Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread V

molloyjh

ClanofLams wrote: »

Marmion has played well all season which is more than can be said for Reddan, who was awful against Wasps two weeks ago and that isn't a exaggeration.

Well except that it is. Reddan was quite good in the first half of that game. He's getting on a bit and tired visibly in the second half. His form was also fairly bad immediately after returning from the RWC in fairness. But Marmion hasn't stood out at all for me this season. In fact he hasn't really kicked on from his form of 18 months ago. I'd hoped he would and we could put Reddan out to pasture by the RWC but it just didn't happen. It's starting to look like Luke McGrath might be the guy to take Redsers place at this stage.

ClanofLams

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Marmion was headless against Leinster not so long ago. Kept making the wrong decision, was throwing passes at the ground and took the wrong option to take the ball on himself and got turned over at least twice that I remember as well as missing more tackles than he made.

That's a fair point, he had a bad night but has generally been very good and has been man of the match on multiple occasions, most recently two weeks ago.

Despite what others have said about the Wasps match, Reddan was a big problem in it, he should have been leading Marsh through it but offered nothing. At one stage he broke up the blindside from a scrum then tried to pass back to Marsh on the open side. It was really clueless stuff especially for a guy of his experience.

.ak

Harley Uptight Light wrote: »

I don't think you remember his first cap actually. It was on that Canada and USA tour. He played for about 10 mins against Aus in 2013 when we got hammered, and then his first real start came in the 6N.

I don't think McCloskey playing against USA, Canada, for for 10 mins against someone decent would make much of a difference as to whether he's ready to start or not, he is either way.

Buer wrote: »

Yup, got a couple of caps for our weakened tests during the Lions tour which was ideal to ease him in...he was pretty poor too, I vaguely recall.

Vagueness due to the fact the games were on late night Irish time as evidenced by all of our drunk posting in the match threads.

That's exactly the games I was referring too.

The limited exposure is a much better approach and its stood to henshaw IMO

molloyjh

Zzippy wrote: »

Meh, I think Reddan has been having an "Indian summer" formwise this season, but do we wait til he's retired before bringing in younger players? Elsewhere on this thread people were saying Tadhg Furlong should start ahead of White because White is 34 and he's not the future, despite the fact White has been in excellent form this season, probably has a year or two more in him than Reddan does, and is at least starting regularly.

I just hope, whoever is 21 (*not 20, syd ) that Murray doesn't get injured, cos the Welsh 9 is very good himself and I think we need Murray to negate him.

I don't subscribe to the idea of giving someone game time because they are young. Either they are the best option or they are not. Maybe if there's little between them the age and potential future should count. But that's not the case with Marmion at the moment.

As for White I do like him as a player and was disappointed to see him leave Leinster, but I think Furlong is almost as good in most ways and has that added ability around the park over White. With Maccer behind him I wouldn't be worried about him at the scrum at all. If White was selected over him though I wouldn't be surprised or that bothered at all.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

So glad the site didn't go down when it was supposed to...

molloyjh

its_phil wrote: »

Question him or question coach? Because both are just as fair game as the other in my opinion.

I would say that is true if Marmion was making a real case for himself. Is he though? I don't think that he is at all tbh. It's up to him to force Joe into considering him and has he really done anything to do that? It can't be Joes fault that Marmion just isn't making the step up.

bilston

wittycynic wrote: »

If Paddy Jackson were a top quality outhalf, he would be pushing for a starting position in the Irish team. That's what being a top quality out half means. He's not, so logically no one argues for his inclusion at the expense of Johnny Sexton. Even when Johnny is half fit he gets trotted out ahead of Jackson. We wouldn't be doing rosaries on our hands and knees before every tournament, praying that Johnny stays fit for fear of what might befall us if he isn't, if Paddy were all that.

I would dearly love Jackson to kick on and become a top European out half, but he doesn't appear to be nearing that standard.

Ahhh just when I had decided to leave it alone I read this post.

I'm only to ask this, have you seen Paddy Jackson play this season?

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

bilston wrote: »

Ahhh just when I had decided to leave it alone I read this post.

I'm only to ask this, have you seen Paddy Jackson play this season?

It's weird, the logic some people seem to be going with is Jackson isn't a top class 10 and then they say the difference with Madigan is marginal, which implies he's not a top class 10 either. So if there's barely any difference between them why not pick the guy who has been playing really good rugby all season over the guy whose barely been playing any rugby at all?

molloyjh

.ak wrote: »

That's exactly the games I was referring too.

The limited exposure is a much better approach and its stood to henshaw IMO

It was a better approach for Henshaw maybe, but it isn't a case of one size fits all in fairness. Each player will respond differently to things and its about getting the approach right for the individual. Robbie was a child in 2013, McCloskey is a few years older than that now. Robbie hadn't played at European level, McCloskey has. So add that to the difference in experience levels (between 2013 Henshaw and 2016 McCloskey) the fact they are different people and you basically have a very different situation.

I've said it before that it is entirely possible that McCloskey has done enough in training to get selected. However it is probably more likely that he hasn't. The question basically becomes how much do we trust Joe to get the call right based on what he's seen.

CMOTDibbler

Bazzo wrote: »

Genuine question: have you watched all/the majority of his matches this season or just a couple?

He's been in fine form, playing on par with Reddan if you ask me, and pointing to one or two games of his where he wasn't great isn't really fair because Reddan has also had some howlers this season.

True, he hasn't quite reached the 45 match in a row streak where he was picking up man of the match awards and tries for fun that we saw a while back but to say he has been bad isn't true. His box kicking has also come a long way. Seeing as he's more than 10 years younger that's enough for him to be ahead of Reddan alone if you ask me.

I watch a lot of Connacht games. Probably as many Connacht as Leinster or Munster. Ulster don't really get a look in

Marmion had a good game aginst Ulster even though it was a loss, but the Leinster game was poor as I said above. The away Scarlets game was also quite poor imo.

My abiding view of him is that he seldom can walk and chew gum. He can play a high tempo game, but only in fits and bursts and he becomes blinkered when he does and tends to just keep going in the same direction regardless of where the open spaces are. Then when he slows down, he can become ponderous and indecisive.

The frustrating thing about him is that at times he shows glimpses of what he could be. In the first half against Ulster he was looking up and dinking little kicks over the defense and exploiting gaps and then he just went into his shell in the second half.

Bazzo

molloyjh wrote: »

It was a better approach for Henshaw maybe, but it isn't a case of one size fits all in fairness. Each player will respond differently to things and its about getting the approach right for the individual. Robbie was a child in 2013, McCloskey is a few years older than that now. Robbie hadn't played at European level, McCloskey has. So add that to the difference in experience levels (between 2013 Henshaw and 2016 McCloskey) the fact they are different people and you basically have a very different situation.

I've said it before that it is entirely possible that McCloskey has done enough in training to get selected. However it is probably more likely that he hasn't. The question basically becomes how much do we trust Joe to get the call right based on what he's seen.

Henshaw was Connacht's first choice full back in the Heineken cup in 2012/13. He played at both 13 and 15 in the Heineken cup the following year if memory serves.

I think McCloskey would be fine to start against Wales though. If Kearney is injured I think it's the best choice available to us with either Payne or Henshaw moving to 15.

Podge_irl

.ak wrote: »

That's exactly the games I was referring too.

The limited exposure is a much better approach and its stood to henshaw IMO

Those games were complete nonsense and frankly of lower standard than a European cup game. It was a completely thrown together squad and I don't think anyone was taking the tour altogether seriously and he was extremely inexperienced at the time. They're completely irrelevant to the discussion on how to introduce players to international rugby as far as I'm concerned. His first "real' cap was against SA and the "experience" of playing US and Canada affected diddly squat.

Zzippy

molloyjh wrote: »

Well except that it is. Reddan was quite good in the first half of that game. He's getting on a bit and tired visibly in the second half. His form was also fairly bad immediately after returning from the RWC in fairness. But Marmion hasn't stood out at all for me this season. In fact he hasn't really kicked on from his form of 18 months ago. I'd hoped he would and we could put Reddan out to pasture by the RWC but it just didn't happen. It's starting to look like Luke McGrath might be the guy to take Redsers place at this stage.

If Reddan's legs are gone that bad that he's tiring against Wasps, do we really want to rely on him to play 60/70 at test level if Murray has to go off early?

molloyjh wrote: »

I don't subscribe to the idea of giving someone game time because they are young. Either they are the best option or they are not. Maybe if there's little between them the age and potential future should count. But that's not the case with Marmion at the moment.

As for White I do like him as a player and was disappointed to see him leave Leinster, but I think Furlong is almost as good in most ways and has that added ability around the park over White. With Maccer behind him I wouldn't be worried about him at the scrum at all. If White was selected over him though I wouldn't be surprised or that bothered at all.

I agree on White, I'm not particularly exercised who starts. I don't agree that Marmion is that far behind Reddan, I think he doesn't get seen by people outside of Connacht that often, so one bad game on tv gets magnified in their opinions of him. Connacht are joint top of the league, which is unprecedented for us, especially so deep into the season, and it's not because Marmion is playing poorly.

Larbre34

Horses for courses.

Wales are likely to dominate Ireland physically, I'd rather Madigan in that scenario than Jackson any day.

Yes, Jackson is looking very good this season in space and with a barbarian running game, but he does not cope with the world falling in on him.

CMOTDibbler

Zzippy wrote: »

If Reddan's legs are gone that bad that he's tiring against Wasps, do we really want to rely on him to play 60/70 at test level if Murray has to go off early?

I'm not sure why molloy said that about Reddan because lately this season he's shown unbelievable fitness compared to how he's been in previous seasons; even going back to when Joe was in charge at Leinster.

There isn't a scrum half in the country (I'd hopes for Marmion and Cooney) that can do the tempo Reddan can for the duration he can.

ClanofLams

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

I watch a lot of Connacht games. Probably as many Connacht as Leinster or Munster. Ulster don't really get a look in

Marmion had a good game aginst Ulster even though it was a loss, but the Leinster game was poor as I said above. The away Scarlets game was also quite poor imo.

My abiding view of him is that he seldom can walk and chew gum. He can play a high tempo game, but only in fits and bursts and he becomes blinkered when he does and tends to just keep going in the same direction regardless of where the open spaces are. Then when he slows down, he can become ponderous and indecisive.

The frustrating thing about him is that at times he shows glimpses of what he could be. In the first half against Ulster he was looking up and dinking little kicks over the defense and exploiting gaps and then he just went into his shell in the second half.

Marmion was very good during the World Cup and maintained that right up until he got injured to Cardiff away. His first game back was Ulster where he played reasonable. Then he had his two worst games of the season against Leinster and Scarlets when he obviously wasn't fully fit after returning from injury.

He got a week off against Brive (needed it even though Connacht could have done with a result over there) and looked much the better for it against Enisei where he was man of the match.

So he's been playing well all season bar a couple of games when he was returning from injury.

molloyjh

Bazzo wrote: »

Henshaw was Connacht's first choice full back in the Heineken cup in 2012/13. He played at both 13 and 15 in the Heineken cup the following year if memory serves.

Well feck ya anyway. And here was me thinking I had a wonderful point....

Yeah_Right

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

Earls' defence is actually very strong anyway.

You're joking right? Please tell me you don't actually believe this.

wittycynic

bilston wrote: »

Ahhh just when I had decided to leave it alone I read this post.

I'm only to ask this, have you seen Paddy Jackson play this season?

Yes, and he's gone well enough. But that doesn't make him a top class operator of comparable quality to some of the best in Europe, and he isn't pushing Johnny for a spot on the team.

When we, as a national side, get players of genuine top quality, like Henderson and Henshaw, they are fast tracked into the team (they are 23 and 22 respectively, and both nailed on starters when fit). By contrast, Paddy is usually omitted in favour of Ian Madigan, who most consider to be only a reasonably talented out half. Paddy is now 24, and if he is going to become something other than a stop gap solution until we find the next ROG or Sexton, he would want to start showing that quality pretty soon.

CMOTDibbler

ClanofLams wrote: »

Marmion was very good during the World Cup and maintained that right up until he got injured to Cardiff away. His first game back was Ulster where he played reasonable. Then he had his two worst games of the season against Leinster and Scarlets when he obviously wasn't fully fit after returning from injury.

He got a week off against Brive (needed it even though Connacht could have done with a result over there) and looked much the better for it against Enisei where he was man of the match.

So he's been playing well all season bar a couple of games when he was returning from injury.

Look, I'm not trying to pick holes here but he had a reasonable game against Ulster when he was just back from injury and the following two games played badly because he was unfit due to the injury return?

Enisei really shouldn't count as any sort of yardstick. They would have been hockeyed by the Galwegians under 20s.

It might be unpalatable to accept, but is it not as likely that against tougher opposition he doesn't go as well?

molloyjh

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

I'm not sure why molloy said that about Reddan because lately this season he's shown unbelievable fitness compared to how he's been in previous seasons; even going back to when Joe was in charge at Leinster.

There isn't a scrum half in the country (I'd hopes for Marmion and Cooney) that can do the tempo Reddan can for the duration he can.

He still gets around the park but his decision making and execution notiveably dip over time. That, in my relatively uneducated opinion, is a clear sign of tiredness kicking in. The body is still going but the mind isn't as sharp. He was poor enough on that second half against Wasps after a pretty decent first half and I felt he should have been replaced earlier than he was.

aimee1

its_phil wrote: »

Also, Madigan over Jackson is just bizarre.

On form yes it is

But. Earls [11] and Zebo [15] starting is the rumour. Fitz is out. Thats the main utility cover for the bench either in the XV or out injured. It makes logical sense that way. [I dont agree with it to a degree, I think PJ deserves to be in the 23]

Yeah_Right

Yeah_Right wrote: »

You're joking right? Please tell me you don't actually believe this.

Earls' defence on the wing is very strong.

His instincts are spot on there. He struggles imo in the centre defensively because he's less certain and there's more space that he needs to mind.

When he burst onto the scene he wasn't a top notch defender (in an Ireland shirt) but gradually learned to use the touchline to great effect.

I don't think there's many issues with Earls' game at all once he's playing on the wing!

ClanofLams

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Look, I'm not trying to pick holes here but he had a reasonable game against Ulster when he was just back from injury and the following two games played badly because he was unfit due to the injury return?

Enisei really shouldn't count as any sort of yardstick. They would have been hockeyed by the Galwegians under 20s.

It might be unpalatable to accept, but is it not as likely that against tougher opposition he doesn't go as well?

Not really no given his performances against the likes of Toulouse and Leinster in the past.

He played against Ulster like he did against Scarlets with the exception of a big hit on Diack which was memorable, alright without being up to his usual standard, especially in attack. He was poor against Leinster in between when he was probably on fumes, given it was six days after Leinster.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

wittycynic wrote: »

Yes, and he's gone well enough. But that doesn't make him a top class operator of comparable quality to some of the best in Europe, and he isn't pushing Johnny for a spot on the team.

When we, as a national side, get players of genuine top quality, like Henderson and Henshaw, they are fast tracked into the team (they are 23 and 22 respectively, and both nailed on starters when fit). By contrast, Paddy is usually omitted in favour of Ian Madigan, who most consider to be only a reasonably talented out half. Paddy is now 24, and if he is going to become something other than a stop gap solution until we find the next ROG or Sexton, he would want to start showing that quality pretty soon.

Jackson was in the team over Madigan when he was 21/22. He had a few injuries at bad times and Madigan got in ahead of him for the Argentina tour and again last 6 Nations. Comparing either of them to Sexton is irrelevant really as we're not genuinely talking about either of them usurping him.
In terms of ability/form/quality at 10 Jackson has been showing it, whenever he gets a good run of games injury free, more than Madigan ever has.

There probably are a lot of valid arguments for Madigan over Jackson on the bench but the one you're putting out there isn't one of them, in my opinion. Madigan was behind Sexton for years, fair enough, it's Sexton, but he was also behind Gopperth for the 2 years Sexton was in France. If he was ever going to step up to the quality needed to be an international standard 10 those 2 years were his opportunity and he didn't.

whatawaster

Marmion has looked very solid every time I've watched him for Connacht this season. He is quick to the ball and his passing is solid. Doing all the basics really well imo. Obviously he is also a threat on the break, which Reddan isn't really.

wp_rathead

molloyjh wrote: »

Well feck ya anyway. And here was me thinking I had a wonderful point....

yup, afraid Henshaw has 12 Caps in the Henieken Cup mollyjh

Mahatma Geansai

Yeah_Right wrote: »

You're joking right? Please tell me you don't actually believe this.

As a winger, his defense is excellent. As a centre, his defense is good, but his size limits him.

His defense is certainly leagues ahead of that of Dave "Contribute-to-three-Argentinian-tries" Kearney.

sydthebeat

Larbre34 wrote: »

Horses for courses.

Wales are likely to dominate Ireland physically, I'd rather Madigan in that scenario than Jackson any day.

Yes, Jackson is looking very good this season in space and with a barbarian running game, but he does not cope with the world falling in on him.

surely you mean the opposite??

if our pack is getting beaten up the last 10 i want out there is madigan.. he has shown time and again to be rash and uncontrolled when faced with a retreating pack. Perhaps its becuase he doesnt stand off enough as he fancies his own running game, or he doesnt trust his kicking game, or its just the player he is.

paddy however has less issues lying deeper and controlling a game with his boot... which is what you want if your pack are getting bettered.

i do accept the fact that he probably hasnt had that experience lately... but his last start for ireland wasnt too bad at all

wittycynic

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Jackson was in the team over Madigan when he was 21/22. He had a few injuries at bad times and Madigan got in ahead of him for the Argentina tour and again last 6 Nations. Comparing either of them to Sexton is irrelevant really as we're not genuinely talking about either of them usurping him.
In terms of ability/form/quality at 10 Jackson has been showing it, whenever he gets a good run of games injury free, more than Madigan ever has.

There probably are a lot of valid arguments for Madigan over Jackson on the bench but the one you're putting out there isn't one of them, in my opinion. Madigan was behind Sexton for years, fair enough, it's Sexton, but he was also behind Gopperth for the 2 years Sexton was in France. If he was ever going to step up to the quality needed to be an international standard 10 those 2 years were his opportunity and he didn't.

I'm afraid I haven't put forward any argument for Madigan over Jackson, nor do I have any intention of doing so. I was merely pointing out that posters getting excited over Paddy Jackson isn't logical as he has done very little to show he is going to be a top class out half that is capable of mixing it with the best of them. The very same can be said about Madigan. Neither would cause their opposite numbers in decent international sides sleepless nights. I'm sure Biggar would be popping the champers if he though he was going to start against either of them on Sunday.

shootermacg

I'd guess Payne is the guy who marshals the defence from 13, as a 13 should. He's been doing a great job in that regard and should stay at 13 IMO.

sydthebeat

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

As a winger, his defense is excellent. As a centre, his defense is good, but his size limits him.

His defense is certainly leagues ahead of that of Dave "Contribute-to-three-Argentinian-tries" Kearney.

seeing as earls played inside him, should we start calling him Keith "Contributed-to-three-Argentinian-tries-as-well" Earls ???

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

wittycynic wrote: »

I'm afraid I haven't put forward any argument for Madigan over Jackson, nor do I have any intention of doing so. I was merely pointing out that posters getting excited over Paddy Jackson isn't logical as he has done very little to show he is going to be a top class out half that is capable of mixing it with the best of them. The very same can be said about Madigan. Neither would cause their opposite numbers in decent international sides sleepless nights. I'm sure Biggar would be popping the champers if he though he was going to start against either of them on Sunday.

Fair enough, although I still disagree with your point about the age at which top class players are introduced. As I said Jackson was introduced to the Ireland squad from a young age, it was injuries that have kept him out of it and now Madigan, for whatever reason. The coaching staff obviously saw something in him at that age to call him up and anytime he's played he's done a good job. Injuries have stopped him cementing his place in the Ireland squad but now he's injury free how can we know how good he can be at international level if he's not given the opportunity?

Even if we are only talking stopgap between Sexton and the next world class Irish 10, who, looking around the provinces, isn't on the scene yet, Jackson still seems the more likely option, if given the opportunity.

wittycynic

sydthebeat wrote: »

seeing as earls played inside him, should we start calling him Keith "Contributed-to-three-Argentinian-tries-as-well" Earls ???

I don't think anyone could or should really defend Dave Kearney's performance in that game.

leakyboots

wittycynic wrote: »

I don't think anyone could or should really defend Dave Kearney's performance in that game.

I think some of it stems from BOD's hatchet job on Earls in the media, similar to this 'Earls can't pass myth' that stemmed from Earls passing into touch when BOD couldn't keep up with him and BOD bawling him out of it publicly on the pitch. Great and all as he was as a player, there's something a bit bitter about him as a man or at least he comes across that way sometimes.

Mahatma Geansai

sydthebeat wrote: »

seeing as earls played inside him, should we start calling him Keith "Contributed-to-three-Argentinian-tries-as-well" Earls ???

You can do whatever you want, if it allows you to turn a blind-eye to Dave's fúck-ups for the three tries.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

leakyboots wrote: »

I think some of it stems from BOD's hatchet job on Earls in the media, similar to this 'Earls can't pass myth' that stemmed from Earls passing into touch when BOD couldn't keep up with him and BOD bawling him out of it publicly on the pitch. Great and all as he was as a player, there's something a bit bitter about him as a man or at least he comes across that way sometimes.

Not sure I'd call him bitter but I have definitely reassessed my opinion of him in the last year or so. I suppose when he's playing, especially as captain, he's towing the company line, how much of a player's personality do you really get to know during their playing career?

Mahatma Geansai

wittycynic wrote: »

I don't think anyone could or should really defend Dave Kearney's performance in that game.

Its what happens when a player is out of their depth. Kearney is a fine provincial player, but he's bang-average. Ian Dowling with an international career.

sydthebeat

wittycynic wrote: »

I don't think anyone could or should really defend Dave Kearney's performance in that game.

im not at all defending it....

im just drawing attention to all the culpable parties....

defenses are systems, systems need all players in tune... if a player bites in it could be because of a call from inside... or lack of a call from inside.

Every player that day is to blame

budhabob

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

Its what happens when a player is out of their depth. Kearney is a fine provincial player, but he's bang-average. Ian Dowling with an international career.

Ian Dowling was an excellent defender in all fairness. Lacked pace for sure though, certainly not international class though.

Mahatma Geansai

budhabob wrote: »

Ian Dowling was an excellent defender in all fairness. Lacked pace for sure though.

True. I was more comparing their quality as players rather than their individual talent.

leakyboots

budhabob wrote: »

Ian Dowling was an excellent defender in all fairness. Lacked pace for sure though, certainly not international class though.

I think the comparisons are fair, both are strong in contact, rarely get bundled into touch. I don't think either would be classed as a finisher like Earls or Hickie. Dowling had better defense but Dave probably has that bit more in attack, probably in the air too but I don't remember Dowling being particularly good or bad at that. Good squad players at Pro12 level but neither are going to tear up trees at international.

Buer

I don't think there's any doubt that there's a clear difference between the likes of Dave Kearney and Keith Earls/Ian Dowling.


One of them has won the Six Nations.

leakyboots

Buer wrote: »

I don't think there's any doubt that there's a clear difference between the likes of Djimi Traore and Nigel Winterburn.


One of them has won the Champions Leage.

:pac:

Podge_irl

Dave Kearney had a terrible game against Argentina but a huge amount of the fault also lies with players in midfield. The whole defensive line was set up not expecting them to get the ball out to wings so quickly in such space. He was always going to struggle. The game plan just completely fell apart.

And no, I don't particularly want him starting in the 6N. But the narrative around that game is ridiculous.

LostArt

Podge_irl

Podge_irl wrote: »

Dave Kearney had a terrible game against Argentina but a huge amount of the fault also lies with players in midfield. The whole defensive line was set up not expecting them to get the ball out to wings so quickly in such space. He was always going to struggle. The game plan just completely fell apart.

And no, I don't particularly want him starting in the 6N. But the narrative around that game is ridiculous.

I thought we lost because Madigan was selected over Jackson?

leakyboots

Podge_irl wrote: »

Dave Kearney had a terrible game against Argentina but a huge amount of the fault also lies with players in midfield. The whole defensive line was set up not expecting them to get the ball out to wings so quickly in such space. He was always going to struggle. The game plan just completely fell apart.

And no, I don't particularly want him starting in the 6N. But the narrative around that game is ridiculous.

If so, and it was obvious to me in the stadium at the time in the early stages of the game when they seemed to have overlaps the whole time, is the management not culpable for sending the team out set up that way defensively? It's not like Argentina vastly overhauled their game for that match.

wittycynic

Podge_irl wrote: »

Dave Kearney had a terrible game against Argentina but a huge amount of the fault also lies with players in midfield. The whole defensive line was set up not expecting them to get the ball out to wings so quickly in such space. He was always going to struggle. The game plan just completely fell apart.

I think the Irish management do have something to answer for regarding the gameplan for that day.

I don't want to go over old ground unnecessarily, but in terms of individual culpability, a more competent defender in Dave Kearney's shoes that day would not have been beaten like he was. He just looked out of his depth in that match. I've watched it back countless times and all I keep thinking is that if we had had somebody else on that wing that day, it might have been much closer.

He of course wasn't the only one who looked out of his depth, but when you're the last man on the line, your lack of ability can hurt your team much harder than in other positions.

molloyjh

wittycynic wrote: »

I don't think anyone could or should really defend Dave Kearney's performance in that game.

He didn't play as badly as people are making out here. For the first try he got stood up badly, but only after we gave them handy ball at the previous ruck and after our midfield defence was all at sea and after the fact that we had Best and Ross as the shooters to prevent the ball getting wide. All of that led to a situation where the Argies wide men had an advantage over the Irish wide men because they were getting the ball completely on their own terms. Dave should have done better, true, but there is no shortage of blame to go around for that try alone. Daves mistake happened to be the most visible one so he has been shipping the blame from certain quarters.

People will then talk about the tackle stats, which again are misleading. He was our leading kick chaser and a few of our kicks went too far giving him no chance of reclaiming and giving the Argie receiver time to take and deal with the chase. A few of his missed tackles are made up of ones where he was the chaser, which isn't the same as missing a "defensive" tackle.

None of that is to say Dave played well, but some of the criticisms of him from that day are nothing short of lazy misrepresentations of what happened.