Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread V

molloyjh

Murray Kinsella put up a tweet there yesterday about Best loving a good ruck. It's a great clip, but what also stands out is McGrath clearing out Jenkins (?) really well. Having watched Sunday's game back last night I was struck with just how much work Jack got through. He was very impressive.

https://twitter.com/murray_kinsella/status/696689758593032192

Once again jm08 has the facts just fundamentally wrong. Heaslip became first choice for Ireland in 2008, Wallace was obviously our openside and Easterby was our blind side. In 2009 Ferris obviously took over and was first choice blindside while fit. Leamy was finished as a first choice Irish player in 2008.

Heaslip was lucky, I don't accept anyone can actually believe that rubbish.

aimee1

Harley Uptight Light wrote: »

Once again jm08 has the facts just fundamentally wrong. Heaslip became first choice for Ireland in 2008, Wallace was obviously our openside and Easterby was our blind side. In 2009 Ferris obviously took over and was first choice blindside while fit. Leamy was finished as a first choice Irish player in 2008.

Heaslip was lucky, I don't accept anyone can actually believe that rubbish.

Lucky he was picked by EOS, Cheika, Gatland, McGeechan, Kidney, Schmidt, O'Connor and even luckier he managed to fluke 86 test caps [and counting] and win a stack of titles along the way. I wish I had that much luck when doing the Lotto.

Podge_irl

jm08 wrote: »

I would rate backrowers like SOB, David Wallace, Ferris, Denis Leamy as being better players because of their ability to play more than one position in the backrow.

They are all, without fail, worse number 8s however which is the very simple, fundamental point you seem to be missing.

It is, genuinely, the equivalent of wondering why Paul O'Connell never played in the backrow unlike Ryan or Henderson and coming to the conclusion that it's because he is a worse player.

Heaslip will pick up his 300th senior cap in the last game of the tournament if all goes to plan.

Leinster, Ireland & Lions.

Pity he's not versatile.

Buer

I'm going to take a bath in boiling water after this in an effort to get clean as I can't believe I'm quoting Tony Ward but I think his line sums things up quite succinctly from his article today:

Heaslip was simply Heaslip and someday when he is no longer available to Ireland his brainless critics will see just how big a loss he will be.

Buer

Buer wrote: »

I'm going to take a bath in boiling water after this in an effort to get clean as I can't believe I'm quoting Tony Ward but I think his line sums things up quite succinctly from his article today:

Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while

CMOTDibbler

Buer wrote: »

I'm going to take a bath in boiling water after this in an effort to get clean as I can't believe I'm quoting Tony Ward but I think his line sums things up quite succinctly from his article today:

I'm no great fan of Tony Ward, but every so often he says something that makes me change my mind. :cool:

Riskymove

jm08 wrote: »

I would rate backrowers like SOB, David Wallace, Ferris, Denis Leamy as being better players because of their ability to play more than one position in the backrow.

that makes little sense to me really

It is like saying Fergus McFadden is a better player than BOD because he could regularly play more positions

Heaslip was simply Heaslip and someday when he is no longer available to Ireland his brainless critics will see just how big a loss he will be.

I also agree with this. Heaslip does a huge amount of work at a high level. For me, it is because he isn't always making distances with the ball that leads to this skewed view of him

CMOTDibbler

Riskymove wrote: »

I also agree with this. Heaslip does a huge amount of work at a high level. For me, it is because he isn't always making distances with the ball that leads to this skewed view of him

It's also because he used to make the big carries early in his career but during Cheika's tenure at Leinster this changed due to the presence of SOB and Cian Healy (the same at Ireland level) who were better ball carriers.

People seem to attribute this to laziness on Heaslip's part :rolleyes:

vienne86

When I see the forwards (either Ireland or Leinster) getting a try, and I wait to see who comes up with the ball in their hands, I have often found myself hoping it would be Heaslip. He just works so hard and deserves the accolade. I just don't get the criticism he gets here, and just ignore those posts.

Scythica

He's no Nick Williams heyboy.

(Ok thats a lie Heaslip is probably my favourite player; epitimises the team effort and like that quote above it will be seriously telling when he isn't around no longer).

CMOTDibbler

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

It's also because he used to make the big carries early in his career but during Cheika's tenure at Leinster this changed due to the presence of SOB and Cian Healy (the same at Ireland level) who were better ball carriers.

People seem to attribute this to laziness on Heaslip's part :rolleyes:

I think it's a lot of axe grinding as well. Heaslip is a primary representative of Leinster's success over the last 6 - 7 seasons which a lot of people seem to resent to be honest. It spills out in these kinds of posts quite openly.

Either way, I'm just a little bit excited to see Stander, O'Brien, Heaslip. That's a championship winning backrow, and that's without giving due credit to Ruddock and TOD both of whom went well also.

I though Lenihan made a very good point on against the head last night. Joanne Cantwell was asking where the game against Wales ranks in Joe Schmidts tenure and he said he thinks its one of, if not the best performance.

He said that with the provinces struggling and the world cup hangover still looming, the fact that we were so strong out of the blocks and had such a positive performance was very heartening.

He said with so many front line injuries, and then more last minute injuries during the week, the fact that we had such an impressive performance says a lot about the coaching ticket.

Jackman said it proves just how good a coach Joe is, and that all our stats around tackle completion, rucks won etc etc showed that we were the best coached / drilled side in Europe.

Edit: Forgot to add in, Joanne Cantwell is a terrific host, RTE are far too conservative with their host selections and I'd like to see her get a run for the Scotland or Italy game.

WeleaseWoderick

Obviously a ridiculous argument but at least this Heaslip versatility discussion kept me entertained on the way to work!

Again, I wouldn't normally agree with a huge amount that Tony Ward says but he is bang on the money with his comments.

WeleaseWoderick

Obviously a ridiculous argument but at least this Heaslip versatility discussion kept me entertained on the way to work!

Again, I wouldn't normally agree with a huge amount that Tony Ward says but he is bang on the money with his comments.

jm08

jm08 wrote: »

My initial comment was this:



I would rate backrowers like SOB, David Wallace, Ferris, Denis Leamy as being better players because of their ability to play more than one position in the backrow.

Just saw this gem. Denis Leamy a better player than Heaslip. Properly embarrassing levels of posting.

CMOTDibbler

Deleted User wrote: »

Edit: Forgot to add in, Joanne Cantwell is a terrific host, RTE are far too conservative with their host selections and I'd like to see her get a run for the Scotland or Italy game.

I've snipped the stuff about Joe and the coaching ticket because at this stage it goes without saying. Except to say that the Welsh disappointment gives some indication of what they thought all the injuries would do to us.

Joanne Cantwell is by far the best rugby host on RTE. No ego on show and just gets the best out of her guests with intelligent questions and good follow ups. She really should be getting more.

Clegg

Glad I didn't catch the Heaslip argument last night.

However I'd still like to say that he is without a doubt one of the finest players ever to play for Leinster and Ireland. 5 starts in the Lions test side over two tours so he's obviously highly rated outside the country as well. It'll be a sad day when he retires.

Another interesting point is posters like jm08 like to use the "he was a Lion" argument to prove Zebo is better than {insert name of non Munster player here} yet can manage the necessary mental gymnastics to come up with the notion a 5 test cap over two tours Lion is worse than a guy who never even made a tour.

aimee1

Harley Uptight Light wrote: »

Another interesting point is posters like jm08 like to use the "he was a Lion" argument to prove Zebo is better than {insert name of non Munster player here} yet can manage the necessary mental gymnastics to come up with the notion a 5 test cap over two tours Lion is worse than a guy who never even made a tour.

yeah but he was dropped once, thats worse then never even getting called up ...

jm08

former total wrote: »

No. Leamy was lucky he could move over because otherwise his international career was over. And once Ferris emerged, Leamy was on the bench and never got back into the XV.

Heaslip got into the side at No. 8 in the 6Ns of 2008 firstly on the bench with Easterby 6 and Leamy 8. The following week, Easterby was dropped to the bench with Leamy moving to 6 to accommodate Heaslip at 8.

Leamy went onto win a Heineken Cup playing No 8 in the final v Toulouse. Ireland went on tour to SH where Leamy was selected to start at blindside.

After that tour he had major surgery on his shouler and basically his body started breaking down after that with several serious injuries including a knee injury v USAP in Dec 2009 and later a hip injury which saw him retire at 30.

Leamy was always a flanker coming through and only played eight because Ireland had Easterby and Wallace as immovable objects at 6 and 7 but a gap at 8. He was versatile because he had to be.

He made his breakthrough at Munster at 7 (when D Wallace was injured). He did play most of his rugby there at No8 (including the 08 Hcup Final)

That's not a dig at Leamy who was a fine player, but this debate could use some facts.

I'll take you at your word that the sentiment is not to have a dig at Leamy, but you could have included the fact that injury was the major reason why Leamy did not feature so much after the 2008 tour to the Southern Hemisphere and not because Heaslip was this world class player demanding selections. Heaslip has been very lucky with how versatile other players have been able to move around the backrower easily (such as Peter O'mahony playing all his underage rugby at No 8)

kilns

Lets call a spade a spade. If Heaslip was a Munster player, those who criticise him now, would be calling him one of the best Irish players of all time

leakyboots

molloyjh wrote: »

Murray Kinsella put up a tweet there yesterday about Best loving a good ruck. It's a great clip, but what also stands out is McGrath clearing out Jenkins (?) really well. Having watched Sunday's game back last night I was struck with just how much work Jack got through. He was very impressive.

https://twitter.com/murray_kinsella/status/696689758593032192

McGrath was sensational. I don't get the reports since the game that Healy will be called up for the France match. I'd have Healy well behind McGrath. Leave him duke it out with Cronin and Buckley for the bench spot (I'd have him behind Cronin as it stands), McGrath deservedly has the jersey now, cracking player.

Earls was another fella who was hitting multiple rucks, especially in the first half hour, would love to see his stats.

Leamy's profile including all of the minutes he played in 2009.

Fascinatingly, it contradicts what is above.

Here's a match report from the opening game of the 6Nations that season. Ireland scored a try after 36 minutes.

Citations are good for points, certainly more useful than just relying on one's own memory. I often wonder why they're not used sometimes by other posters.

Buer

Well, Healy didn't even participate fully for Leinster in training yesterday so his presence this weekend in Paris is out of the question, I would think. I reckon a bench appearance against Zebre is far more likely.

Mike Ross is another story. Trained fully yesterday with Leinster and could well be in Carton House today/tomorrow.

leakyboots

leakyboots wrote: »

McGrath was sensational. I don't get the reports since the game that Healy will be called up for the France match. I'd have Healy well behind McGrath. Leave him duke it out with Cronin and Buckley for the bench spot (I'd have him behind Cronin as it stands), McGrath deservedly has the jersey now, cracking player.

McGrath has been better than him for at least two full calendar years now. Healy's injuries haven't helped him at all, but McGrath is my #1 #1 at province and country.

Healy (in form) off the bench is a better weapon than McGrath too, so I'd be happy to see him bench definitely.

Bridge93

There are times to maybe admit that you have got it wrong or phrased your opinion wrong. This strikes me as one of those times when to a man every single person on the forum not only disagrees with you but is struggling to articulate how wrong it is.
I go on holidays to South Africa next week. Might bump into jm08 when he pops out of that hole he keeps digging.

The ability to just keep ignoring the facts and rationale put forward and keep shouting new totally incorrect and strawman arguments with each move of the goalposts is astounding. Sinn Fein and the likes would be proud

thomond2006

Rob Kearney is set to be fit right? Presumably Zebo gets moved to the wing then to replace Earls?

Bridge93

thomond2006 wrote: »

Rob Kearney is set to be fit right? Presumably Zebo gets moved to the wing then to replace Earls?

I'd expect and hope that to be the case

irishbucsfan

thomond2006 wrote: »

Rob Kearney is set to be fit right? Presumably Zebo gets moved to the wing then to replace Earls?

Sounds like Rob will be fit.

Could be both the brothers come into the side...

Anyway, back to Ireland team conversation, I think there will be some rotation for this weekend in France.

Jack McGrath (has played a lot of rugby last season and managed even with tight turnarounds, expect him to start)
Rory Best
Nathan White
Donnchadh Ryan (Mike Mc on the bench this week for rotations sake)
Devon Toner
CJ Stander
Sean O'Brien
Jamie Heaslip
Conor Murray
Jonathon Sexton
Dave Kearney
Robbie Henshaw
Jared Payne
Andrew Trimble
Rob Kearney

James Cronin
Sean Cronin
Tadgh Furlong (may start but doubt it against a powerful enough French front row)
Mike McCarthy
Rhys Ruddock
Kieran Marmion
Ian Madigan
Simon Zebo

leakyboots

Harley Uptight Light wrote: »

Just saw this gem. Denis Leamy a better player than Heaslip. Properly embarrassing levels of posting.

To be fair (I don't agree with jm's general point about Heaslip) but Leamy at his peak was ferocious. Guy could never catch a break injury-wise, for want of a better phrase so we didn't see the best of him for long. Makes Heaslip's achievements remarkable how he stayed so injury free in the position he plays.

Nothing tops Wallace though, the best forward Munster and Ireland have ever had, in my opinion.

thomond2006

thomond2006 wrote: »

Rob Kearney is set to be fit right? Presumably Zebo gets moved to the wing then to replace Earls?

My suspicion is that Zebo will get the 23 jersey and Dave Kearney will be a direct replacement for Earls.

That said, I am only basing that on the fact that Joe seems to like his continuity in place around positions. It wouldn't surprise me if Kearney was 23 and Zebo came in for Earls.

On the Jack McGrath discussion. If the Lions team was being picked right now I'd probably have him as a starter.

leakyboots

Deleted User wrote: »

Healy (in form) off the bench is a better weapon than McGrath too, so I'd be happy to see him bench definitely.

The in form thing though... when was the last time we saw Healy at the level we know he can achieve? I wouldn't have him near the squad yet, let him get a couple of weeks gametime with Leinster and see how he goes.

I'd say Denis Buckley is gutted he got injured when he did

jacothelad

Teferi wrote: »

I always said that Mike Ross should have doubled as a winger. You know, for the team and stuff.

And Archer at full back, Conor Murray at hooker. POC at outside centre. I have to say I've rarely read such insane sycophancy on any rugby board. TOD makes Heaslip look good...PMSL. Pity he doesn't do the same for his own No. 8. It does remind me though that I have to pick up a new bilge pump for my boat this week.

leakyboots

leakyboots wrote: »

The in form thing though... when was the last time we saw Healy at the level we know he can achieve? I wouldn't have him near the squad yet, let him get a couple of weeks gametime with Leinster and see how he goes.

I'd say Denis Buckley is gutted he got injured when he did

yup, all true. Healy has had a poor 2 years, no doubt.

Huge Buckley fan here, he plays like Best/Strauss at the breakdown and wins turnovers in every game, has great hands and has been scrummaging well.

Definitely going to earn himself some games in t'other Green.

jacothelad

stephen_n wrote: »

So in retrospect BOD was a **** out-half, scrumhalf and full back. He really wasn't a great player at all, no versatility that chap.

Well to be fair he did pull ROG out of a hole in the 2009 game against England by dropping a goal because ROG wasn't versatile enough that day...:D Was that the day ROG moved to tight head?...:D:D:D:D:D

thomond2006

John Hayes is the greatest player of all-time because he wasn't only a tighthead but also a spontaneous medic.

jacothelad

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Not sure which shocks me most, that you rank Heaslip in a bracket below ROG, or that you bracket ROG in the same brackets as BOD and POC.

While we're at it, BOD, was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be, bracketless. He is the alpha and the omega.

Now to be fair there is a special category sett aside for ROG...The Courageous Speed Bump is his alone.
Correct about BOD. Just one rung below Mike Gibson who played 10, 11, 12, 13, 14 and 15 for Ireland.

leakyboots

leakyboots wrote: »

To be fair (I don't agree with jm's general point about Heaslip) but Leamy at his peak was ferocious. Guy could never catch a break injury-wise, for want of a better phrase so we didn't see the best of him for long. Makes Heaslip's achievements remarkable how he stayed so injury free in the position he plays.

Nothing tops Wallace though, the best forward Munster and Ireland have ever had, in my opinion.

Wallace is a different class to Leamy and he's certainly in the discussion as the best forward we've had in the pro era. Personally I'd go for PO'C but hey.

leakyboots

jacothelad wrote: »

Now to be fair there is a special category sett aside for ROG...The Courageous Speed Bump is his alone.
Correct about BOD. Just one rung below Mike Gibson who played 10, 11, 12, 13, 14 and 15 for Ireland.

ROG never shirked a tackle though, he might have gotten run over by bigger men but usually it was while attempting.

I won't cause a meltdown here posting about a certain gawwwwwjus fullback's attempts over the years :P

Scythica

POM covers wing so he should be starting ahead of CJ when he's back

jacothelad

aimee1 wrote: »

Paddy Wallace could play 10 and 12. In 2009 he was doing it with one eye closed sureðŸ”

Often.

wp_rathead wrote: »

I don't wanna get dragged into this bizarre discussion but a big reason we have never seen Heaslip anywhere other than 8 is due to Leinster's ridiculous depth of flankers over the years meaning he never had too

Ah! Was it Cameron Jowett who made him look good?

Oh god... you are talking about Denis Buckley this whole time, not Tony Buckley. And I was thinking you had all gone mad.

Mahatma Geansai

Considering Heaslip's broad skillset, I would think it is surprising that he always plays at 8. He's not so much a specialist 8 as he is a complete backrower.

There would definitely be value in Leinster playing someone like Conan at 8 and shifting Heaslip to 6 in certain games, as it would help the younger player develop. Stander or SOB could also provide a much stronger carrying threat off the base for ireland on certain attacking scrums.

Mahatma Geansai

Harley Uptight Light wrote: »

Wallace is a different class to Leamy and he's certainly in the discussion as the best forward we've had in the pro era. Personally I'd go for PO'C but hey.

Wallace and POC have been Ireland's best forwards of the professional era imo. It's a pity that both players had to bow out of the game in a similar manor.

Bridge93

Am I remembering right that Wallace was a tiny bit older arriving at the top level? He was a beast. The thought of him SOB and Ferris competing at that WC was mouthwatering.
So disappointing how it ended. Built like a brick. Sad himself, POC and ferris seem to be following an increasing trend of how it ends for top players.

leakyboots

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

Wallace and POC have been Ireland's best forwards of the professional era imo. It's a pity that both players had to bow out of the game in a similar manor.

Wallace was a physical freak though, the complete player. Unbelievable power and leg drive, pretty much unstoppable for 5 yards out... quick enough to turn out in the centre and wing for Munster, lineout option, minded ROG for years with his tackling. Doubt we'll see someone of his ilk for a long time again, a special talent.

leakyboots

Bridge93 wrote: »

Am I remembering right that Wallace was a tiny bit older arriving at the top level? He was a beast. The thought of him SOB and Ferris competing at that WC was mouthwatering.
So disappointing how it ended. Built like a brick. Sad himself, POC and ferris seem to be following an increasing trend of how it ends for top players.

No, he just had injuries. Wallace scored in the final against Northampton in 2000. He made his Ireland debut a couple of weeks later. Lions tour in 2001 and 2009.

People sometimes forget his injury woes in the early part of his career.. makes what he went on to be all the more impressive.

LOTS of man love for Wallace

leakyboots

leakyboots wrote: »

LOTS of man love for Wallace

No shame there, he was a handsome divil of a man never mind his rugby abilities!