Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread V

The Rape of Lucretia

swiwi_ wrote: »

What I would chuck out for the next game anyway from 9 to 15 and 21 to 23

Murray, Sexton, Earls, McCloskey, Henshaw, Zebo, Payne

Marmion, Jackson, (if only Fitzgerald was fit - not really sure for the 23 shirt, maybe Gilroy deserves a shot again...)

If going with your backline, probably Rob on the bench is the sensible option.

awec

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

If going with your backline, probably Rob on the bench is the sensible option.

Sure he's not versatile enough, can't be having lads on the bench who can't play two or three positions.

AbusesToilets

swiwi_ wrote: »

What I would chuck out for the next game anyway from 9 to 15 and 21 to 23

Murray, Sexton, Earls, McCloskey, Henshaw, Zebo, Payne

Marmion, Jackson, (if only Fitzgerald was fit - not really sure for the 23 shirt, maybe Gilroy deserves a shot again...)

I'd swap Henshaw and Payne, today showed how critical Payne is to our defense, plus that would maintain a provincial partnership.

awec

swiwi_ wrote: »

What I would chuck out for the next game anyway from 9 to 15 and 21 to 23

Murray, Sexton, Earls, McCloskey, Henshaw, Zebo, Payne

Marmion, Jackson, (if only Fitzgerald was fit - not really sure for the 23 shirt, maybe Gilroy deserves a shot again...)

Unfortuntaely swiwi I have as much chance of being picked for Ireland as Gilroy does.

There is no way too that the two Kearneys and Trimble will be dropped, and I genuinely would not be surprised to see Schmidt stick with McFadden.

aimee1

awec wrote: »

Unfortuntaely swiwi I have as much chance of being picked for Ireland as Gilroy does.

There is no way too that the two Kearneys and Trimble will be dropped, and I genuinely would not be surprised to see Schmidt stick with McFadden.

DK out for some time according to JS

The Rape of Lucretia

awec wrote: »

would not be surprised to see Schmidt stick with McFadden.

Assuming Earlsie and Zebo will be fit again, he probably wont. Disappointing to his fans here who might say he should hang on anyway, but unlikely. If they arent back though, McFadden could start in Twick. Word seems to be Dave is out.

slingerz

When does Schmidt get the criticism? Gilroy/Healy all better claims than McFadden. Not to mention McCloskey. With the prospect of winning the tournament gone the shrewd choice would be to blood McCloskey, Jackson, Marmion, Dillane and see how they go

The Rape of Lucretia

slingerz wrote: »

When does Schmidt get the criticism? Gilroy/Healy all better claims than McFadden. Not to mention McCloskey.

They dont have better 'claims'. There are no claims. 'Form' also is a red herring people trot out. This is not international rugby of old, where a few good games or showy displays for your club or province got you noticed and gave you a 'claim' to a starting international place - and amateur, or amateurish coaches and selectors (remember them : 5 of them !) would roll the dice on form players, hope they were up to international level, and that a team performance would gel and resutl. In many cases, players would have gotten their 'call-up' (wow, all these archaic terms) and been given 'a run'.

But that is the past. Form today, over a period, brings you into the extended squad. For training sessions over a year or more. Then maybe the restricted squad and some time in a minnow summer game, off the bench in the Autumn, or against the minnow in the AIs. Then, if you are still in form for your club, have done well in the minor trial games, and are fully up to speed and have the teams systems down pat in training, if an opening comes, you might get your chance. Flinging in the likes of Healy, Ringrose, FVdF, etc, is just the height of fancy in modern professional international rugby.
Much of the chit-chat is still in the amateur era.

Todd Toddington III

swiwi_ wrote:

What I would chuck out for the next game anyway from 9 to 15 and 21 to 23

swiwi_ wrote:

Murray, Sexton, Earls, McCloskey, Henshaw, Zebo, Payne

swiwi_ wrote:

Marmion, Jackson, (if only Fitzgerald was fit - not really sure for the 23 shirt, maybe Gilroy deserves a shot again...)

I like your selection. The fact that your a "foreigner" and a kiwi makes it more right ha!!

Mahatma Geansai

Christ that was awfully depressing.

We are beginning to look like we are more conservative in selection and tactics now than we ever were under Kidney.

I believe that Schmidt is under huge pressure from the IRFU to keep the money coming in. This pressure is causing him to trust the lads he knows when push comes to shove and to take a low-risk approach. We are a very well drilled side, but the Joe Schmidt who wanted Leinster to be the best passing side in Europe is nowhere to be seen.

The IRFU don't want a side that plays good rugby and develops. They want a side that guarantees the bottom line year on year.

aimee1

Murray kinsella says SoB is a hamstring injury and DK will be out for some time with AC joint injury

wp_rathead

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

Christ that was awfully depressing.

We are beginning to look like we are more conservative in selection and tactics now than we ever were under Kidney.

I believe that Schmidt is under huge pressure from the IRFU to keep the money coming in. This pressure is causing him to trust the lads he knows when push comes to shove and to take a low-risk approach. We are a very well drilled side, but the Joe Schmidt who wanted Leinster to be the best passing side in Europe is nowhere to be seen.

The IRFU don't want a side that plays good rugby and develops. They want a side that guarantees the bottom line year on year.

I don't think that is true MG

slingerz

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

They dont have better 'claims'. There are no claims. 'Form' also is a red herring people trot out. This is not international rugby of old, where a few good games or showy displays for your club or province got you noticed and gave you a 'claim' to a starting international place - and amateur, or amateurish coaches and selectors (remember them : 5 of them !) would roll the dice on form players, hope they were up to international level, and that a team performance would gel and resutl. In many cases, players would have gotten their 'call-up' (wow, all these archaic terms) and been given 'a run'.

But that is the past. Form today, over a period, brings you into the extended squad. For training sessions over a year or more. Then maybe the restricted squad and some time in a minnow summer game, off the bench in the Autumn, or against the minnow in the AIs. Then, if you are still in form for your club, have done well in the minor trial games, and are fully up to speed and have the teams systems down pat in training, if an opening comes, you might get your chance. Flinging in the likes of Healy, Ringrose, FVdF, etc, is just the height of fancy in modern professional international rugby.
Much of the chit-chat is still in the amateur era.

That's pure rubbish in fairness. Do you reckon the players are so stupid that they couldn't get to grips with these 'systems'?? Not that the 'systems' are pulling up trees eithrr

case885

The Rape of Lucretia wrote:

But that is the past. Form today, over a period, brings you into the extended squad. For training sessions over a year or more. Then maybe the restricted squad and some time in a minnow summer game, off the bench in the Autumn, or against the minnow in the AIs. Then, if you are still in form for your club, have done well in the minor trial games, and are fully up to speed and have the teams systems down pat in training, if an opening comes, you might get your chance. Flinging in the likes of Healy, Ringrose, FVdF, etc, is just the height of fancy in modern professional international rugby. Much of the chit-chat is still in the amateur era.

You seemed to forget stander who proves your theory to be wrong.
He was involved in one training camp and started on his debut in a 6N game.
McCloskey like stander deserves a chance to showcase his talent on the international stage, henshaw moving to fullback would be the best option imo.

bilston

The centres aren't changing. Payne was very good today. He hit some hard lines and picked some nice angles as well, but defensively he was outstanding. Look like all Ulster fans I believe he is a better FB but I can see why he fits the bill for Ireland at 13. And while Robbie made a mistake for the try he was good apart from that. That is pretty much the first tackle I've seen him miss and even then he slipped.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Would Stander have made his debut so soon if POM, SOB, Henderson and Henry were all fit last week?

He's done well and it seems he has made the step up to international rugby almost seamlessly but it's a different situation he was introduced in. To play McCloskey you're talking about dropping someone who is playing well just for the sake of it.

Mahatma Geansai

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Would Stander have made his debut so soon if POM, SOB, Henderson and Henry were all fit last week?

He's done well and it seems he has made the step up to international rugby almost seamlessly but it's a different situation he was introduced in. To play McCloskey you're talking about dropping someone who is playing well just for the sake of it.

Rob Kearney isn't playing well.

thomond2006

With the Championship gone Ireland must make the most of this and introduce some new players to international rugby. Players that won't be around in 1-2 years shouldn't be used bar an injury crisis. Eoin Reddan is 35 and done. He is not that much better than other options available. Mike McCarthy had a good gane today but is 34 and coming to the end of his career. Nathan White is 34. England in Twickenham is going to be tough regardless of who we play. We should beat Scotland and Italy regardless of who we play. I'm not advocating changing 7 or 8 players but I'd like to see how new faces can integrate to the incumbents.

Let's give the management the benefit of the doubt until the selections are made. It's the first time under Schmidt that Ireland have been 'out' of the Six Nations. He may well use new players, aside from those forced due to injury.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

Rob Kearney isn't playing well.

You want McCloskey to play FB?

Thelomen Toblackai

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

You want McCloskey to play FB?

Jesus people really want him on the pitch ! Wouldn't be surprised if he turned up as a goalpost at this rate...

sydthebeat

thomond2006 wrote: »

With the Championship gone Ireland must make the most of this and introduce some new players to international rugby. Players that won't be around in 1-2 years shouldn't be used bar an injury crisis. Eoin Reddan is 35 and done. He is not that much better than other options available. Mike McCarthy had a good gane today but is 34 and coming to the end of his career. Nathan White is 34. England in Twickenham is going to be tough regardless of who we play. We should beat Scotland and Italy regardless of who we play. I'm not advocating changing 7 or 8 players but I'd like to see how new faces can integrate to the incumbents.

Let's give the management the benefit of the doubt until the selections are made. It's the first time under Schmidt that Ireland have been 'out' of the Six Nations. He may well use new players, aside from those forced due to injury.

would you take last place if we were to give debuts to say, 6 players before the end of the competition?

aimee1

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

Rob Kearney isn't playing well.

6 carries for over 50 metres and made a few half breaks. Dont think its fair to say he isnt playing well.

He isnt the problem. He came into the line a few times today and was those times we looked most likely to get the decisive scores

case885

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote:

You want McCloskey to play FB?

Pretty obvious no? McCloskey in and henshaw to 15.
Olding is a good shout for the bench also, vastly superior player to McFadden.

case885

sydthebeat wrote:

would you take last place if we were to give debuts to say, 6 players before the end of the competition?

Who are the 6 players? No one is advocating that.
Dillane and McCloskey are two uncapped players who should see game time and they won't be the reason if we finish last.

thomond2006

sydthebeat wrote: »

would you take last place if we were to give debuts to say, 6 players before the end of the competition?

Strange question (which 6 players?) but on balance: Yes. The placing is irrelevant to me now.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

case885 wrote: »

Pretty obvious no? McCloskey in and henshaw to 15.
Olding is a good shout for the bench also, vastly superior player to McFadden.

You're missing the point of what my original post was about.

JPNelsforearm

thomond2006 wrote: »

Strange question (which 6 players?) but on balance: Yes. The placing is irrelevant to me now.

Exactly, who gives a ****.

jm08

aimee1 wrote: »

6 carries for over 50 metres and made a few half breaks. Dont think its fair to say he isnt playing well.

He isnt the problem. He came into the line a few times today and was those times we looked most likely to get the decisive scores

Last week, 7 linebreaks. This week, 0.

aimee1

jm08 wrote: »

Last week, 7 linebreaks. This week, 0.

Thats not down to RK. He came into the line 2-3 times today and very nearly got clear a few times. He tried one offload when it wasnt on . Our biggest issues in attack to me seem to be in the centres. It is a manufactured midfield and McCloskey needs to be given a go there. If that means Henshaw gets a go at full back with an eye on the future then it needs to happen.

jm08

aimee1 wrote: »

Thats not down to RK. He came into the line 2-3 times today and very nearly got clear a few times. He tried one offload when it wasnt on . Our biggest issues in attack to me seem to be in the centres. It is a manufactured midfield and McCloskey needs to be given a go there. If that means Henshaw gets a go at full back with an eye on the future then it needs to happen.

Zebo last week: 1 clean Breaks. 4 Defenders beaten.
Kearney this week: 0 Clean Breaks. 0 Defenders beaten.

The same centre partnership last week v. Wales.

Billysays no

aimee1 wrote: »

RK and very nearly.

Time moves on. He is no longer very nearly. He is disappointing

aimee1

jm08 wrote: »

Zebo last week: 1 clean Breaks. 4 Defenders beaten.
Kearney this week: 0 Clean Breaks. 0 Defenders beaten.

The same centre partnership last week v. Wales.

different games with different styles from opponent. Doesnt reflect on a player this week.

aimee1

Billysays no wrote: »

Time moves on. He is no longer very nearly. He is disappointing

He was our only player to look like making a break. Taking the ball at pace. Several others dropped the ball multiple times.

CMOTDibbler

jm08 wrote: »

Zebo last week: 1 clean Breaks. 4 Defenders beaten.
Kearney this week: 0 Clean Breaks. 0 Defenders beaten.

The same centre partnership last week v. Wales.

Zebo is injured. It's kind of irrelevant what he did in a different game.

Billysays no

aimee1 wrote: »

He was our only player to look like making a break. Taking the ball at pace. Several others dropped the ball multiple times.

Wow. So he looked like he could make a break or did he in fact make a break. I do have poor memory but am searching archives to remember rob Kearney as he used to be

Pink Fairy

aimee1 wrote: »

different games with different styles from opponent. Doesnt reflect on a player this week.

*bookmarked*

Rightwing

Poor game devoid of any quality.

The pressure mounts on Joe. His career is on s downward spiral unless he acts promptly. He needs to ring Cotter and be reminded of what made him successful @ Clermont.

Noves must be laughing tonight. A shambolic French team pulled off a heroic result, beating Ireland by a point. Laughable if nothing else.

The Black Stags

Just pointing out - we are currently down one defence coach so Joe is having to take on a lot more work than he normally would.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

The Black Stags wrote: »

Just pointing out - we are currently down one defence coach so Joe is having to take on a lot more work than he normally would.

And some would argue our defence is the only part of our game still functioning well.

AbusesToilets

sydthebeat wrote: »

would you take last place if we were to give debuts to say, 6 players before the end of the competition?

2nd place is as good as last. If you're not in a position to win it, everything else is just rearranging deck chairs at that point.

English Lurker

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

They dont have better 'claims'. There are no claims. 'Form' also is a red herring people trot out. This is not international rugby of old, where a few good games or showy displays for your club or province got you noticed and gave you a 'claim' to a starting international place - and amateur, or amateurish coaches and selectors (remember them : 5 of them !) would roll the dice on form players, hope they were up to international level, and that a team performance would gel and resutl. In many cases, players would have gotten their 'call-up' (wow, all these archaic terms) and been given 'a run'.

But that is the past. Form today, over a period, brings you into the extended squad. For training sessions over a year or more. Then maybe the restricted squad and some time in a minnow summer game, off the bench in the Autumn, or against the minnow in the AIs. Then, if you are still in form for your club, have done well in the minor trial games, and are fully up to speed and have the teams systems down pat in training, if an opening comes, you might get your chance. Flinging in the likes of Healy, Ringrose, FVdF, etc, is just the height of fancy in modern professional international rugby.
Much of the chit-chat is still in the amateur era.

Noves had six new caps in his match day 23 on the first day. Jones had three, none of whom had been in the EPS before; Lancaster capped I honestly can't remember how many. Gatland had none, but that's largely because he's probably capped more teenagers than any other man out there. New Zealand rocked up to the World Cup with two brand new wingers in Naholo and Milner-Skudder. I wish I had time to sketch out the point fully, but it really isn't unusual to see players given the nod for big internationals in only their first or second international window spent with the squad.

Not to say the slow and measured approach is wrong. It isn't. You can see plenty of coaches going for it from time to time, particularly with younger players. But neither is plucking out a highly talented player in form, giving him a crash course, and saying "Good luck, we're all counting on you", wrong or amateur or a flight of fancy or anything like that either. Or all the approaches in between. They're all right when they work, wrong when they don't; and sometimes they work and sometimes they don't.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

And some would argue our defence is the only part of our game still functioning well.

Defence is the easiest part to function well, in my opinion.

Developing a playing style that allows you to score tries against a well-drilled defence would be a much harder task.

Dubron

For England:

1. McGrath
2. Best
3. Ross
4. Ryan
5. Toner
6. Stander
7. Ruddock
8. Heaslip
9. Murray
10. Sexton
11. Earls
12. Henshaw
13. Payne
14. Trimble
15. Kearney

16. Cronin
17. Cronin
18. Furlong
19. Dillane
20. TOD
21. Marmion
22. Jackson
23. Zebo

I know it's time to try a few guys out, but getting a hiding away to England wont help any of the young players


For Italy/Scotland:

1. Cronin
2. Best
3. Furlong
4. Dillane
5. Toner
6. Stander
7. VDF
8. Heaslip
9. Murray
10. Jackson
11. Earls
12. McCloskey
13. Henshaw
14. Gilroy
15. Payne

16. Cronin
17. Buckley
18. White
19. Ryan
20. Ruddock
21. Marmion
22. Sexton
23. Zebo/Olding

That 23 would beat Italy and give Scotland a right good game which I'd still expect us to win narrowly, being at home. Decent mixture of youth and experience and everybody is playing in their natural positions. The starting 15 are all guys who will have been in the squad for the guts of what, 2 months at that stage? They should all know the systems etc. well enough by then!

Utah_Saint

I don't expect to see a huge change in the squad unless forced by injury. The fact seeding's are decided this year makes it more likely nothing will change.

If players like McC, Gilroy and Jackson are brought in without injuries forcing it. It would almost be like admitting the original selections were wrong, no coach would want that so I expect a fairly static selection rest of 6n

aimee1

Billysays no wrote: »

Wow. So he looked like he could make a break or did he in fact make a break. I do have poor memory but am searching archives to remember rob Kearney as he used to be

If you watched the game you will have noticed Kearney coming into the line in similar fashion to leinster under JS. People bemoaned ireland not playing like leinster under JS but there has been glimpses of this the past two weeks. It just hasnt worked out for us as well as it could have.

Ireland did the donkey work to get good field position but a number of poor things such as overthrown lineout, dropping the ball numerous times and poor protection at rucks killed momentum and gave turnovers and penalties

The team doesnt require wholesale change or a new approach tactics wise. It needs a few new faces and some minor tactical changes. I wouldn't expect much change for england but for the two home games McCloskey, Dillane, Furlong, Marmion, Jackson must get meaningful gametime. Two week* lead in after the england game. Id also like to see Henshaw get a go at 15 with a view to the future.

*know players have time off but still plenty of time to implement a few new faces for Italy.

Pink Fairy

The Black Stags wrote: »

Just pointing out - we are currently down one defence coach so Joe is having to take on a lot more work than he normally would.

Yeah, its such a pity that a certain defence coach just walked away and gave no notice at all he was leaving

sydthebeat

AbusesToilets wrote: »

2nd place is as good as last. If you're not in a position to win it, everything else is just rearranging deck chairs at that point.

But you see that's COMPLETELY WRONG.

in a rwc selection year.... Second absolutely is not the same as last.

After yesterday, and if we get beat by England, we will be sitting in 8th position. A loss to Scotland will improve their rankings and they will be challenging us for that spot.

With the games we have coming up in the summer and Autumn.... We could quite easily end up 3rd seed in rwc 2016, especially if we experiment now

Beating England is a real goal now

irishbucsfan

Pink Fairy wrote: »

Yeah, its such a pity that a certain defence coach just walked away and gave no notice at all he was leaving

It's also not a lot more than he normally would given he did it the entire time he was at Leinster. Not a valid excuse.

Scythica

sydthebeat wrote: »

But you see that's COMPLETELY WRONG.

in a rwc selection year.... Second absolutely is not the same as last.

After yesterday, and if we get beat by England, we will be sitting in 8th position. A loss to Scotland will improve their rankings and they will be challenging us for that spot.

With the games we have coming up in the summer and Autumn.... We could quite easily end up 3rd seed in rwc 2016, especially if we experiment now

Beating England is a real goal now

Without being all doom and gloom...

Does the seedings matter that much?

We got no further last year having a good seeding. And Eng had a good seeding for the last one... didn't help.

Would 'dropping' to the 3rd rank seed but getting a team into a RWC cycle (which Schmidt could take the idea way - fingers crossed) be such a bad idea?

I agree though, the 6N is the breadwinner and I think the IRFU will pressure Schmidt for results. Living in England the amount of abuse I get when Ireland don't win is insane, hopefully we get a few people back from injuries before Eng match!

Scythica

Apologies for the double post but:

Who all are we expecting to be back in contention by the Eng game?