Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread V

flangemeistro

flangemeistro wrote: »

How much more credit does Schmidt have left in the bank after the back to back 6 nations,

How long more can he blame injuries while he refuses to play on form talent like McCloskey, Ringrose, Healy, O'Halloran and Gilroy.

How long more do we need to hear about this "system" that players have to be familiar with, a broken, Conservative, predictable and found out system?

How many more times are they going to deny the seriousness of Sextons head injuries because they don't trust his replacements.

How long more is Schmidt going to field players out of their natural positions, Henshaw, Payne, Zebo, Earls, Stander, Madigan (Mr Versatility) .

How many more players are going to be rushed back from injury only to see them get more seriously injured all because Schmidt hasn't developed strength in depth.

You can call me negative, you can call me pessimistic but I could see this coming after the Argentina game when neither Schmidt or any of the coaching team took responsibility for the loss but instead took the easy option and blamed injuries.

Schmidts mantra used to be that he had no time for sentiment, well I think it's time all Irish fans took a leaf out of his book and judged Schmidt on a game to game basis and stopped constantly referring to the back to back 6 nations that might I add neither of we won comfortably or convincingly.
In my eyes he's used up all that credit and we need to start demanding more and stop taking the lazy "In Joe we trust" stance.

I've no doubt we'll see a shake up against England including a McCloskey start and a few more caps called into camp but that's too little too late and it's purely because Schmidts 3 in a row along with his ego has been left in tatters now so instead of being afraid to lose like the last two games he'll dare to win.

I'm disappointed, I'm frustrated, I'm angry but most of all I'm realistic.
I just wish the Schmidtlings would take the blinkers off.

"I just wish the Schmidtlings would take the blinkers off". I mean, you give out on here a few weeks back because you think people are being dismissive, and then you write something like this.

Schmidt has loads of credit in the bank, and rightly so. He can be our Gatland if he wants, no one else in coaching terms comes within an arses roar of him.

wittycynic

Criticism is healthy, and to be welcomed, provided it is grounded in some sort of rationality. I'm glad Joe's honeymoon period is over, as during his first two seasons anyone who so much as uttered a syllable in opposition of his tactics or selections was shouted down immediately.

We have to face up to the fact that, from the World Cup Warm-Up games last year onward, we have been terribly blunt in attack. From that point, other than our group game against France, who were very poorly coached, we have had pretty significant difficulties getting over the try line. We have also shipped a huge number of injuries.

From this two probabilities can be reasonably inferred. Other coaches have successfully learnt how to defend against Joe's attacking plan, and Joe's style of play is extremely attritional and leads to a higher rate of injuries and fatigue amongst players, leaving us short on personnel and spent in the latter portions of games.

Joe is a superb coach and Ireland is significantly better off for his involvement, but something is going to have to change in our approach.

aimee1

Basil3 wrote: »

Didn't they say the seedings for the next RWC will be much closer to the tournament this time?

No japan want it this year to sell tickets because the Olympics are in 2020.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Billysays no wrote: »

I'm really sorry but the Olding stuff is really grating on my head. And you may ask why? Isnt he a great player? And yes he is a great player. But he's been fecking injured for like forever. He comes back and plays one game and is now an international fullback. I do have my own strange opinions but Olding is not going to be one of them. Like you have Tiernan who has been paying a stormer at Connacht all season but Olding deserves it on a comeback performance? And in any case it doesnt matter RK, no matter how rubbish he is, will remain fullback. But Olding? Really????? Heavens

Olding has been in the Ireland set up before. It makes perfect sense that he'd be considered for the squad on his return from injury. I'm sure he's played at least 3 games also, not one.

aimee1

wittycynic wrote: »

Criticism is healthy, and to be welcomed, provided it is grounded in some sort of rationality. I'm glad Joe's honeymoon period is over, as during his first two seasons anyone who so much as uttered a syllable in opposition of his tactics or selections was shouted down immediately.

We have to face up to the fact that, from the World Cup Warm-Up games last year onward, we have been terribly blunt in attack. After from our group game against France, who were very poorly coached, we have had pretty significant difficulties getting over the try line. We have also shipped a huge number of injuries.

From this two probabilities can be reasonably inferred. Other coaches have successfully learnt how to defend against Joe's attacking plan, and Joe's style of play is extremely attritional and leads to a higher rate of injuries and fatigue amongst players, leaving us short on personnel and spent in the latter portions of games.

Joe is a superb coach and Ireland is significantly better off for his involvement, but something is going to have to change in our approach.

Several of the injured players got injured playing for the provinces (Henderson, Ross, Healy)

RK, Fitz got injured in training, it happens from time to time

Zebo got injured making a break on the left wing against wales IIRC

Earls got concussed running into furlongs hip

SOB got injured with zero contact

McCarthy clashed heads with a team mate making a tackle

DK got hurt after a monster tackle as Ireland tried to go wide.

Not exactly a list of injuries from lads running at walls.

wittycynic

aimee1 wrote: »

Several of the injured players got injured playing for the provinces (Henderson, Ross, Healy)

RK, Fitz got injured in training, it happens from time to time

Zebo got injured making a break on the left wing against wales IIRC

Earls got concussed running into furlongs hip

SOB got injured with zero contact

McCarthy clashed heads with a team mate making a tackle

DK got hurt after a monster tackle as Ireland tried to go wide.

Not exactly a list of injuries from lads running at walls.

My hamstring might go sprinting up the line on the 70th minute of a game. But the reason it went wasn't that sprint in isolation. It was the 70 minutes of stress that I had put it under in the lead up to that last sprint that, ultimately, primed it to go.

aimee1

wittycynic wrote: »

My hamstring might go sprinting up the line on the 70th minute of a game. But the reason it went wasn't that sprint in isolation. It was the 70 minutes of stress that I had put it under in the lead up to that last sprint that, ultimately, primed it to go.

SOB went off after 20 minutes, having already missed the game the previous week with a hamstring injury [was it the same one?]. He hadnt played a game for a few weeks either.

BoardsMember

We seem to be playing against sides that are bigger than us now in nearly every test, yet our primary approach is to truck it up looking for contact. Recycle and repeat. And we wonder why we tire towards the ends of the games. 50+ minutes in each game with no points? Something is wrong with what we're trying to do.

Our back three are picked very much on their defensive qualities. We pose little threat to the opposition - they know what they have to do to stop us scoring tries, and it is not that complicated. How many coaches would have McFadden in the mix with a player like Ringrose available? I just don't buy the "too young" line, players like he are picked for other countries at his age, why not us? I'm not into wholesale changes and building for the future, but I don't think the balance is right now when it comes to selection.

I would give RK a break and put McCloskey in at 12, with Henshaw to full back. I'd also give Sexton a break, and put Jackson in. We're unlikely to beat England in Twickenham, give them game time, freshen things up. The English game is going to be ridiculously physical. I also think that we need Ruddock to start in Twickenham, and hopefully Ross and Healy will be back.

BoardsMember

aimee1 wrote: »

SOB went off after 20 minutes, having already missed the game the previous week with a hamstring injury [was it the same one?]. He hadnt played a game for a few weeks either.

SOB is just too big, he's always getting injured. Just like Healy, Ferris etc these are guys who are simply way bigger than they were designed to be. It compromises flexibility, so you have injuries like pulled muscles with elite athletes which should not really happen too often, it also compromises joints/ligaments etc. It just wasn't meant to be.

Billysays no

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Olding has been in the Ireland set up before. It makes perfect sense that he'd be considered for the squad on his return from injury. I'm sure he's played at least 3 games also, not one.

That is such a mental opinion it tickles me :-). A player who has played one game after nearly a year off is ready for the 15 slot. Instead you have a dude playing the best fullback rugby in the country but because Olding has being in the Irish setup? Are you for real. Your argument has just justified the double keraney, mcfadden, madigan argument. I am out of here. Even in the morning you make no sense

Clegg

BoardsMember wrote: »

SOB is just too big, he's always getting injured. Just like Healy, Ferris etc these are guys who are simply way bigger than they were designed to be. It compromises flexibility, so you have injuries like pulled muscles with elite athletes which should not really happen too often, it also compromises joints/ligaments etc. It just wasn't meant to be.

Jerry Flannery is the poster boy for this.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Billysays no wrote: »

That is such a mental opinion it tickles me :-). A player who has played one game after nearly a year off is ready for the 15 slot. Instead you have a dude playing the best fullback rugby in the country but because Olding has being in the Irish setup? Are you for real. Your argument has just justified the double keraney, mcfadden, madigan argument. I am out of here. Even in the morning you make no sense

I said it wasn't the craziest idea that Olding be considered for the squad. I didn't say he should be FB or starting or even in the match day 23.

Maybe if you read what posts actually say rather than what you want them to say you might not find yourself so annoyed that you feel the need to attack posters rather than posts.

Buer

Billysays no wrote: »

A player who has played one game after nearly a year off

You obviously don't even bother to read what is posted and just continue on with your own opinions.

BoardsMember

BoardsMember wrote: »

SOB is just too big, he's always getting injured. Just like Healy, Ferris etc these are guys who are simply way bigger than they were designed to be. It compromises flexibility, so you have injuries like pulled muscles with elite athletes which should not really happen too often, it also compromises joints/ligaments etc. It just wasn't meant to be.

Clegg wrote: »

Jerry Flannery is the poster boy for this.

Have you guys gotten in touch with the highly experienced strength and conditioning coaches working with the provinces with these insights? They may not be aware of this, good that you were able to pick this up just from looking at them, the guys who are preparing their training and working with them daily have clearly missed something.

awec

Deleted User wrote: »

Have you guys gotten in touch with the highly experienced strength and conditioning coaches working with the provinces with these insights? They may not be aware of this, good that you were able to pick this up just from looking at them, the guys who are preparing their training and working with them daily have clearly missed something.

O'Brien has managed 35 games in since the 13/14 season (this is Leinster and Ireland and including appearances from the bench).

Ok, you might think that he gets rested a lot, but in the same period Heaslip has played 70. Twice as many.

Do you think SOB is just incredibly unlucky?

bilston

Billysays no wrote: »

That is such a mental opinion it tickles me :-). A player who has played one game after nearly a year off is ready for the 15 slot. Instead you have a dude playing the best fullback rugby in the country but because Olding has being in the Irish setup? Are you for real. Your argument has just justified the double keraney, mcfadden, madigan argument. I am out of here. Even in the morning you make no sense

I suggested him as a bench option not as the starting FB. I assume you imagined that?

Plus as others have pointed out he has played 3 games not 1, not that is a huge difference, but I'm pointing it out because you keep pedalling this 1 game thing.

awec

awec wrote: »

O'Brien has managed 35 games in since the 13/14 season (this is Leinster and Ireland and including appearances from the bench).

Ok, you might think that he gets rested a lot, but in the same period Heaslip has played 70. Twice as many.

Do you think SOB is just incredibly unlucky?

Sean O'Brien had full re constructive surgery on his shoulder. He got two bad infections in same shoulder following surgery.

I think he is extremely unlucky.

And using Heaslip as the other side of the equation is disingenuous. He is a freak of the modern game that no one equals in robustness.

Ireland's play style is not getting people injured. It's a laughable suggestion.

Buer

awec wrote: »

O'Brien has managed 35 games in since the 13/14 season (this is Leinster and Ireland and including appearances from the bench).

Ok, you might think that he gets rested a lot, but in the same period Heaslip has played 70. Twice as many.

Do you think SOB is just incredibly unlucky?

It could be one of a hundred things. There could be an underlying issue in his body. He could be genetically pre-disposed to issues. We don't have a clue.

It's complete pie in the sky stuff to simply say something along the lines of "I reckon he's getting injured because he's carrying more weight than he should". Sure props would be injured half of their lives in that case. Mike McCarthy should never get out of the treatment room.

Jerry Flannery had chronic issues with his calf which forced him to retire. He wasn't even 16 stone. SOB is 107kg and 6'2" which is completely normal for a back row player. Someone like Pocock would be significantly heavier.

thomond2006

As much as Sexton won't like it, should he be moved out of the 10 channel in defence? He's gotten hurt in his last three internationals now. He's a rock in defence but he is no use if he keeps getting knocks. He needs to be protected from unnecessary contact.

Billysays no

bilston wrote: »

I suggested him as a bench option not as the starting FB. I assume you imagined that?

Plus as others have pointed out he has played 3 games not 1, not that is a huge difference, but I'm pointing it out because you keep pedalling this 1 game thing.

If it were based on a merit system would you not agree that Tiernan merits at least the bench, and after this weekend maybe a start in front of stuart?

bilston

Billysays no wrote: »

If it were based on a merit system would you not agree that Tiernan merits at least the bench, and after this weekend maybe a start in front of stuart?

He certainly took his try well on Thursday night.

Neither player will be selected though.

weareallmarks

O'Brien has a different genetic makeup to heaslip which has something to do with it. the big issue is the overloading of tendons and ligaments with muscle mass. which is needed for rugby at that level. look at healy. he is a beast, but it appears his body cant handle the mass. heaslip is built better for rugby that the 2 previous mentioned.

alot of doom and gloom after the weekend. some warranted but some not. we dont need a full change in the squad. certainly bring mclusky up to the bench and maybe bring him on after 60 and move payne back to fb. that would be my idea. its a difficult one because if you bring someone in too early and it goes badly, then they may end up battered psychologically like paddy jackson (who has only recently come back to top form after kidney wrecked him)

bring on the english.

flangemeistro

Buer wrote: »

To wonder "how much more credit" does he have is a quite laughable thought.

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It's a laughable suggestion.

It looks like Laughable is after taking the place of nonsense as the patronising condescending insult from the hateful 8 who think they can look down on everyone from their ivory armchairs.

The bully boy and shouting down style is alive and well in the rugby forum.

captbarnacles

thomond2006 wrote: »

As much as Sexton won't like it, should he be moved out of the 10 channel in defence? He's gotten hurt in his last three internationals now. He's a rock in defence but he is no use if he keeps getting knocks. He needs to be protected from unnecessary contact.

NZ used to do this with Andrew Mehrtens. He would swop with Leon McDonald at full back for defensive plays.

captbarnacles

flangemeistro wrote: »

It looks like Laughable is after taking the place of nonsense as the patronising condescending insult from the hateful 8 who think they can look down on everyone from their ivory armchairs.

The bully boy and shouting down style is alive and well in the rugby forum.

Every time this comes up people provide a list of how the players actually injured themselves and it can rarely be attributed directly to our style of play.

On another note, our style of play is not more physical then the French Top 14 or the Aviva Premiership imo.

flangemeistro

flangemeistro wrote: »

It looks like Laughable is after taking the place of nonsense as the patronising condescending insult from the hateful 8 who think they can look down on everyone from their ivory armchairs.

The bully boy and shouting down style is alive and well in the rugby forum.

Maybe instead we should start being dismissive and condescending to the coaches and players like below:

flangemeistro wrote: »

Is there any leaks coming out of camp yet as to what injury they're going to fabricate for Sexton to cover up his concussion and rule him out of Sundays game or will they do the usual of pulling him in the pre game warm up so Wales won't be prepared for Jackson?

Quint2010

For England-You will see either Zebo/Earls in for Kearney, Ross will probably start for White, Ryan for McCarthy if McCarthy is concussed and Ruddock will start for SOB/TOD. There will be no new caps. This moving Payne to FB and McCloskey coming in at 12 simply won't happen although personally its something i would like to see.

rsh118

The knee and ankle certainly seems to be the weak point for a lot of these players. In SOB's case I feel for him since it has been a variety of things in addition to knee trouble.

Also, I thought we were a conservative nation? Shouldn't we all be calling for a few lads to get minutes off the bench? Whilst I agree that FmcF was a slap with a wet fish to the faces of a lot of other players around the country, it also felt like a panic call up when in a tight spot.

I still think we need a focus on getting our players more competitive at the breakdown so that teams fear trucking it up the middle. Have them diving into rucks all week!

captbarnacles

I thought Payne was brilliant vs France and Wales for that matter and I never understood why he had to be 13 before. We've shipped two tries really because of having a weaker scrum but out wide we've dealt with everything comfortably.

It's hard to see Joe moving Payne anywhere.

aimee1

rsh118 wrote: »

The knee and ankle certainly seems to be the weak point for a lot of these players. In SOB's case I feel for him since it has been a variety of things in addition to knee trouble.

Also, I thought we were a conservative nation? Shouldn't we all be calling for a few lads to get minutes off the bench? Whilst I agree that FmcF was a slap with a wet fish to the faces of a lot of other players around the country, it also felt like a panic call up when in a tight spot.

I still think we need a focus on getting our players more competitive at the breakdown so that teams fear trucking it up the middle. Have them diving into rucks all week!

In the first half we dropped the ball 3-4 times within 10-15m if the tryline.


In the second half on Saturday we coughed up possession in good positions too often. We tried moves but there was far too many inaccuracies which left guys isolated 3-4 times and RK tried an offload which was read by a defender. Our inability to go more then 3-4-5 phases to create space or win a penalty killed us. Also was disappointed in the lack of a maul.

We got into good positions plenty enough to win the game but we just didnt convert. Dont think we need to panic just yet selection wise. A few changes to the 23 and a more accurate performance is required.

wittycynic

Quint2010 wrote: »

For England-You will see either Zebo/Earls in for Kearney, Ross will probably start for White, Ryan for McCarthy if McCarthy is concussed and Ruddock will start for SOB/TOD. There will be no new caps. This moving Payne to FB and McCloskey coming in at 12 simply won't happen although personally its something i would like to see.

I'm all for continuity in the team, and it is true that you cannot hope to build good performances on the back of constantly changing personnel. With that said, Eddie O'Sullivan and Declan Kidney were rightly pilloried at times for consistently selecting players where, arguably, better alternatives existed, on the basis that the incumbents were "experienced" or "knew the system" better.

Jared Payne is a top quality rugby player, but a midfield combination of him and Henshaw has not proved to be incisive in attack. It has been tried, it is defensively robust, but it is not giving us the necessary teeth in going forward. We need to look towards options like McCloskey, Olding, and in time Ringrose, to see whether these players can offer an improvement in offense. It is simply not realistic to continue with the existing centre pairing and yet expect to score more tries. We either make a change there in personnel, or expect more of the same in the coming games.

rsh118

captbarnacles wrote: »

I thought Payne was brilliant vs France and Wales for that matter and I never understood why he had to be 13 before. We've shipped two tries really because of having a weaker scrum but out wide we've dealt with everything comfortably.

It's hard to see Joe moving Payne anywhere.

Have to agree that Payne is a really classy player. I'd not have been the biggest fan initially of him playing 13 for Ulster, but he's been good, and genuinely seems to have an understanding of the game beyond those around him. Will be great to have him and Robbie together in white next year.

flangemeistro

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Maybe instead we should start being dismissive and condescending to the coaches and players like below:

What?!
So are you denying that ever happened?

.ak

flangemeistro wrote: »

It looks like Laughable is after taking the place of nonsense as the patronising condescending insult from the hateful 8 who think they can look down on everyone from their ivory armchairs.

The bully boy and shouting down style is alive and well in the rugby forum.

Stick to discussing the rugby.

Anatom

rsh118 wrote: »

Have to agree that Payne is a really classy player. Will be great to have him and Robbie together in white next year.

I hope you're not too disappointed, unless the Irish team is in white?!

rsh118

Anatom wrote: »

I hope you're not too disappointed, unless the Irish team is in white?!

The away series in South Africa

On a serious note, I think the next couple of years are going to be very frustrating for everyone involved as we bounce around between Henshaw/Payne... Henshaw/Ringrose... McCloskey/Henshaw... McCloskey/Payne... Not a bad decision to have to make.

former total

wittycynic wrote: »

I'm all for continuity in the team, and it is true that you cannot hope to build good performances on the back of constantly changing personnel. With that said, Eddie O'Sullivan and Declan Kidney were rightly pilloried at times for consistently selecting players where, arguably, better alternatives existed, on the basis that the incumbents were "experienced" or "knew the system" better.

Jared Payne is a top quality rugby player, but a midfield combination of him and Henshaw has not proved to be incisive in attack. It has been tried, it is defensively robust, but it is not giving us the necessary teeth in going forward. We need to look towards options like McCloskey, Olding, and in time Ringrose, to see whether these players can offer an improvement in offense. It is simply not realistic to continue with the existing centre pairing and yet expect to score more tries. We either make a change there in personnel, or expect more of the same in the coming games.

I agree the centre partnership has been limited in offence, but I don't think throwing in guys like McCloskey or Ringrose is any solution. Why not, you ask?

1) We're judging the younger guys mainly on Pro12 games, a quantum leap down from a Six Nations test against England in Twickenham. Case in point; Craig Gilroy looked like Julian Savea on Friday night because an inexperienced 10 was kicking the ball directly to him in acres of space. That just won't happen in the 6N, just like McCloskey won't knock over three lads and Ringrose won't burn through the defence. Olding, I have no idea - has he ever played Heineken Cup? We don't even know what position he is.

2) People are saying "let's pick player X and he'll perform better in attack". No, he won't. Joe has his style of play and picks the players to execute that style. Boards posters are essentially arguing the reverse, i.e. pick the players and let them dictate the approach - that just isn't how it works. We have no idea how Ringrose or whoever would perform in Joe's system, but it would be very different from how he performs for Leinster.

So if we want to argue "let's change our style of play", well, that's a different and much longer term proposition.

The Black Stags

Are defence has been outstanding the past two games - no team looked likely to get a try out of us during normal proceedings. Our scrum however is a concern.
I was genuinely in a better place after watching us vs Wales with respect to our ability to attack. We looked like we were making progress in that area.
A lot of the problems in the French match I think were down to how little we trained during the week, all those little inaccuracies cost us. We really weren't very sharp at all.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Anatom wrote: »

I hope you're not too disappointed, unless the Irish team is in white?!

rsh118 wrote: »

The away series in South Africa

South Africa would have to change jersey's in that situation.

Obviously it's Leinster's alternative kit they'll be playing in.

rsh118

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

South Africa would have to change jersey's in that situation.

Obviously it's Leinster's alternative kit they'll be playing in.

Realised that as soon as I sent it. Leinster is so right for him it hurts. Much as I love to close my eyes and imagine the Ulster back line if he signed up north. Like seriously, imagine it?

Then we'd have Leinster supplying the piano shifters and Ulster providing the pianists which would be a change to years gone by...

awec

rsh118 wrote: »

Realised that as soon as I sent it. Leinster is so right for him it hurts. Much as I love to close my eyes and imagine the Ulster back line if he signed up north. Like seriously, imagine it?

Then we'd have Leinster supplying the piano shifters and Ulster providing the pianists which would be a change to years gone by...

Henshaw wouldn't fit in the Ulster backline.

rsh118

awec wrote: »

Henshaw wouldn't fit in the Ulster backline.

As I said in the other thread, that's obviously ignoring the fact that we are obligated at this stage to describe him as 'probably third or fourth choice centre when he arrives' at Ulster.

Also some dribble about him 'having to play his way into the team.'

shootermacg

Joe getting an absolute pounding in the papers, most of these journalists are ex players themselves. I guess reason isn't what the editor is paying for!

rsh118

Errrr, so I've been talking to colleagues in NZ, and they got me thinking about players and body fat percentage.

I bring this up because of how Heaslip has trimmed down and is looking immense and also BoDs trimming down back in the day.

Is there a case to be made for increased incentive to cut weight for some of our players? After all, fat is just bulk that your tired muscles have to drag around for 80 minutes. I may self cut 3kgs many a seasons ago, and rather than losing the ability to break the line with my heft, actually found I was being more effective in my all round game.

Obviously there is a huge difference between me eating fewer kebabs and the top lads, but I wonder is if time to experiment of fitness over weight. Cian Healy could be the poster boy. A 112kg prop who has an excellent all round game thanks to excellent fitness. Thinking aloud here...

sydthebeat

rsh118 wrote: »

Errrr, so I've been talking to colleagues in NZ, and they got me thinking about players and body fat percentage.

I bring this up because of how Heaslip has trimmed down and is looking immense and also BoDs trimming down back in the day.

Is there a case to be made for increased incentive to cut weight for some of our players? After all, fat is just bulk that your tired muscles have to drag around for 80 minutes. I may self cut 3kgs many a seasons ago, and rather than losing the ability to break the line with my heft, actually found I was being more effective in my all round game.

Obviously there is a huge difference between me eating fewer kebabs and the top lads, but I wonder is if time to experiment of fitness over weight. Cian Healy could be the poster boy. A 112kg prop who has an excellent all round game thanks to excellent fitness. Thinking aloud here...

there are experts highly paid to assess all aspects of elite players fitness and conditioning....

it certainly does not come down to a simple "fitness over weight"...nor are they pulling any excess fat around at that level.

rsh118

sydthebeat wrote: »

there are experts highly paid to assess all aspects of elite players fitness and conditioning....

it certainly does not come down to a simple "fitness over weight"...nor are they pulling any excess fat around at that level.

Are you telling me SOB isn't carting a couple of kilos of fat around with him?

And having read about some of the absolute arse a minority of these experts espouse we should be asking questions.

I genuinely think some of the recent games have put to bed the idea that we are one of the fitter teams. I'd say we look mid-table, especially the way we seem to be blowing out our arses after stating games well.

sydthebeat

rsh118 wrote: »

Are you telling me SOB isn't carting a couple of kilos of fat around with him?

And having read about some of the absolute arse a minority of these experts espouse we should be asking questions.

I genuinely think some of the recent games have put to bed the idea that we are one of the fitter teams. I'd say we look mid-table, especially the way we seem to be blowing out our arses after stating games well.

im saying SOB, or any other elite player, would be highly tested and conditioning so as to have themselves into peak performance levels.... and i said "excess" fat because theres no such thing a 0% body fat.

strength and condition is not my area of expertise so i would be very slow to get involved in any high level argument.

and i certainly agree that the myth of us being a "fitter" team is certainly being shown to be a fallacy.... or at least the myth that the french arent fit...

flangemeistro

sydthebeat wrote: »

nor are they pulling any excess fat around at that level.

Really?

Yeah_Right

rsh118 wrote: »

Errrr, so I've been talking to colleagues in NZ, and they got me thinking about players and body fat percentage.

I bring this up because of how Heaslip has trimmed down and is looking immense and also BoDs trimming down back in the day.

Is there a case to be made for increased incentive to cut weight for some of our players? After all, fat is just bulk that your tired muscles have to drag around for 80 minutes. I may self cut 3kgs many a seasons ago, and rather than losing the ability to break the line with my heft, actually found I was being more effective in my all round game.

Obviously there is a huge difference between me eating fewer kebabs and the top lads, but I wonder is if time to experiment of fitness over weight. Cian Healy could be the poster boy. A 112kg prop who has an excellent all round game thanks to excellent fitness. Thinking aloud here...

Interesting thought. I know Savea got sent away for extra fitness work last after he showed up to the ABs camp overweight. I think Healy has definitely gotten bigger and lost some of his athleticism over the past few years. Injuries have obviously played a part but I get the impression he's spent too much time in gym.

sydthebeat

flangemeistro wrote: »

Really?

yes really....

maybe you should look up the definition of the term "excess" :rolleyes: