well but nobody else. POC, POM and SOB were easily our "star" players in the pack coming into the tournament. And Sexton is one of the best 10s in the world.

Best, Murray, Heaslip, Henshaw? Healy would be up there if fully fit.

The most important player to the entire effort was probably Mike Ross.

So no, I don't really buy that the 5 players we lost were the 5 best players we had.

rrpc

jm08 wrote: »

Ireland lost away to Italy with a lot worse injuries (including Peter O'Mahony on the wing) and injuries were not accepted as an excuse for losing. The coach lost his job.

The damage was already done before we got to the Italy game. Before the World Cup we had an abysmal six nations. We started off beating England and then barely beat Scotland, got beaten by Wales and France and just about hung on to beat Italy by 2 points.

After the World Cup we lost two drew one and won two (Scotland and Italy).

The year Kidney lost his job we flattered to deceive by beating Wales and then lost to England, Scotland, drew with France and lost to Italy.

The record in those three years for the 6N was W6, D2, L7. Do people not remember this? In fact since the grand slam our record was W9, D2, L9.

The injuries were possibly a reason for the loss to Italy in 2013, but the record had been horrendous anyway.

Just as a contrast, since Joe took over our record is W8, L2. Our accumulated losses over the two years amounts to just 10 points.

jm08

aimee1 wrote: »

It wasnt just the injuries and the Italy game which cost Kidney. It was our worst championship performance in a long time - 1 win [wales away] and 1 draw [France Home]

His time was up, he was never going to be able to take the team forward. He delivered a slam, and a first ever big win at a RWC but thereafter it was downhill, unless he turned things around in 2013 6n he was never likely to continue beyond that.

No Paul O'Connell or Sexton and a pile of new caps (Paddy Jackson was the outhalf). Of course it was going to be difficult. Injuries were not accepted then, they shouldn't be now.

Teferi

It's strange how some people are delighted we're out the tournament. Bizarre stuff, looking to get the boot in.

jm08

rrpc wrote: »

The damage was already done before we got to the Italy game. Before the World Cup we had an abysmal six nations. We started off beating England and then barely beat Scotland, got beaten by Wales and France and just about hung on to beat Italy by 2 points.

After the World Cup we lost two drew one and won two (Scotland and Italy).

The year Kidney lost his job we flattered to deceive by beating Wales and then lost to England, Scotland, drew with France and lost to Italy.

The record in those three years for the 6N was W6, D2, L7. Do people not remember this? In fact since the grand slam our record was W9, D2, L9.

The injuries were possibly a reason for the loss to Italy in 2013, but the record had been horrendous anyway.

Just as a contrast, since Joe took over our record is W8, L2. Our accumulated losses over the two years amounts to just 10 points.

And how many new caps were there in that 6Ns? POM was a new cap then. No Bowe or Ferris. Murray was very inexperienced. And of course, Paul O'Connell was missing.

Teferi

Kidney was done because he was a poor coach, he didn't move on with the game and the team looked directionless. That Italy game was the final nail (thank god) in the coffin but he was on his way out long before that.

Only when we see a sustained record of poor form under Joe will his position come under fire.

Kidney wasn't fired for a single loss and attempting to make it look like he was is utterly moronic.

rrpc

jm08 wrote: »

No Paul O'Connell or Sexton and a pile of new caps (Paddy Jackson was the outhalf). Of course it was going to be difficult. Injuries were not accepted then, they shouldn't be now.

Ignoring the facts to suit your agenda. Kidney's record since the grand slam was abysmal. The defeat to Italy was the last fibre of the last straw.

jm08

Teferi wrote: »

It's strange how some people are delighted we're out the tournament. Bizarre stuff, looking to get the boot in.

You think people are delighted we are out of the tournament then. A really bizarre take on things.

Teferi

jm08 wrote: »

You think people are delighted we are out of the tournament then. A really bizarre take on things.

lol.

rrpc

jm08 wrote: »

And how many new caps were there in that 6Ns? POM was a new cap then. No Bowe or Ferris. Murray was very inexperienced. And of course, Paul O'Connell was missing.

Murray was very inexperienced? Yet two years before was deemed experienced enough to start in an RWC quarter final.

jm08

rrpc wrote: »

Ignoring the facts to suit your agenda. Kidney's record since the grand slam was abysmal. The defeat to Italy was the last fibre of the last straw.

I'm making the point that Schmidt should be judged in a similar way to Kidney. I don't think Schmidt should get the same treatment of Kidney which in my opinion was disgraceful.

gucci

.ak wrote: »

It really isn't being over used. I'm surprised you think a team can lose their 5 best players going into a quarter final and win it. It's THE reason we lost.

Like, if we just lost sexton going into it I'd be worried, never mind Payne, poc, Pom, and sob. These guys are game changers. The team we put out would struggle with Italy.

Have a feeling this is going to continue to be an argument that will be right versus wrong with no middle ground. My points below may have been made many times already but to be honest I took a break from reading the tit for tat stuff for yesterday as I went into my glum post world cup depression!

Whether you believe the 5 players are our best, most important or on best form is one element of the argument. But the fact that you are essentially taking out a unit of first choice players (SOB - POM - POC) out of the team really left us up against it. Maybe we could have dealt with the 5 player loss in better fashion if it had have been spread a little bit more across the team.

Also add to that Tommy Bowe going off (coupled with Sextons absence) so early so we lost a significant aerial target man for the many kick offs and returns meant our go to game plan when we needed to have cool heads and re compose ourselves was really effected.

jm08

rrpc wrote: »

Murray was very inexperienced? Yet two years before was deemed experienced enough to start in an RWC quarter final.

I actually think Murray did fine considering the inexperience of his half back partners. There were many calls for his head though from certain quarters for a couple of years there.

rrpc

jm08 wrote: »

I'm making the point that Schmidt should be judged in a similar way to Kidney. I don't think Schmidt should get the same treatment of Kidney which in my opinion was disgraceful.

But you're not making that point. You're trying to make out they are similar situations when they're not, they're not even close.

Kidney's record dictated his treatment. And we're only talking about his treatment here on boards. He got a free ride in the press on the basis of his record with Munster, but eventually that coin became debased.