Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread V

Buer

Bridge93 wrote: »

Am I remembering right that Wallace was a tiny bit older arriving at the top level? He was a beast. .

He had a strange career. Started off like a train and was called into the 2001 Lions squad as a replacement.

But then he copped a couple of injuries and his form tailed off a bit. He was still a force but wasn't hitting the same heights.

He improved his breakdown work significantly and came back into the team for the 2004 Triple Crown game, I think. There was huge public clamour for him to return. He fought for a spot with the likes of Gleeson and Johnny O'Connor which he won out eventually and then stepped up to another level for the last 4-5 years of his career when he was peerless as a flanker in this country.

thomond2006

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

Wallace and POC have been Ireland's best forwards of the professional era imo. It's a pity that both players had to bow out of the game in a similar manor.

Without a shadow of a doubt Stephen Ferris would be in this category were it not for injury. Ireland's version of Rob Gronkowski, no way should a player Ferris' size be that quick!

former total

Buer wrote: »

He had a strange career. Started off like a train and was called into the 2001 Lions squad as a replacement.

But then he copped a couple of injuries and his form tailed off a bit. He was still a force but wasn't hitting the same heights.

He improved his breakdown work significantly and came back into the team for the 2004 Triple Crown game, I think. There was huge public clamour for him to return. He fought for a spot with the likes of Gleeson and Johnny O'Connor which he won out eventually and then stepped up to another level for the last 4-5 years of his career when he was peerless as a flanker in this country.

Yeah, definitely. His form dipped, there were injuries and the constant debate over where his best position was. Post 2005 he was absolutely immense though.

JPNelsforearm

Buer wrote: »

He had a strange career. Started off like a train and was called into the 2001 Lions squad as a replacement.

But then he copped a couple of injuries and his form tailed off a bit. He was still a force but wasn't hitting the same heights.

He improved his breakdown work significantly and came back into the team for the 2004 Triple Crown game, I think. There was huge public clamour for him to return. He fought for a spot with the likes of Gleeson and Johnny O'Connor which he won out eventually and then stepped up to another level for the last 4-5 years of his career when he was peerless as a flanker in this country.

Whilst I dont think he was a great openside, he was a class all round backrower, easily playing the best rugby of his career right up to his knee injury, at what, 35? In phenomenal shape, could have kept going for years if not for blowing out his knee.

sydthebeat

it really is so sad theres such a hatred out there towards an irish player from posters who use the most mindless junk to disparage him.

of the 6 no 8s on show last weekend id take heaslip each and every day. For all of parisse's open play action, and he's a tremendous player... he still does head less things. There were at least 3 incidents against france which cost his team. The first when he was adjudged to have deliberately knocked on and he chose to stop and argue rather than retreat and set the line quickly... result, french try. Second was where he was adjudged to have been held in the tackle. He was on the ground with a french player on him, he never should have attempted to get to his feet again. And the third was the drop goal attempt, which i would actually have sympathy for him in.

Billy V got motm, again for open play action... but jesus at the back of a scrum he has the control of an epileptic elephant.

Toby is the closest to heaslip and a work horse, but i think Jamie has a bigger physical presence.

wp_rathead

jacothelad wrote: »

Ah! Was it Cameron Jowett who made him look good?

Eh?

molloyjh

jacothelad wrote: »

Ah! Was it Cameron Jowett who made him look good?

Ah yes, Cameron Jowett. Freddie's Folly to Gleesons Freddie's Bane. Must have been.

former total

wp_rathead wrote: »

Eh?

It's a reference to an earlier claim that Heaslip played well on Sunday because Tommy O'Donnell made him look good.

leakyboots

sydthebeat wrote: »

Toby is the closest to heaslip and a work horse, but i think Jamie has a bigger physical presence.

I'd say the opposite to be honest. Jamie seems to be a little underpowered in contact in the most recent seasons. Heaslip's engine is phenomenal.

Faletau is only 25 still, frightening

former total

former total wrote: »

It's a reference to an earlier claim that Heaslip played well on Sunday because Tommy O'Donnell made him look good.

Jebus, who said that? Do I need to ask even?

wp_rathead

former total wrote: »

It's a reference to an earlier claim that Heaslip played well on Sunday because Tommy O'Donnell made him look good.

Ahhh okay I get it now
I thought Jaco believed that's what I meant by my comment so was bit confused how (s)he came to that conclusion ha

jm08

Deleted User wrote: »

Leamy's profile including all of the minutes he played in 2009.

Fascinatingly, it contradicts what is above.

Here's a match report from the opening game of the 6Nations that season. Ireland scored a try after 36 minutes.

Citations are good for points, certainly more useful than just relying on one's own memory. I often wonder why they're not used sometimes by other posters.

No, it doesn't.

jm08

former total wrote: »

It's a reference to an earlier claim that Heaslip played well on Sunday because Tommy O'Donnell made him look good.

Your interpretation of that comment says more about you than me. Why is everyone always looking for offence in any comment made? I'm not the first one to suggest that David Wallace / Tommy O'Donnell type player compliments him better. Another way of saying it is that there is a better balance in the backrow.

jm08

jm08 wrote: »

No, it doesn't.

Let's consider this

jm08 wrote: »

...
I'll take you at your word that the sentiment is not to have a dig at Leamy, but you could have included the fact that injury was the major reason why Leamy did not feature so much after the 2008 tour to the Southern Hemisphere and not because Heaslip was this world class player demanding selections. Heaslip has been very lucky with how versatile other players have been able to move around the backrower easily (such as Peter O'mahony playing all his underage rugby at No 8)

He was fit and playing during the 6Nations. Just not for Ireland. It wasn't injury that cost him his place (as you've suggested).

Deleted User wrote: »

Leamy's profile including all of the minutes he played in 2009.

Fascinatingly, it contradicts what is above.

Here's a match report from the opening game of the 6Nations that season. Ireland scored a try after 36 minutes.

Citations are good for points, certainly more useful than just relying on one's own memory. I often wonder why they're not used sometimes by other posters.

Worth remembering at the end of that season Heaslip went and played 240 minutes of Test Rugby for the Lions.

jm08

Deleted User wrote: »

Let's consider this


He was fit and playing during the 6Nations. Just not for Ireland. It wasn't injury that cost him his place (as you've suggested).


Worth remembering at the end of that season Heaslip went and played 240 minutes of Test Rugby for the Lions.

His first game back after shoulder reconstruction in summer of '08 was v. ABs in Thomond Park. (23 mins)

28/11 Scarlets 69 mins

He then didn't play again until 9 January 2009 (missing 6 weeks of rugby)

What I said was that Leamy was never the same player after his shoulder reconstruction in 2008 and he was hampered with injury after injury from then on until he eventually had to retire because of the number of injuries he had at the age of 30.

Even with very little rugby prior to the '09 6Ns, he still managed to make the 6Ns team for the Grand Slam.

Podge_irl

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

Considering Heaslip's broad skillset, I would think it is surprising that he always plays at 8. He's not so much a specialist 8 as he is a complete backrower.

There would definitely be value in Leinster playing someone like Conan at 8 and shifting Heaslip to 6 in certain games, as it would help the younger player develop. Stander or SOB could also provide a much stronger carrying threat off the base for ireland on certain attacking scrums.

I would agree. The fact he has played nowhere but 8 is irrelevant, he clearly has the skillset to play anywhere along the backrow. His control at the base of the scrum has always been better than other versatile backrows (e.g. SOB) and he's a good carrier in tight channels in terms of cleaning up ball and recycling cleanly. Would be curious as to whether it is something we will see as they look to put his long term successor in place (would think it more likely at Leinster than Ireland to be honest).

Anyhoos, about the only backrow question facing Ireland is whether Ruddock or TOD ends up on the bench on Saturday, assuming SOB is indeed back fit.

If there's any question marks whatsoever over SOB, TOD gets the bench spot.

Mr Tickle

Yeah TOD's head injury sounds like it's ok. Although Ruddock has been used used at 7 in the past and was decent.

shuffol

Heaslip has always frustrated me slightly, I've always felt he had the ability to be the best no.8 in the world. It's a strange gripe to have with him I know as he's been a superb servant for Ireland and consistently one of the best 8s in the 6N. However there have been instances where he's raised his game to a new level and I feel it's coincided with when he's had added competition. It's not a slight on him, players always say that competition brings the best out of him and Heaslip has been head and shoulders above his rivals for Leinster and Ireland since he broke into both sides.

Neil3030

I think TOD's speed could give us an edge off the bench over Ruddock, given the size of the French pack, they could probably cope with Ruddock's bulk after 50 minutes better than TOD's speed. We'd also have a specialist 7 to cover SOB, who is returning from injury.

Tarf1234

Neil3030 wrote: »

I think TOD's speed could give us an edge off the bench over Ruddock, given the size of the French pack, they could probably cope with Ruddock's bulk after 50 minutes better than TOD's speed. We'd also have a specialist 7 to cover SOB, who is returning from injury.

I'd go with Ruddock personally. Given the size of the French pack, we could probably do with the size and strength for the last 30. I don't think TOD's pace would really change the game at that stage. Where as, if we start getting bullied losing power and size would be a very big issue.

Mahatma Geansai

I'm still sad that we never got to see a backrow of Ferris/SOB/Wallace. It could have been a thing of beauty.

Hopefully Joe will treat us to a backrow of Henderson/Stander/SOB at some point during his tenure. It is the closest we will get to the former and would give us a small taste at what could have been.

shuffol

Heaslip has always frustrated me slightly, I've always felt he had the ability to be the best no.8 in the world. It's a strange gripe to have with him I know as he's been a superb servant for Ireland and consistently one of the best 8s in the 6N. However there have been instances where he's raised his game to a new level and I feel it's coincided with when he's had added competition. It's not a slight on him, players always say that competition brings the best out of him and Heaslip has been head and shoulders above his rivals for Leinster and Ireland since he broke into both sides.

RobbieRuns

shuffol wrote: »

Heaslip has always frustrated me slightly, I've always felt he had the ability to be the best no.8 in the world. It's a strange gripe to have with him I know as he's been a superb servant for Ireland and consistently one of the best 8s in the 6N. However there have been instances where he's raised his game to a new level and I feel it's coincided with when he's had added competition. It's not a slight on him, players always say that competition brings the best out of him and Heaslip has been head and shoulders above his rivals for Leinster and Ireland since he broke into both sides.

Jamie is one of the best 8's in the world. I hear your point, but no one is on top form in every single game, you can't be MOTM in every game, you want someone who is consistently good and for me that is Jamie. Everybody needs the fear of competition to drive them on, but in terms of giving their best every game and doing it consistently, then Jamie is your man. As for staying fit, could you get any better?

Neil3030

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

I'm still sad that we never got to see a backrow of Ferris/SOB/Wallace. It could have been a thing of beauty.

Hopefully Joe will treat us to a backrow of Henderson/Stander/SOB at some point during his tenure. It is the closest we will get to the former and would give us a small taste at what could have been.

It would certainly brown a few pairs of shorts, but unless a superstar lock comes through in the next few years, I can't see a fit Henderson playing anywhere other than second row unfortunately.

Mahatma Geansai

RobbieRuns wrote: »

Jamie is one of the best 8's in the world. I hear your point, but no one is on top form in every single game, you can't be MOTM in every game, you want someone who is consistently good and for me that is Jamie. Everybody needs the fear of competition to drive them on, but in terms of giving their best every game and doing it consistently, then Jamie is your man. As for staying fit, could you get any better?

CJ Stander laughs at you.:D

shuffol

RobbieRuns wrote: »

Jamie is one of the best 8's in the world. I hear your point, but no one is on top form in every single game, you can't be MOTM in every game, you want someone who is consistently good and for me that is Jamie. Everybody needs the fear of competition to drive them on, but in terms of giving their best every game and doing it consistently, then Jamie is your man. As for staying fit, could you get any better?

It's not a criticism of him, more a testament to how talented I think he is that I think he could've been even better if he had somebody giving him a nudge more frequently. I think the Lions tours in particular his form beforehand and during really spiked.

Your Motm point reminded me of a time back in 2010 when SOB was picking them up weekly, Heaslip when receiving one after a game jokingly asked was he supposed to give it to O'Brien.

swiwi_

sydthebeat wrote: »

it really is so sad theres such a hatred out there towards an irish player from posters who use the most mindless junk to disparage him.

of the 6 no 8s on show last weekend id take heaslip each and every day. For all of parisse's open play action, and he's a tremendous player... he still does head less things. There were at least 3 incidents against france which cost his team. The first when he was adjudged to have deliberately knocked on and he chose to stop and argue rather than retreat and set the line quickly... result, french try. Second was where he was adjudged to have been held in the tackle. He was on the ground with a french player on him, he never should have attempted to get to his feet again. And the third was the drop goal attempt, which i would actually have sympathy for him in.

Billy V got motm, again for open play action... but jesus at the back of a scrum he has the control of an epileptic elephant.

Toby is the closest to heaslip and a work horse, but i think Jamie has a bigger physical presence.

Ah truth is in the middle somewhere. Whenever heaslip comes up on this forum there are those who think he's barely AIL level and then those who think he is absolutely world class.

Outside of Ireland he would be considered top international class for sure but fans from France Italy wales Scotland and England would in the majority take Parisse ahead of Heaslip. You must remember Parisse is largely surrounded by dross whereas that is not the case for Heaslip.

Edit: although I don't agree with the list, the Telegraph has Heaslip at 8 and Parisse at 2.

Pretty certain Heaslip won 6 MoTM awards in a row before...

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

Pretty certain Heaslip won 6 MoTM awards in a row before...

Didn't realise he has played outside Tommy O'Donnell that many times...!

Shefwedfan

For those complaining about Heaslip see below, this was pointed out on Off the Ball

Heaslip: 15 carrys 43m made , 18 tackles, 1 missed, 3 turn overs, didnt lose ball in contact
Stander: 23 carrys 38m made, 12 tackles 0 missed, 0 turn overs, lost ball twice in contact

Interesting reading.

Zzippy

Well we all know how MOTM awards are completely objective criteria of how good a player is. Just ask Frankie...

aimee1

Zzippy wrote: »

Well we all know how MOTM awards are completely objective criteria of how good a player is. Just ask Frankie...

or donal, or shane horgan ......

Mahatma Geansai

Shefwedfan wrote: »

For those complaining about Heaslip see below, this was pointed out on Off the Ball

Heaslip: 15 carrys 43m made , 18 tackles, 1 missed, 3 turn overs, didnt lose ball in contact
Stander: 23 carrys 38m made, 12 tackles 0 missed, 0 turn overs, lost ball twice in contact

Interesting reading.

Its worth mentioning that 23 carries is practically unheard of. Especially so, considering that possession was essentially split 50:50. I believe that it was mentioned that, since 2000, only 5 players have ever carried more in a single 6N game than Stander against Wales. Add to that, only Heaslip, McGrath, and Payne tackled more than Stander. It was a phenomenal debut.

Heaslip had his best game for Ireland in years. It was a great performance from him.

thomond2006

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

Its worth mentioning that 23 carries is practically unheard of. Especially so, considering that possession was essentially split 50:50. I believe that it was mentioned that, since 2000, only 5 players have ever carried more in a single 6N game than Stander against Wales. Add to that, only Heaslip, McGrath, and Payne tackled more than Stander. It was a phenomenal debut.

Heaslip had his best game for Ireland in years. It was a great performance from him.

The only minor complaint I had regarding Stander was for both the knockons he perhaps tried to take too much on himself and got isolated in contact. It's similar to what he does at Munster (i.e. carry after carry after carry) but the Welsh defence was excellent on Sunday. I'm sure things like that will be ironed out with more appearances and time in camp. As debuts go it was excellent. It will be very interesting to see what happens in the summer tour when POM will hopefully be fully fit.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Looking at photos from training today. SOB and Rob K both there but can't see Kearney in any of the "action" photos. SOB looks like he's fully training. Earls definitely sat it out, which we knew.

Shefwedfan

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

Its worth mentioning that 23 carries is practically unheard of. Especially so, considering that possession was essentially split 50:50. I believe that it was mentioned that, since 2000, only 5 players have ever carried more in a single 6N game than Stander against Wales. Add to that, only Heaslip, McGrath, and Payne tackled more than Stander. It was a phenomenal debut.

Heaslip had his best game for Ireland in years. It was a great performance from him.

I don't disagree with you in regards to the 23 carry's by Standar and it was a wonderful debut and please dont take the post above as an attack on Standar. I wanted him to start and I knew he would do well of he did get his chance

I posted the above more as a point of reference towards Heaslip. For all the good press Standar is getting it might also be good to point out how well Heaslip played as well

former total

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Looking at photos from training today. SOB and Rob K both there but can't see Kearney in any of the "action" photos. SOB looks like he's fully training. Earls definitely sat it out, which we knew.

Looks like Zebo sat it out too...

Shefwedfan

thomond2006 wrote: »

The only minor complaint I had regarding Stander was for both the knockons he perhaps tried to take too much on himself and got isolated in contact. It's similar to what he does at Munster (i.e. carry after carry after carry) but the Welsh defence was excellent on Sunday. I'm sure things like that will be ironed out with more appearances and time in camp. As debuts go it was excellent. It will be very interesting to see what happens in the summer tour when POM will hopefully be fully fit.

I think all of this is bad new for tommy o'donnell, When POM comes back in I can see him dropping out of team and maybe squad. With the likes of Van Der Flier and Ruddock coming up and have age on there side I think it is the beginning of the end for O'Donnell.

I also see Chris Henry losing out going forward.

First Up

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I don't disagree with you in regards to the 23 carry's by Standar and it was a wonderful debut and please dont take the post above as an attack on Standar. I wanted him to start and I knew he would do well of he did get his chance

I posted the above more as a point of reference towards Heaslip. For all the good press Standar is getting it might also be good to point out how well Heaslip played as well

Heaslip had a great game and some analysts gave him higher marks than Stander. However I didn't begrudge Stander the MOM because I thought he really led from the front and set the tone, especially early on. It got the crowd up and gave us a psychological edge that we really needed.

JPNelsforearm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I think all of this is bad new for tommy o'donnell, When POM comes back in I can see him dropping out of team and maybe squad. With the likes of Van Der Flier and Ruddock coming up and have age on there side I think it is the beginning of the end for O'Donnell.

I also see Chris Henry losing out going forward.

"When POM comes back in"

Very presumptuous, Stander, SOB and Heaslip are head and shoulders above him , VdF, Ruddock, Henry and TOD performance wise are his equal when you look at all their individual traits. POM is good on the deck and in the lineout, not a great tackler/carrier. He's got a fight on his hands to get back in the squad.

jm08

Shefwedfan wrote: »

For those complaining about Heaslip see below, this was pointed out on Off the Ball

Heaslip: 15 carrys 43m made , 18 tackles, 1 missed, 3 turn overs, didnt lose ball in contact
Stander: 23 carrys 38m made, 12 tackles 0 missed, 0 turn overs, lost ball twice in contact

Interesting reading.

compared to last years 6Ns (Wales v Ireland)
Heaslip: 19 carrys, 15m. 6 tackles made, 1 missed. No turnovers conceeded.
SOB: 19 carrys, 25m. 11 tackles made, 1 missed. 1 turnover conceeded.

molloyjh

Shefwedfan wrote: »

For those complaining about Heaslip see below, this was pointed out on Off the Ball

Heaslip: 15 carrys 43m made , 18 tackles, 1 missed, 3 turn overs, didnt lose ball in contact
Stander: 23 carrys 38m made, 12 tackles 0 missed, 0 turn overs, lost ball twice in contact

Interesting reading.

Stander turned the ball over in contact twice, lost it in contact once (but luckily it went backwards and we retained possession) and then also lost it in contact another time which gave the Welsh possession but we had an advantage. He had an amazing first half, and was good in the second half, but it wasn't a perfect performance and you can be sure Joe will be on him to tidy up that element of his game.

Mahatma Geansai

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

"When POM comes back in"

Very presumptuous, Stander, SOB and Heaslip are head and shoulders above him , VdF, Ruddock, Henry and TOD performance wise are his equal when you look at all their individual traits. POM is good on the deck and in the lineout, not a great tackler/carrier. He's got a fight on his hands to get back in the squad.

POM was Ireland's best player in 2015. He is our next captain and is one of the first names down on the teamsheet. It will be interesting to see how Joe manages the backrow with every one fit, though.

I think its going to be a tug-of-war between Stander and Heaslip for the 8 jersey, with the younger guy eventually winning out.

molloyjh

jm08 wrote: »

compared to last years 6Ns (Wales v Ireland)
Heaslip: 19 carrys, 15m. 6 tackles made, 1 missed. No turnovers conceeded.
SOB: 19 carrys, 25m. 11 tackles made, 1 missed. 1 turnover conceeded.

Clearly shows Heaslips versatility as he obviously was playing 2 different roles in the 2 respective games.

First Up

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

POM was Ireland's best player in 2015. He is our next captain and is one of the first names down on the teamsheet. It will be interesting to see how Joe manages the backrow with every one fit, though.

I think its going to be a tug-of-war between Stander and Heaslip for the 8 jersey, with the younger guy eventually winning out.

Its nice to be spoilt for choice.

MJohnston

Sexton shoulder injury and didn't train (will on Thursday), McFadden called up for Earls, Zebo knee injury and didn't train (will on Thursday), Trimble shoulder injury and didn't train (same deal about Thursday)

Winger Issues
Bowe - out
Fitz - out
Earls - (sat out)
Trimble - (sat out)
Zebo - (sat out)

Just as well we have depth!

McFadden, Gilroy, Healy all next in line?

thomond2006

Deleted User wrote: »

Winger Issues
Bowe - out
Fitz - out
Earls (sat out)
Trimble (sat out)
Zebo (sat out)

We've no choice but to call up Hayes on the wing.

Mahatma Geansai

MJohnston wrote: »

Sexton shoulder injury and didn't train (will on Thursday), McFadden called up for Earls, Zebo knee injury and didn't train (will on Thursday), Trimble shoulder injury and didn't train (same deal about Thursday)

Disappointing to see form players like Gilroy and Healy ignored. I guess McFadden is more familiar with the setup.