Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread V

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Deleted User wrote: »

that's exactly the point. Arbitrary layoffs i.e "after KO you must take 5 days rest" have zero medical grounding.

Some cases the person may be okay within a day, others months.

That's why the protocol is 20 minutes on the 2nd day after impact, assuming a player is capable, monitor for reaction and continue from there.

Again, obviously it would depend on the player in question and their history. After George North got knocked out for the 3rd time last season they made him take a month or more off completely.

EDIT: I don't know why that angry face is at the top of my post. On my phone... fat fingers....

irishbucsfan

We're both saying the same thing!

I probably should've quoted the arbitrary figure quoted earlier

irishbucsfan wrote: »

If there's any concern about Earls being concussed he should be out for 2 weeks and then evaluated. It's as simple as that.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Deleted User wrote: »

We're both saying the same thing!

I know!

Guy on the news saying Rob K did train today fully.

Also Sexton's lady wife had a baby yesterday/today?

vienne86

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Also Sexton's lady wife had a baby yesterday/today?

Well that sounds like the best reason of all anyone could have to be absent from training! Nice news.

irishbucsfan

Deleted User wrote: »

that's exactly the point. Arbitrary layoffs i.e "after KO you must take 5 days rest" have zero medical grounding.

Some cases the person may be okay within a day, others months.

There's nothing arbitrary about 2 weeks for a suspected concussion. That's the period over which symptoms can appear and that is why we enforce that timescale amateur level where we don't have the opportunity to go through the RTP protocols, the tests to elevate them from 'potential for a concussion' to 'suspicion of a concussion'.

That 538 article is about the former of those two btw, which is where professional outfits have been getting things dangerously wrong for such a long time (establishing evidence or in some casing just acknowledging it). If a player has had a concussive impact and has been seen losing balance as a result then you have your results without the need for imPACT or any other similar testing regime like the RTP used in rugby.

MugMugs

wp_rathead wrote: »

It's really not "criticism for the sake of it"
Healy and indeed Gilroy are in great form where as McFadden is not playing well
If McFadden is called in as replacement for the winger Earls it is totally justifiable to point out there are players more deserving going on form..

Can't really get my head around it either.

Kilroy and even Cave and strides above McFadden. Can't understand Schmidts reluctance to play them.

irishbucsfan

MugMugs wrote: »

Can't really get my head around it either.

Kilroy and even Cave and strides above McFadden. Can't understand Schmidts reluctance to play them.

Cave isn't a winger?

And he played at the world cup at center ahead of McFadden.

Gilroy is an exciting player going forward and scores lovely tries but he struggles elsewhere

MugMugs

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Cave isn't a winger?

And he played at the world cup at center ahead of McFadden.

Gilroy is an exciting player going forward and scores lovely tries but he struggles elsewhere

No but Payne is.

McFadden has hardly been at the races this season.

Let's face it. This is purely a cover call up. We'll probably see trimble and Kearney start. Who would you rather sitting on the bench to replace either of them?

bilston

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Cave isn't a winger?

And he played at the world cup at center ahead of McFadden.

Gilroy is an exciting player going forward and scores lovely tries but he struggles elsewhere

I'd say any one of Gilroy, Scholes and from what I read Healy could be rated ahead of McFadden as a winger this season, but hey ho McFadden is versatile and experienced and knows the systems so it's understandable that he got the call.

The Black Stags

MugMugs wrote: »

No but Payne is.

McFadden has hardly been at the races this season.

Let's face it. This is purely a cover call up. We'll probably see trimble and Kearney start. Who would you rather sitting on the bench to replace either of them?

Depending on how beat up the guys are after the match it'll probably be trimble, DK and RK. With Zebo on the bench.

MugMugs

The Black Stags wrote: »

. With Zebo on the bench.

Christ i Hope you're wrong after Sundays display.

He was out of position more than he was in. Can't imagine Schmidt was very happy with him or that he did much good for his own position in the squad.

The Rape of Lucretia

MugMugs wrote: »

Christ i Hope you're wrong after Sundays display.

He was out of position more than he was in. Can't imagine Schmidt was very happy with him or that he did much good for his own position in the squad.

I think he will be there too, but more a case of best of a bad lot.
There arent really any other options of players who have involved in the national scene. The days of just flinging someone into the national team because of some good recent form are long gone. These days, you need form to get involved, then form again later to get selected. Zeebs on the bench it must be.

Clearlier

jacothelad wrote: »

You must keep going out for refills.....

http://www.ulsterrugby.com/team/player.php?PlayId=96567#.Vrom19CdP7w

Nah, it's mostly that I just don't watch Ulster play very often. Those are interesting stats. Hard to compare them with others because different positions obviously call for different levels of passing but Trimble seemed like an option as he plays the same position and has never been known as a good passer of the ball - in fact IIRC his poor passing ability was a big part of the reason that he moved from outside centre to the wing. Anyway he has 37 carries, 19 passes and 6 offloads in European games compared to Gilroy's 72 carries, 21 passes and 2 offloads. The both got 2 tries and Gilroy had one more appearance.

Pro 12 (played, carried, passed, offloaded, tries)
Gilroy 10 - 97 - 24 - 1 - 4
Trimble 9 - 63 - 38 - 4 - 1


On the plus side Gilroy gets through quite a bit more work in attack it seems and does a lot more kicking than Trimble but the stats do suggest that he doesn't pass the ball very often.

My original point was that from what I've seen Gilroy is an outstanding runner but relatively weak in other parts of the game. If he has developed and become a more complete rugby player then great but I've heard nobody argue that - all I've heard is that he's a great attacker which he is but you need more than that to your game to play regularly for Ireland.

Clearlier

MugMugs wrote: »

Christ i Hope you're wrong after Sundays display.

He was out of position more than he was in. Can't imagine Schmidt was very happy with him or that he did much good for his own position in the squad.

Zebo brings other things to the team than Kearney, his lines of running are much better but the things that Kearney brings are more valuable to Ireland. There's no point in asking Zebo to do his best impression of Kearney - you won't get the best out of him that way. I thought that we adapted our game slightly in that when counter attacking we looked to get the ball into Zebo's hands in the middle of the pitch as early as possible and let him try a few things with it. Unfortunately with Trimble and Earls on the wings you're not looking at wingers who naturally operate as auxiliary fullbacks which increases the need for Kearney to be in the side.

He was definitely caught out of position a few times but I'd be astonished if Schmidt was surprised at that. Even if about half of his caps for Ireland have been at fullback he's really not at all experienced at playing the position.

.ak

Hmm, as a Leinster fan I can say hand on heart that McFadden should be nowhere near the squad. However, that to me implies Kearney, Zebo, Trimble will all be fit.

I reckon it'll be the same back three the last time we won in Stade de France; Two Kearney's and a Trimble.

Zebo to bench. Earls a week too soon!

vienne86

.ak wrote: »

Hmm, as a Leinster fan I can say hand on heart that McFadden should be nowhere near the squad. However, that to me implies Kearney, Zebo, Trimble will all be fit.

I reckon it'll be the same back three the last time we won in Stade de France; Two Kearney's and a Trimble.

Zebo to bench. Earls a week too soon!

Yes, I agree with you there, and I hope Leinster get McFadden back for Friday.

I'd be very happy with that back three on Saturday. I think Trimble should be strong enough to deal with Vakatawu.

former total

.ak wrote: »

Hmm, as a Leinster fan I can say hand on heart that McFadden should be nowhere near the squad. However, that to me implies Kearney, Zebo, Trimble will all be fit.

I reckon it'll be the same back three the last time we won in Stade de France; Two Kearney's and a Trimble.

Zebo to bench. Earls a week too soon!

Talk me through the first bit? How does it imply that they'll all be fit?

Blackclaret

From what I've heard Earls is better than 50/50 to start in Paris.

aimee1

former total wrote: »

Talk me through the first bit? How does it imply that they'll all be fit?

because he called in a guy who covers a few positions and not an out and out winger. No specific concerns [earls aside] so just have a cover option in the group

Billysays no

.ak wrote: »

Hmm, as a Leinster fan I can say hand on heart that McFadden should be nowhere near the squad. However, that to me implies Kearney, Zebo, Trimble will all be fit.

I reckon it'll be the same back three the last time we won in Stade de France; Two Kearney's and a Trimble.

Zebo to bench. Earls a week too soon!

Zebo retired. Gilroy playing. Dkearney benched. McFadden? How, where!

.ak

former total wrote: »

Talk me through the first bit? How does it imply that they'll all be fit?

Because I think McFadden is just there to fill in running defence etc. making up the numbers. If they needed someone to play I think they'd pick someone else.

.ak

Blackclaret wrote: »

From what I've heard Earls is better than 50/50 to start in Paris.

That disappoints me. The guys was out cold over no contact at all really. Feels like everyone is just waving the HIA around like its a new Bible and all ye who do not believe must repent.

.ak

.ak wrote: »

Because I think McFadden is just there to fill in running defence etc. making up the numbers. If they needed someone to play I think they'd pick someone else.

I sort of agree with your logic. However am I correct in saying that McFadden is the only other winger currently fit who has ever played under Schmidt?

If you need to bring someone in less than 5 days before an important away test I think you bring in the guy who knows the system and has a good idea of the fundamentals.

I don't think McFadden will be in the 23 this Friday, but I think it's very much specifically him that was brought in should that eventuality arise.

If it was for the purpose of training I think we'd have seen one of the up and coming talents that are earmarked for the future. I think McFadden is there because if parachuted into the team he will be the most familiar with game plan / defensive patters etc. We've seen how important "knowing your role" is within a Joe Schmidt drilled team.

.ak

.ak wrote: »

That disappoints me. The guys was out cold over no contact at all really. Feels like everyone is just waving the HIA around like its a new Bible and all ye who do not believe must repent.

We've concluded that he may not have been out cold. Could have just been having a little nap, or was cuddling upto Heaslip (who may have also been out cold at the time as he wasn't moving much).

awec

"Knowing your role" only goes so far though, especially when better options are available.

It's like someone arguing for Noel Reid to start at 12 if Henshaw got injured cause cause Reid has played for Schmidt before. Sure, he might be a bit more familiar but he's still the wrong option.

In this case McFadden seems like a pretty odd choice. I don't buy he's just called up to hold tackle bags either, they usually don't announce those guys to the press. Usually if someone is announced it's because they have a chance of being selected.

The Rape of Lucretia

leakyboots wrote: »

I think the exact words were 'looks like concussion' (open to correction). I trust the medical staff to make the correct call in all of this

Not everyone does trust them anymore though.

Not through wilful negligence, but the drive is to get players to play. The issue is concussion, fitness to play, and risk, are not black and white. So in the absence of a clear decision, diagnosis, or rule preventing a player taking the field, it is easy for the tendency to be let the player play, possibly from the player himself as much as anyone else - 'hey, we arent breaking any protocol or being clearly reckless'. Rather than just err on the side of safety - "skip one game Earlsie, dont risk it even though you feel fine, we will monitor you, and that gives you 3 weeks of from whatever happened last Sunday". Will de disappointed if he plays (and he had a good team imo - deserved to hold his place if he hadnt taken the knock).

awec

awec wrote: »

"Knowing your role" only goes so far though, especially when better options are available.

It's like someone arguing for Noel Reid to start at 12 if Henshaw got injured cause cause Reid has played for Schmidt before. Sure, he might be a bit more familiar but he's still the wrong option.

Reid hasn't played for Ireland under Joe. McFadden Played throughout our 2014 winning six nations campaign so that comparison is wholly inaccurate.

And with 4 and a bit days turnaround you may not go for the best option, but the safest one.

Against the Head was particularly good yesterday. Jackman went into detail about how well drilled Ireland are compared to any other team in Europe. He also went into some detail about how are defensive alignment was much better with Payne at 13 and how it improved throughout the game as people got more comfortable with the guys inside and outside doing the right thing.

That's what "Knowing your role" does and knowing the system. Fundamental and critical to how Ireland have been playing.

Sometimes having everyone on the same page, is better than having 14 guys on the same page and one guy (though very talented) completely at sea.

The Rape of Lucretia

awec wrote: »

I don't buy he's just called up to hold tackle bags either, they usually don't announce those guys to the press. Usually if someone is announced it's because they have a chance of being selected.

Absolutely. McFadden would play if there was an injury crisis of those already in the squad. The idea that someone else would be parachuted in if they really had to play Ferg is fanciful - Ferg would start. And it makes sense. Continuity and experience is worth more than 'form' at international rugby. Throwing in cold some bright you thing cutting it up in the Pro12 is not how Joe does it.

aimee1

.ak wrote: »

That disappoints me. The guys was out cold over no contact at all really. Feels like everyone is just waving the HIA around like its a new Bible and all ye who do not believe must repent.

I dont think there was "no contact t all". Looked at it again and as he goes to support heaslip he has some contact with furlongs hip and goes head first and connects wit heaslip too. If he goes through the RTP then he cannot be named on thursday surely.

awec

I just hope we don't actually have to call on him. It seems very unlikely now, but we could actually be going to Paris with a wing combo of Kearney and McFadden...

Blackclaret

.ak wrote: »

That disappoints me. The guys was out cold over no contact at all really. Feels like everyone is just waving the HIA around like its a new Bible and all ye who do not believe must repent.

Having watched the incident a number of times I can not nail down any heavy impact, although possible to be knocked out and not experience concussion there needs to be some form of significant trauma to end up concussed and just can't sight it.

awec

awec wrote: »

we could actually be going to Paris with a wing combo of Kearney and McFadden...

Both those guys were on the pitch the last time we beat France in Paris just over a season ago.

It's not ideal but I'd rather solid wingers that are good defensively so long as we hang onto our half backs and mid field.

Our pack I think can get the upper hand against the French so I don't think they will get as much joy going wide as they did against Italy.

We contain them and let Sexton pull the strings I think we'll be fine, basically how we beat them last time.

1eg0a3xv7b82of

McFadden into the squad is bizarre and it is why Ireland under this version of Schmidt will never reach their full potential.
He has lost all imagination, he was a coach who oversaw Leinster play winning rugby, while playing rugby the way it should be played.

The brand of rugby Ireland play now is too conservative and his selections are too conservative.
Reaching the semi finals of the 2019 WC is a must and If we do not develop a game plan that will suit our small player pool, running around players, offloading, true player rotation etc. we will just repeat the same mistakes of 2011 and 2015.
Time to get smarten up Schmidt.

1eg0a3xv7b82of

McFadden into the squad is bizarre and it is why Ireland under this version of Schmidt will never reach their full potential.
He has lost all imagination, he was a coach who oversaw Leinster play winning rugby, while playing rugby the way it should be played.

The brand of rugby Ireland play now is too conservative and his selections are too conservative.
Reaching the semi finals of the 2019 WC is a must and If we do not develop a game plan that will suit our small player pool, running around players, offloading, true player rotation etc. we will just repeat the same mistakes of 2011 and 2015.
Time to get smarten up Schmidt.

former total

.ak wrote: »

Because I think McFadden is just there to fill in running defence etc. making up the numbers. If they needed someone to play I think they'd pick someone else.

Obviously we won't know for sure unless two of Earls/Trimble/Zebo/Rob Kearney don't make it, but I don't agree with this logic at all.

McFadden was always in the mix for this squad. He was specifically mentioned by Joe a couple of weeks ago in the same breath as Healy, Ross and Henry and if he hadn't been suspended, he might well have been in the initial announcement.

If they need someone to play, it will be him. People may not like it but that's the reality.

aimee1

Leandro Round Billboard wrote: »

McFadden into the squad is bizarre

He has lost all imagination, he was a coach who oversaw Leinster play winning rugby, while playing rugby the way it should be played.

Reaching the semi finals of the 2019 WC is a must .

1. McFadden was called up because he offers cover. Its no shock.

2. He worked with leinster players all year round day to day. International rugby is a different scenario altogether. If you think we lacked imagination on sunday then you didn't watch the game

3. Why is a semi final a "must"

CMOTDibbler

Leandro Round Billboard wrote: »

McFadden into the squad is bizarre and it is why Ireland under this version of Schmidt will never reach their full potential.
He has lost all imagination, he was a coach who oversaw Leinster play winning rugby, while playing rugby the way it should be played.

The brand of rugby Ireland play now is too conservative and his selections are too conservative.
Reaching the semi finals of the 2019 WC is a must and If we do not develop a game plan that will suit our small player pool, running around players, offloading, true player rotation etc. we will just repeat the same mistakes of 2011 and 2015.
Time to get smarten up Schmidt.

andymx11

If Sexton won't train until Thursday I wouldn't be surprised to see him miss this game :-(

irishbucsfan

Leandro Round Billboard wrote: »

He has lost all imagination, he was a coach who oversaw Leinster play winning rugby, while playing rugby the way it should be played.

I'll take "subjective opinions offered as fact" for 1000 please Alex

aimee1

andymx11 wrote: »

If Sexton won't train until Thursday I wouldn't be surprised to see him miss this game :-(

His wife had a baby last night apparently. And JS said the only real training session this week is going to be thursday so no decisions will be made until then.

1eg0a3xv7b82of

aimee1 wrote: »

1. McFadden was called up because he offers cover. Its no shock.

2. He worked with leinster players all year round day to day. International rugby is a different scenario altogether. If you think we lacked imagination on sunday then you didn't watch the game

3. Why is a semi final a "must"

1. McFadden offers very little at this level.
2. since 2014 championship we have got more conservative.
3. A semi final of the WC is something we have never achieved. The World Cup is the pinnacle because all teams come into into it properly prepared. Failure to reach a semi final is an embarrassment and needs rectifying.

1eg0a3xv7b82of

irishbucsfan wrote: »

There's nothing arbitrary about 2 weeks for a suspected concussion. That's the period over which symptoms can appear and that is why we enforce that timescale amateur level where we don't have the opportunity to go through the RTP protocols, the tests to elevate them from 'potential for a concussion' to 'suspicion of a concussion'.

That 538 article is about the former of those two btw, which is where professional outfits have been getting things dangerously wrong for such a long time (establishing evidence or in some casing just acknowledging it). If a player has had a concussive impact and has been seen losing balance as a result then you have your results without the need for imPACT or any other similar testing regime like the RTP used in rugby.

Touche

RichieRich89

Deleted User wrote: »

I sort of agree with your logic. However am I correct in saying that McFadden is the only other winger currently fit who has ever played under Schmidt?

Gilroy played in the Autumn international against Georgia in 2014 if I remember correctly

Deleted User wrote: »

Reid hasn't played for Ireland under Joe.

He got a cap on the Summer tour to Argentina in 2014, no?

aimee1

Leandro Round Billboard wrote: »

1. McFadden offers very little at this level.
2. since 2014 championship we have got more conservative.
3. A semi final of the WC is something we have never achieved. The World Cup is the pinnacle because all teams come into into it properly prepared. Failure to reach a semi final is an embarrassment and needs rectifying.

We have 6 day turnaround between games and several players have minor knocks. The coach is the best positioned person to make this call because he knows what he needs for this week. Best guess is we may need a bench cover option and mcfadden covers several positions.


We kicked far less against wales and passed more, we had 7 line breaks to none by wales. Expecting ireland to be leinster 2012 is totally unrealistic.

IMO there is too much significance put on the rwc to sacrifice 6n.

irishbucsfan

aimee1 wrote: »

We have 6 day turnaround between games and several players have minor knocks. The coach is the best positioned person to make this call because he knows what he needs for this week. Best guess is we may need a bench cover option and mcfadden covers several positions.


We kicked far less against wales and passed more, we had 7 line breaks to none by wales. Expecting ireland to be leinster 2012 is totally unrealistic.

IMO there is too much significance put on the rwc to sacrifice 6n.

To be fair I think the problem is not that McFadden is being called up. The problem people have is that our systems are such that McFadden is the best option. IE, if we were more adventurous then he wouldn't be the best option.

But I agree with you that the approach we're taking is the correct one. It suits our strengths and hides our weaknesses and gives us the best chance of winning a championship. And I actually enjoy it!

aimee1

irishbucsfan wrote: »

To be fair I think the problem is not that McFadden is being called up. The problem people have is that our systems are such that McFadden is the best option. IE, if we were more adventurous then he wouldn't be the best option.

But I agree with you that the approach we're taking is the correct one. It suits our strengths and hides our weaknesses and gives us the best chance of winning a championship. And I actually enjoy it!

Every time a player gets called up it is invariably seen by many as wrong/conservative. The bigger picture is JS has stated his objective is winning the next game. He isnt thinking about game 3 of this 6n or the rwc in 2019. His sole focus is this Saturday and what he needs for this game. Its plainly obvious to me why he has called up mcfadden because we know what he likes his bench options to be

If his remit was to win the qf in 2019 he would have a contract all the way until then.

Neil3030

How is Vakatawa under the high ball, can we target him on Saturday? Especially given Kearney's likely return.

awec

Neil3030 wrote: »

How is Vakatawa under the high ball, can we target him on Saturday? Especially given Kearney's likely return.

Doubt anyone really knows. Italy didn't really test him.

aimee1

Neil3030 wrote: »

How is Vakatawa under the high ball, can we target him on Saturday? Especially given Kearney's likely return.

He was caught out of position 2-3 times by italy with sarto unlucky with one contestable just spilling from his hands in the 22

Billysays no

former total wrote: »

Obviously we won't know for sure unless two of Earls/Trimble/Zebo/Rob Kearney don't make it, but I don't agree with this logic at all.

McFadden was always in the mix for this squad. He was specifically mentioned by Joe a couple of weeks ago in the same breath as Healy, Ross and Henry and if he hadn't been suspended, he might well have been in the initial announcement.

If they need someone to play, it will be him. People may not like it but that's the reality.

As a person, I could be considered a part of the people, and the suggestion of McFadden reeks of the suggestion of zebo, reeks of the suggestion of Healy. All are so underperforming how could anybody suggest them for an international team. Its so far beyond far I can't even guess the universe