Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread V

former total

molloyjh wrote: »

But sure so is Heaslip then. He's lying still for almost as long.

Not sure if serious?

Heaslip is lying still because he's presenting the ball back. Earls is out for the count.

As soon as the ball moves away, Heaslip gets up. Earls very much does not, because if he's not unconscious, he's not far off it.

MJohnston

I think that's unquestionably him getting knocked out, and it's pretty scary tbh - you can see him go to clutch his face and then his body just collapses.

Anatom

He seems to glance off Furlong's back. Its very unusual alright.

Hagz

Well there you have it. The video evidence shows it clearly. His immediate reaction is one of pain and he bring his hand to his face. Anyone arguing that he was out cold must be saying it happened after that initial reaction. Which is complete guesswork and pretty farfetched.

molloyjh

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

He's completely motionless for six or seven seconds.

He's on the ground and not moving for a few seconds. That does not mean he is out cold. This is exactly the kind of alarmist thing we need to get away from. You simply cannot know whether Earls is conscious there or not. It is impossible for you to know. Maybe he is, but then maybe he isn't. There is literally nothing definitive about that video other than the fact that Earls went into contact, hurt himself and went to ground.

The Black Stags

Hagz wrote: »

Well there you have it. The video evidence shows it clearly. His immediate reaction is one of pain and he bring his hand to his face. Anyone arguing that he was out cold must be saying it happened after that initial reaction. Which is complete guesswork and pretty farfetched.

Glad you aren't a doctor.


That's just him repositioning as the ball was dropped and he intended to go for it before it was picked up. I wouldn't worry about that.


He put's his hand on his face and then blacks out. No noticble hit to his head. I'd say it's more to do with the position his neck was forced into and casued a lack of blood to his brain.

molloyjh

former total wrote: »

Not sure if serious?

Heaslip is lying still because he's presenting the ball back. Earls is out for the count.

As soon as the ball moves away, Heaslip gets up. Earls very much does not, because if he's not unconscious, he's not far off it.

Very much not serious. Heaslip lies completely still for almost as long as Earls does. By the definition of "visibly and unmistakably out cold" we're seeing here then it follows that Heaslip was also out cold. Which we all know simply wasn't the case.

My point is that from our position we can guess as to whether Earls was unconscious or not. But that's all we're doing. And second guessing trained, skilled and professional doctors and medics is just a little bit ridiculous. Especially if the whole extent of our examination of the patient is a gif and a youtube video.

MJohnston

molloyjh wrote: »

Very much not serious. Heaslip lies completely still for almost as long as Earls does. By the definition of "visibly and unmistakably out cold" we're seeing here then it follows that Heaslip was also out cold. Which we all know simply wasn't the case.

My point is that from our position we can guess as to whether Earls was unconscious or not. But that's all we're doing. And second guessing trained, skilled and professional doctors and medics is just a little bit ridiculous. Especially if the whole extent of our examination of the patient is a gif and a youtube video.

What has this got to do with doctors or medics though? They (through Joe) clearly stated he was concussed. Nobody is second guessing that.

Hagz

The Black Stags wrote: »

Glad you aren't a doctor.


That's just him repositioning as the ball was dropped and he intended to go for it before it was picked up. I wouldn't worry about that.


He put's his hand on his face and then blacks out. No noticble hit to his head. I'd say it's more to do with the position his neck was forced into and casued a lack of blood to his brain.

So what I've said is that there is no definitive evidence that he was out cold and that the video evidence suggest he wasn't. You on the other hand are purporting that he lost consciousness after bringing his hand to his face because the positioning of his neck restricted the blood flow to his brain.

And you're glad I'm not a doctor?!

molloyjh

MJohnston wrote: »

What has this got to do with doctors or medics though? They (through Joe) clearly stated he was concussed. Nobody is second guessing that.

Concussed does not mean unconscious. Unconscious does not mean concussed.

MJohnston

molloyjh wrote: »

Concussed does not mean unconscious. Unconscious does not mean concussed.

That's not relevant though, you said people were second guessing the medics, who have not said anything about whether he was knocked out or not. They only said he was concussed. How are we second guessing them?

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Doesn't really matter if he was unconscious or not.

He was taken off for a head injury and Schmidt said after it looked like he has a concussion. That's what they're dealing with whether he was passed out or not.

You can get knocked out and not necessarily have a concussion. You can have a concussion without being knocked out.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Doesn't really matter if he was unconscious or not.

He was taken off for a head injury and Schmidt said after it looked like he has a concussion. That's what they're dealing with whether he was passed out or not.

You can get knocked out and not necessarily have a concussion. You can have a concussion without being knocked out.

The Black Stags

Hagz wrote: »

So what I've said is that there is no definitive evidence that he was out cold and that the video evidence suggest he wasn't. You on the other hand are purporting that he lost consciousness after bringing his hand to his face because the positioning of his neck restricted the blood flow to his brain.

And you're glad I'm not a doctor?!

Sorry my mistake I had meant to quote another poster in there who was worried about him being unstable on his feet before going to the ruck.

Yes, he didn't bang his head. You don't need to to loss consciousness - blood from your heart travels through your neck to your brain an interruption in that flow in a high intensity environment like that could fore him to black out.

This isn't hard stuff we're talking about here and it's entirely possible, based on what I can see it looks the most likely scenario.

molloyjh

MJohnston wrote: »

That's not relevant though, you said people were second guessing the medics, who have not said anything about whether he was knocked out or not. They only said he was concussed. How are we second guessing them?

About the severity of the injury. People are saying "oh look he was clearly knocked out so its a really bad concussion and he shouldn't play for the next few weeks". There are a few problems with that entire line of thinking:

1. There is absolutely no clear evidence Earls was knocked out.
2. Whether he was knocked out or not gives no clear indication as to the seriousness of the concussion.
3. Just because he is undergoing the HIA doesn't even mean he was concussed. And I never heard anyone confirm that he was (Joe post match said he looks like he was).
4. The medics and doctors are best placed to decide when Earls is fit to return to play, not a load of armchair pundits, the vast majoriy of whom have no medical training whatsoever.

alias no.9

former total wrote: »

McFadden is the best winger available. He was always going to be called up.

And of course, he has that ability which defines all rugby players, versatility.

He's also got a pretty decent strike rate

MJohnston

phog wrote: »

From Twitter

I hope they're not rushing Earls back.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Not sure how they can say that. If he's following the back to play protocols the most he would have done today is 20 minutes on a bike/treadmill and they'd probably still be monitoring him.
The most they could say with any certainty is he had no immediate reaction to activity today.

former total wrote: »

Surely they cannot name Earls in the team? Best case scenario, he can only pass the return to play protocol the morning of the match.

Deleted User wrote: »

What worried me about Earls is that he went completely out cold and it's hard to see where the impact came from. I watched it back last night and just couldn't figure how it happened.

As others have said, I hope he isn't rushed back, but at the same time I do have faith in the medical team to put his well being first.

molloyjh wrote: »

About the severity of the injury. People are saying "oh look he was clearly knocked out so its a really bad concussion and he shouldn't play for the next few weeks".

But the only people who said that were you and Hagz!

sydthebeat

ah lads, he clearly drops like a dead weight with no movement for about 5 seconds.

if someone drops in pain at a minium his feet would squirm a bit... but they dont... they also remain motionless

phog

molloyjh wrote: »

Very much not serious. Heaslip lies completely still for almost as long as Earls does. By the definition of "visibly and unmistakably out cold" we're seeing here then it follows that Heaslip was also out cold. Which we all know simply wasn't the case.

My point is that from our position we can guess as to whether Earls was unconscious or not. But that's all we're doing. And second guessing trained, skilled and professional doctors and medics is just a little bit ridiculous. Especially if the whole extent of our examination of the patient is a gif and a youtube video.

Did Joe in a post match interview not say that Earls was concussed?

MJohnston

molloyjh wrote: »

Whether he was knocked out or not gives no clear indication as to the seriousness of the concussion.

Nobody said this either, what Venjur said was he was worried about Earls seeming to be knocked out without any specific impact, which CAN BE a sign of serious concussion.

leakyboots

phog wrote: »

Did Joe in a post match interview not say that Earls was concussed?

I think the exact words were 'looks like concussion' (open to correction).

My initial reaction when it happened (and I didn't take my eyes off Earls while play went on) was that he was knocked out, but then his feet moved after a few seconds... so I'm not sure.

Not that I'm even remotely resembling an expert anyway, I trust the medical staff to make the correct call in all of this

The Black Stags

phog wrote: »

Did Joe in a post match interview not say that Earls was concussed?

Just watched it

He said:

"he probably suffered a concussion. again at this stage i don't know the full story. I think he passed his HIA, but he may have staggered. Therefore he would have been considered o have had a concussive impact and that would certainly put him in doubt for next weekend."


4:28 into the post match press conference.

Mr Tickle

The Black Stags wrote: »

Just watched it

He said:

"he probably suffered a concussion. again at this stage i don't know the full story. I think he passed his HIA, but he may have staggered. Therefore he would have been considered o have had a concussive impact and that would certainly put him in doubt for next weekend."


4:28 into the post match press conference.

Does this mean that they saw a stagger on the pitch or is it part of the assessment? I'm not familiar with the test.

fyi this isn't me desperately defending my comment on him looking unsteady on his feet. It probably was him considering going for the ball.

Mahatma Geansai

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

POM was Ireland's best player in 2015. He is our next captain and is one of the first names down on the teamsheet. It will be interesting to see how Joe manages the backrow with every one fit, though.

I think its going to be a tug-of-war between Stander and Heaslip for the 8 jersey, with the younger guy eventually winning out.

I don't think this is as definitive as you state. He could be stuck behind Stander, Heaslip and SOB injury permitting for a few years until Heaslip gets over the hill.

Hagz

MJohnston wrote: »

But the only people who said that were you and Hagz!

What I'm saying, and I won't speak on behalf of Molloy, is that there is a definite alarmist atmosphere surrounding the incident. First initially as people were very quick to declare that he was knocked out even though the video evidence shows no clear evidence that he was.

Secondly when news emerged that he might be fit and clear to play, there was definite questioning of such a report.

Yes Earls was diagnosed with having suffered a concussive impact, but it's not a black and white situation. He didn't go for a scan and receive results. The medics erred on the side of caution based on the fact that he staggered. They have to apply a certain amount of guesswork, and in this particular instance the call was made purely on feeling. Evidence suggests he wasn't knocked out after a minor impact, and he passed the HIA. Like I said, they erred on the side of caution because he staggered. It's entirely plausible that he didn't in fact suffer a concussion and that he's fine to play this weekend.

molloyjh

MJohnston wrote: »

But the only people who said that were you and Hagz!

It's probably worth looking back to my first post on this where I wasn't addressing anything in particular that someone was saying here, but more making a general point about reactions to this kind of thing. What followed was a specific conversation then about whether Earls was knocked out or not. That said....

phog wrote: »

I hope they're not rushing Earls back.

Anatom wrote: »

Definitely. He was out of it. I would hesitate to bring him back in at all for a couple of weeks at least. Its not worth it, for his own sake.

MJohnston wrote: »

I think that's unquestionably him getting knocked out, and it's pretty scary tbh - you can see him go to clutch his face and then his body just collapses.

Given what we know about the situation (as opposed to what we're assuming) is it really "pretty scary"? Or are the things you are assuming to be true about this case "pretty scary"? We don't know for a fact if he was unconscious or if he even picked up a concussion. For all we know he could be fit and good to go on Saturday. So what exactly (from a factual perspective) was "pretty scary"?

You may not have specifically said anything about resting him for a few weeks, but there is an element of alarmist reaction to what you said.

CMOTDibbler

Hagz wrote: »

What I'm saying, and I won't speak on behalf of Molloy, is that there is a definite alarmist atmosphere surrounding the incident. First initially as people were very quick to declare that he was knocked out even though the video evidence shows no clear evidence that he was.

People said he looked like he was out cold. Nobody can be definitive about it seeing as we're looking at video but he's motionless for six or seven seconds which is an indication of that. That's all. Nobody's making any qualitative judgments about it and if the medics say he's ok, then he's ok.

There's also a possibility that he's not. I think that's as much as can be said about it.

mfceiling

molloyjh wrote: »

He's on the ground and not moving for a few seconds. That does not mean he is out cold. This is exactly the kind of alarmist thing we need to get away from. You simply cannot know whether Earls is conscious there or not. It is impossible for you to know. Maybe he is, but then maybe he isn't. There is literally nothing definitive about that video other than the fact that Earls went into contact, hurt himself and went to ground.

Personally I don't think it's "alarmist". If someone gets a bang and lies motionless for a while I'd be inclined to err on the side of caution and get them off the field.
I'd let the medics make the call then. I hope Earls is ok but I wouldn't like to see him rushed back.

Hagz

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

People said he looked like he was out cold. Nobody can be definitive about it seeing as we're looking at video but he's motionless for six or seven seconds which is an indication of that. That's all. Nobody's making any qualitative judgments about it and if the medics say he's ok, then he's ok.

There's also a possibility that he's not. I think that's as much as can be said about it.

Well I disagree. Looking back there were certainly posts that were definitive on the issue.

mfceiling

leakyboots wrote: »

Nothing tops Wallace though, the best forward Munster and Ireland have ever had, in my opinion.

Don't answer the door when you hear the knock tonight.....Stevie Ferris will be there ready to batter you!!!!

Hagz

Can you imagine if Stephen Ferris was still around. Holy mother of god.

CMOTDibbler

Caption contest:

MJohnston

molloyjh wrote: »

It's probably worth looking back to my first post on this where I wasn't addressing anything in particular that someone was saying here, but more making a general point about reactions to this kind of thing. What followed was a specific conversation then about whether Earls was knocked out or not. That said....

Given what we know about the situation (as opposed to what we're assuming) is it really "pretty scary"? Or are the things you are assuming to be true about this case "pretty scary"? We don't know for a fact if he was unconscious or if he even picked up a concussion. For all we know he could be fit and good to go on Saturday. So what exactly (from a factual perspective) was "pretty scary"?

You may not have specifically said anything about resting him for a few weeks, but there is an element of alarmist reaction to what you said.

I think you and I are going to have to agree to disagree on what is alarmist or not. One person said he should stay out for a couple of weeks, someone else expressed a hope that it wasn't rushed, and I said that watching someone apparently get knocked out like that is pretty scary (which has no inherent connection to whether or not I think he should be back this weekend) - in the specific way that someone could be sent out cold without any kind of impact (which is unfortunately true in the world of concussion).

Alarmist to me would be saying that Earls should retire now, not that maybe he needs to sit out this one match - which I'm not even saying myself, I'll trust in the medical staff for now (I will say that there are still lingering questions over how effective Return To Play protocols are)

former total

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Caption contest:

Richardt: Incomprehensible Afrikaans.
CJ: HAHAHA

irishbucsfan

If there's any concern about Earls being concussed he should be out for 2 weeks and then evaluated. It's as simple as that.

sydthebeat

former total wrote: »

Richardt: Incomprehensible Afrikaans.
CJ: HAHAHA

be more like HAW HAW HAW i think

bilston

Similar to Sexton if the experts reckon Earls is fine then that is good enough for me.

I don't see how any of us can say he should or shouldn't play.

former total

bilston wrote: »

Similar to Sexton if the experts reckon Earls is fine then that is good enough for me.

I don't see how any of us can say he should or shouldn't play.

Team has to be named on Thursday. Earls can't resume full training until Friday and can only be finally passed fit on Saturday.

I think they have to leave him out.

Neil3030

former total wrote: »

Richardt: Incomprehensible Afrikaans.
CJ: HAHAHA

If the words "braai", "boerewors" or "biltong" didn't feature, I want an investigation into where these lads are really from.

bilston

Just on McFadden getting called up, never mind Gilroy I'd have liked to have seen Scholes involved. Of McFadden knows the systems which stands to him, but given whoever was called is unlikely to have played maybe Scholes could have gone for the experience, a bit like Ringrose last week.

Maybe versatility is more important than form but (Matt Healy notwithstanding who I haven't seen play much) I'd be hard pushed to think of a more in form winger than Scholes in the last few weeks.

CMOTDibbler

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Caption contest:

Richardt: Which national anthem were you singing?
CJ: Amhran na bhFiann, in Afrikaans

Clearlier

jacothelad wrote: »

The question that should be asked of any player is "What has he done this season to deserve a call up to the Ireland side / squad?" That may not be the only criterion that is used but it is always relevant.

Actually the question that a coach asks is 'what can a player bring to the team?'

Gilroy is an absolutely top class runner but in the half dozen or so times that I've seen him play I've not once seen him pass the ball. I'm sure that he can and indeed has done. I'm also sure that if selected he would make a contribution to the team but it's far from unreasonable to consider that his one huge plus might be outweighed by someone else's multiple pluses in other aspects of the game. Remember also that we're talking about two players who are not first choice for their provinces when all are fit.

jacothelad

Clearlier wrote: »

Actually the question that a coach asks is 'what can a player bring to the team?'

Gilroy is an absolutely top class runner but in the half dozen or so times that I've seen him play I've not once seen him pass the ball. I'm sure that he can and indeed has done. I'm also sure that if selected he would make a contribution to the team but it's far from unreasonable to consider that his one huge plus might be outweighed by someone else's multiple pluses in other aspects of the game. Remember also that we're talking about two players who are not first choice for their provinces when all are fit.

You must keep going out for refills.....

http://www.ulsterrugby.com/team/player.php?PlayId=96567#.Vrom19CdP7w

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

irishbucsfan wrote: »

If there's any concern about Earls being concussed he should be out for 2 weeks and then evaluated. It's as simple as that.

The documentary about concussion that was on RTÉ just before the World Cup didn't say anything about waiting 2 weeks.
They said day after the impact is complete rest. Next day is 20 minutes light exercise and they're monitored. If there are no negative reactions activity is increased the next day and so on. Fail at any stage and you have to go back to the very start.

That said George North was told to take a month off before they'd assess him. I suppose it depends on the individual and their history of head injuries.

wp_rathead

aimee1 wrote: »

Or mcfadden can be useful on the bench to cover a few positions. Criticism for the sake of it

It's really not "criticism for the sake of it"
Healy and indeed Gilroy are in great form where as McFadden is not playing well
If McFadden is called in as replacement for the winger Earls it is totally justifiable to point out there are players more deserving going on form..

The Lost Sheep

irishbucsfan wrote: »

If there's any concern about Earls being concussed he should be out for 2 weeks and then evaluated. It's as simple as that.

But the pros don't work under that system. They have full time medics and are looked after. Amatuers RTP is different. Any amateur player minimum rest period is 2 weeks but pro players are different.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

The documentary about concussion that was on RTÉ just before the World Cup didn't say anything about waiting 2 weeks.
They said day after the impact is complete rest. Next day is 20 minutes light exercise and they're monitored. If there are no negative reactions activity is increased the next day and so on. Fail at any stage and you have to go back to the very start.

That said George North was told to take a month off before they'd assess him. I suppose it depends on the individual and their history of head injuries.

Yes its completely about past history/the individual and how bad the impact was.

irishbucsfan

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

The documentary about concussion that was on RTÉ just before the World Cup didn't say anything about waiting 2 weeks.
They said day after the impact is complete rest. Next day is 20 minutes light exercise and they're monitored. If there are no negative reactions activity is increased the next day and so on. Fail at any stage and you have to go back to the very start.

That said George North was told to take a month off before they'd assess him. I suppose it depends on the individual and their history of head injuries.

You're referring to the return to play protocols for someone where there is the possibility of a concussion. That's different than when there is suspicion of a concussion.

Arbitrary layoffs have no medical or scientific basis.

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/concussion-tests-wont-fix-the-concussion-problem/

A randomized trial published early this year found no benefit from putting concussed kids and adolescents on a regimen of strict rest for five days, compared with one or two days of rest followed by a gradual return to normal activities. “I don’t know why we treat concussion any differently from any other injury where we use our clinical judgment about when someone is ready to go back to play,” Randolph said.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Deleted User wrote: »

Arbitrary layoffs have no medical or scientific basis.

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/concussion-tests-wont-fix-the-concussion-problem/

It would probably depend on how obvious the symptoms are. If someone is blacking out or throwing up for a few days the impact you're obviously going to tell them to take a little break. If they're a bit groggy imidiately after the impact and then fine an hour later the normal day off and then assess would be fine.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

It would probably depend on how obvious the symptoms are. If someone is blacking out or throwing up for a few days the impact you're obviously going to tell them to take a little break. If they're a bit groggy imidiately after the impact and then fine an hour later the normal day off and then assess would be fine.

that's exactly the point. Arbitrary layoffs i.e "after KO you must take 5 days rest" have zero medical grounding.

Some cases the person may be okay within a day, others months.