Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread V

Anatom

So, moving away from the Madigan / Jackson / OH line for a bit. (Tbh, we're on a hiding to nothing until the team is announced and its been discussed at considerable length already...)

Where is this game going to be won or lost? Are the Welsh going to do what's expected and launch the big boys into green jerseys until we crack, or is there going to be something else on offer? Are we going to kick around them or try to take them on up front and rely on home and crowd advantage to push us over the line?

sydthebeat

same sh!t , different day ........

Anatom

So, moving away from the Madigan / Jackson / OH line for a bit. (Tbh, we're on a hiding to nothing until the team is announced and its been discussed at considerable length already...)

Where is this game going to be won or lost? Are the Welsh going to do what's expected and launch the big boys into green jerseys until we crack, or is there going to be something else on offer? Are we going to kick around them or try to take them on up front and rely on home and crowd advantage to push us over the line?

Mahatma Geansai

Deleted User wrote: »

Try to contradict your own logic less. It might allow some points actually register.

Riskymove

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

Tomas O'Leary has played wing (and maybe centre) for Munster. Lets select him on the bench while we are at it.

being forced to play in a position is hardly the same as being proper cover

molloyjh

former total wrote: »

Ireland is a province?

I think the point is that if Jackson looks good with the best provincial back line then surely he would look good with the best national back line, which should (in theory at least) be as good or better than the Ulster back line. Seems like fair logic to me if we want to boil things down to that level of simplicity.

Which of course we shouldn't do, but then this is the Internet.

Hagz

jacothelad wrote: »

Have another read at my post. Get all the way through it. Get to the bit about the Ireland back-line. you said he only looked good because of the backs. I asked how good would he look playing with an even better one....the Irish one. It's not rocket science.

You said the national back-line is surely of a higher standard than Ulster's back-line - which it of course is.

Then you hypothesised that if Jackson looks good with Ulster's back-line, imagine how much better he'd look in the national back-line. Which is a moot argument because it completely disregards the fact that your moving from club level footy to test level footy. Not to mention the fact that you could apply that to any of the out-halves in the country. 'Carty looks alright with Connacht, imagine how much better he'd look with the national back-line'. Except he wouldn't, because he'd crumble under the pressure of test level rugby.

He has the luxury of playing in the best provincial back-line in the country. That inevitably plays to his advantage when it comes to how the public perceive him. Not much to debate there. If Keatley was playing with the best back-line in the country he'd still be a completely average out-half but he wouldn't be so low in the minds of the public.

Bazzo

sullivlo wrote: »

Not sure the exact rules and whether they apply to Ireland internationals, but in womens AIL1, a player cannot play in two games in 24 hours. We had fielding issues when our interpros were away so our seconds lined out for our firsts and couldn't play again that weekend.

I don't know if that applies or not but the games are more than 24 hours apart anyway.

Hagz

awec wrote: »

You think the Ulster back line is better than the Ireland back line?

There's an interesting thought...

I'm sorry to disappoint you but nowhere did I say that.

kuang1

Maybe what I'm saying here is too simplistic but here goes...
(Should say first that I do realise that not every player outside Sunday's 23 will be released back to their club)
So if McCloskey can only play at 12, we all (well the majority anyway) acknowledge that he'll either start or just not feature on Sunday right?
He hasn't been released back to Ulster. That fact, combined with reading Easterby's interview
http://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/six-nations/2016/0203/765152-simon-easterby-ireland-wales-argentina-mccloskey/
and what he had to say about him makes me a little optimistic that he may well start the game.

And by the way I was disappointed with the level of fervour that followed after one poster posted "the team" a few pages back.
THAT'S ONE PERSON'S VIEW ON THE TEAM...NOT FACT! Sean O Brien still starting from everything I've heard.

Mahatma Geansai

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

Thoroughly unsurprising

awec

Hagz wrote: »

You said the national back-line is surely of a higher standard than Ulster's back-line - which it of course is.

Then you hypothesised that if Jackson looks good with Ulster's back-line, imagine how much better he'd look in the national back-line. Which is a moot argument because it completely disregards the fact that your moving from club level footy to test level footy.

He has the luxury of playing in the best provincial back-line in the country. That inevitably plays to his advantage when it comes to how the public perceive him. Not much to debate there. If Keatley was playing with the best back-line in the country he'd still be a completely average out-half but he wouldn't be so low in the minds of the public.

You're right.

It's like when Johnny Sexton was the best out half in Europe purely because he played in the best back line in Europe, right?

Riskymove

kuang1 wrote: »

And by the way I was disappointed with the level of fervour that followed after one poster posted "the team" a few pages back.
THAT'S ONE PERSON'S VIEW ON THE TEAM...NOT FACT! Sean O Brien still starting from everything I've heard.

Nature abhors a vacuum basically

in the absence of the team until very late in the process it doesn't take much to start off some posters

Mr Tickle

Anatom wrote: »

So, moving away from the Madigan / Jackson / OH line for a bit. (Tbh, we're on a hiding to nothing until the team is announced and its been discussed at considerable length already...)

Where is this game going to be won or lost? Are the Welsh going to do what's expected and launch the big boys into green jerseys until we crack, or is there going to be something else on offer? Are we going to kick around them or try to take them on up front and rely on home and crowd advantage to push us over the line?

It's hard to see how they won't make kindling out of our back row at the break down. Even with SOB we'll need to be on serious form. TOD will need to play out of his skin if he's involved.

Riskymove

awec wrote: »

You're right.

It's like when Johnny Sexton was the best out half in Europe purely because he played in the best back line in Europe, right?

tbh this is a pointless argument, his points are not actually being accurately portrayed

he thinks Jackson is not as good as people believe due to who he plays with, that's all...an opinion...others can have other views

he didn't say anything about Sexton

awec

Riskymove wrote: »

tbh this is a pointless argument, his points are not actually being accurately portrayed

he thinks Jackson is not as good as people believe due to who he plays with, that's all...an opinion...others can have other views

he didn't say anything about Sexton

I know he didn't, I am just using Sexton as an example of how daft that argument is.

Sexton was (and is) really good because he is really good. Similarly, Jackson looks really good because shockingly he's actually really good. :eek:

CMOTDibbler

kuang1 wrote: »

Maybe what I'm saying here is too simplistic but here goes...
(Should say first that I do realise that not every player outside Sunday's 23 will be released back to their club)
So if McCloskey can only play at 12, we all (well the majority anyway) acknowledge that he'll either start or just not feature on Sunday right?
He hasn't been released back to Ulster. That fact, combined with reading Easterby's interview
http://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/six-nations/2016/0203/765152-simon-easterby-ireland-wales-argentina-mccloskey/
and what he had to say about him makes me a little optimistic that he may well start the game.

He could also bench. It's not completely off the wall. If Madigan is also on the bench, an injury on the wing could be sorted by a reshuffle with McCloskey coming into the centre.

Riskymove

awec wrote: »

I know he didn't, I am just using Sexton as an example of how daft that argument is.

but his argument is not that any outhalf who plays with a top backline is in reality not that good!

his argument is on one player, Jackson

Hagz

awec wrote: »

You're right.

It's like when Johnny Sexton was the best out half in Europe purely because he played in the best back line in Europe, right?

Your focusing in on one aspect of my original argument and making it out to be the crux of the argument. Johnny Sexton played in a better back-line yes, but Johnny Sexton played individually at a very high level with Leinster and displayed a multi faceted style with strong tactical kicking, attacking, passing etc. He also went on to replicate that at national level. Jackson aint done any of that. No other current fly-half in Ireland has.

MJohnston

Riskymove wrote: »

tbh this is a pointless argument, his points are not actually being accurately portrayed

he thinks Jackson is not as good as people believe due to who he plays with, that's all...an opinion...others can have other views

“All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others.”

Hagz

awec wrote: »

Sexton was (and is) really good because he is really good. Similarly, Jackson looks really good because shockingly he's actually really good. :eek:

This is precisely where we are at odds. I didn't say Jackson looks really good because he plays with the best back-line in the country. I never said Jackson looks really good. Jackson doesn't look really good. He consistently looks nothing more than decent. I simply said that playing with the best back-line in the country plays to his advantage.

Riskymove

MJohnston wrote: »

“All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others.”

when both sides believe they have put forward robust, sophisticated and well supported opinions, the argument becomes pretty futile

awec

Hagz wrote: »

Your focusing in on one aspect of my original argument and making it out to be the crux of the argument. Johnny Sexton played in a better back-line yes, but Johnny Sexton played individually at a very high level with Leinster and displayed a multi faceted style with strong tactical kicking, attacking, passing etc. He also went on to replicate that at national level. Jackson aint done any of that. No other current fly-half in Ireland has.

Of course he hasn't, he has never had the chance. :pac:

How many times has Jackson started in a first choice Irish team?

Hagz wrote: »

This is precisely where we are at odds. I didn't say Jackson looks really good because he plays with the best back-line in the country. I never said Jackson looks really good. Jackson doesn't look really good. He consistently looks nothing more than decent. I simply said that playing with the best back-line in the country plays to his advantage.

Honestly, have you ever actually watched Jackson play?

CMOTDibbler

Riskymove wrote: »

when both sides believe they have put forward robust, sophisticated and well supported opinions, the argument becomes pretty futile

Both sides always believe that.

The rest of us may differ

molloyjh

awec wrote: »

I know he didn't, I am just using Sexton as an example of how daft that argument is.

Totally different player in a totally different situation that isn't at all comparable I'm afraid. I don't subscribe to what Hagz is saying myself, but it can be addressed by talking about Jackson as opposed to making up some irrelevant comparison.

You could talk about Jacksons passing game, his running game and his tackling (which always impressed me given that he's such a small lad). The point about Peinaar being the controlling influence may once have been the case but I don't think it is any longer. Jackson looks to be the man in charge out there these days from what I've seen. Some of his kicking from hand this season has been pretty nice as well and he has so much more vision than Madigan does IMO. Again I refer back to the Scotland game in 2013 as an example of a time when Jackson showed a lot of what he can do in a performance that was above anything Mads has done for Ireland.

His lack of versatility has prevented him benching and his goal kicking has hurt his chances of starting. Both combined have meant he's gotten less game time than he needed to show what he can do. Again this is a case of there being good reasons for him not getting the caps, while at the same time not being completely reflective of what he's deserved.

Mr Tickle

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

He could also bench. It's not completely off the wall. If Madigan is also on the bench, an injury on the wing could be sorted by a reshuffle with McCloskey coming into the centre.

I actually hadn't looked at that possibility. Use Zebo to cover the wings from the pitch.

The only thing there is that joe has tended to stick to like-for-like subs.

thomond2006

I hope, but don't expect, to see Marmion on the bench.

Hagz

awec wrote: »

Honestly, have you ever actually watched Jackson play?

That's where we should end it. I have to go to college anyway.

Anatom

Mr Tickle wrote: »

It's hard to see how they won't make kindling out of our back row at the break down. Even with SOB we'll need to be on serious form. TOD will need to play out of his skin if he's involved.

Nice, descriptive expression there Mr. Tickle. Let's hope it doesn't come true.

You're right about TOD though. This is a big opportunity for him and I'd say he'll give it everything. Probably still seething from getting injured at exactly the wrong time last year.

Maybe, just maybe, this Welsh team - big and all as they are - won't be as fit and able as our more callow-looking team?

awec

Hagz wrote: »

That's where we should end it. I have to go to college anyway.

Sorry Hagz if I have come across as abrasive or cheeky, but that is one opinion I really strongly disagree with.

molloyjh

thomond2006 wrote: »

I hope, but don't expect, to see Marmion on the bench.

Is that because you don't want to see Reddan there or because you think Marmion has done something to deserve it. Because I'm not convinced the latter is the case at all.

CMOTDibbler

Mr Tickle wrote: »

I actually hadn't looked at that possibility. Use Zebo to cover the wings from the pitch.

The only thing there is that joe has tended to stick to like-for-like subs.

With the backs, it's always a compromise given there's really only one slot.

Madigan does give us the option of having a specialist in the 23 shirt and the fact that we have players on the pitch who also cover more positions helps too. Henshaw could move to the wing at a pinch. I've seen him slot in there for Connacht on occasion and he didn't look out of place.

kuang1

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

He could also bench. It's not completely off the wall. If Madigan is also on the bench, an injury on the wing could be sorted by a reshuffle with McCloskey coming into the centre.

I hadn't thought of that either tbh.

Although my head starts to overheat when I start thinking of all the possible combinations and reshuffles depending on which of 11,12,13,14,15 gets injured!

former total

Hagz wrote: »

That's where we should end it. I have to go to college anyway.

Why bother? You just got SCHOOLED here yo. :pac:

(I agree with you btw, I don't think Jackson has shown enough to be clearly ahead of Madigan)

wittycynic

If Paddy Jackson were a top quality outhalf, he would be pushing for a starting position in the Irish team. That's what being a top quality out half means. He's not, so logically no one argues for his inclusion at the expense of Johnny Sexton. Even when Johnny is half fit he gets trotted out ahead of Jackson. We wouldn't be doing rosaries on our hands and knees before every tournament, praying that Johnny stays fit for fear of what might befall us if he isn't, if Paddy were all that.

I would dearly love Jackson to kick on and become a top European out half, but he doesn't appear to be nearing that standard.

jacothelad

Hagz wrote: »

You said the national back-line is surely of a higher standard than Ulster's back-line - which it of course is.

Then you hypothesised that if Jackson looks good with Ulster's back-line, imagine how much better he'd look in the national back-line. Which is a moot argument because it completely disregards the fact that your moving from club level footy to test level footy. Not to mention the fact that you could apply that to any of the out-halves in the country. 'Carty looks alright with Connacht, imagine how much better he'd look with the national back-line'. Except he wouldn't, because he'd crumble under the pressure of test level rugby.

He has the luxury of playing in the best provincial back-line in the country. That inevitably plays to his advantage when it comes to how the public perceive him. Not much to debate there. If Keatley was playing with the best back-line in the country he'd still be a completely average out-half but he wouldn't be so low in the minds of the public.

Without wishing to labour the point, are you saying that Boss, Reddan, Sexton, Madigan, Fitzgerald, T'eo, Ringrose, Kirchner, McFadd3en, Dave Kearney and Rob Kearney make up a back line that is inferior to Ulster's? That's an interesting argument. I suppose they combine to make Sexton look really good...maybe he's just dragged along by his backs....or is it the other way round?

CMOTDibbler

molloyjh wrote: »

Is that because you don't want to see Reddan there or because you think Marmion has done something to deserve it. Because I'm not convinced the latter is the case at all.

Reddan has been in great form since the World Cup and we still need him. I'm disappointed in Marmion, he seems to have plateaued at a kind of half-way house stage in his development for the last year or so. In fact I think Blade has shown more potential in the small amount of time he's been given for Connacht and should be given more.

Player Primary Covers Emergency
Murray 9 10
Reddan 9
Sexton 10 12
Madigan 10 12,15 13
Jackson 10 12
Earls 11 13,14,15 12
Henshaw 12 13,15 14
McCloskey 12 13
Marshall 12 13 10
Payne 13 15
Trimble 14 11 12
Zebo 14 11,15
D.Kearney 14 11 15
R.Kearney 15 11,14


Aye?

(Ireland point of view before the "Henshaw is a 13, Payne is a 15" crew decide to come out from under the bed)

Mr Tickle

Anatom wrote: »

Nice, descriptive expression there Mr. Tickle. Let's hope it doesn't come true.

You're right about TOD though. This is a big opportunity for him and I'd say he'll give it everything. Probably still seething from getting injured at exactly the wrong time last year.

Maybe, just maybe, this Welsh team - big and all as they are - won't be as fit and able as our more callow-looking team?

there's always that chance. if Stander and TOD can put up a decent fight on the ground for the first 60 mins then swap in ruddock to run at them

awec

Delighted to see a table on this thread. Well done emmet

ClanofLams

molloyjh wrote: »

Is that because you don't want to see Reddan there or because you think Marmion has done something to deserve it. Because I'm not convinced the latter is the case at all.

Marmion has played well all season which is more than can be said for Reddan, who was awful against Wasps two weeks ago and that isn't a exaggeration.

ClanofLams

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Reddan has been in great form since the World Cup and we still need him. I'm disappointed in Marmion, he seems to have plateaued at a kind of half-way house stage in his development for the last year or so. In fact I think Blade has shown more potential in the small amount of time he's been given for Connacht and should be given more.

Great form? When? Where???

As for your second point, no Connacht supporter would agree. Marmion is one of Connachts most important players, Blade isn't close to him at this point in time.

errlloyd

I think they improved tables on boards, you seem to just be able to copy and paste from excel now. For example.

Dragons Tries Assists Points
C MeyerFB 0 0 0
A HewittW 1 0 5
A HughesC 0 0 0
A WarrenC 0 0 0
H AmosW 0 0 0
J ToveyFH 1 1 18
C DaviesR 0 0 0
P PriceR 0 0 0
E DeeR 0 0 0
S KnightR 0 0 0
M ScreechL 0 0 0
R LandmanL 0 1 0
J BenjaminR 0 0 0
N CuddF 0 0 0
S AndrewsR 0 0 0
T ThomasH 0 0 0
B StankovichP 0 0 0
B HarrisP 0 0 0
C HillN8 0 0 0
N CrosswellF 0 0 0
S PretoriusSH 0 0 0
G JonesR 0 0 0
N ScottR 0 0 0
Leinster Tries Assists Points
Z KirchnerFB 0 0 0
N ReidR 0 0 0
G RingroseC 0 0 0
B Te'oC 0 0 0
F McFaddenW 0 0 8
I MadiganR 0 0 0
I BossR 0 0 0
J LoughmanR 0 0 0
R StraussR 0 0 0
M BentP 0 0 0
R MolonyL 0 0 0
T BeirneR 0 0 0
D RyanF 0 0 0
P TimminsR 0 0 0
J MurphyN8 0 0 0
J TracyH 0 0 0
P DooleyP 0 0 0
O HeffernanR 0 0 0
H TriggsL 0 0 0
D LeavyF 0 0 0
L McGrathSH 1 0 5
C MarshFH 0 0 0
A ByrneW 0 0 0

former total

ClanofLams wrote: »

Great form? When? Where???

As for your second point, no Connacht supporter would agree. Marmion is one of Connachts most important players, Blade isn't close to him at this point in time.

Reddan has been excellent this season. Whatever problems Leinster had against Wasps, Reddan was the least of our worries. I haven't seen too much of Marmion tbh but he was pretty poor in the RDS a month ago, when Reddan was a deserved man of the match.

Marmion has long been talked about. It's two and a half years since he was first in the Ireland squad. At some point, he's going to have to actually force his way into the squad or he'll be overtaken by Blade, Cooney or McGrath. I don't expect it to happen tomorrow though.

sydthebeat

ClanofLams wrote: »

Marmion has played well all season which is more than can be said for Reddan, who was awful against Wasps two weeks ago and that isn't a exaggeration.

reddan has actually been quite good this season compared to the previous 2.

That being said, i wouldnt have an issue with marmion as 20.... but questions have to be asked why at this stage he cannot usurp a 35 year old scrum half

CMOTDibbler

ClanofLams wrote: »

Marmion has played well all season which is more than can be said for Reddan, who was awful against Wasps two weeks ago and that isn't a exaggeration.

Marmion was headless against Leinster not so long ago. Kept making the wrong decision, was throwing passes at the ground and took the wrong option to take the ball on himself and got turned over at least twice that I remember as well as missing more tackles than he made.

Bazzo

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Marmion was headless against Leinster not so long ago. Kept making the wrong decision, was throwing passes at the ground and took the wrong option to take the ball on himself and got turned over at least twice that I remember as well as missing more tackles than he made.

Genuine question: have you watched all/the majority of his matches this season or just a couple?

He's been in fine form, playing on par with Reddan if you ask me, and pointing to one or two games of his where he wasn't great isn't really fair because Reddan has also had some howlers this season.

True, he hasn't quite reached the 45 match in a row streak where he was picking up man of the match awards and tries for fun that we saw a while back but to say he has been bad isn't true. His box kicking has also come a long way. Seeing as he's more than 10 years younger that's enough for him to be ahead of Reddan alone if you ask me.

Zzippy

molloyjh wrote: »

Is that because you don't want to see Reddan there or because you think Marmion has done something to deserve it. Because I'm not convinced the latter is the case at all.

sydthebeat wrote: »

reddan has actually been quite good this season compared to the previous 2.

That being said, i wouldnt have an issue with marmion as 20.... but questions have to be asked why at this stage he cannot usurp a 35 year old scrum half

Meh, I think Reddan has been having an "Indian summer" formwise this season, but do we wait til he's retired before bringing in younger players? Elsewhere on this thread people were saying Tadhg Furlong should start ahead of White because White is 34 and he's not the future, despite the fact White has been in excellent form this season, probably has a year or two more in him than Reddan does, and is at least starting regularly.

I just hope, whoever is 21 (*not 20, syd ) that Murray doesn't get injured, cos the Welsh 9 is very good himself and I think we need Murray to negate him.

its_phil

sydthebeat wrote: »

reddan has actually been quite good this season compared to the previous 2.

That being said, i wouldnt have an issue with marmion as 20.... but questions have to be asked why at this stage he cannot usurp a 35 year old scrum half

Question him or question coach? Because both are just as fair game as the other in my opinion.

Also, Madigan over Jackson is just bizarre.

Utah_Saint