Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread V

CMOTDibbler

AdamD wrote: »

Meh. There are serious numbers of posts saying we can't start McCloskey because its 'unknown', 'we have no idea how it'll go' etc.

Its not unknown. We have a fair idea, we've seen the guy play at European level. Yes its a step up, but its obvious the guy has the ability and its not some massive unknown as to how players perform when they do step up, its usually as expected.

The logic for selecting him is flawed though. It's based on nothing but a hope that he'll be better than Henshaw. But then that bet is hedged by moving Henshaw to 13 and possibly Payne to 15.

All this to "see" how McCloskey goes at 12.

irishbucsfan

AdamD wrote: »

Meh. There are serious numbers of posts saying we can't start McCloskey because its 'unknown', 'we have no idea how it'll go' etc.

Its not unknown. We have a fair idea, we've seen the guy play at European level. Yes its a step up, but its obvious the guy has the ability and its not some massive unknown as to how players perform when they do step up, its usually as expected.

Sure, don't advocate a player because hes not good enough, but this 'unknown' stuff is utter bollocks. By the logic in this thread the only team a player is allowed to make their debut against is Italy and that is inherently conservative.

McCloskey's ability is not unknown. Noone really means that.

What's unknown is whether he offers an improvement over Henshaw. Quite difficult to argue that I'd say.

Billysays no

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

The logic for selecting him is flawed though. It's based on nothing but a hope that he'll be better than Henshaw. But then that bet is hedged by moving Henshaw to 13 and possibly Payne to 15.

All this to "see" how McCloskey goes at 12.

And this is bad for the Irish team?

CMOTDibbler

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

The logic for selecting him is flawed though. It's based on nothing but a hope that he'll be better than Henshaw. But then that bet is hedged by moving Henshaw to 13 and possibly Payne to 15.

All this to "see" how McCloskey goes at 12.

Eh, no it isn't. People want him selected because they think him being selected will make the team stronger than him not being selected. He has patently been the best 12 in Ireland this season, so saying it's "based on nothing but a hope" is rubbish, it's based on watching rugby and making a qualitative judgement.

CMOTDibbler

Billysays no wrote: »

And this is bad for the Irish team?

That word 'team' might be a hint for you.

molloyjh

AdamD wrote: »

Meh. There are serious numbers of posts saying we can't start McCloskey because its 'unknown', 'we have no idea how it'll go' etc.

Its not unknown. We have a fair idea, we've seen the guy play at European level. Yes its a step up, but its obvious the guy has the ability and its not some massive unknown as to how players perform when they do step up, its usually as expected.

Sure, don't advocate a player because hes not good enough, but this 'unknown' stuff is utter bollocks. By the logic in this thread the only team a player is allowed to make their debut against is Italy and that is inherently conservative.

Exactly who has said that McCloskey shouldn't start? I've seen a lot of people give valid reasons why he may not start in response to posters saying he has to. But that's a completely different thing.

And boiling the responses down to "unknown" is just wrong. The reasons people have put forward for starting Henshaw is down to things like greater familiarity with the people he'll be playing alongside, the way the team will be playing and yes the fact that he is a proven performer at this level. All these things factor into the decisions made by coaches. And rightly so. Only loons ignore them.

It's incredible how after winning back to back titles for the first time in decades people are still queueing up to complain. And complain about the most successful coach this country has ever seen. Of course you all think you know better. Sure aren't you on the Internet. It's bloody painful, depressing rubbish. With supporters like these....

CMOTDibbler

Harley Uptight Light wrote: »

Eh, no it isn't. People want him selected because they think him being selected will make the team stronger than him not being selected. He has patently been the best 12 in Ireland this season, so saying it's "based on nothing but a hope" is rubbish, it's based on watching rugby and making a qualitative judgement.

Patently?

Maybe I've missed something but has he been 'patently' the best in international rugby?

I've seen him play and there's no doubting his talent, but starting him with unfamiliar players at a very high level is not going to guarantee that he'll be better than Henshaw. Or that he'll strengthen the team.

I'll leave that sort of decision to the people who are paid to make them.

Billysays no

molloyjh wrote: »

Exactly who has said that McCloskey shouldn't start? I've seen a lot of people give valid reasons why he may not start in response to posters saying he has to. But that's a completely different thing.

And boiling the responses down to "unknown" is just wrong. The reasons people have put forward for starting Henshaw is down to things like greater familiarity with the people he'll be playing alongside, the way the team will be playing and yes the fact that he is a proven performer at this level. All these things factor into the decisions made by coaches. And rightly so. Only loons ignore them.

It's incredible how after winning back to back titles for the first time in decades people are still queueing up to complain. And complain about the most successful coach this country has ever seen. Of course you all think you know better. Sure aren't you on the Internset. It's bloody painful, depressing rubbish. With supporters like these....

Hands held up. Ya got me

wp_rathead

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Patently?

Maybe I've missed something but has he been 'patently' the best in international rugby?

I've seen him play and there's no doubting his talent, but starting him with unfamiliar players at a very high level is not going to guarantee that he'll be better than Henshaw. Or that he'll strengthen the team.

I'll leave that sort of decision to the people who are paid to make them.

This thread is going in circles

People saying McCloskey is form 12 in Ireland isn't a dig at Henshaw - particularly when Henshaw doesn't play 12 (for club) so the poster has a point - McCloskey is the form 12..

Imo McCloskey 12 and Henshaw 13 would be very exciting
But Henshaw 12 and Payne 13 is very solid and trusted
Both great options and great we able have these debates
Imagine we were all struggling to find centres, now we are littered with options

Also comments such as "I'll leave that sort of decision to the people who are paid to make them" is really unnecessary on a discussion forum..

CMOTDibbler

wp_rathead wrote: »

This thread is going in circles

People saying McCloskey is form 12 in Ireland isn't a dig at Henshaw - particularly when Henshaw doesn't play 12 so the poster has a point - McCloskey is the form 12..

Imo McCloskey 12 and Henshaw 13 would be very exciting
But Henshaw 12 and Payne 13 is very solid and trusted
Both great options and great we able have these debates
Imagine we were all struggling to find centres, now we are littered with options

Also comments such as "I'll leave that sort of decision to the people who are paid to make them" is really unnecessary on a discussion forum..

Sometimes people need to be reminded that it is a discussion forum and they can write all the outrage they like but will change nothing.

Btw I don't believe it's a dig at Henshaw to suggest McCloskey. I've already said what I think it is.

Yeah_Right

Billysays no wrote: »

I didn't say I want Ireland to lose. However I have no doubts Ireland will lose. And then maybe joe will get serious for the need to reward players on form rather than this cronyism. And with the election around the corner I'm sounding like those lot. I appreciate rugby is a team sport but by selecting so many misfiring links in the hope that the chain will work is simply incredulous.

I've been trying to remember all those successful international teams through out the years that picked their entire match day squad based purely on the players' club form. It seems so obvious that it must have happened on hundreds of occasions but I can't think of any. Can you name a few for me?

The Rape of Lucretia

wp_rathead wrote: »

Imo McCloskey 12 and Henshaw 13 would be very exciting
But Henshaw 12 and Payne 13 is very solid and trusted

McC and Henshaw may well get a run, but not because it would be exciting.
Exciting is the thrill of the uncertain. Coaches dont do uncertain. They want to control and deal with the known as far as possible - sport is uncertain enough as it is unless you are a Jamaincan sprinter. It is their job to win, not gamble. We the fans, like the thrill of the chase, the excitement of the unknown quantity, and the hope that it will yield something new and great. But thats us amateurs. A coach cannot indulge himself in such fancies. Rather, if he feels such excitement - he is probably making the wrong selection.

Billysays no

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Sometimes people need to be reminded that it is a discussion forum and they can write all the outrage they like but will change nothing.

Btw I don't believe it's a dig at Henshaw to suggest McCloskey. I've already said what I think it is.

Can I say I am utterly outraged by your opinion

AdamD

molloyjh wrote: »

Exactly who has said that McCloskey shouldn't start? I've seen a lot of people give valid reasons why he may not start in response to posters saying he has to. But that's a completely different thing.

And boiling the responses down to "unknown" is just wrong. The reasons people have put forward for starting Henshaw is down to things like greater familiarity with the people he'll be playing alongside, the way the team will be playing and yes the fact that he is a proven performer at this level. All these things factor into the decisions made by coaches. And rightly so. Only loons ignore them.

It's incredible how after winning back to back titles for the first time in decades people are still queueing up to complain. And complain about the most successful coach this country has ever seen. Of course you all think you know better. Sure aren't you on the Internet. It's bloody painful, depressing rubbish. With supporters like these....

The decision hasn't been made yet. I'm complaining about posts in this thread being conservative, not Joe Schmidt. You'll notice he wasn't mentioned once in my post if you take the time to actually read it.

wp_rathead

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

McC and Henshaw may well get a run, but not because it would be exciting.
Exciting is the thrill of the uncertain. Coaches dont do uncertain. They want to control and deal with the known as far as possible - sport is uncertain enough as it is unless you are a Jamaincan sprinter. It is their job to win, not gamble. We the fans, like the thrill of the chase, the excitement of the unknown quantity, and the hope that it will yield something new and great. But thats us amateurs. A coach cannot indulge himself in such fancies. Rather, if he feels such excitement - he is probably making the wrong selection.

yes i meant exciting for us fans

former total

irishbucsfan wrote: »

McCloskey's ability is not unknown. Noone really means that.

What's unknown is whether he offers an improvement over Henshaw. Quite difficult to argue that I'd say.

McCloskey's form is not unknown. His true level is very much unknown.

I'm also very unclear how the selection/non-selection of McCloskey became the litmus test of the coach's conservatism, considering the guy he'd replace is younger than him and had never played 12 (in a meaningful game) until Joe took a punt on it.

Billysays no

AdamD wrote: »

The decision hasn't been made yet. I'm complaining about posts in this thread being conservative, not Joe Schmidt. You'll notice he wasn't mentioned once in my post if you take the time to actually read it.

Do remember most posters don't have time to read a post before supplying an opinion. Hands up, guilty again

molloyjh

wp_rathead wrote: »

People saying McCloskey is form 12 in Ireland isn't a dig at Henshaw

Has anyone said it is? People seem to want to polarise this debate into a case of you are with us or against us. I think pretty much everyone here agrees that McCloskey is a massive talent and deserves to have a crack at the international game. There are very few, if any, posters making any kind of absolute statement about McCloskey not deserving to start. The absolute statements in that regard are coming from a select few who think he should start because of his form for Ulster. Most others are simply saying that there is more to it than that and as a result it's less likely to happen. Which is a fair and balanced perspective.

molloyjh

AdamD wrote: »

The decision hasn't been made yet. I'm complaining about posts in this thread being conservative, not Joe Schmidt. You'll notice he wasn't mentioned once in my post if you take the time to actually read it.

I should probably clarify that the first 2 paragraphs were in response to your post whole the 3rd was a generic response to some of the posts I've seen here in general. That wasn't clear in the post so apologies.

Billysays no

former total wrote: »

McCloskey's form is not unknown. His true level is very much unknown.

I'm also very unclear how the selection/non-selection of McCloskey became the litmus test of the coach's conservatism, considering the guy he'd replace is younger than him and had never played 12 (in a meaningful game) until Joe took a punt on it.

On the opposite rob Kearney's form is known, Dave Kearney's form is known, simon zebos form is known. And do you want to play confirmed ****e or play individuals who have played some meaningful rugby this season. Or maybe I missed your point!!!!

former total

Billysays no wrote: »

On the opposite rob Kearney's form is known, Dave Kearney's form is known, simon zebos form is known. And do you want to play confirmed ****e or play individuals who have played some meaningful rugby this season. Or maybe I missed your point!!!!

Yes. You took the exact opposite meaning from what was typed.

Billysays no

Its good that now its out in the open. We should play confirmed muffins over new talent. I love this Joe Schmidt team. What a complete ......

wp_rathead

molloyjh wrote: »

Has anyone said it is? People seem to want to polarise this debate into a case of you are with us or against us. I think pretty much everyone here agrees that McCloskey is a massive talent and deserves to have a crack at the international game. There are very few, if any, posters making any kind of absolute statement about McCloskey not deserving to start. The absolute statements in that regard are coming from a select few who think he should start because of his form for Ulster. Most others are simply saying that there is more to it than that and as a result it's less likely to happen. Which is a fair and balanced perspective.

Ha, again, this thread is going in circles
we are actually agreeing with each other mollyjh
I don't think McCloskey will start either
And I said what you quoted in relation to CMOTDibbler saying the following:

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

I've seen him play and there's no doubting his talent, but starting him with unfamiliar players at a very high level is not going to guarantee that he'll be better than Henshaw. Or that he'll strengthen the team.

Plus the poster rightly pointed out that he wasn't having a dig - I read it wrong initially

Anyhow, what are the odds of a Joe curveball and we see Marshall at 13 :pac:

.ak

What I don't get is why people are getting their knickers in a twist over the suggestion of McCloskey starting against Italy and working his way into the starting line up as opposed to be given the jersey in the most important home game of the season?

Do I think McCloskey is the best centre in Ireland right now? I absolutely do. I've thought that for some time now. It's not just his size but his feel for the game, his ability to read space and exploit it with a full house skill set. However the guy is a kid and has a whole heap of years playing in green in front of him. What does it matter if he's given more time to develop into the role? We can afford the game time. It's not like one of henshaw or Payne are retiring next year.

Henshaw is a brilliant example. He's taken to international games like a duck to water... But does anyone remember his first cap? He was a bit shakey. But it didn't matter because it was an AI test. Since then he's grown into the role. Imagine we just dumped him in against Wales that year? I'm not sure it would've worked out the same.

People need a bit of patience here. Payne and henshaw have earned the right to be first choice, it's up to McCloskey to get his way into that first choice spot but it can only be earned through opportunity against lesser sides or less important games.

In the long run it'll suit the player and the team.

.ak

Joe Schmidt wrote:

Is putting him in against 110kg of hurtling Jamie Roberts or 104kg of footwork and fend that Jonathan Davies can deliver (the best thing for him)? Or is it sitting in the squad and not playing? Or is it him building that confidence that he's started to demonstrate through the Pro12 and one European start?

This is a great window for him to get game-time.

It doesn't mean we're not investing in him. We're investing in him because playing that Pro12 rugby is an opportunity for him to keep going.

JS in regards to Ringrose. Couldn't agree more!

Billysays no

.ak wrote: »

What I don't get is why people are getting their knickers in a twist over the suggestion of McCloskey starting against Italy and working his way into the starting line up as opposed to be given the jersey in the most important home game of the season?

Do I think McCloskey is the best centre in Ireland right now? I absolutely do. I've thought that for some time now. It's not just his size but his feel for the game, his ability to read space and exploit it with a full house skill set. However the guy is a kid and has a whole heap of years playing in green in front of him. What does it matter if he's given more time to develop into the role? We can afford the game time. It's not like one of henshaw or Payne are retiring next year.

Henshaw is a brilliant example. He's taken to international games like a duck to water... But does anyone remember his first cap? He was a bit shakey. But it didn't matter because it was an AI test. Since then he's grown into the role. Imagine we just dumped him in against Wales that year? I'm not sure it would've worked out the same.

People need a bit of patience here. Payne and henshaw have earned the right to be first choice, it's up to McCloskey to get his way into that first choice spot but it can only be earned through opportunity against lesser sides or less important games.

In the long run it'll suit the player and the team.

Its a very different thing to compare henshaw to McCloskey. Henshaw was groomed to be the bod replacement for a reason I am still at a loss for understanding. He is nothing like bod. He is not in the slightest bit exciting. On the counter McCloskey is hugely exciting.

thomond2006

Billysays no wrote: »

Its a very different thing to compare henshaw to McCloskey. Henshaw was groomed to be the bod replacement for a reason I am still at a loss for understanding. He is nothing like bod. He is not in the slightest bit exciting. On the counter McCloskey is hugely exciting.

Give over. It's beyond old. You don't rate Henshaw in the slightest. Everyone gets it.

Billysays no

thomond2006 wrote: »

Give over. It's beyond old. You don't rate Henshaw in the slightest. Everyone gets it.

I suggest that McCloskey is better and that Robbie is limited but was favoured for some reason that my brain still struggles with. Must be a brain issue :-)

English Lurker

.ak wrote: »

What I don't get is why people are getting their knickers in a twist over the suggestion of McCloskey starting against Italy and working his way into the starting line up as opposed to be given the jersey in the most important home game of the season?

Because they think his presence in said game would make it more likely Ireland would win it.

Billysays no

English Lurker wrote: »

Because they think his presence in said game would make it more likely Ireland would win it.

Exactly☺

Billysays no

thomond2006 wrote: »

Give over. It's beyond old. You don't rate Henshaw in the slightest. Everyone gets it.

In truth thomond I wouldn't have zebo on a Munster team never mind an Irish team. I thought he was going to do Munster a favour and leave.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

We should start McCloskey at 9. The Welsh will never see it coming.

Billysays no

We should start McCloskey. Otherwise no faith. Screw the idea of ever giving bod that chance. There has to be a leap of faith. Bod got it. Of all the players I have witnessed (from mike Gibson, Colin Patterson, Willie duggan Fergus Slattery etc...) McCloskey is it. So Joe do it. Cut this crap team selection and see the new bod!!!!

English Lurker

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

We should start McCloskey at 9. The Welsh will never see it coming.

Mike Philips-esque.

Billysays no

English Lurker wrote: »

Mike Philips-esque.

As you see it doesn't matter. We are a joke of a team and many will joke about us after this 6n. Don't think Joe will be involved in the lions. That would be a joke too far

RichieRich89

.ak wrote: »

JS in regards to Ringrose. Couldn't agree more!

I thought you said that he shouldn't be starting in the Pro12 and in Europe yet?

mfceiling

Billysays no wrote: »

As you see it doesn't matter. We are a joke of a team and many will joke about us after this 6n. Don't think Joe will be involved in the lions. That would be a joke too far

We are a joke? We're back to back 6N champions.

Have you actually watched this ireland team at all?

Buer

Billysays no wrote:

As you see it doesn't matter. We are a joke of a team and many will joke about us after this 6n. Don't think Joe will be involved in the lions. That would be a joke too far

Someone is a joke alright.

1eg0a3xv7b82of

too many unknowns for Ireland to win 3 in a row
what white and furlong offer at th,
how will toner go without the lad from Pinergy beside him,
How Best will go with the added pressure,
Can our key players find their true form starting Sat and be able to repeat.

I think out tour to South Africa could be alot more enjoyable for us than this 6 nations.

1eg0a3xv7b82of

too many unknowns for Ireland to win 3 in a row
what white and furlong offer at th,
how will toner go without the lad from Pinergy beside him,
How Best will go with the added pressure,
Can our key players find their true form starting Sat and be able to repeat.

I think out tour to South Africa could be alot more enjoyable for us than this 6 nations.

.ak

RichieRich89 wrote: »

I thought you said that he shouldn't be starting in the Pro12 and in Europe yet?

When did I ever say that? I said exactly that he should be using the pro12 to cut his teeth?

.ak

English Lurker wrote: »

Because they think his presence in said game would make it more likely Ireland would win it.

That's fairly just blind speculation though. He has the attributes but so did henshaw, the first cap can be a daunting one. We're in no rush to blood him.

former total

If O'Brien needs a scan, then chances are he's going to miss out. Blaaaah.

Rob Kearney also a doubt (per the Indo). People might get their wish after all.

Pink Fairy

former total wrote: »

If O'Brien needs a scan, then chances are he's going to miss out. Blaaaah.

Rob Kearney also a doubt (per the Indo). People might get their wish after all.

Reports I heard yesterday stated that Payne was filling in at FB because RK was feeling a twinge?

molloyjh

Pink Fairy wrote: »

Reports I heard yesterday stated that Payne was filling in at FB because RK was feeling a twinge?

Ah Jesus, really!? Having a load of injuries up front just isn't enough, we now need to start losing backs as well. I'm getting very worried about this Championship now. It's not like Payne has a great injury profile for Ireland himself.

.ak

.ak wrote: »

Henshaw is a brilliant example. He's taken to international games like a duck to water... But does anyone remember his first cap? He was a bit shakey. But it didn't matter because it was an AI test. Since then he's grown into the role. Imagine we just dumped him in against Wales that year? I'm not sure it would've worked out the same.

I don't think you remember his first cap actually. It was on that Canada and USA tour. He played for about 10 mins against Aus in 2013 when we got hammered, and then his first real start came in the 6N.

I don't think McCloskey playing against USA, Canada, for for 10 mins against someone decent would make much of a difference as to whether he's ready to start or not, he is either way.

Buer

Yup, got a couple of caps for our weakened tests during the Lions tour which was ideal to ease him in...he was pretty poor too, I vaguely recall.

Vagueness due to the fact the games were on late night Irish time as evidenced by all of our drunk posting in the match threads.

Buer

Buer wrote: »

Yup, got a couple of caps for our weakened tests during the Lions tour which was ideal to ease him in...he was pretty poor too, I vaguely recall.

It's also worth mentioning he can't have been much older than 19 and the Ireland squad was missing something like 35 players.

Tbh I can't remember how good or bad he was but I'm sure the forum narrative will be that he was poor, because that's what suits.

kuang1

former total wrote: »

If O'Brien needs a scan, then chances are he's going to miss out. Blaaaah.

Rob Kearney also a doubt (per the Indo). People might get their wish after all.

Are there reports of him needing a scan?

CMOTDibbler

Leandro Round Billboard wrote: »

too many unknowns for Ireland to win 3 in a row
what white and furlong offer at th,
how will toner go without the lad from Pinergy beside him,
How Best will go with the added pressure,
Can our key players find their true form starting Sat and be able to repeat.

I think out tour to South Africa could be alot more enjoyable for us than this 6 nations.

Not sure if you realise this but our match against Wales is on Sunday...