Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread V

Crimsonforce

well this is a bit of a shock. buried in the Irish times article put up 10 mins ago.. didnt hear anything of this, anyone else?

"Iain Henderson came in for O’Connell while Cian Healy was another world class forward just back from injury. Henderson and Healy are injured again with the latter poised to take up a £450,000 a year contract from Worcester next season"

Scythica

awec wrote: »

The rumour is that McCloskey has been released and will be benching for Ulster tonight.

Thats a bit strange, unless:

a) He actually was v close to being in the 23
b) Someone else was suspect fitness wise and pulled through last minute?

Podge_irl

Crimsonforce wrote: »

well this is a bit of a shock. buried in the Irish times article put up 10 mins ago.. didnt hear anything of this, anyone else?

"Iain Henderson came in for O’Connell while Cian Healy was another world class forward just back from injury. Henderson and Healy are injured again with the latter poised to take up a £450,000 a year contract from Worcester next season"

Yeah was mentioned.

He has barely played for Leinster the last two years. I wouldn't be inconsolable if he left.

Mahatma Geansai

Teferi wrote: »

I asked him this yesterday and he didn't reply so don't expect him to tell you.

I generally try to avoid responding to the group posters who actively pick on and bully me.

However, I would have liked to see the following:

McGrath, Best, White;
Toner, Ryan;
Stander, TOD, Heaslip.

Murray, Sexton;
McCloskey, Henshaw;
Earls, Payne, Trimble.

Replacements:
Cronin, Cronin, Furlong, Dillane, Ruddock, Marmionn, Jackson, Zebo.

Mr Tickle

Scythica wrote: »

Thats a bit strange, unless:

a) He actually was v close to being in the 23
b) Someone else was suspect fitness wise and pulled through last minute?

He could be kept around as the 24th man.

I'm stuck in the car with bloody Justin Timberlake "cry me a river" playing on the radio!

Did anyone hear the press release at all?

Riskymove

Mr Tickle wrote: »

He could be kept around as the 24th man.

I think Jackson might take that role

usually need a backup replacement 10

molloyjh

I'm not overly optimistic about Sunday at this stage. We're just back in a position where we have a boat load of injuries and will suffer as a result. TOD will need a huge game against that Welsh back row. Zebo at FB makes sense if Rob was expected to be fit and Payne was training in the centre all week but he's hardly been lighting it up lately and has very limited experience at FB.

When you think about it they can now target us in the tight 5, the back row, our 10 and our FB. We might have an edge on them at scrum time and we can target their back 3 with a good kicking game. But suffer another injury or two and we're royally goosed.

At least people can't say Joe was conservative or biased I suppose. Hopefully we'll see a decent performance. Wales do tend to start slow as well so fingers crossed we have enough in that squad to do the job and we get a few guys back next week.

Riskymove

molloyjh wrote: »

At least people can't say Joe was conservative or biased I suppose.

half the likely XV are injured

Mr Tickle

Riskymove wrote: »

I think Jackson might take that role

usually need a backup replacement 10

True enough. I was just considering since both henshaw and payne are coming back from injury (i'm sure they're grand by now though) maybe another centre was worth having around.
Weird that ye didn't get one of him/marshal back.

Neil3030

Who is actually injured?

O'Mahony, O'Brien, Kearney (we think?), Henderson, Moore, Healy, Luke.... ?

Mr Tickle

Bowe too.

CMOTDibbler

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

I generally try to avoid responding to the group posters who actively pick on and bully me.

However, I would have liked to see the following:

McGrath, Best, White;
Toner, Ryan;
Stander, TOD, Heaslip.

Murray, Sexton;
McCloskey, Henshaw;
Earls, Payne, Trimble.

Replacements:
Cronin, Cronin, Furlong, Dillane, Ruddock, Marmionn, Jackson, Zebo.

There's nothing particularly controversial about that selection. I'd say many on this forum would agree with it.

Not me mind

gamma001

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

I generally try to avoid responding to the group posters who actively pick on and bully me.

However, I would have liked to see the following:

McGrath, Best, White;
Toner, Ryan;
Stander, TOD, Heaslip.

Murray, Sexton;
McCloskey, Henshaw;
Earls, Payne, Trimble.

Replacements:
Cronin, Cronin, Furlong, Dillane, Ruddock, Marmionn, Jackson, Zebo.

That's a perfectly reasonable team and one a lot of people would have liked to see besides Ryan who has been in terrible form when compared to Mike Mc.

Maybe its your attitude and bias towards some players which is causing other posters to respond to you in the way they have - not your selections.

And no its not bullying, its calling an internet poster out on BS. Big difference.

MJohnston

molloyjh wrote: »

At least people can't say Joe was conservative or biased I suppose.

Players that might have featured if not for injury
1. Healy
2.
3. Ross, Moore
4.
5. Henderson
6. POM
7. SOB
8.
9.
10.
11. Fitzgerald
12.
13.
14. Bowe
15. Kearney

Players only just returning from injury recently.
7. TOD
10. Sexton
12. Henshaw
13. Payne

Neil3030

Ralph the cat is not making any public comments on his omission by the way. Maybe when he frees himself from being trapped behind the tumble dryer (self-imposed) he'll say a few words.

molloyjh

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

There's nothing particularly controversial about that selection. I'd say many on this forum would agree with it.

Not me mind

Ryans form this season has been poor and McCarthys really good. Yet McCarthy doesn't even make his 23. Zebos form this season has been well behond Dave Kearneys and yet he makes the squad ahead of him. Other than that I wouldn't argue with his selection, but then it's all made a lot easier by injuries in fairness.

kuang1

captbarnacles wrote: »

Wales have come in by .06 on betfair since the squad announcement. The market has spoken.

Have gone from 11/4 to 12/5 to win it outright too...was gonna take 11/4 but was about a minute too late.

bilston

Disapointed by one or two calls in the backs but Joe basically had his hands tied, especially in the forwards. I'd probably have started Furlong as internationally White is no more experienced but in saying that congrats to Nathan White on getting the cap. The restnof the pack was forced on Joe although Ruddock could have started over CJ I suppose.

I have nore an issue behind the scrum. Half backs are fine and wings are fine but I'd have gone with McCloskey and Henshaw with Payne at FB, in fact I'd have gone with Henshaw and Marshall with Payne at FB over this selection. Nevertheless without having read or heard Joe's reasons I'm assuming the defensive solidity of Henshaw and Payne at centre was the key factor here. Although without SOB's gut busting runs McCloskey may have given us an extra ball carrier to get us over that gain line.

Anyway it's done now, I'm not massively optimistic for Sunday, but with rubbish conditons forecast the aerial battle will be key and we certainly have the half backs for the job.

Riskymove

molloyjh wrote: »

Ryans form this season has been poor and McCarthys really good. Yet McCarthy doesn't even make his 23. Zebos form this season has been well behond Dave Kearneys and yet he makes the squad ahead of him. Other than that I wouldn't argue with his selection, but then it's all made a lot easier by injuries in fairness.

I'm not sure why we are commenting on a theoretical team but....

Zebo would provide better cover off the bench in my opinion

Ryan vs McCarthy is largely about the team rather than individual for me. You could argue that Ryan provides a bit more aggression and this is particularly lacking with POC and Hendo not around

Neil3030

Neil3030 wrote: »

Ralph the cat is not making any public comments on his omission by the way. Maybe when he frees himself from being trapped behind the tumble dryer (self-imposed) he'll say a few words.

Maybe his face doesn't fit?

Here is Ralph the cat by the way folks:

Neil3030

My main concern is at 10. Joe sees Madigan as a superior 10 to Jackson; well, I don't. I have seen too many games (Ireland and Leinster) where Madigan does his best impression of an out-of-control garden hose when he takes the ball to the line. He thinks sequentially and in single channels, he sprays passes senselessly, he delivers hospital, nay, morgue passes to players, he gallops away unsupported. I just don't get what Joe sees in him over Jackson. No control, no phase continuity, oh and very suspect territorial kicking. Good things just don't happen when he is on a rugby field, except for the France game in the World Cup, which even moved Madigan to an emotional breakdown by its irregularity.

Further, the single most likely injury we will face on Sunday is at 10. So for all that Madigan brings in terms of not needing to shuffle things around if there is an injury to a centre or full-back, the most likely place he will be coming on is at 10. And again, if Sexton goes down in the first 15 minutes, I would much rather see Jackson come on.

My two cents on really the only contentious call in the team. Excited to see what Stander can bring. Delighted for Marmion. Hopefully TOD has a big game, his speed could really be important playing against two 7s.

Larbre34

If Zebo gets exposed he could feel the heat fairly quickly. Hope he goes well.

Happy for Marmion too, he deserves decent gametime this Championship. We can assume Reddan has dropped to Isaac Boss status and Boss is done.

Mahatma Geansai

gamma001 wrote: »

That's a perfectly reasonable team and one a lot of people would have liked to see besides Ryan who has been in terrible form when compared to Mike Mc.

Maybe its your attitude and bias towards some players which is causing other posters to respond to you in the way they have - not your selections.

And no its not bullying, its calling an internet poster out on BS. Big difference.

The terrible form think is a myth which has been perpetuated on here until it has become fact. He hasn't been at the top of his game in a poorly-performing Munster side. Ryan would add some pace/mobility and lineout ability that our pack/second-row badly needs.

I would certainly consider the following posts, all from today, bullying. Unfortunately, the moderators have no issues with groups of posters systematically picking on others.

molloyjh wrote: »

sydthebeat wrote: »

Mahatma Geansai wrote:

If the leaked/rumoured team is correct, McCarthy and Toner must be one of the weakest lock pairings we've played at this level. The lineout has to be a worry too as Toner is the only accomplished lineout forward in the pack, and he is only good because of his height; its a long-way from having the legendary POC and world-class POM to call upon

:rolleyes:
Two Leinster players: BOOOOOO

Two Munster players: YAAAAYYYYY

It's comic book stuff at this stage.

your bias knows no end does it.

Deleted User wrote: »

Mahatma Geansai wrote:

If the leaked/rumoured team is correct, McCarthy and Toner must be one of the weakest lock pairings we've played at this level. The lineout has to be a worry too as Toner is the only accomplished lineout forward in the pack, and he is only good because of his height; its a long-way from having the legendary POC and world-class POM to call upon.

You would have to be disappointed with the conservatism and disregard for form shown with the backline too. How McCloskey and Jackson have been ignore, I will never know.

You're really becoming a parody of yourself at this stage

Quint2010 wrote: »

aimee1 wrote:

so who would you have picked? We have 10 guys injured, POC retired so its not like we are picking this team from a full deck.

Peter Clohessy at loose head for a start...

Riskymove

Neil3030 wrote: »

My main concern is at 10. Joe sees Madigan as a superior 10 to Jackson; well, I don't.

I don't think Joe does either it is about cover I believe

If Sexton was out I think Joe would play Jackson

CatFromHue

Riskymove wrote: »

I don't think Joe does either it is about cover I believe

If Sexton was out I think Joe would play Jackson

Yeah we saw last year when Keatley started ahead of Madigan in the Italy game what exactly he thinks about Madigan.

Madigan can cover 10 and 12 which is important as no one else in the 23 can cover 12 if Henshaw gets injured.

Neil3030

Riskymove wrote: »

I don't think Joe does either it is about cover I believe

If Sexton was out I think Joe would play Jackson

Well if he doesn't, it boils down to:

- Having better cover for the most likely player to get injured (Sexton)

- Having a player who can slot in to midfield or full-back without shuffling the backline, while also providing inferior cover at 10.

I'd strongly lean towards option (a) myself. Though I'm not given money in exchange for picking rugby teams.

Mr Tickle

Riskymove wrote: »

I don't think Joe does either it is about cover I believe

If Sexton was out I think Joe would play Jackson

Is there anyone else who shares this kind of view of marmion/reddan.
ie if murray was out then start reddan but have marmion bench in any case?

case885

molloyjh wrote:

Ryans form this season has been poor and McCarthys really good. Yet McCarthy doesn't even make his 23. Zebos form this season has been well behond Dave Kearneys and yet he makes the squad ahead of him. Other than that I wouldn't argue with his selection, but then it's all made a lot easier by injuries in fairness.

That doesn't equate to much of a difference between the two, I'd hold Ryan's pedigree at international much higher than McCarthy's form for Leinster.
I think if dillane had that bit more experience we'd see him on the bench with Ryan starting.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

We knew it was coming and I do understand the logic behind it but it is very frustrating to look at a team sheet and see a winger at FB while there are two FBs in the centre and the best centre in the country, arguably in Europe, this season isn't even on the bench.

Oh well, let's see how we go.

Bazzo

Mr Tickle wrote: »

Is there anyone else who shares this kind of view of marmion/reddan.
ie if murray was out then start reddan but have marmion bench in any case?

Not really, completely different situation as they're all specialist scrum halves so there's no argument about who covers what position etc to be had. You start the best and bench the second best.

Riskymove

Neil3030 wrote: »

Though I'm not given money in exchange for picking rugby teams.

neither am I

however I recognize that only being able to have 8 subs in a game where there are a lot of specialist positions is challenging

having Jackson on the bench actually increases the likelihood of having to make multiple positional changes in the event of injury

e,g you could be forced to play Jackson in a position where he has no experience or be forced to move Sexton to centre or something like that

Rightwing

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

Delighted to see Marmionn finally given a shot. Reddan and Boss needed to be phased out. Great opportunity for him and against the country where he was raised too.

My opinions about the rest of the team are well stated over the last few days. Saying them again now will only result in another stream of personal abuse and bullying anyway, which I would rather avoid.

It'll be a huge task, but hopefully we put on a good performance and get the win.

I wouldn't get too bothered about any of that stuff. I don't have the time for posters that fall below my standards so I have them on Ignore.

It's an interesting situation for Schmidt. The provinces are playing poorly and his options are certainly limited, I've never really questionned his team selection, rather his tactics.

A loss is acceptable to a good Welsh team. Main problem is it will get the championship off to a poor start, and it is important to get confidence back quickly after a desperately disappointing WC.

Riskymove

Bazzo wrote: »

Not really, completely different situation as they're all specialist scrum halves so there's no argument about who covers what position etc to be had. You start the best and bench the second best.

I agree with that angle but doubt Marmion would have started if Murray out

a big game to be thrown into

CMOTDibbler

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

We knew it was coming and I do understand the logic behind it but it is very frustrating to look at a team sheet and see a winger at FB while there are two FBs in the centre and the best centre in the country, arguably in Europe, this season isn't even on the bench.

Oh well, let's see how we go.

If he was the best centre in Europe, don't you think that would show in training?

Also, why persist with this total blanking of Payne's substantial history of playing centre? AFAIK, he's played centre in every team he's ever played for. He was captain and centre for his provincial side; Northland for years.

Neil3030

Payne is absolutely vital (for Ireland) at 13 until someone else like Bundee or Ringrose comes through.

<giggles at the exciting prospect of Bundee, SOB, Stander and Henshaw sharing the carrying>

Neil3030

Payne is absolutely vital (for Ireland) at 13 until someone else like Bundee or Ringrose comes through.

<giggles at the exciting prospect of Bundee, SOB, Stander and Henshaw sharing the carrying>

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

If he was the best centre in Europe, don't you think that would show in training?

Also, why persist with this total blanking of Payne's substantial history of playing centre? AFAIK, he's played centre in every team he's ever played for. He was captain and centre for his provincial side; Northland for years.

I have no problem with Payne at 13 and I never have. I'm saying it's frustrating to look at the team sheet and see Zebo at 15 when there are two perfectly good FBs on the pitch AND the best performing Irish centre is in the extended squad so it would have been entirely possible to facilitate moving one of Henshaw or Payne to 15.

I've also stated, a few times now, that I understand and accept the logic for it but that doesn't change the fact that it's frustrating.

Mahatma Geansai

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

The terrible form think is a myth which has been perpetuated on here until it has become fact. He hasn't been at the top of his game in a poorly-performing Munster side. Ryan would add some pace/mobility and lineout ability that our pack/second-row badly needs.

I would certainly consider the following posts, all from today, bullying. Unfortunately, the moderators have no issues with groups of posters systematically picking on others.

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

If the leaked/rumoured team is correct, McCarthy and Toner must be one of the weakest lock pairings we've played at this level. The lineout has to be a worry too as Toner is the only accomplished lineout forward in the pack, and he is only good because of his height; its a long-way from having the legendary POC and world-class POM to call upon.

You would have to be disappointed with the conservatism and disregard for form shown with the backline too. How McCloskey and Jackson have been ignore, I will never know.

You are right. I have am heavily influenced by your posting history to the degree that I'm unconsciously looking for things to pounce on. The language of your post here is typical of the hyperbole that you usually use. You aren't entirely wrong in your assessment, Toner and McCarthy aren't a great pairing; its the manner in which you dismissed them and how you praised their incumbents. Toner's only quality being his height. POC and POM are gods amongst men. I sometimes think you are going out of your way to cause controversy. Do you ever stop to think; is this comment incendiary? Will it get a rise out of people?

I could probably write up a list of 100 times where you have done this. You have a reputation at this stage.

Although this forum definitely has a Leinster slant by default due to mass of numbers that I think a lot of posters are unaware of. I have a blatant Leinster bias myself which I try to step back from. I wish you would try and step back from your bias the odd time.

That said.... I actually enjoy your overly contrary posts :pac: Sure that's the fun of it all

Neil3030

Riskymove wrote: »

neither am I

however I recognize that only being able to have 8 subs in a game where there are a lot of specialist positions is challenging

having Jackson on the bench actually increases the likelihood of having to make multiple positional changes in the event of injury

e,g you could be forced to play Jackson in a position where he has no experience or be forced to move Sexton to centre or something like that

Yeah, I totally get the reshuffling argument for including a versatile 22, but for me, given the much stronger likelihood of Sexton leaving injured, I'd weight the 22 selection toward who best covers 10.

Neil3030

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNqVdqF5eKE

rsh118

I have to say, as a log time lurker, that I think we're all more pessimistic than we should be. Joe is surely looking to blood the youth steadily rather than in an all-at-once bonanza.

The only misstep I see is not including Jackson who has to be the future 10 for Ireland. I get that we need versatility in the bench backs, but Jackson should be there week in week out soaking it all up, gaining as many minutes as possible, and presenting a challenge to the opposition in the dying minutes of the game.

One difficulty I think Schmidt has is that at international level he has given Henshaw lots of experience at 12 which as D'Arcy has been writing is an enormously challenging prospect. Now he has McCloskey who is basically custom designed for 12 and Henshaw blooded at 12. It's a headache to have but certainly a good one.

The more I think of a Murray, Jackson, McCloskey, Henshaw back line, the more I start to drool...

[/ulsterfan]

CMOTDibbler

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

I have no problem with Payne at 13 and I never have. I'm saying it's frustrating to look at the team sheet and see Zebo at 15 when there are two perfectly good FBs on the pitch AND the best performing Irish centre is in the extended squad so it would have been entirely possible to facilitate moving one of Henshaw or Payne to 15.

I've also stated, a few times now, that I understand and accept the logic for it but that doesn't change the fact that it's frustrating.

I don't understand how it's frustrating and logical

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

I don't understand how it's frustrating and logical

It's logical because of the timing of Kearney's injury. It's frustrating because there were other options available.

kilns

The big big worry is Zebo at full back, he shows well against teams like Canada but Wales is a whole different ball game. But there is no other current option as Payne is a must for 13, with more time working with Henshaw, Joe will move him to 13 but not yet, so it was a straight pick between Henshaw and McCloskey.

O'Donnell is a weak link at 7 too, not up to the standard but he is 3rd/4th choice so that is expected. This is where the winning and losing of the game will be with Wales playing two 7s. Hopefully Stander can step up after all the hype. Heaslip will be so important, despite what some say here, he is still by far and away the best 8 in Ireland.

Mr Tickle

kilns wrote: »

The big big worry is Zebo at full back, he shows well against teams like Canada but Wales is a whole different ball game. But there is no other current option as Payne is a must for 13, with more time working with Henshaw, Joe will move him to 13 but not yet, so it was a straight pick between Henshaw and McCloskey.

O'Donnell is a weak link at 7 too, not up to the standard but he is 3rd/4th choice so that is expected. This is where the winning and losing of the game will be with Wales playing two 7s. Hopefully Stander can step up after all the hype. Heaslip will be so important, despite what some say here, he is still by far and away the best 8 in Ireland.

Well there was also the option to have mcCloskey/Payne in the centre and put Henshaw at full back. We saw the kind of damage he can do in the munster-connacht game.

I'm not too worried about Zebo tbh.

The oul siege gun left boot will be out a few times to knock Wales back into their own half I assume.

kilns

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm not too worried about Zebo tbh.

The oul siege gun left boot will be out a few times to knock Wales back into their own half I assume.

Its more his defending which should be a worry

kilns

kilns wrote: »

Its more his defending which should be a worry

Yeah I know, it's definitely 'the issue' but I just am not worried about it. He'll do enough.