Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread V

Scythica

errlloyd wrote: »

I never thought I'd say this.

If Ireland want to change our rugby culture, I think Payne should be sent back to fullback and someone like olding, or Ringrose, or Fitz be genuinely lined up at 13.

I think henshaw can be inside or outside, but I think he's learned plenty playing with bundee aki and should stay at connacht. He had deft offloading, good lines and a strong step at this world cup. 6 months ago he could tackle, now he's a package.

The great ten search begins. Sexton will be too old in four years. We need someone else. God knows where we will find one, but I do not accept that the next world cup is too soon for Marsh and Byrne. Leinster have to continue giving them a shot. JJ Hanrahan must be carefully observed.

If McCloskey could genuinely be starting for Ireland, get that boy a kicking coach and see how good he could be, then place kicking isn't the be all and end all of our search for 10. Or have Murray do it. Put Olding or (def) Jackson in.

Murray / Hart
Jackson
Big Stu
Henshaw (swap these 2 as appropriate)
Earls / Gilroy / Fitz Wings
Payne

22. Madigan
23. Olding (if he gets to the levels thought possible before injury)

That's put a smile on my face just writing that line up, as unlikely as it may be... Dem hands tho!

Utah_Saint

Scythica wrote: »

If McCloskey could genuinely be starting for Ireland, get that boy a kicking coach and see how good he could be, then place kicking isn't the be all and end all of our search for 10. Or have Murray do it. Put Olding or (def) Jackson in.

Murray / Hart
Jackson
Big Stu
Henshaw (swap these 2 as appropriate)
Earls / Gilroy / Fitz Wings
Payne

22. Madigan
23. Olding (if he gets to the levels thought possible before injury)

That's put a smile on my face just writing that line up, as unlikely as it may be... Dem hands tho!

I like the idea of Payne going to FB again. His best position but unlikely to happen. I def think Big Mac will be in the 6Nations squad. If Olding can return before Christmas and get a run of games he could be welcome addition to the squad

mfceiling

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Ulster saying Payne could be out for up to 2 months maybe more.

Looks like McCloskey is going to get lots of time to stake a claim for the green 13 shirt

Still no update on Bowe.

Big stu to 12...Cave back to 13.

*memo to Payne when he returns...that's your shirt there with 15 on the back of it*

vienne86

Scythica wrote: »

If McCloskey could genuinely be starting for Ireland, get that boy a kicking coach and see how good he could be, then place kicking isn't the be all and end all of our search for 10. Or have Murray do it. Put Olding or (def) Jackson in.

Murray / Hart
Jackson
Big Stu
Henshaw (swap these 2 as appropriate)
Earls / Gilroy / Fitz Wings
Payne

22. Madigan
23. Olding (if he gets to the levels thought possible before injury)

That's put a smile on my face just writing that line up, as unlikely as it may be... Dem hands tho!

What's the story with Hart - has he declared for Ireland or France?

Scythica

vienne86 wrote: »

What's the story with Hart - has he declared for Ireland or France?

I've no idea, if he's declared for France somebody in the IRFU needs a slap. I've admittedly not seen much of him but heard good things. Getting him over here to a province to maybe glean some stuff before Pienaar / Boss / Reddan disappear would of been good I'd of thought.

I'd like to see him come to Ulster but I'd think maybe Connacht would have a more pressing need? Given Leinster should develop McGrath and Murray and Pienaar will still have the starting jersies.

.ak

Leinster approached him but he turned it down. I've heard he's not playing as well as he did before but that could be injury related.

As a fan group we tend to be very reactionary; this guy just got motm over in France, give him a central contract! Or this guy is playing in the World Cup, why isn't he playing for a province?

There's a reason these guys didn't make it through the system here. I'm sure a few quality players slip through the net, but if they're really good enough that doesn't happen. We're on the irish thread here so I presume people are alluding to Hart getting caps - well he'd want to be pretty special for that to happen and the fact he only played AIL here would suggest he's not.

molloyjh

Scythica wrote: »

I've no idea, if he's declared for France somebody in the IRFU needs a slap. I've admittedly not seen much of him but heard good things. Getting him over here to a province to maybe glean some stuff before Pienaar / Boss / Reddan disappear would of been good I'd of thought.

I'd like to see him come to Ulster but I'd think maybe Connacht would have a more pressing need? Given Leinster should develop McGrath and Murray and Pienaar will still have the starting jersies.

If anyone needs a new scrum half it is Ulster at this stage. Connacht have Marmion and Cooney with Blade coming through as well. Munster have Murray and O'Leary with Sheridan and Williams there too. Leinster have Reddan and McGrath with McCarthy coming through (oh, and Boss of course).

molloyjh

It also needs to be said that far too much is being made of the style of play or the hemisphere differences etc. Had Wales and Ireland not been as badly hit with injuries then it is highly likely that the SFs would have a 50/50 split between the hemispheres. Add to that the fact that Scotland were apparently hard done by and things really aren't as bad as they appear on the surface. I don't think we need a complete overhaul on how we play the game. We just need to continue going as we are and develop the depth that is required to better deal with the injuries issues we had.

aimee1

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/international/gordon-d-arcy-coaching-players-younger-must-become-priority-1.2399288

Synode

aimee1 wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/international/gordon-d-arcy-coaching-players-younger-must-become-priority-1.2399288

Really enjoying his articles

hogandrew

.ak wrote: »

Leinster approached him but he turned it down. I've heard he's not playing as well as he did before but that could be injury related.

As a fan group we tend to be very reactionary; this guy just got motm over in France, give him a central contract! Or this guy is playing in the World Cup, why isn't he playing for a province?

There's a reason these guys didn't make it through the system here. I'm sure a few quality players slip through the net, but if they're really good enough that doesn't happen. We're on the irish thread here so I presume people are alluding to Hart getting caps - well he'd want to be pretty special for that to happen and the fact he only played AIL here would suggest he's not.

From the few times I've seen him play I didn't think that he was great. He can kick which might benefit some teams and helped his reports back here but I certainly wouldn't have him in a squad ahead of marmion. He's nowhere near the level of reddan and certainly not Murray. Given that he's not centrally contracted I'd have him behind McGrath, boss, o Leary and Marshall.

He's obviously reasonably young but I think there are much better options here currently and coming through

Clearlier

molloyjh wrote: »

It also needs to be said that far too much is being made of the style of play or the hemisphere differences etc. Had Wales and Ireland not been as badly hit with injuries then it is highly likely that the SFs would have a 50/50 split between the hemispheres. Add to that the fact that Scotland were apparently hard done by and things really aren't as bad as they appear on the surface. I don't think we need a complete overhaul on how we play the game. We just need to continue going as we are and develop the depth that is required to better deal with the injuries issues we had.

As someone who grew up watching rugby starting from the mid-80's. I'd say that the gap between the hemispheres has never been smaller. It used to be one drubbing after another - now over the past 5 years Ireland have beaten South Africa and Australia, Wales almost always lose by just a few points, England have beaten New Zealand and Australia, even Scotland have beaten South Africa and Australia. It's just lazy journalism to suggest that because the four semi-finalists come from the SH that a big gap has opened up again.

Bridge93

The 2006 football World Cup had Italy, France, Germany and Portugal in the semi finals. 3 Europeans in the 2010 semis. South American football certainly wasn't massively behind, it just happens some times.

Scythica

I should probably point out I wasn't suggesting we need to play more like the SH teams, although bringing a bit more *pazazz* to our attacking game would be nice to watch.

Just that I'd like to see those guys on a field together and see what happens!

Must admit, had a complete mind blank about Marmion, would rather see him in the fold than Hart.

Maybe one day Jackson will decide with his passing he'll become a SH instead :P

m@cc@

Bridge93 wrote: »

The 2006 football World Cup had Italy, France, Germany and Portugal in the semi finals. 3 Europeans in the 2010 semis. South American football certainly wasn't massively behind, it just happens some times.

That doesn't really ring true though, does it? Since both competitions have a higher number of European teams to start with.

Bridge93

m@cc@ wrote: »

That doesn't really ring true though, does it? Since both competitions have a higher number of European teams to start with.

There's also far more competition to knock them out.
If you want be be mathematical there are 13 European World Cup spots which equals just over 40% of the 32 places.
There were 8 Europeans in the 20 at the RWC equaling 40%

m@cc@

Bridge93 wrote: »

There's also far more competition to knock them out.

Between a Football World Cup and a Rugby World Cup? Nonsense. The QFs of a RWC will always contain at least 7 teams either from the 6N or Rugby Championship.

Bridge93

m@cc@ wrote: »

Between a Football World Cup and a Rugby World Cup? Nonsense. The QFs of a RWC will always contain at least 7 teams either from the 6N or Rugby Championship.

Well there's a reason why England being knocked out in the group in Brazil was less of a shock than the rugby team. There are more teams capable of beating each other. Spain were knocked out in their group.

It's getting off topic now and really a matter of opinion but the point was that it happens the odd time that results align, on ability and chance, to leave a situation where it seems one area is all dominant be it football or rugby.

molloyjh

Clearlier wrote: »

As someone who grew up watching rugby starting from the mid-80's. I'd say that the gap between the hemispheres has never been smaller. It used to be one drubbing after another - now over the past 5 years Ireland have beaten South Africa and Australia, Wales almost always lose by just a few points, England have beaten New Zealand and Australia, even Scotland have beaten South Africa and Australia. It's just lazy journalism to suggest that because the four semi-finalists come from the SH that a big gap has opened up again.

When you look at it had it not been for injuries the SFs could quite feasibly have looked like this:

New Zealand vs Wales
Australia vs Ireland

Ultimately these are the top 2 teams from both hemispheres at the moment. And even at that Scotland were a refereeing decision away from a SF themselves. The way the dice landed was just unfortunate for the NH sides this time around. Ultimately taking a sample set of 4 games with no context tells us nothing, yet many would have us believe it tells us everything.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Reading D'Arcy's article about training kids younger etc. and I'm thinking we need to sue him for plagiarism. Bar the odd personal anecdote he's pretty much lifted all of it from the conversations we've been having on Boards for the past few weeks. An obvious lurker if ever I saw one. Shame on you, Gordon!

sydthebeat

i think this is such a salient point by darcy thats lost on a lot of people

We have a population of about 110 professional players playing consistently who are Irish-qualified. At some point we have to go, you know what, it’s pretty impressive what we are doing.

davegrohl48

Darcy made the point that Noel Reid is the best passer of a ball in Ireland.
I don't know if that is true but Gordon Darcy has been fairly on the money with his articles these last few weeks and played with the guy at Leinster.
He said an interesting point, that he would have been taking up position to clear the ruck rather than await the offload if in the same scenario for one of Argentinas trys.

OldRio

aimee1 wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/international/gordon-d-arcy-coaching-players-younger-must-become-priority-1.2399288

Those looking for wholesale changes please take note of the following.

Argentina lost 18 matches out of 21 in Championship Rugby. Would you be happy with that ? Would the IRFU ? Would the media ? Would the coaches position be under threat ?

aimee1

davegrohl48 wrote: »

Darcy made the point that Noel Reid is the best passer of a ball in Ireland.
I don't know if that is true but Gordon Darcy has been fairly on the money with his articles these last few weeks and played with the guy at Leinster.
He said an interesting point, that he would have been taking up position to clear the ruck rather than await the offload if in the same scenario for one of Argentinas trys.

The hurling point us the most obvious part. Guys going into rugby academys are coming out of them 20kg bigger. Are they better able to read the game or pass a ball tho? Or are they programmed to look for contact and go to ground.


Do we want athletes who can play rugby, or rugby players who are athletic. I think we just need some small improvements in certain areas. There is a lot we get right as it is.

I read an article a while back about fernando torres. In about 2011 he was struggling for fitness and form and a former olympic sprinter said he could work with him to help him improve his speed over the first 10-15 metres. Maybe our outside backs could also do likewise. Small margins etc.

aimee1

OldRio wrote: »

Those looking for wholesale changes please take note of the following.

Argentina lost 18 matches out of 21 in Championship Rugby. Would you be happy with that ? Would the IRFU ? Would the media ? Would the coaches position be under threat ?

I think too much value is put on a rwc semi final. It would be great but the 6n is year on year, is the cash cow and a reasonable run of success does more for the profile of rugby then a rwc semi would. Look at leinster 2005 and leinster 2015 and compare the difference. Success can breed success.

BoardsMember

I have a few friends involved in coaching U10s. Most of what they teach is to ruck and tackle. I don't think their experience is unique at that age group. It's out of necessity, winning is everything. Give it to the big kid...crash, bang, wallop. A bit like the soccer, lump it up forward, win at all costs, very soon you end up with technique (skills) that dont stand up.

total former

sydthebeat wrote: »

i think this is such a salient point by darcy thats lost on a lot of people

110 IQ players? That's 27.5 per province, plus whatever number are playing abroad. Not sure D'Arcy's maths is right there.

But the bigger question is; how many do Argentina have? Wales? Australia? France have loads, England too, yet they did even worse than us - so what does that tell us?

Dodgy enough point I think there Darce. You're still a ledge though.

irishbucsfan

total former wrote: »

110 IQ players? That's 27.5 per province, plus whatever number are playing abroad. Not sure D'Arcy's maths is right there.

But the bigger question is; how many do Argentina have? Wales? Australia? France have loads, England too, yet they did even worse than us - so what does that tell us?

Dodgy enough point I think there Darce. You're still a ledge though.

It's 110 IQ fully professional players IN Ireland. Don't see where the problem is with that number. D'Arcy would be highly involved with IRUPA so it's probably lifted straight out of their membership figures.

Also, did you read the article? I only ask because he's addressed your second points about other countries pretty well elsewhere in the article so it seems as if you didn't. It's worth a read.

thebaz

the above would make sense, but yesterday I read this on the BBC website


Registered players in Tier One nations
Semi-finalists in bold, figures from 2014 World Rugby review
South Africa
342,316
England
340,347
France
291,202
Australia
230,663
New Zealand
148,483
Ireland
96,880
Italy
82,143
Wales
73,444
Argentina
56,998
Scotland
49,305

We're not that far off NZ , will never have the playing numbers of France and England , and Italy aren't doing great

molloyjh

total former wrote: »

110 IQ players? That's 27.5 per province, plus whatever number are playing abroad. Not sure D'Arcy's maths is right there.

But the bigger question is; how many do Argentina have? Wales? Australia? France have loads, England too, yet they did even worse than us - so what does that tell us?

Dodgy enough point I think there Darce. You're still a ledge though.

I'm assuming he was only counting guys playing in Ireland.`Still though you'd thik there are more than that at the provinces. Not much more mind you. Definitely less than 150 I'd have thought.

molloyjh

irishbucsfan wrote: »

It's 110 IQ fully professional players IN Ireland. Don't see where the problem is with that number. D'Arcy would be highly involved with IRUPA so it's probably lifted straight out of their membership figures.

Leinster alone have 44 by my count. Munster another 35. I think Ulster have 36. Are Connacht around 28? Their website doesn't make for a handy count like the others. That's around 140-145 in total.

aimee1

molloyjh wrote: »

I'm assuming he was only counting guys playing in Ireland.`Still though you'd thik there are more than that at the provinces. Not much more mind you. Definitely less than 150 I'd have thought.

i would imagine he is talking about 'senior' guys, so has excluded academy guys etc who simply wouldnt be let near the national team.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

thebaz wrote: »

the above would make sense, but yesterday I read this on the BBC website


Registered players in Tier One nations
Semi-finalists in bold, figures from 2014 World Rugby review
South Africa
342,316
England
340,347
France
291,202
Australia
230,663
New Zealand
148,483
Ireland
96,880
Italy
82,143
Wales
73,444
Argentina
56,998
Scotland
49,305

We're not that far off NZ , will never have the playing numbers of France and England , and Italy aren't doing great

Registered numbers aren't the same as professional players though.

In terms of our levels of success given the number of professional players, yes, we do quite well. I assume some players at the Provinces aren't actually on professional contracts, academy players etc?

I assume registered players are players registered with their clubs so if I remember my brother's club days that includes 14 year olds and 34 year olds and if they've got an old fogies team 54 year olds. What you'd need to see is precises age group numbers to see how many we've got looking 10/12 years down the line.

aimee1

molloyjh wrote: »

Leinster alone have 44 by my count. Munster another 35. I think Ulster have 36. Are Connacht around 28? Their website doesn't make for a handy count like the others. That's around 140-145 in total.

that adds up to 143. Take away about 25 NIQ players and your left with 118. So D'arcy isnt too far off the mark

irishbucsfan

molloyjh wrote: »

Leinster alone have 44 by my count. Munster another 35. I think Ulster have 36. Are Connacht around 28? Their website doesn't make for a handy count like the others. That's around 140-145 in total.

Well I don't know how many of those guys are really full time professionals, and I don't really think the exact number changes D'Arcy's point very much either way. It could be there's some really weird definition of full time professional and the likes of Ian Hirst and Mick McGrath don't qualify (I'm pretty sure you're including them if you've reached that number), who knows.

Tom Denton is #1

irishbucsfan

Deleted User wrote: »

Tom Denton is #1

I get the impression you have some sort of pro-ginger bias. If you do I submit that James Tracy is in fact #1

total former

irishbucsfan wrote: »

It's 110 IQ fully professional players IN Ireland. Don't see where the problem is with that number. D'Arcy would be highly involved with IRUPA so it's probably lifted straight out of their membership figures.

Perhaps it is what he means, but the article doesn't say that at all.

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Also, did you read the article? I only ask because he's addressed your second points about other countries pretty well elsewhere in the article so it seems as if you didn't. It's worth a read.

Yes, I read it.

.ak

total former wrote: »

110 IQ players? That's 27.5 per province, plus whatever number are playing abroad. Not sure D'Arcy's maths is right there.

But the bigger question is; how many do Argentina have? Wales? Australia? France have loads, England too, yet they did even worse than us - so what does that tell us?

Dodgy enough point I think there Darce. You're still a ledge though.

Probably doesn't include Connacht players.

molloyjh

aimee1 wrote: »

that adds up to 143. Take away about 25 NIQ players and your left with 118. So D'arcy isnt too far off the mark

I was only counting IQ players.

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Well I don't know how many of those guys are really full time professionals, and I don't really think the exact number changes D'Arcy's point very much either way. It could be there's some really weird definition of full time professional and the likes of Ian Hirst and Mick McGrath don't qualify (I'm pretty sure you're including them if you've reached that number), who knows.

Ah yeah, it doesn't really matter. There could be a definitional issue, or could even just be a number that's a couple of years old. The general point is fair enough. We've in and around the 140 mark in terms of IQ players playing in the country. That we're shown the ability to beat every team in the world bar the absolute best with that we can't be doing that badly.

irishbucsfan

total former wrote: »

Perhaps it is what he means, but the article doesn't say that at all.

We have a population of about 110 professional players playing consistently who are Irish-qualified

It's pretty much exactly what it says actually. I would interpret "we have a population" as referring to the population of Ireland, it'd take a pretty twisted interpretation to apply that to the population of any other country, surely?!.

"110 professional players playing consistently who are Irish-qualified" is pretty self-evident I'd imagine. Maybe he means to say those players are playing consistently at a fully professional level (IE Pro 12), that'd be a fair place to disagree with him but it's hardly going to make a major difference or affect his point in any meaningful way, is it?

total former

irishbucsfan wrote: »

It's pretty much exactly what it says actually. I would interpret "we have a population" as referring to the population of Ireland, it'd take a pretty twisted interpretation to apply that to the population of any other country, surely?!.

"110 professional players playing consistently who are Irish-qualified" is pretty self-evident I'd imagine. Maybe he means to say those players are playing consistently at a fully professional level (IE Pro 12), that'd be a fair place to disagree with him but it's hardly going to make a major difference or affect his point in any meaningful way, is it?

Why do you have to be so aggressive? Jesus.

It's a perfectly reasonable interpretation, because Irish-eligible players playing abroad are, wait for it now, eligible to play for Ireland.

If we're using pro players actually resident in the country as any sort of a benchmark, who should have won between Ireland and Argentina on Sunday?

Zzippy

.ak wrote: »

Probably doesn't include Connacht players.

:eek:

The boll0x!

irishbucsfan

total former wrote: »

Why do you have to be so aggressive? Jesus.

It's a perfectly reasonable interpretation, because Irish-eligible players playing abroad are, wait for it now, eligible to play for Ireland.

If we're using pro players actually resident in the country as any sort of a benchmark, who should have won between Ireland and Argentina on Sunday?

I wasn't arguing the validity of the benchmark. I'm showing you that he said exactly what you claim he didn't. He was talking about our population of professional rugby players, you said he didn't say that but that was a misrepresentation. It's cleared up now.

As for the validity of the benchmark: We only select players resident in Ireland. Argentina select any eligible players. So applying the same benchmark to them holds no value. We probably still have more professional players available for selection than Argentina, but I'd argue we see the benefits of that more often than not.

sydthebeat

irishbucsfan wrote: »

We only select players resident in Ireland.

??

total former

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I wasn't arguing the validity of the benchmark. I'm showing you that he said exactly what you claim he didn't. He was talking about our population of professional rugby players, you said he didn't say that but that was a misrepresentation. It's cleared up now.

No, it wasn't. It is completely open to interpretation. Unless you are Gordon D'Arcy, you know as much about it as I do.

irishbucsfan

sydthebeat wrote: »

??

We do, at times, select overseas players. However it's massively rare and usually avoided. The last overseas player to really get a shot was Geordie but he had been an established option since 2003. Unless someone truly special shows up overseas it's not going to happen again, especially while PRL and Top 14 maintain their no access rules about player release.

irishbucsfan

total former wrote: »

No, it wasn't. It is completely open to interpretation. Unless you are Gordon D'Arcy, you know as much about it as I do.

Well you're right, there's no such thing as an incorrect interpretation I suppose. It doesn't affect his point either way.

sydthebeat

irishbucsfan wrote: »

We do, at times, select overseas players. However it's massively rare and usually avoided. The last overseas player to really get a shot was Geordie but he had been an established option since 2003. Unless someone truly special shows up overseas it's not going to happen again, especially while PRL and Top 14 maintain their no access rules about player release.

oh i agree, it was just the whole sexton at racing thing that undermines any coherent policy.

The IRFU are pretty good about retaining out best players here i suppose, without having to implement any strict policy.

but anyway, Darcys point seems to have been lost in the semantics... which i think is that for a country where rugby is our 4th main sport, and have such a small pool of professional players to choose from, we are doing pretty good as it is, and that shouldnt be lost in the hyperbola and dismay of the RWc exit.

jacothelad

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Ulster saying Payne could be out for up to 2 months maybe more.

Looks like McCloskey is going to get lots of time to stake a claim for the green 13 shirt

Still no update on Bowe.

McCloskey has been playing at 12.

thebaz wrote: »

the above would make sense, but yesterday I read this on the BBC website


Registered players in Tier One nations
Semi-finalists in bold, figures from 2014 World Rugby review
South Africa
342,316
England
340,347
France
291,202
Australia
230,663
New Zealand
148,483
Ireland
96,880
Italy
82,143
Wales
73,444
Argentina
56,998
Scotland
49,305

We're not that far off NZ , will never have the playing numbers of France and England , and Italy aren't doing great

Do you realise that those figures for Ireland include just about every child in Primary School. They also include guys like me who is still a paying subscriber to a club but hasn't thrown a ball for almost 30 years.