Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread V

swiwi_

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Joe is to be praised for his top notch conservative coaching - a lot of coaches would have done better if they were more like him in this regard - and why not too many boards.ie posters have been appointed to the top coaching jobs in intertational rugby.

Nail on head. Couldn't have put it better myself.

"So (insert boards poster here), we were really impressed with your CV, and we think you would make a great international coach. We were not worried that you listed your only rugby experience as sitting on the couch watching rugby in the weekends and keyboard warrior during the week. However, as we were printing out the contract for you to sign, our new office assistant did a quick google search and stumbled across your posting history on the rugby forum boards.ie. We were rather taken aback by the radical nature of your posts, and in light of that we regret to inform you that we are withdrawing our offer. Better luck next time."

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

swiwi_ wrote: »

Nail on head. Couldn't have put it better myself.

"So (insert boards poster here), we were really impressed with your CV, and we think you would make a great international coach. We were not worried that you listed your only rugby experience as sitting on the couch watching rugby in the weekends and keyboard warrior during the week. However, as we were printing out the contract for you to sign, our new office assistant did a quick google search and stumbled across your posting history on the rugby forum boards.ie. We were rather taken aback by the radical nature of your posts, and in light of that we regret to inform you that we are withdrawing our offer. Better luck next time."

That why I only put my boards history on applications for less conservative teams.

Paul Smeenus

swiwi_ wrote: »

Nail on head. Couldn't have put it better myself.

"So (insert boards poster here), we were really impressed with your CV, and we think you would make a great international coach. We were not worried that you listed your only rugby experience as sitting on the couch watching rugby in the weekends and keyboard warrior during the week. However, as we were printing out the contract for you to sign, our new office assistant did a quick google search and stumbled across your posting history on the rugby forum boards.ie. We were rather taken aback by the radical nature of your posts, and in light of that we regret to inform you that we are withdrawing our offer. Better luck next time."

Okay - so that's rugby coaches' decisions off the list of things we are allowed to discuss. I suppose, since none of us is a professional level player, their performances and mistakes are off the list too. And refs, as none of us has ever reffed a professional game.

So we're left with a lovely discussion about our favourite rugby tops (without any implied criticisms, as we are not professional rugby top designers).

Super. Knock yourself out.

awec

I actually just went to look at Jackson's record for Ireland in 2015. He got three caps and all were in experimental back lines.

Didn't feature at all in the 6N.

WC and warmups:

1. Came off the bench away to Wales. He played outside Reddan. His centres were Cave and Earls and then Madigan and Cave.
2. Came off bench home to Wales. Reddan again. It was either Henshaw Earls in the centre or Henshaw Fitz, I can't remember which.
3. Romania. Reddan again. Madigan and Cave in the midfield.

Never got to play outside Murray, never got to play in what could be described as a strong back line.

Of course, these are still caps and he should be putting his best foot forward, but it puts a bit of perspective on things. His involvement recently has mostly been in experimental sides.

awec

I actually just went to look at Jackson's record for Ireland in 2015. He got three caps and all were in experimental back lines.

Didn't feature at all in the 6N.

WC and warmups:

1. Came off the bench away to Wales. He played outside Reddan. His centres were Cave and Earls and then Madigan and Cave.
2. Came off bench home to Wales. Reddan again. It was either Henshaw Earls in the centre or Henshaw Fitz, I can't remember which.
3. Romania. Reddan again. Madigan and Cave in the midfield.

Never got to play outside Murray, never got to play in what could be described as a strong back line.

Of course, these are still caps and he should be putting his best foot forward, but it puts a bit of perspective on things. His involvement recently has mostly been in experimental sides.

swiwi_

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Okay - so that's rugby coaches' decisions off the list of things we are allowed to discuss. I suppose, since none of us is a professional level player, their performances and mistakes are off the list too. And refs, as none of us has ever reffed a professional game.

So we're left with a lovely discussion about our favourite rugby tops (without any implied criticisms, as we are not professional rugby top designers).

Super. Knock yourself out.

Jeepers dude. Did you think I was being serious??

Paul Smeenus

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Okay - so that's rugby coaches' decisions off the list of things we are allowed to discuss. I suppose, since none of us is a professional level player, their performances and mistakes are off the list too. And refs, as none of us has ever reffed a professional game.

So we're left with a lovely discussion about our favourite rugby tops (without any implied criticisms, as we are not professional rugby top designers).

Super. Knock yourself out.

Don't talk to me unless your an artisan of Rugby tops. Amateurs.

errlloyd

Ah swiwi and Lucretia, posters should not be posting here on the back of an unbelievable CV that makes them unquestionably correct and given the benefit of the doubt. That defeats the purpose of a message board.

Posters should be given the respect their written argument deserves. You don't have to be a former head coach with experience coaching the lions to comment on the values of players. As long as your comment includes the depth of analysis the argument you are making requires then other posters should refrain from questioning your experience standing to make arguments.

Very few posters on here (probably none) have any professional rugby experience, but it doesn't matter. If you can sit there, and point out in terms I understand that based on your detailed observation, and a reasonably wide basis of research that one player is better than another I will probably listen - if I only wanted to listen to the coach I wouldn't be here.

The only problem I have is that many posters suffer from a severe case of.

A: Confirmation bias. I am going to watch my player looking for good things he does, and when I see them it will confirm he is good. I am going to watch another player looking for mistakes, and when I see them, it will confirm he is bad.

B: Selection bias. Ian Madigan plays better when I see him than Paddy Jackson. This bias needs to be countered by looking at the wider context. On the one hand Jackson has a genuinely better scrum half at all times (I don't mean that game management horse ****, I just mean accuracy, and how far he can get the ball away from the breakdown), on the other hand Mads usually plays Leinster's easier games.

C: Unbalanced sampling. I will probably get quoted on this, I don't watch enough Munster games to comment on Munster players. I don't feel that comfortable weighing on arguments about Stander, Zebo or Earls. I tend to watch the other three provinces more, I hardly miss a Leinster game, Ulster are always at a handy time in English and Connacht are the kind of story of the year so far from me. I often wish other posters would be more aware of the gaps in their sampling.

irishbucsfan

errlloyd wrote: »

Ah swiwi and Lucretia, posters should not be posting here on the back of an unbelievable CV that makes them unquestionably correct and given the benefit of the doubt. That defeats the purpose of a message board.

Posters should be given the respect their written argument deserves. You don't have to be a former head coach with experience coaching the lions to comment on the values of players. As long as your comment includes the depth of analysis the argument you are making requires then other posters should refrain from questioning your experience standing to make arguments.

Very few posters on here (probably none) have any professional rugby experience, but it doesn't matter. If you can sit there, and point out in terms I understand that based on your detailed observation, and a reasonably wide basis of research that one player is better than another I will probably listen - if I only wanted to listen to the coach I wouldn't be here.

The only problem I have is that many posters suffer from a severe case of.

A: Confirmation bias. I am going to watch my player looking for good things he does, and when I see them it will confirm he is good. I am going to watch another player looking for mistakes, and when I see them, it will confirm he is bad.

B: Selection bias. Ian Madigan plays better when I see him than Paddy Jackson. This bias needs to be countered by looking at the wider context. On the one hand Jackson has a genuinely better scrum half at all times (I don't mean that game management horse ****, I just mean accuracy, and how far he can get the ball away from the breakdown), on the other hand Mads usually plays Leinster's easier games.

C: Unbalanced sampling. I will probably get quoted on this, I don't watch enough Munster games to comment on Munster players. I don't feel that comfortable weighing on arguments about Stander, Zebo or Earls. I tend to watch the other three provinces more, I hardly miss a Leinster game, Ulster are always at a handy time in English and Connacht are the kind of story of the year so far from me. I often wish other posters would be more aware of the gaps in their sampling.

...

swiwi_ wrote: »

Jeepers dude. Did you think I was being serious??

errlloyd

I dunno why I thought you were being serious.

Paul Smeenus

Deleted User wrote: »

Don't talk to me unless your an artisan of Rugby tops. Amateurs.

http://www.classicrugbyshirts.com/2011-2012-ulster-cartoon-rugby-union-shirt-adults-medium-ireland-top-6014-p.asp

Scythica

http://www.the42.ie/kearney-on-soft-france-defence-2595250-Feb2016/

Not read it but surely if that was the intention then why would he announce it to the media? (Sods law but not reading it's actually fluff.

Anyway, I really think we could break Danty and Fickou apart, they seemed quite bad in defence last week, shame as Danty is in my fantasy team!

Scythica

http://www.the42.ie/kearney-on-soft-france-defence-2595250-Feb2016/

Not read it but surely if that was the intention then why would he announce it to the media? (Sods law but not reading it's actually fluff.

Anyway, I really think we could break Danty and Fickou apart, they seemed quite bad in defence last week, shame as Danty is in my fantasy team!

MJohnston

Scythica wrote: »

http://www.the42.ie/kearney-on-soft-france-defence-2595250-Feb2016/

Not read it but surely if that was the intention then why would he announce it to the media? (Sods law but not reading it's actually fluff.

Anyway, I really think we could break Danty and Fickou apart, they seemed quite bad in defence last week, shame as Danty is in my fantasy team!

Headology.

Paul Smeenus

swiwi_ wrote: »

Jeepers dude. Did you think I was being serious??

Sorry man, I did. You never know with interweb mentallists, in whose number I am happy to concede you may not be.

swiwi_

Oh Irish sense of humour wherefore art thou?

(Or maybe I'm just not funny , or too subtle )

former total

awec wrote: »

I actually just went to look at Jackson's record for Ireland in 2015. He got three caps and all were in experimental back lines.

Didn't feature at all in the 6N.

WC and warmups:

1. Came off the bench away to Wales. He played outside Reddan. His centres were Cave and Earls and then Madigan and Cave.
2. Came off bench home to Wales. Reddan again. It was either Henshaw Earls in the centre or Henshaw Fitz, I can't remember which.
3. Romania. Reddan again. Madigan and Cave in the midfield.

Never got to play outside Murray, never got to play in what could be described as a strong back line.

Of course, these are still caps and he should be putting his best foot forward, but it puts a bit of perspective on things. His involvement recently has mostly been in experimental sides.

It doesn't alter your point but he started the away game to Wales and played the full 80. And that was it really, he only got 40 minutes in total over the next 8 games. (He was injured for the 2015 6N I think).

And this is what I've been trying to say for weeks. Madigan is not on the bench because he's more versatile, he's there because Joe thinks he's the better out-half. I've no interest in debating the rights and wrongs of that because I don't have a strong preference either way, but that's how Joe sees it.

The idea that "Madigan will bench, but Jackson would start", well, it might be the case but it's really difficult to see any evidence that it is. You'd have to look at Jackson's minutes and think that he never got close to Madigan during the RWC.

Even when things were going tits up in the ditch against Argentina, Jackson stayed rooted to the bench.

Bazzo

Scythica wrote: »

http://www.the42.ie/kearney-on-soft-france-defence-2595250-Feb2016/

Not read it but surely if that was the intention then why would he announce it to the media? (Sods law but not reading it's actually fluff.

Anyway, I really think we could break Danty and Fickou apart, they seemed quite bad in defence last week, shame as Danty is in my fantasy team!

It's a nothing statement really. Bit of a dig at the French in the media but all in all the statement is about as much a revelation as saying you intend to continue breathing for the forseeable future. What team doesn't go in to a game targetting the opposition's defence?

b.gud

Marmion, Bealham and Dillane all on the bench for Connacht game tomorrow

Paul Smeenus

former total wrote: »

And this is what I've been trying to say for weeks. Madigan is not on the bench because he's more versatile, he's there because Joe thinks he's the better out-half. I've no interest in debating the rights and wrongs of that because I don't have a strong preference either way, but that's how Joe sees it.

The idea that "Madigan will bench, but Jackson would start", well, it might be the case but it's really difficult to see any evidence that it is.

I suppose it's because it's exactly what Joe Schmidt explicitly said in previous Six Nations:

""In England we got a couple of niggles, and we didn't have as broad a coverage on the bench as we would have liked.

"If Johnny had been injured, Paddy would have started.

"But it's Ian's ability to cover 10, centre and 15."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/ireland/10695006/Six-Nations-2014-Joe-Schmidt-names-Ian-Madigan-on-bench-for-Ireland-ahead-of-crunch-France-clash-in-Paris.html

fitz

swiwi_ wrote: »

Oh Irish sense of humour wherefore art thou?

What are you trying to imply, swiwi?
You racist.

Paul Smeenus

fitz wrote: »

What are you trying to imply, swiwi?
You racist.

Bloody racialists.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

I think we need some sort of [Joke][/joke] differentiation of text to avoid all future confusion.

Maybe make the text RED but never BLUE

aimee1

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Its correct to keep trotting out Joe's conservatism - its one part of what makes him a great coach. His attention to detail and analysis bring him to these conservative deciaions rather than select-and-hope gambles that some of the spoofer coaches pull. Joe is to be praised for his top notch conservative coaching - a lot of coaches would have done better if they were more like him in this regard - and why not too many boards.ie posters have been appointed to the top coaching jobs in intertational rugby.

But i dont view it as conservatism. Its just the reality of his job. In his career as a head coach he has proven himself to adapt to the needs of his teams based on who he has available. And ireland were far from conservative against wales. Just lacked some accuracy at times.

If marmion is on the bench for connacht tmrw then thats a bit disappointing.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

I suppose it's because it's exactly what Joe Schmidt explicitly said in previous Six Nations:

""In England we got a couple of niggles, and we didn't have as broad a coverage on the bench as we would have liked.

"If Johnny had been injured, Paddy would have started.

"But it's Ian's ability to cover 10, centre and 15."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/ireland/10695006/Six-Nations-2014-Joe-Schmidt-names-Ian-Madigan-on-bench-for-Ireland-ahead-of-crunch-France-clash-in-Paris.html

I knew there was a specific reason given for dropping Jackson back then. The fact he was named in the tour squad that summer and Madigan wasn't would back up what Schmidt said before that France game.

Madigan obviously took his opportunity well when Jackson got injured and missed that tour. Last 6 Nations Jackson was out injured but at this stage it's hard to say it's solely about versatility with Madigan when it comes to Ireland. It doesn't hurt his case, I'm sure but it can't be the only thing that keeps him ahead of Jackson and if it is both players must be rated at a similar level by the coaches. Obviously boards isn't in agreement there.

Not that I'd want to contemplate a Sextonless Ireland but if his legs were to fall off tomorrow it would be interesting to see which player is actually rated above the other. Not interesting enough to want it to happen though!

Actually, probably the only way we'll ever know if one of Madigan or Jackson is rated higher than the other within the Irish set up is for Sexton to be completely out of the picture and for Madigan and Jackson to be starting 10's at an Irish province. If Jackson gets the 22 shirt next season it won't matter how he's playing there will be people who will chalk it up solely to Madigan being in France.

former total

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

I suppose it's because it's exactly what Joe Schmidt explicitly said in previous Six Nations:

""In England we got a couple of niggles, and we didn't have as broad a coverage on the bench as we would have liked.

"If Johnny had been injured, Paddy would have started.

"But it's Ian's ability to cover 10, centre and 15."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/ireland/10695006/Six-Nations-2014-Joe-Schmidt-names-Ian-Madigan-on-bench-for-Ireland-ahead-of-crunch-France-clash-in-Paris.html

Yeah, that's all fair enough, but it's also two years ago. What happened four months ago seems more relevant.

I'm going to re-emphasise that I'm not bigging up Madigan, people will assume I am because I'm a Leinster fan, but it looks for all the world like the pecking order is pretty clear.

rsh118

Would it be completely ridiculous to say that there is a serious whiff of Paddy Wallace about Mads?

Like, a bloody decent player on his day, but never one you are desperate to see starting ahead of his rivals? I think we all want to see him do well in green, but I certainly wouldn't want him starting ahead of Sexton, Henshaw or RK!

wp_rathead

former total wrote: »

Yeah, that's all fair enough, but it's also two years ago. What happened four months ago seems more relevant.

I'm going to re-emphasise that I'm not bigging up Madigan, people will assume I am because I'm a Leinster fan, but it looks for all the world like the pecking order is pretty clear.

Dunno about that, I mean last year, Ian Keatley got the nod to start over Ian Madigan against Italy in the 6 Nations

Buer

rsh118 wrote: »

Would it be completely ridiculous to say that there is a serious whiff of Paddy Wallace about Mads?

Like, a bloody decent player on his day, but never one you are desperate to see starting ahead of his rivals? I think we all want to see him do well in green, but I certainly wouldn't want him starting ahead of Sexton, Henshaw or RK!

There are definitely parallels there. Both play(ed) 10, 12 and 15. Both known for their passing and could be flakey as outhalves.

In their respective best positions though, I'd put Wallace well ahead of Madigan. I had no qualms about Wallace starting against NZ or in big 6N games at inside centre and he was very close to overtaking D'Arcy at one point for the jersey.

Unfortunately, his legacy was badly dented by the brutal way in which he was utilised towards the end of his career, being shoehorned into the 23 jersey when not suitable at all as well as the nightmarish call up from a Portuguese beach ahead of the 60-0 drubbing in 2012.

I'd have significant reservations about Madigan doing the same in any of his positions, though. He just doesn't inspire confidence at that level and really doesn't facilitate those around him which Wallace could do excellently.

thomond2006

b.gud wrote: »

Marmion, Bealham and Dillane all on the bench for Connacht game tomorrow

Is Marmion still in line to play on Saturday I wonder? He didn't play at all against Wales so maybe he is. If so, no harm to give him 10-20 minutes for Connacht.

Buer

thomond2006 wrote: »

Is Marmion still in line to play on Saturday I wonder? He didn't play at all against Wales so maybe he is. If so, no harm to give him 10-20 minutes for Connacht.

I'd be shocked if he was included after being involved with Connacht.

rsh118

Buer wrote: »

There are definitely parallels there. Both play(ed) 10, 12 and 15. Both known for their passing and could be flakey as outhalves.

In their respective best positions though, I'd put Wallace well ahead of Madigan. I had no qualms about Wallace starting against NZ or in big 6N games at inside centre and he was very close to overtaking D'Arcy at one point for the jersey.

Unfortunately, his legacy was badly dented by the brutal way in which he was utilised towards the end of his career, being shoehorned into the 23 jersey when not suitable at all as well as the nightmarish call up from a Portuguese beach ahead of the 60-0 drubbing in 2012.

I'd have significant reservations about Madigan doing the same in any of his positions, though. He just doesn't inspire confidence at that level and really doesn't facilitate those around him which is Wallace could do excellently.

I definitely think Wallace is a little unlucky in how he's remembered, especially 2009 where he was solid at 12 throughout but will eternally be remembered with backside to camera giving Wales that finally penalty.

I still shudder at the Portuguese holiday debacle. Paddy was pushed towards 10 too early before settling to become a great 12 for Ulster. Hopefully Madigan gets the same chance and his coach in France nails a number to his back!

thomond2006

Buer wrote: »

I'd be shocked if he was included after being involved with Connacht.

I'm hopeful but I agree with you.

Why go back to Eoin Reddan now?

rsh118

thomond2006 wrote: »

I'm hopeful but I agree with you.

Why go back to Eoin Reddan now?

I suppose because the result>long term plans for the Six Nations. Stability is important too, speaking from a perspective where I've spent the last couple of years seeing and hearing all things All Blacks, they tend to go with stability, sticking by the same guy and letting people gain their experience through 20 minutes here and there. JS is right not to re-invent the wheel with every form player who comes along. Evolution over revolution for international rugby!

former total

wp_rathead wrote: »

Dunno about that, I mean last year, Ian Keatley got the nod to start over Ian Madigan against Italy in the 6 Nations

... and hasn't been seen since.

Again, not having a go at Keatley or Jackson and not bigging up Madigan, but the current (or most recent) pecking order is pretty clear.

Podge_irl

rsh118 wrote: »

I suppose because the result>long term plans for the Six Nations. Stability is important too, speaking from a perspective where I've spent the last couple of years seeing and hearing all things All Blacks, they tend to go with stability, sticking by the same guy and letting people gain their experience through 20 minutes here and there. JS is right not to re-invent the wheel with every form player who comes along. Evolution over revolution for international rugby!

Yeah but that doesn't explain why you would go for Marmion on the bench against Wales and then move to Reddan for France.

irishbucsfan

former total wrote: »

... and hasn't been seen since.

Again, not having a go at Keatley or Jackson and not bigging up Madigan, but the current (or most recent) pecking order is pretty clear.

I really don't think it is. I don't really see why the decision for the one Argentina game makes the pecking order clear. Similarly the decision for that Italy game didn't make the pecking order clear for the rest of the 6 Nations.

Don't really see what would have changed since Joe made those previous comments either, the players are roughly in the same place relatively and are both fit.

NiallBoo

I'm a fan of Madigan. I like what he does and I think he gets a lot more stick than he deserves.

I have to say though, while he was better than Jackson 2/3 years ago, Jackson has grown and developed much more as a player and IMO is comfortably Ireland's second best OH.

A lot of this it's down to getting more time at OH (the reasons for that don't need rehashing, but the results are what they are). That the Ulster backline is IMO the best functioning one in the country over the last few years(if perhaps not the most "talented") helps too.

It's worth keeping in mind that when Sexton was Jackson's age he hadn't been capped yet or even become a regular starter for Leinster - so there's a heck of a lot of improving left in Jackson and I think he'll be pushing Sexton for the 10 jersey within a few years.

Shefwedfan

thomond2006 wrote: »

I'm hopeful but I agree with you.

Why go back to Eoin Reddan now?

I would guess it is for experience why they would go back to Redden. Playing in France and after 5 mins Murray goes down and you have to throw on Marmion would be a huge risk which Joe would never take. Don't see any manager doing it unless they are forced to, Redden would be able to handle the pressure if required.

Let Marmion back to club to get some time playing and then have him ready for the other games like Scotland/Italy at home when he will get some decent experience

I would guess the plan on Sunday was to give him 20 mins on pitch, but with game so tight and the loss of Sexton it would have been shooting yourself in foot by sticking on Marmion and Madigan to see out a match like that......

I am all for giving young player experience but there still is a 6 nations to win here. Marmion will get his chance later on in competition and during the summer. For now the experience of Redden will be required for Paris.....

wp_rathead

I'd imagine we'll see Marmion back on the bench for Italy and Scotland atleast

Shame he is not involved though, he has a good record playing in France

rsh118

Podge_irl wrote: »

Yeah but that doesn't explain why you would go for Marmion on the bench against Wales and then move to Reddan for France.

Yeah, you aren't wrong there. I'd have to take a guess and say that JS feels a bit more confident in Reddan to have the experience to come on in France.

Perhaps too he is feeling a bit more hope for this championship than he was last week and is less willing to take risks? Unsure.

b.gud

thomond2006 wrote: »

Is Marmion still in line to play on Saturday I wonder? He didn't play at all against Wales so maybe he is. If so, no harm to give him 10-20 minutes for Connacht.

Highly doubt it, I'm sure there are no rules against it, but given what we've been hearing about this week it seems that nearly all the emphasis this week is going to be on tomorrows training session I doubt he'll feature this week which is a shame

NiallBoo

rsh118 wrote: »

Yeah, you aren't wrong there. I'd have to take a guess and say that JS feels a bit more confident in Reddan to have the experience to come on in France.

Perhaps too he is feeling a bit more hope for this championship than he was last week and is less willing to take risks? Unsure.

My guess is that this week he thinks he's more likely to need someone who could come off the bench and help close out the game while last week he though he was more likely to need someone to help chase scores.

rsh118

NiallBoo wrote: »

It's worth keeping in mind that when Sexton was Jackson's age he hadn't been capped yet or even become a regular starter for Leinster - so there's a heck of a lot of improving left in Jackson and I think he'll be pushing Sexton for the 10 jersey within a few years.

This is what always goes through my head. Jackson seems to keep moving and improving, and always seems to eek a lot out of the Ilster backline, choosing good options etc. We're lucky to have such an experienced young OH waiting in the wings imo.

I remember distinctly thinking Sexton was just okay initially. Shows how likely I am to get a scouting job in rugby!

former total

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I really don't think it is. I don't really see why the decision for the one Argentina game makes the pecking order clear. Similarly the decision for that Italy game didn't make the pecking order clear for the rest of the 6 Nations.

Don't really see what would have changed since Joe made those previous comments either, the players are roughly in the same place relatively and are both fit.

Because it wasn't the decision for just one match. See awec's earlier post; Jackson got practically no game time in the warm ups and earlier RWC matches. If Joe was really looking at him as an option, wouldn't he have given him more game time? I think so.

When Joe made those comments in 2014, the logic was that our starting centres were carrying knocks and so there was a good chance Madigan might be called upon to play centre off the bench.
If the logic of those comments still holds, the full fitness of Payne and Henshaw this weekend should mean Jackson will bench.

rsh118

NiallBoo wrote: »

My guess is that this week he thinks he's more likely to need someone who could come off the bench and help close out the game while last week he though he was more likely to need someone to help chase scores.

That sounds a lot more tactically astute than my own thinking. For a young head like Marmion too I'd say psychologically a lot easier to be told to go do your thing and see if you can salvage it rather than being told that Weight of Ireland lays on your shoulders as you close out a one score game against France!

errlloyd

Murray spent some time on the ground against Wales, he may have taken a knock.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I really don't think it is. I don't really see why the decision for the one Argentina game makes the pecking order clear. Similarly the decision for that Italy game didn't make the pecking order clear for the rest of the 6 Nations.

Don't really see what would have changed since Joe made those previous comments either, the players are roughly in the same place relatively and are both fit.

The way I see the World Cup decision, and it's just my opinion, Madigan was never supposed to play that big a role against France and he certainly wasn't supposed to start the QF.
Sexton got injured very early and Madigan really stepped up. You can argue France were pretty poor that day and we beat them comfortably in the end but when Madigan came on it was still pretty close. You could also argue the tempo of the game had already been set, something I've seen people say Madigan struggles with. Point being, he really stepped up in that match and looking at your two options for the QF, Jackson who had played very little international rugby over the previous year, or Madigan who was coming off maybe the best game of his career, added to the already large number of forced changes, Madigan was the obvious choice. At the time I probably argued for Jackson but the reasoning for picking Madigan is sound.

All that said, it's one very specific incident and looking at times Sexton was unavailable previously Madigan didn't get the nod, and Jackson was back up the year before so I don't think there really is any clear picture of what the pecking order is. Like I said before we'll probably not have a clear picture until Sexton is gone completely or injured long term. Even then it won't be definitive unless Madigan is back playing in Ireland at the time.

errlloyd

errlloyd wrote: »

Murray spent some time on the ground against Wales, he may have taken a knock.

There can't be any concerns about Murray. If that were the case Marmion wouldn't be going anywhere.

aimee1

Buer wrote: »

I'd be shocked if he was included after being involved with Connacht.

the irish team travels to paris tomorrow afternoon. So I think its clear Marmion wont be involved.