Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread V

Buer

galwaylad14 wrote: »

The Dave Kearney argument. "He won't win you a match but he won't lose you one either".

Fast forward to RWC QF in October 2015, solid Dave managed to miss 60% of his tackles in one of Ireland's biggest ever games.

Rewind to him shooting out of the line against France to force the forward pass and we win the 6N.

It's fun to base things off a single game pointlessly.

Mahatma Geansai

Scythica wrote: »

So is SOB going to be told to give em hell for 50-60 then bring TOD on for him or is Stander (given he seemed to tire a lot last week - understandable) emptying the tank early and going off instead?

You're answers may or may not affect my fantasy team and I'm currently 69th in the world on ESPN so I have faith in my internet brethren here.

However Joe plans to use the bench, he needs to be more progressive with its use. I think we've been too slow to introduce players for much of his tenure.

kilns

galwaylad14 wrote: »

The Dave Kearney argument. "He won't win you a match but he won't lose you one either".

Fast forward to RWC QF in October 2015, solid Dave managed to miss 60% of his tackles in one of Ireland's biggest ever games.


Nothing against McFadden but I just can't see how he's on that bench ahead of McCloskey or even Gilroy.

Glad to know the whole Argentina defeat was only down to one guy. :rolleyes:

aimee1

slingerz wrote: »

I think McFadden being called up is a bit of a joke. Hardly inspires performances from Gilroy or Healy who have performed much better than McFadden this season. Surely they are worth a call up ahead of him.

Your arguing over our 7th to 9th choices and the most experienced international gets the nod. If Earls, Zebo, Trimble and DK are available for the England game then one of the 4 wont be selected at all unless RK is unavailable

Utah_Saint

McF in the team is what it is, just have to get on with it and hope for a win.

Although, guys like Jackson, McCloskey and Gilroy must wonder what more can I do to break into the Ireland team? I'm sure they may also have thoughts of 'my face doesn't fit'

You cant blame Provencal fans who sympathize with them, some maybe a bit over the top, but still....

shuffol

Gosh we'd never have a hope of winning in Paris with that back 3

Oh wait...

bilston

Utah_Saint wrote: »

McF in the team is what it is, just have to get on with it and hope for a win.

Although, guys like Jackson, McCloskey and Gilroy must wonder what more can I do to break into the Ireland team? I'm sure they may also have thoughts of 'my face doesn't fit'

You cant blame Provencal fans who sympathize with them, some maybe a bit over the top, but still....

Versatility seems very important to Joe so McFadden's selection is understandable.

Given that, if Olding comes through the next two weeks unscathed he must have a very good chance of being added to the squad for the latter half of the campaign. He is versatility personified.

awec

bilston wrote: »

Versatility seems very important to Joe so McFadden's selection is understandable.

Given that, if Olding comes through the next two weeks unscathed he must have a very good chance of being added to the squad for the latter half of the campaign. He is versatility personified.

He might be called up to hold a few tackle bags alright.

Noopti

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

However Joe plans to use the bench, he needs to be more progressive with its use. I think we've been too slow to introduce players for much of his tenure.

huh? I recall a running theme of most of the analysis of Irish matches with Joe in charge has been that he does use the bench very well. In that when the replacements come on the performance has rarely dipped and that they are used as a weapon.

What are you basing your statement on?

Neil3030

Utah_Saint wrote: »

McF in the team is what it is, just have to get on with it and hope for a win.

Although, guys like Jackson, McCloskey and Gilroy must wonder what more can I do to break into the Ireland team? I'm sure they may also have thoughts of 'my face doesn't fit'

You cant blame Provencal fans who sympathize with them, some maybe a bit over the top, but still....

It's just the timing. With a 6-day turnaround between the first two games, against two of the best teams in the tournament, solidity and continuity was the name of the game. After tomorrow we'll have two weeks off before England, before finish up with Scotland and Italy. I'm sure some of these players will feature at some point.

jm08

.ak wrote: »

Despite winning two six nations we haven't improved.

Okay.

France has been uncompetitive in the 6ns since they won their last Grand Slam in 2010. They won the wooden spoon in 2013.

France are not the team they were prior to 2011 - so Ireland really didn't have to improve much to beat them - they are beating themselves.

dub_skav

Utah_Saint wrote: »

You cant blame Provencal fans who sympathize with them, some maybe a bit over the top, but still....

I don't know why you're bringing the French into this.

Utah_Saint

dub_skav wrote: »

I don't know why you're bringing the French into this.

I was actually referring to Provencal Sauce fans....

Tox56

Utah_Saint wrote: »

McF in the team is what it is, just have to get on with it and hope for a win.

Although, guys like Jackson, McCloskey and Gilroy must wonder what more can I do to break into the Ireland team? I'm sure they may also have thoughts of 'my face doesn't fit'

You cant blame Provencal fans who sympathize with them, some maybe a bit over the top, but still....

Can someone please explain to me what 'the face doesn't fit' actually means? I've seen the phrase used countless times regarding selections and I really don't understand people using it are trying to say. Does it just mean that Schmidt doesn't rate them as players or is it something more that?

former total

Utah_Saint wrote: »

McF in the team is what it is, just have to get on with it and hope for a win.

Although, guys like Jackson, McCloskey and Gilroy must wonder what more can I do to break into the Ireland team? I'm sure they may also have thoughts of 'my face doesn't fit'

You cant blame Provencal fans who sympathize with them, some maybe a bit over the top, but still....

Jackson - discussed plenty already...

McCloskey - he's competing with Robbie Henshaw, who continues to impress game after game at international level. McC has only been first choice for Ulster for a very short period of time, he has little enough track record to go on, but he'll get a few caps if he keeps it up.

Gilroy - definite case of "face doesn't fit". Whatever undeniable strengths he has, they are being outweighed in Joe's eyes by his failings.

Jackson will feature at some point. It seems McCloskey is behind Luke Marshall too. Gilroy needs yet more injuries.

former total

Tox56 wrote: »

Can someone please explain to me what 'the face doesn't fit' actually means? I've seen the phrase used countless times regarding selections and I really don't understand people using it are trying to say. Does it just mean that Schmidt doesn't rate them as players or is it something more that?

It's what Darren Cave said once when asked why he never gets picked for Ireland.

jm08

bilston wrote: »

Versatility seems very important to Joe so McFadden's selection is understandable.

Given that, if Olding comes through the next two weeks unscathed he must have a very good chance of being added to the squad for the latter half of the campaign. He is versatility personified.

Felix Jones on bench last year?

What Joe valued about Jones was his ability to come in off the bench and keep a cool head in a tight situation.

Sexton & Murray will not be subbed unless Ireland has a large lead or they get injured, so it's pointless having guys like Marmion & Jackson on the bench because they are not going to get gametime. Reddan & Madigan's are better able to deal with that. I would expect both Jackson & Marmion to get some time versus Scotland and Italy.

Mr Tickle

Tox56 wrote: »

Can someone please explain to me what 'the face doesn't fit' actually means? I've seen the phrase used countless times regarding selections and I really don't understand people using it are trying to say. Does it just mean that Schmidt doesn't rate them as players or is it something more that?

It's something that Darren Cave said in an interview. He was talking about being frustrated at being repeatedly overlooked. I think he felt that he deserved his place and was running out of possible reasons for his exclusion.
Probably not the best thing to say in the national press.

Utah_Saint

Tox56 wrote: »

Can someone please explain to me what 'the face doesn't fit' actually means? I've seen the phrase used countless times regarding selections and I really don't understand people using it are trying to say. Does it just mean that Schmidt doesn't rate them as players or is it something more that?

Comment made by Darren cave allegedly....trying to explain why he was not making it into the Ireland setup

NiallBoo

Mr Tickle wrote: »

It's something that Darren Cave said in an interview. He was talking about being frustrated at being repeatedly overlooked. I think he felt that he deserved his place and was running out of possible reasons for his exclusion.
Probably not the best thing to say in the national press.

I suspect that sometimes with players that Joe just doesn't like their attitude/gets rubbed up the wrong way by them.
My guesses for this would include Gilroy, cave and Dennis Buckley.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

McFadden getting the call up is in the same file as Zebo playing FB last week.

If Rob Kearney had been on the long term injury list, like Bowe or POM, I would imagine we'd have been seeing something different last week. Same this week. We knew Bowe was out but we still had 4 wingers in the squad. Two of them go down after the first game and you've got 3 or 4 days before you have to name your team again. And we're talking about a bench spot here too.

It's not exciting or a particularly inspiring call up but it is a sensible one.

Against Wales it didn't really look like Schmidt was going to use any of the backs off the bench. Earls and Sexton both took knocks late on but I don't know that they would have been replaced otherwise. If the France game is tight I assume it'll be the same. Barring someone picking up knocks McFadden may not even get on the pitch.

Someone mentioned it earlier we are essentially arguing over the 6th choice winger here. Yes, you could argue there are better 6th choice wingers available, but much like the selections for the Argentina game it's a very specific set of circumstances, ones that may never be repeated again.

Mr Tickle

NiallBoo wrote: »

I suspect that sometimes with players that Joe just doesn't like their attitude/gets rubbed up the wrong way by them.
My guesses for this would include Gilroy, cave and Dennis Buckley.

I suppose he is human. If you heard someone saying that kind of thing in the papers you wouldn't be thrilled.
no matter how professional you are this will have some kind of impact on your decisions.

LostArt

NiallBoo wrote: »

I suspect that sometimes with players that Joe just doesn't like their attitude/gets rubbed up the wrong way by them.
My guesses for this would include Gilroy, cave and Dennis Buckley.

Or he just doesn't rate them.

NiallBoo

Mr Tickle wrote: »

I suppose he is human. If you heard someone saying that kind of thing in the papers you wouldn't be thrilled.
no matter how professional you are this will have some kind of impact on your decisions.

It's hard to say if it is or isn't "professIonal".
If he just dislikes a guy then it isn't but if he thinks that a player has an uncooperative attitude then it makes sense.

The unfortunate thing is that he doesn't get much time with players and it can sometimes be hard to tell the difference between someone who's uncooperative and someone who's willing but just a bit guarded/not that socially skilled.

Mr Tickle

NiallBoo wrote: »

It's hard to say if it is or isn't "professIonal".
If he just dislikes a guy then it isn't but if he thinks that a player has an uncooperative attitude then it makes sense.

The unfortunate thing is that he doesn't get much time with players and it can sometimes be hard to tell the difference between someone who's uncooperative and someone who's willing but just a bit guarded/not that socially skilled.

Yeah i'm not suggesting he's "unprofessional".
Just that there's going to be a human element to any group like that. Similarly Cave probably didn't fully consider that that might have been picked up as a slight.

Neil3030

I can't wait until VdF establishes himself in the Ireland setup and we can see a backrow of SOB, VdF, Heaslip, with Stander to come exploding off the bench.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Mr Tickle wrote: »

Yeah i'm not suggesting he's "unprofessional".
Just that there's going to be a human element to any group like that. Similarly Cave probably didn't fully consider that that might have been picked up as a slight.

I'd imagine the reaction from players not being picked will be noticed, whatever it is.

Someone who takes whatever notes on board and goes back to their club and is immediately an Ulster/Leinster/Whatever player again and shows no negative effects from not being picked is obviously going to be in a coaches good books more than someone who goes back with a chip on their shoulder. Even if Cave didn't mean anything by it the safe answer is to say as little as possible.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Given the concussion chat this week.... Gonzaga coach on the pitch yelling at the referee for sending a kid off for a HIA.

kilns

Neil3030 wrote: »

I can't wait until VdF establishes himself in the Ireland setup and we can see a backrow of SOB, VdF, Heaslip, with Stander to come exploding off the bench.

Dont be upsetting the Munster guys now :pac::p

sydthebeat

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Given the concussion chat this week.... Gonzaga coach on the pitch yelling at the referee for sending a kid off for a HIA.

i dont think they have HIAs at that level...

but the referee is well within his/her rights to remove a player from the field if they feel they are concussed. (law 3.9)

they have some awkward forms to fill out afterwards though

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

sydthebeat wrote: »

i dont think they have HIAs at that level...

but the referee is well within his/her rights to remove a player from the field if they feel they are concussed. (law 3.9)

they have some awkward forms to fill out afterwards though

Well, he's had him permanently substituted then.

The kid had some blood coming from their head, don't know if it was just a cut or what but the doctor said "head injury" to the ref so the ref told them to substitute him.Gonzaga coach was full on yelling at the referee that the kid doesn't have a concussion and why is he sending him off. Not pretty considering these are kids.

sydthebeat

the referee will always win out... though if the club doctor (if really a doctor) says it was just a cut and not a concussion, then the ref will have to back up their reasons to invoke 3.9

Fair play to the referee

Johnny Farango

Neil3030 wrote: »

I can't wait until VdF establishes himself in the Ireland setup and we can see a backrow of SOB, VdF, Heaslip, with Stander to come exploding off the bench.

I can't wait till Jack O'Donoghue progresses and we can go with O'Mahoney, O'Donoghue and Stander... O'Brien to explode off the bench (slapping lads in the ribs on the way)

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

sydthebeat wrote: »

the referee will always win out... though if the club doctor (if really a doctor) says it was just a cut and not a concussion, then the ref will have to back up their reasons to invoke 3.9

It looks like maybe the doctor said the words "head injury" but meant injury on the head area rather than head injury. Ref reacted to that and the coach reacted to the ref. Not a great way to react whether the ref was right or not.

Which team was it they showed on that RTÉ documentary that had a kid clearly staggering on the pitch last season but they wouldn't talk to the documentary crew about it?

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Actually, I just watched it back there and what happened was the doctor and the coach are talking to the kid and the doctor is asking him HIA questions. The ref hears this and says no, there's no HIA questions allowed. The doctor starts saying it's his medical right/obligation to ask these questions and the ref says if you think it's a head injury that's it, he's off.

Obviously I've no idea about the rules at that level but it sounds like the ref has it spot on?

vetinari

What is it about Irish managers?
Don't get me wrong Joe Schmidt is obviously head and shoulders better than Declan Kidney or Eddie O Sullivan but after a while they all seem to get in this mode of just picking players they know.

Dave Kearney would have dropped down the pecking order for a while at most other top countries after the quarter final performance. Especially as we have other players at a similar level. McFadden is a pure "I know what he's like" pick.

If Sexton is fully fit then obviously pick him, if he's at 60% though you'd have to ask why he's playing ahead of Paddy Jackson.
It's like year over year, any Irish manager grows more and more risk averse.

vetinari

What is it about Irish managers?
Don't get me wrong Joe Schmidt is obviously head and shoulders better than Declan Kidney or Eddie O Sullivan but after a while they all seem to get in this mode of just picking players they know.

Dave Kearney would have dropped down the pecking order for a while at most other top countries after the quarter final performance. Especially as we have other players at a similar level. McFadden is a pure "I know what he's like" pick.

If Sexton is fully fit then obviously pick him, if he's at 60% though you'd have to ask why he's playing ahead of Paddy Jackson.
It's like year over year, any Irish manager grows more and more risk averse.

Podge_irl

vetinari wrote: »

Dave Kearney would have dropped down the pecking order for a while at most other top countries after the quarter final performance.

Why? As punishment or something stupid?

It was 4 months ago, he's playing well now and plenty of players had poor performances against Argentina. He wasn't first choice but Earls and Zebo are both injured. Clearly Schmidt doesn't think we have players at a similar level - and whatever you think overall about Gilroy vs Kearney they are completely different players so it depends on what he's looking for as well.

We have no idea what % level of fitness Sexton is at so it seems somewhat pointless speculation but if he's fit to play he plays.

How is picking Zebo at full back for the first game risk averse? Or essentially creating a centre combo of Payne/Henshaw? Schmidt is not risk averse, he is just incredibly meticulous about what he wants.

Neil3030

Johnny Farango wrote: »

I can't wait till Jack O'Donoghue progresses and we can go with O'Mahoney, O'Donoghue and Stander... O'Brien to explode off the bench (slapping lads in the ribs on the way)

Nah, clearly that would be a warmup tour game against a club of some sort, so SOB could take the afternoon off to film more Supermacs ads :pac:

aimee1

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Which team was it they showed on that RTÉ documentary that had a kid clearly staggering on the pitch last season but they wouldn't talk to the documentary crew about it?

it was schools cup final anyway

kilns

vetinari wrote: »

What is it about Irish managers?
Don't get me wrong Joe Schmidt is obviously head and shoulders better than Declan Kidney or Eddie O Sullivan but after a while they all seem to get in this mode of just picking players they know.

Dave Kearney would have dropped down the pecking order for a while at most other top countries after the quarter final performance. Especially as we have other players at a similar level. McFadden is a pure "I know what he's like" pick.

If Sexton is fully fit then obviously pick him, if he's at 60% though you'd have to ask why he's playing ahead of Paddy Jackson.
It's like year over year, any Irish manager grows more and more risk averse.

No way Kearney should be "punished" for that quarter final. If so alot more should have too.

With the amount of players missing against Wales, would we have seen a result like that 5 -10 years ago? No way. Because we have a better squad depth and it is because all the players know what is expected of them and how the system works, firstly you need to earn a call up to the squad and then learn and adapt. Nobody knows what goes on behind closed doors but I am sure each player gets a fair chance but they must adapt to the way the coach wants to play, no exceptions and the coach's results speak for themselves so I would bow to whatever he wants

wp_rathead

Neil3030 wrote: »

I can't wait until VdF establishes himself in the Ireland setup and we can see a backrow of SOB, VdF, Heaslip, with Stander to come exploding off the bench.

Johnny Farango wrote: »

I can't wait till Jack O'Donoghue progresses and we can go with O'Mahoney, O'Donoghue and Stander... O'Brien to explode off the bench (slapping lads in the ribs on the way)

I can't wait until Jake Heenan becomes IQ and makes Irish 7 jersey his -can go with backrow of John Muldoon, Heenan and Sean O'Brien.. With the Carlow Sean O'Brien to explode off the bench...

(am I doing this right? :P)

errlloyd

Ulster can't wait till 3 currently unknown academy prospects mature and we can go with G.Adams, I.Paisley and M.McGuinness, with a car full of explosives ready to explode on the bench....

Or something.

jacothelad

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Regardless of where Zebo was, it was a hell of a pass from Sexton to Trimble. Amsolutely pin point off his left hand across 15 metres.

If Trimble had immediately fired a pass back inside to Zebo it might have moved James inside. A quick one - two - one back to Trimble a la BOD type play.

Deleted User wrote: »

mass

They have about the same mass. (Gilroy and McFadden) McFadden is / was a better defender I would surmise but Gilroy is better at that than the credit - or lack of it - that he receives.

molloyjh wrote: »

Being good at Pro12 level and being good at international level are very different. Who are the first choice wingers at Ulster at the moment all fit? And with Piutau coming in next season and Trimble still being around who will be first choice next season all fit?

Gilroy is 1st choice winger at Ulster now. Bowe's return may not see ever him back to his best. He has had major injury after major injury since he came back from the Os. Gilroy has also shown in his Ireland games that he is perfectly suited to that level. Earls and Trimble are better. The rest are much of a muchness to be honest. All have different attributes, both positive and negative. One thing Gilroy does well is score which is an important plus point. Zebo also. Gilroy is a quality player. So are others.

flangemeistro wrote: »

I hate to be on about Sextons fitness again but how can Schmidt say Zebo and Earls trained well but he couldn't risk them when travelling to France yet his out half is clearly wincing in discomfort next to him while wearing a chest support?
I fear that with Sextons history in France and not being 100% that Danty will target him and we won't see him for a few after Saturday.
Jackson can't be that far off the pace that we have to keep risking Sextons career.

Sexton at 100% is one of the best 3 or 4 10s in Europe. Jackson is a bit off that pedestal so far. As someone pointed out, at Jackson's current age. Sexton hadn't even been capped and wasn't No.1 in Leinster. No one (yes, it's 2 words IBF ) knows if Jackson will continue to improve. Sexton had the good fortune to be at a side that had great coaching staff and great players around him which helped develop his game. Jackson does not have that luck - maybe until now. particularly his laughably titled 'kicking coach.' Playing with Paul Marshall certainly would keep a 10's reflexes sharp. Have you ever noticed that no birds fly over the pitch at the ironically named Ravenhill when Paul is playing. Birds are smart. They know where the danger lies.....

Quint2010 wrote: »

SOB and Stander very similar players. What differing roles will each have?

Doing extra tackling to cover.....:D

swiwi_

Given the injury situation, it strikes me that the team chosen is eminently sensible. Anything else would be a risk, a risk that seems unnecessary given the state of French performances in recent times.

Don't really have anything else to add, bring on Saturday.

Pink Fairy

Neil3030 wrote: »

I can't wait until VdF establishes himself in the Ireland setup and we can see a backrow of SOB, VdF, Heaslip, with Stander to come exploding off the bench.

By the time VDF establishes himself Heaslip will be retired

stephen_n

Bazzo wrote: »

McFadden being in the team is completely unsurprising since he was called in to the squad.

I don't think that means there's anything wrong with thinking he shouldn't be ahead of players like Gilroy, Healy or even Scholes. He's what 4th? 5th? choice at Leinster when everybody is available and he hasn't been playing great this season, not to mention he's had some issues with discipline on the field.

Since when? Do you have anything to back that up other than a preconceived bias?

Hagz

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Actually, I just watched it back there and what happened was the doctor and the coach are talking to the kid and the doctor is asking him HIA questions. The ref hears this and says no, there's no HIA questions allowed. The doctor starts saying it's his medical right/obligation to ask these questions and the ref says if you think it's a head injury that's it, he's off.

Obviously I've no idea about the rules at that level but it sounds like the ref has it spot on?

Doctor says its in his directives to ask those questions. It seemed the kid got a cut on his head and because its in his directives the medic asked him HIA questions. The ref hearing these questions assumed there were suspicions of a concussion and ordered the kid off. The medics were adamant that he didn't have a concussion but I think at that point the ref probably felt like he had no choice but to stick to his original decision. Feel bad for the kid. Works all year to play in the SCT and has it cut short because of a misinterpretation.

wp_rathead

stephen_n wrote: »

Since when? Do you have anything to back that up other than a preconceived bias?

Nacewa and Dave Kearney seem be first choice for Leinster
Then Ringrose and Kirchner (assuming Fitzgerald and Te'o are Centre)
So 5th sounds about right