Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread V

stephen_n

errlloyd wrote: »

Murray spent some time on the ground against Wales, he may have taken a knock.

I'm thinking this may be a factor, Joe may have been happy with Marmion coming on for the last 15-20 but if Murray is carrying a knock, might prefer Reddan's experience for this one.

Mr Tickle

Would Reddan's kicking game be better than Marmion's?
Maybe they think Reddan will be better to carry out a particular plan.

Mr Tickle

Would Reddan's kicking game be better than Marmion's?
Maybe they think Reddan will be better to carry out a particular plan.

Paul Smeenus

former total wrote: »

Yeah, that's all fair enough, but it's also two years ago. What happened four months ago seems more relevant.

I'm going to re-emphasise that I'm not bigging up Madigan, people will assume I am because I'm a Leinster fan, but it looks for all the world like the pecking order is pretty clear.

Agreed, it's a while ago, but you asked what evidence there was.

Anyway, Mads is off to France. I don't care if that is the catalyst that makes Jacko second choice, I think he deserves it and have more faith in him to deliver than Madigan.

Every time someone talks about the rationality and absolute clear-eyed logic of coaches' choices, I think about Alan Quinlan laughing his leg off at EOS on Against the Head when they had that "viewers' vote" for the best team of the professional era, and EOS suggested Easterby should have been at six rather than Ferris.

EOS is not, by any stretch, Schmidt. But both are fallible. As long as you win your games, you are, in hindsight, not proven wrong. That doesn't ,mean you picked the best team.

Mahatma Geansai

In fairness to Marmionn, he did nothing of note on Sunday. He couldn't even fashion an exit strategy to get off the bench.

The inclusion of Reddan and McFadden is a backwards, conservative step. The rumoured back three of Kearney/Kearney/Trimble is also extremely uninspiring.

Mahatma Geansai

In fairness to Marmionn, he did nothing of note on Sunday. He couldn't even fashion an exit strategy to get off the bench.

The inclusion of Reddan and McFadden is a backwards, conservative step. The rumoured back three of Kearney/Kearney/Trimble is also extremely uninspiring.

wp_rathead

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

In fairness to Marmionn, he did nothing of note on Sunday. He couldn't even fashion an exit strategy to get off the bench.

The inclusion of Reddan and McFadden is a backwards, conservative step. The rumoured back three of Kearney/Kearney/Trimble is also extremely uninspiring.

Sounds like a great law firm though
"Kearney, Kearney & Trimble"

Scythica

Maybe Reddan actually had a knock last week we just didnt know about.

Marmion for a good showing for Con then with the 2 week gap we should see who's preferred for England.

Scythica

Seriously why am I double posting all the time am I missing something?

LostArt

Just patience.

wp_rathead

wp_rathead wrote: »

Sounds like a great law firm though
"Kearney, Kearney & Trimble"

I can just imagine their ads on TV as defamation specialists.

"Have you been called slow? a poor defender? uninspiring? You may be a victim of defamation. Call Kearney, Kearney & Trimble for advice from above international level lawyers"

Otacon

Deleted User wrote: »

I can just imagine their ads on TV as defamation specialists.

"Have you been called slow? a poor defender? uninspiring? You may be a victim of defamation. Call Kearney, Kearney & Trimble for advice from above international level lawyers"

"...and of course, a no-win, same-fee guarantee."

Otacon

Otacon wrote: »

"...and of course, a no-win, same-fee guarantee."

Riskymove

Scythica wrote: »

Seriously why am I double posting all the time am I missing something?

I think if you use quick reply function it posts twice?

Neil3030

Reddan benching and the return of both Kearneys. I think all roads are pointing to a very aerial game, which is absolutely the right gameplan against a French back three that we should be able to target. Balance this with the ground game that we can launch through Stander and O'Brien and I really think we can get a result this weekend.

former total

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Agreed, it's a while ago, but you asked what evidence there was.

Anyway, Mads is off to France. I don't care if that is the catalyst that makes Jacko second choice, I think he deserves it and have more faith in him to deliver than Madigan.

Every time someone talks about the rationality and absolute clear-eyed logic of coaches' choices, I think about Alan Quinlan laughing his leg off at EOS on Against the Head when they had that "viewers' vote" for the best team of the professional era, and EOS suggested Easterby should have been at six rather than Ferris.

EOS is not, by any stretch, Schmidt. But both are fallible. As long as you win your games, you are, in hindsight, not proven wrong. That doesn't ,mean you picked the best team.

Conversely, losing does not mean you picked the wrong team.

I think Schmidt has made significant mistakes in his Ireland tenure but in general his judgement is very good. He sees a lot more than we do and he knows a lot more about the players than we do.

Also; Easterby was a great player. Not the force of nature that Ferris was but fantastic in other aspects of his game. I'd have no issue with that EOS comment.

BoardsMember

former total wrote: »

Conversely, losing does not mean you picked the wrong team.

I think Schmidt has made significant mistakes in his Ireland tenure but in general his judgement is very good. He sees a lot more than we do and he knows a lot more about the players than we do.

Also; Easterby was a great player. Not the force of nature that Ferris was but fantastic in other aspects of his game. I'd have no issue with that EOS comment.

Eddie arguably played him quite far into his natural decline as he got older though, particularly as more options playing well were becoming available. That's my memory of it anyhow.

Quint2010

Scythica wrote: »

Seriously why am I double posting all the time am I missing something?

Pardon?

errlloyd

Scythica wrote: »

Seriously why am I double posting all the time am I missing something?

Apparently it is most likely to happen with the quick reply box.

Teferi

errlloyd wrote: »

Apparently it is most likely to happen with the quick reply box.

I also think it happens to a lot of people who post from the app too.

The Rape of Lucretia

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

In fairness to Marmionn, he did nothing of note on Sunday. He couldn't even fashion an exit strategy to get off the bench.

The inclusion of Reddan and McFadden is a backwards, conservative step. The rumoured back three of Kearney/Kearney/Trimble is also extremely uninspiring.

I think Marmion gave his all but it just wasnt enough to hold his place. He sat well (some fine sitting early in the second half I though), warmed up OK, not sure on his singing, looked OK in a tracksuit, did some decent drills behind the posts during the game but nothing special. Decent enough level on all the above but not really international class. Some of his stretching looked suspect and may have cost him the spot. Reddan sings well, so worth giving him the nod on that aspect alone I think.

How can you criticise the inclusion of Reddan and McFadden as backwards, and then praise it as conservative all in the same sentence ?

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

I think Marmion gave his all but it just wasnt enough to hold his place. He sat well (some fine sitting early in the second half I though), warmed up OK, not sure on his singing, looked OK in a tracksuit, did some decent drills behind the posts during the game but nothing special. Decent enough level on all the above but not really international class. Some of his stretching looked suspect and may have cost him the spot. Reddan sings well, so worth giving him the nod on that aspect alone I think.

Reddan's versatility when it comes to singing is a big plus for him but it's not needed when we're away. We only do the one song. It makes Schmidt's selection all the more questionable.

Likewise Stander impressed with his cupla focail on Sunday but I wouldn't be surprised to see him dropped for someone with better annunciation this weekend.

errlloyd

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Reddan's versatility when it comes to singing is a big plus for him but it's not needed when we're away. We only do the one song. It makes Schmidt's selection all the more questionable.

Likewise Stander impressed with his cupla focail on Sunday but I wouldn't be surprised to see him dropped for someone with better annunciation this weekend.

Reddan is also know to give a much stronger pat on the back when the exhausted backrow player (who came off after playing 65 more minutes than the sub scrum half will ever play) gets man of the match.

Marmion didn't get his chance to congratulate the man of the match, because he was still on the field on Sunday, but that is a big gap in what the coach knows about him. Until Marmion proves that at an international level, I can't see him getting picked to potentially pat the back of the man of the match winner again.

stephen_n

Mr Tickle wrote: »

Would Reddan's kicking game be better than Marmion's?
Maybe they think Reddan will be better to carry out a particular plan.

Kicking is probably the weakest part of Reddan's game. If Marmions kicking is weaker we will be in serious trouble down the line.

The Rape of Lucretia

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Likewise Stander impressed with his cupla focail on Sunday but I wouldn't be surprised to see him dropped for someone with better annunciation this weekend.

Some here were trying to dress Stander's coming last Sunday as that of the Saviour of the Irish backrow and the fulfilment of the annunciation, whatever the quality of his enunciation.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Some here were trying to dress Stander's coming last Sunday as that of the Saviour of the Irish backrow and the fulfilment of the annunciation, whatever the quality of his enunciation.

I was saying enunciation but with a South African accent, which I think proves my very point.

The Black Stags

Obviously there is a massive finical motivation to in the 6 nations every year, which leads to a perhaps conservative selection. But, is there any additional monetary gain from winning a tour (the SA tour this summer)? I mean we'd like to win, but we get paid just for showing up don't we?

1eg0a3xv7b82of

if reddan mcfadden are in the 23 sat I will not watch it.
I dont mind a little nepotism and cronyism but Schmidt would be going too far for my liking.

1eg0a3xv7b82of

if reddan mcfadden are in the 23 sat I will not watch it.
I dont mind a little nepotism and cronyism but Schmidt would be going too far for my liking.

CatFromHue

The Black Stags wrote: »

Obviously there is a massive finical motivation to in the 6 nations every year, which leads to a perhaps conservative selection. But, is there any additional monetary gain from winning a tour (the SA tour this summer)? I mean we'd like to win, but we get paid just for showing up don't we?

I'm not sure there's any money for winning a tour.

It used to be that the home country hosted the visiting team at their expense but got to keep all the money from tickets and that. Then this is reciprocated in November.

Leandro Round Billboard

Leandro Round Billboard wrote: »

if reddan mcfadden are in the 23 sat I will not watch it.
I dont mind a little nepotism and cronyism but Schmidt would be going too far for my liking.

Not watch it? Would you ever feck off

1eg0a3xv7b82of

Deleted User wrote: »

Not watch it? Would you ever feck off

I am not a sheep, baa says you.

Neil3030

Neil3030 wrote: »

Reddan benching and the return of both Kearneys. I think all roads are pointing to a very aerial game, which is absolutely the right gameplan against a French back three that we should be able to target. Balance this with the ground game that we can launch through Stander and O'Brien and I really think we can get a result this weekend.

Dave Kearney is being picked due to injury, and Rob Kearney would have been starting last weekend if he had been fit. These aren't horse-for-courses selections, he's not going to change up the gameplan because Earls has gotten injured and he needs to play D. Kearney instead. We kept the ball in hand nicely against Wales and I hope that continues.

RoundBox11

Leandro Round Billboard wrote: »

if reddan mcfadden are in the 23 sat I will not watch it.
I dont mind a little nepotism and cronyism but Schmidt would be going too far for my liking.

Im sure Joe and the team would be devastated if they knew

wp_rathead

Leandro Round Billboard wrote: »

if reddan mcfadden are in the 23 sat I will not watch it.
I dont mind a little nepotism and cronyism but Schmidt would be going too far for my liking.

Ha in a sense l (kind of) get what you mean..
It would be pretty disheartening to see McFadden considering the season he has had but he won't, I'm sure Rob Kearney be fit and be either Zebo or Dave on bench
..but regardless, to not watch it over a selection is a bit silly

andymx11

wp_rathead wrote: »

Ha in a sense l (kind of) get what you mean..
It would be pretty disheartening to see McFadden considering the season he has had but he won't, I'm sure Rob Kearney be fit and be either Zebo or Dave on bench
..but regardless, to not watch it over a selection is a bit silly

But he WILL watch it. Attention seekers- bless.

Leandro Round Billboard

Leandro Round Billboard wrote: »

I am not a sheep, baa says you.

What does that even mean? I will follow my team?

Yeah stick to Schmidt by not watching this Saturday. Please do.

irishbucsfan

With Marmion I was happy to see him selected against Wales but making his 6 Nations debut in Stade de France or Twickenham is probably something Schmidt isn't too keen on when we have an alternative. I would hope we'll see him against Italy.

If Zebo and Earls are both out then McFadden makes some sense, at that stage there really aren't any alternatives given the injuries to Bowe and Fitzgerald. If it's just Earls out then I'm sure we'll see Zebo on the bench.

irishbucsfan

With Marmion I was happy to see him selected against Wales but making his 6 Nations debut in Stade de France or Twickenham is probably something Schmidt isn't too keen on when we have an alternative. I would hope we'll see him against Italy.

If Zebo and Earls are both out then McFadden makes some sense, at that stage there really aren't any alternatives given the injuries to Bowe and Fitzgerald. If it's just Earls out then I'm sure we'll see Zebo on the bench.

Leandro Round Billboard

Leandro Round Billboard wrote: »

if reddan mcfadden are in the 23 sat I will not watch it.
I dont mind a little nepotism and cronyism but Schmidt would be going too far for my liking.

If this means the board will be spared your views on the game afterwards then god I hope they are picked.

jacothelad

In regard to the discussion/s around concussion, this is from the UAFC.
The response is from a consultant at the RVH in Belfast.

"..... out of interest and ignorance, if you have had concussion, what actual difference does one or two weeks make to the persons recovery, i know its a lot different at schools an club rugby were there's a mandatory sit out period, just interested in the medical reasons for shorter time and long term complications. Ta."

"Hard question to answer because the symptoms, signs and recovery times are all so variable from person to person.
However, in terms of the way concussion works - it causes changes in the blood flows and blood chemistry in the brain and we now know these changes make the brain more susceptible to further injuries within a period of time from minutes to a couple of weeks.
These biochemical changes resolve and go within about two weeks, hence the feeling that a period of three weeks as a blanket solution is about right (with another week added in the under 20s as they are more susceptible to injury than adults are).
BUT the actual symptoms and signs that an individual may have are immensely variable. We know that 90% of people will have fully recovered within the two week period but a small minority can have all kinds of symptoms going on for anything up to a period of several weeks to a few months. These are often non-specific things like tiredness, feeling depressed, lethargy, sleep disturbance, etc.
The first thing that has to happen is that the brain should be rested until the initial symptoms like headache, dizziness, memory loss, etc have settled and this often happens within a day or two. For the amateur game, you need symptom resolution, a minimum of two weeks rest, then you can start the PTP protocol. In the pro game, you need brain function to return to as good as or better than your pre-season test results along with symptom resolution before you can start the protocol.
As to why some people have a rapid resolution while others take much longer, there are a few factors - some are more susceptible than others to head blows or collisions, having had some concussions already often causes things to be slower to resolve as well. Worrying signs are when it happens with milder and milder collisions, or lasts longer and longer, for example
The big problem in the pro game is how to tell a concussion from a simple bang without concussion very quickly - pretty well every concussion will declare itself within two days. We are getting better but, more importantly, are being more and more careful to regard an injury as concussion until it is proven or not and more and more careful about making sure players are definitely fit to return to full on play.
Hope that helps."

Billysays no

aimee1 wrote: »

The RWC is every 4 years. While getting beyond a QF would be good I dont think it should become the be all for irish rugby. The national team generates most of the finance for the IRFU to fund the game so year on year the 6n holds importance.

Connacht have had much improved representation in the extended squad and had 3 players in the match day squad last week. Dillane is also obviously well thought of so further representation isnt too far away, and one or two others are close too.

McFadden was called up because he covers several positions, knows the systems - important in the circumstances in that Ireland have a 6 day turnaround with recovery, minimal training sessions and a trip to Paris. Its a selection that suits the situation. Its practical, not conservative. Throwing players in for the sake of removing the false conservatism tag isnt the way forward

Its strange but this is exactly the type of opinion that former total supports that i simply don't get. so madigan is on the bench because he is versatile. Mcfadden is called up because he is versatile.

Versatile says to me, well i'm not fantastic at any position but i can slot into multiple positions should the case arise. so lets take the irish back row last weekend. we had zebo, trimble, henshaw, payne, earls, sexton and murray.

So lets pose questions.

The full back gets injured: So we can choose from payne or henshaw to move to fullback so we need a centre replacement.

A winger gets injured: Well zebo is a winger by trade and henshaw or payne could cover full back so we need a centre replacement on the bench.

A centre get injured: We need a proven centre on the bench.

Its just simple logic. McCloskey had to be on the bench.

I will never get this utility player stuff. Madigan is not the option. It was a crazy decision.

By nature its a scrum half, an out half and a back replacement. The scrum half was decided (while he scratched his bum), the out half wasnt selected (it had to be jackson) and then the cover had to be mccloskey.

Or maybe I miss the point of this game. To provide a utility player on the bench when it was obvious the requirements is simply fada amach for me

molloyjh

Leandro Round Billboard wrote: »

I am not a sheep, baa says you.

So if you don't watch it does that mean we get a match thread without your posts!?

Oh please Joe, please pick Redser and Ferg....

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Murray Kinsella has his own TV show! Kind of.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7__14q-oB0

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Probably shouldn't go in here but seeing as they're mainly talking about Ireland.....

Murray Kinsella has his own TV show! Kind of.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7__14q-oB0

The Black Stags

Very good video thanks, shower them with praise in the hope they do more!

Clearlier

Billysays no wrote: »

Its strange but this is exactly the type of opinion that former total supports that i simply don't get. so madigan is on the bench because he is versatile. Mcfadden is called up because he is versatile.

Versatile says to me, well i'm not fantastic at any position but i can slot into multiple positions should the case arise. so lets take the irish back row last weekend. we had zebo, trimble, henshaw, payne, earls, sexton and murray.

So lets pose questions.

The full back gets injured: So we can choose from payne or henshaw to move to fullback so we need a centre replacement.

A winger gets injured: Well zebo is a winger by trade and henshaw or payne could cover full back so we need a centre replacement on the bench.

A centre get injured: We need a proven centre on the bench.

Its just simple logic. McCloskey had to be on the bench.

I will never get this utility player stuff. Madigan is not the option. It was a crazy decision.

By nature its a scrum half, an out half and a back replacement. The scrum half was decided (while he scratched his bum), the out half wasnt selected (it had to be jackson) and then the cover had to be mccloskey.

Or maybe I miss the point of this game. To provide a utility player on the bench when it was obvious the requirements is simply fada amach for me

I'd disagree that Madigan is on the bench only because he is versatile. I think that he's primarily there because he's a pretty good impact sub - the versatility is a bonus which reduces the need for positional switches in the event of an injury. The biggest selection error that I thought Schmidt made at the world cup was starting Madigan against Romania. For my money he should have subbed on in every game but Jackson should have started when Sexton didn't so that when Sexton did get injured Jackson could have been selected for the next game. As it was he simply hadn't had enough game time to be a serious contender to start against Argentina and considering that we lost the game because of defence rather than attack I'm not sure that him starting would have had much of an impact on the result anyway and if Madigan hadn't started against Romania perhaps he wouldn't have played so well against France - you can go on and on with whatif's.

I think that McFadden is selected because Schmidt thinks that he can contribute more to the team on the wing that any other player can - I'm not getting into the rights and wrongs of that because I've seen very little of McFadden this season. I would note however that I was pleasantly surprised at the Zebo's performance at the weekend given the comments on here about his form. Did he play better than everybody expected and if so could that be down to a different coaching environment and could the same apply to McFadden who when in form is a pretty good player - notwithstanding the fact that (as with Gilroy) he has never been first choice for his province.

In terms of the substitutes bench I haven't worked out how Schmidt thinks. You'd struggle to find anyone on these boards who thought that having Felix Jones on the bench last year was a good idea. We did win the competition though which makes me wonder where I go wrong more than why Schmidt made an error.

aimee1

Billysays no wrote: »

Its strange but this is exactly the type of opinion that former total supports that i simply don't get. so madigan is on the bench because he is versatile. Mcfadden is called up because he is versatile.

Versatile says to me, well i'm not fantastic at any position but i can slot into multiple positions should the case arise. so lets take the irish back row last weekend. we had zebo, trimble, henshaw, payne, earls, sexton and murray.

So lets pose questions.

The full back gets injured: So we can choose from payne or henshaw to move to fullback so we need a centre replacement.

A winger gets injured: Well zebo is a winger by trade and henshaw or payne could cover full back so we need a centre replacement on the bench.

A centre get injured: We need a proven centre on the bench.

Its just simple logic. McCloskey had to be on the bench.

I will never get this utility player stuff. Madigan is not the option. It was a crazy decision.

By nature its a scrum half, an out half and a back replacement. The scrum half was decided (while he scratched his bum), the out half wasnt selected (it had to be jackson) and then the cover had to be mccloskey.

Or maybe I miss the point of this game. To provide a utility player on the bench when it was obvious the requirements is simply fada amach for me

JS has said on more than one occasion that he likes to keep disruption to a minimum. So if a player goes off he likes to have as many options covered to keep the backline intact. JS said this on several occasions including during the 6n 2014 (madigan over jackson for paris) and at the RWC squad announcement to name two.

When RK was ruled out last week Zebo went straight in. No shuffling the backline and losing a lot of the prep work done in the build up. Thats one of the things Madigan offers from the bench. Along with his quality goal kicking. Or it could simply be JS rates IM over PJ but I do think the cover is part of it.

I would guess McFadden was called up because he also offers that type of cover, even if it is only running against the XV selected in training drills as he can do so from 11-14 as he has played in those 4 positions for Leinster. His past experience within the group and limited time between games on top of various knocks/injuries make this very much a practical decision

Also, with Fitz out, who can also can play across the backline, so if he wasnt injured i dont think McFadden would have been drafted in. McFadden is unlikely to get much if any gametime in the 6n barring injuries.

jacothelad

Billysays no wrote: »

Its strange but this is exactly the type of opinion that former total supports that i simply don't get. so madigan is on the bench because he is versatile. Mcfadden is called up because he is versatile.

Versatile says to me, well i'm not fantastic at any position but i can slot into multiple positions should the case arise. so lets take the irish back row last weekend. we had zebo, trimble, henshaw, payne, earls, sexton and murray.

So lets pose questions.

The full back gets injured: So we can choose from payne or henshaw to move to fullback so we need a centre replacement.

A winger gets injured: Well zebo is a winger by trade and henshaw or payne could cover full back so we need a centre replacement on the bench.

A centre get injured: We need a proven centre on the bench.

Its just simple logic. McCloskey had to be on the bench.

I will never get this utility player stuff. Madigan is not the option. It was a crazy decision.

By nature its a scrum half, an out half and a back replacement. The scrum half was decided (while he scratched his bum), the out half wasnt selected (it had to be jackson) and then the cover had to be mccloskey.

Or maybe I miss the point of this game. To provide a utility player on the bench when it was obvious the requirements is simply fada amach for me

Actually, taking your argument a bit further, the back on the bench could be Luke Marshall. Has played 10 in the AIl and was pretty good.....a long time ago but was a pretty decent goal kicker. given how crap the kicking coach at Ulster is, marshall probably doesn't even get to keep it up to speed -(ditto McCloskey who ended up as kicker in the early games.) He Has played 12 and 13 to a high standard including international and Super Duper Cup and has played wing and full back for Ulster. McCloskey is a great find for Ireland and I sort of agree with you about using 'mongrel' players instead of those who actually excel - at least in the starting 15. Having high quality players who can step in to another position is useful. We can't have 15 players on the bench so if the coach is concerned about injuries then it makes sense to use utility players. It does stick in my craw a bit but it is pragmatic. I still think that McCloskey and Henshaw would make an excellent 12 and 13. I think Payne is a classy player but better at 15 than 13 and I would have no problem if he replaced Bob at 15. To be honest they are pretty much well ahead of the rest including TOH when it comes to this position - for now.

As for Jackson, I'm happy that he gets to play for Ulster. Imagine the shyt storm there would be if he ever missed an important kick to win a game - e.g. against the All Blacks or to get level with Argentina in a RWC game....It would be dreadful. No other Irish 10 has ever been unfortunate to do that....:D but it's a definite possibility.

Neil3030

How tall is Murray Kinsella??