Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread V

aimee1

Leandro Round Billboard wrote: »

I understand fully what you are saying and if the ref and scrum actually did their jobs we would have won also but we didnt and this is a very poor french team.
Schmidt most definitely has banned offloads unless they are 100% and we all know the most devastating offloads are not gimmes.
Schmidt needs to understand you will not always get quick ruck ball and if you dont offload where does that leave you, Losing to a bad French team when it was easier win.

the ref and scrum is irrelevant. They only become a factor because we lost. If we converted some of the excellent field position into points, especially in the first 20 minutes we would have had at least 13 point lead at half time. One of the reasons we won 2 titles on the trot was our accuracy levels were top class.

rsh118

ClanofLams wrote: »

This was probably covered in the aftermath of Saturdays match but Paddy Jackson needs to bench from here on. Madigan is average at international level and will be in France next season. Past time for Jackson to get experience.

Time to reward the player staying. Jackson to bench.

English Lurker

ClanofLams wrote: »

We haven't a notion of winning over there, be lucky to stay within 10.

It's doable, even with the current team. Not likely on current evidence, but doable; and more than doable if England get a little complacent and Ireland really focus their anger at the least two results accurately.

bilston

English Lurker wrote: »

It's doable, even with the current team. Not likely on current evidence, but doable; and more than doable if England get a little complacent and Ireland really focus their anger at the least two results accurately.

Eddie Jones is a master at the mind games. I loved his comment the other day that Ireland are the benchmark of European rugby. I honestly don't think complacency will be an issue for England.

I fear that the perfect storm of a top coach, a very good squad of players allied to the players that will start coming through of the back of the successful U20 sides you've had in recent years means we are on the brink of a period of English dominance. Time will tell I guess.

rsh118

Annoying that we actually have to possibility of fearing England again. Much as I rated Lancaster he did sanitise England too much, when their rugby has for so long been based around the fact they are big ignorant bastards who are going to impose what they want to do whether you like it or not.

It's going to take one of those emotional performances of old. On a side note, I really like how Schmidt has been working to make the team more consistent. We used to be a passion team, whereas now we hit a really consistent level of play.

CatFromHue

Yeah I'm the wait and see camp with England at the moment.

The Scots and Italians aren't the greatest of barometers of where they are

rsh118

CatFromHue wrote: »

Yeah I'm the wait and see camp with England at the moment.

The Scots and Italians aren't the greatest of barometers of where they are

It's the only shred of hope I'm hanging onto for the six nations. Though of course, rugby is in fact finished now that NZ can win world cups without really breaking a sweat. They played that final like a second round tie in the Quad Nations.

Also, I just had an epiphany in the shower, if you know what I mean. We are 2 points from being on for the Grand Slam and in wonderland. Hmmmm

Yeah_Right

Leandro Round Billboard wrote: »

Yes, you describe it perfectly. Shovels for Hands is another good analogy.
Schmidt needs to Change the back line to something more dynamic and tell the players they can offload without fear of reprisals.

Yeah because offloading in the conditions they played in last Saturday is recipe for success. Ireland would have won if they'd thrown the ball around.

wittycynic

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Dont get me wrong. Earlsie is useful backup to have, and with the current injury spate, he could yet have a role to play. His versatility stands to him, in a Madiganesque kind of way, of being able to fill in more or less competently in a variety of positions, but not really well enough in any to command a starting spot.

Its more a question of style though. We just arent looking for the type of skills he has. We have moved on from the days of Darce/BOD moves and tricks in midfield creating openings for Hickie or Horgan to finish. Chasing and contesting an up and under is clearly more to Dave's strength, and in line with the advanced game Joe has brought to the table.

If rugby is now about winning garryowens instead of incisive backline play, then the game is in a worst state than I had feared. I don't think it's a fair assessment though. Southern hemisphere teams seem to be able create tries without having to rely on their Aussie Rules skillsets to do it. Fundamentally, if you select average players, your end product will likely be pretty average. Select our most skillful and build a game plan around them, well then you have a chance. In fairness, I do feel that is largely what Schmidt has been doing, which is precisely why Earls does get selected.

Noopti

Leandro Round Billboard wrote: »

The 23 man squad below could beat England if
A) Schmidt lets them play
White and Furlong just do their jobs.

mcgrath
best
white
toner
ryan
stander
odonnell
heaslip
murray
sexton
earls
mccloskey
Henshaw
trimble
payne

cronin
cronin
furlong
dillane
ruddock
marimon
jackson
gilroy

Where does this type of nonsense come from!? :rolleyes:

1eg0a3xv7b82of

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Yeah because offloading in the conditions they played in last Saturday is recipe for success. Ireland would have won if they'd thrown the ball around.

It must rain alot when Schmidts Ireland play. :pac:

1eg0a3xv7b82of

Noopti wrote: »

Where does this type of nonsense come from!? :rolleyes:

First good to see you dont rubbish my hypothetical team, we are making progress.
Second, you dont need to be an expert analyst to understand how schmidts Irish team play - defense is very good but the attack is so narrow we are easy to defend against.
Hence why we have 1 point from 4, we should be 4 from 4 at minimum.

Podge_irl

Leandro Round Billboard wrote: »

Hence why we have 1 point from 4, we should be 4 from 4 at minimum.

Curious what you think the maximum should be.

Noopti

Leandro Round Billboard wrote: »

First good to see you dont rubbish my hypothetical team, we are making progress.
Second, you dont need to be an expert analyst to understand how schmidts Irish team play - defense is very good but the attack is so narrow we are easy to defend against.
Hence why we have 1 point from 4, we should be 4 from 4 at minimum.

I actually very much like your hypothetical team! But I hate generalist statements like Schmidt isn't letting the players play.

aimee1

Leandro Round Billboard wrote: »

First good to see you dont rubbish my hypothetical team, we are making progress.
Second, you dont need to be an expert analyst to understand how schmidts Irish team play - defense is very good but the attack is so narrow we are easy to defend against.
Hence why we have 1 point from 4, we should be 4 from 4 at minimum.

sack the coach for not getting 6 points from a possible 4 :eek:

aimee1

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/international/gordon-d-arcy-ireland-have-no-need-to-panic-keep-faith-and-trust-joe-schmidt-1.2537171


Good stuff from Darce.

former total

Podge_irl wrote: »

Curious what you think the maximum should be.

We should have won the games, scored a sh1tload of tries, then retrospectively argued for the introduction of bonus points.

What is Joe getting paid for at all?

I was just looking back at the Ireland v All Blacks match from 2013. I know it was a bit of a freak of a match, but the question has to be asked whether there has been any progress since then?

Schmidt had just taken over, and hadn't put his stamp on the team. Comparing then to now, I can't really see a change in philosophy or playing style. Maybe better defence?

Riskymove

ClanofLams wrote: »

We haven't a notion of winning over there, be lucky to stay within 10.

you realize there have been times when England were going for Grand Slams and Ireland struggling that we beat them

there is no such thing as a foregone conclusion in any game between teams at this level

Riskymove

Basil3 wrote: »

Schmidt had just taken over, and hadn't put his stamp on the team. Comparing then to now, I can't really see a change in philosophy or playing style. Maybe better defence?

This was the Irish team for the game

R. Kearney,
T Bowe,
Brian O'Driscoll,
G D'Arcy,
D Kearney,
J Sexton,
C Murray;
C Healy,
R Best,
M Ross,
P O'Connell (c),
D Toner,
P O'Mahony,
S O'Brien,
J Heaslip.

Three years on we basically have the same starting XV (barring retirements)

After three years there is no appreciable change in tactics or gameplan in my view

We have been exposed this year due to the injuries

JPNelsforearm

aimee1 wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/international/gordon-d-arcy-ireland-have-no-need-to-panic-keep-faith-and-trust-joe-schmidt-1.2537171


Good stuff from Darce.

’m coming from the new perspective on my couch last Saturday but also trying to bring some of the knowledge gained after 17 years in the professional game. The growing din of public disgruntlement is a testament to the type of rugby nation we have become. It shows how popular the game has become. More people than ever have an opinion. Supporters have grown accustomed to success so this season must be very uncomfortable.

More of the same, all criticism is framed as "ignorant fans mad because scoreboard dont add up in their teams favour". Irish rugby players, ex pros and journos have been peddling that ****e non step for years

thomond2006

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

More of the same, all criticism is framed as "ignorant fans mad because scoreboard dont add up in their teams favour". Irish rugby players, ex pros and journos have been peddling that ****e non step for years

In fairness he writes it in a reasonable tone unlike someone like Tony Ward.

JPNelsforearm

thomond2006 wrote: »

In fairness he writes it in a reasonable tone unlike someone like Tony Ward.

He does, but its still the same message, I'll support Ireland and Leinster dying on their feet, but Im not going to cheer turgid muck, let alone turgid losing muck, and then be told what im seeing is actually an illusion and that im just a success whore. **** rugby is **** rugby, win or lose, why ex pros and journos feel the need to denigrate Irish rugby fans when defending their team is beyond me. Why bring the fans into it? None of them can defend crap style of play without hammering the fans criticisms, even if its done politely like Darce. This is all getting MOC'ish

Sanjuro

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

He does, but its still the same message, I'll support Ireland and Leinster dying on their feet, but Im not going to cheer turgid muck, let alone turgid losing muck, and then be told what im seeing is actually an illusion and that im just a success whore. **** rugby is **** rugby, win or lose, why ex pros and journos feel the need to denigrate Irish rugby fans when defending their team is beyond me. Why bring the fans into it? None of them can defend crap style of play without hammering the fans criticisms, even if its done politely like Darce. This is all getting MOC'ish

Did you actually read the piece, or skim through it? While he doesn't go into Murray Kinsella-esqu detail on new moves and what not, D'arcy does point out instances where moves and systems are being implemented. But I suppose people wont be happy until they see crazy backs moves being pulled out of nowhere and the ball chucked about with abandon.

JPNelsforearm

Sanjuro wrote: »

Did you actually read the piece, or skim through it? While he doesn't go into Murray Kinsella-esqu detail on new moves and what not, D'arcy does point out instances where moves and systems are being implemented. But I suppose people wont be happy until they see crazy backs moves being pulled out of nowhere and the ball chucked about with abandon.

Prime example of what I am talking about. An excoriation of ****e rugby does not mean I suggest throwing the kitchen sink at teams from minute one.

I did read it. Its a regime defense, Joe is immutable from criticism, we should be happy with where we are, no problems with style of play etc etc. Do you want me to break it down paragraph by paragraph.

CMOTDibbler

Riskymove wrote: »

This was the Irish team for the game

R. Kearney,
T Bowe,
Brian O'Driscoll,
G D'Arcy,
D Kearney,
J Sexton,
C Murray;
C Healy,
R Best,
M Ross,
P O'Connell (c),
D Toner,
P O'Mahony,
S O'Brien, for 60 minutes
J Heaslip.

Three years on we basically have the same starting XV (barring retirements)

After three years there is no appreciable change in tactics or gameplan in my view

We have been exposed this year due to the injuries

Striking out the players who have retired and/or weren't available is half that team.

I don't know if we are playing much differently from how we did in that NZ game, I'd have to watch it again. However missing players like BOD, D'Arcy, POC, POM, 3/4 of SOB, Cian Healy (in the form of his life) and Mike Ross is a significant difference when arguably their replacements (with the possible exception of Jack McGrath) are a step down, in some cases a significant one.

There's a possibility that the likes of McCloskey, Ringrose, Olding and a few others could be the kind of players we need, but it's only a possibility at this stage.

I dunno about that article from D'Arcy. There's a few things I would question.

On 45 minutes Devin Toner passed out the back of Mike McCarthy, a pre-planned set play, which ended with the ball on the ground when Robbie Henshaw over-ran Fergus McFadden’s pass. There was space down the touchline. Again, execution let Ireland down but it’s so rare to see forwards combine in broken field. That’s clear progress.

Lumbering Toner catching and passing the ball? I dunno. I need more to be impressed.

That’s mainly due to how jaded the players were after a brilliant defensive effort after a six day turnaround.

Six day turnaround, and can still put in an amazing defensive display. 6 day turnarounds only seem to affect handling, execution, and general offensive play.

The growing din of public disgruntlement is a testament to the type of rugby nation we have become. It shows how popular the game has become. More people than ever have an opinion. Supporters have grown accustomed to success so this season must be very uncomfortable.

I think it's more at the point that people are more bothered with the style of play than the results, at this stage. Just like the Leinster season ticket holders I know who were seriously thinking about not renewing for this season because the actual rugby was dire.

No Ireland cap should be given out with the “throw him in there to see how he goes” attitude. That whole idea frustrates me. Every cap I ever won was hard earned. I refused to give up the 12 jersey without a bloody fight. That’s the way it should always be.

True, Mr D'Arcy, but you were lucky enough to play alongside one of the greatest centres of all time. If players aren't executing the game plan, then bring in someone who will. If the game plan is what Ireland have been executing, then I'd be concerned.

Just look at the successful teams in other sports that remain true to the “Stay The Course” philosophy. The San Antonio Spurs (NBA champions 1999, 2003, 2005, 2007 and 2014) and New England Patriots in the NFL are in contention every single season because they refuse to panic, always trust their systems, their players, and never gamble erratically during tough moments in a game. The team that stays the course gets into position to win the game every single time.

What? I thought the Schmidt plan involved a well-executed kicking game, which we haven't even been seeing. Why look outside your sport when you already have other teams within the sport that can illustrate your point even more?

We are not, nor ever will be, the All Blacks and you can’t simply decide to play like them.

We can’t just switch to a style of play that doesn’t come naturally to us. We don’t have the time or finances, nor do we have the numbers, to introduce a new way of playing

Losing the majority of games to develop an unproven brand of rugby is nonsensical talk.

Sorry, you've completely lost me now. Ireland are completely capable of playing high tempo rugby, making correct decisions under pressure, and getting the basics of passing, kicking and offloading right.

I have no idea what this unproven brand of rugby is that you talk about.

CMOTDibbler

Basil3 wrote: »

Lumbering Toner catching and passing the ball? I dunno. I need more to be impressed.

But he did in this instance, no? Have seen him do it before as well, has surprisingly good hands for a lock, or perhaps that should be phrased; he has hands instead of feet

Basil3 wrote: »

Six day turnaround, and can still put in an amazing defensive display. 6 day turnarounds only seem to affect handling, execution, and general offensive play.

Well according to the normal turnaround before matches, at least a day's training is lost? Something has to be sacrificed if not just fitness.

Basil3 wrote: »

I think it's more at the point that people are more bothered with the style of play than the results, at this stage. Just like the Leinster season ticket holders I know who were seriously thinking about not renewing for this season because the actual rugby was dire.

This is probably the big issue really. I just don't think the players are good enough. Some are, but what took the field last Saturday was a step or two down from our best possible selection. Not so much defensively, but as an attacking side, we really don't have much once we lose ball carriers like SOB, POM and Healy and proven line breakers like Fitz and Earls in the backs.

Basil3 wrote: »

Sorry, you've completely lost me now. Ireland are completely capable of playing high tempo rugby, making correct decisions under pressure, and getting the basics of passing, kicking and offloading right.

I agree. I sometimes think that we can lose a bit of tempo with Murray who can be quick at times but not all the time. He's also inclined to get stuck at the bottom of a ruck when we need him to be upping the tempo and whether that's an issue with the forwards or him, it needs to be sorted. Quite a few times on Saturday we were in good positions but had horrendously slow ball because we had no scrum half.

Buer

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

More of the same, all criticism is framed as "ignorant fans mad because scoreboard dont add up in their teams favour". Irish rugby players, ex pros and journos have been peddling that ****e non step for years

But is he not right? We've seen it multiple times over the past decade:

Munster win 2 HEC titles in 3 years and the fans were vocal in their criticism of McGahan and wanted him gone as he couldn't continue the success with a rapidly ageing side despite winning the league under him.

Leinster win 3 HEC titles in 4 years and the fans are highly critical of MOC's tenure despite losing multiple key players.

Ireland win their first GS in 60 years but, after the very next Six Nations, the murmurs of discontent start against Kidney when they fail to match the previous season's showings.

Ireland win consecutive 6N titles under Schmidt and the country is cock a hoop after beating France in the RWC but within 3 games there are serious complaints about his coaching.

We're a complete boom/bust nation of sports fans. If we're not winning, there has to be something significantly wrong, in the minds of many.

Noopti

Buer wrote: »

But is he not right? We've seen it multiple times over the past decade:

Munster win 2 HEC titles in 3 years and the fans were vocal in their criticism of McGahan and wanted him gone as he couldn't continue the success with a rapidly ageing side despite winning the league under him.

Leinster win 3 HEC titles in 4 years and the fans are highly critical of MOC's tenure despite losing multiple key players.

Ireland win their first GS in 60 years but, after the very next Six Nations, the murmurs of discontent start against Kidney when they fail to match the previous season's showings.

Ireland win consecutive 6N titles under Schmidt and the country is cock a hoop after beating France in the RWC but within 3 games there are serious complaints about his coaching.

We're a complete boom/bust nation of sports fans. If we're not winning, there has to be something significantly wrong, in the minds of many.

Nail. On. Head

rsh118

Boom and bust is a good way of phrasing it. I'd say we should stick with Joe like Our Arsene Wenger. Give him tenure, tell him he can implement anything all the way down, and build a provincial set up that feeds the national team even better.

bilston

rsh118 wrote: »

Boom and bust is a good way of phrasing it. I'd say we should stick with Joe like Our Arsene Wenger. Give him tenure, tell him he can implement anything all the way down, and build a provincial set up that feeds the national team even better.

Interesting comparison.

The Rape of Lucretia

Riskymove wrote: »

This was the Irish team for the game

R. Kearney,
T Bowe,
Brian O'Driscoll,
G D'Arcy,
D Kearney,
J Sexton,
C Murray;
C Healy,
R Best,
M Ross,
P O'Connell (c),
D Toner,
P O'Mahony,
S O'Brien,
J Heaslip.

Three years on we basically have the same starting XV (barring retirements)

Why bar retirements ? Are they still there ?
If not then you dont have the same team. 8 of that team started on Saturday - thats a very stretched 'basically'.
But acknowledging almost half the team is actually changed doesnt suit the agenda of some I guess despite the facts of the matter.

The Rape of Lucretia

rsh118 wrote: »

Much as I rated Lancaster he did sanitise England too much, when their rugby has for so long been based around the fact they are big ignorant bastards who are going to impose what they want to do whether you like it or not.

Harsh. Crude. And harsh.
They are trying their best.

CMOTDibbler

bilston wrote: »

Interesting comparison.

I'd say he just couldn't remember Alex Ferguson's name

The Rape of Lucretia

Basil3 wrote: »

Lumbering Toner catching and passing the ball? I dunno. I need more to be impressed.

Regular watchers of Dev know that he can be quite the deft handler.

wittycynic

Much as I want to see players like McCloskey included, Joe is a top coach and he will stick to his guns, as well he should. Being a top manager is as much about having the conviction to employ your approach in the face of criticism as it is anything else. The likes of Ferguson and Wenger demonstrate that. Agree or disagree with it Joe has a system that has brought us success, and may do so again.

I think both fans and journalists often mix up expressed disappointment with lack of faith in the coach. The way we communicate our disappointment further confuses the matter. In frustration after a loss I'll rattle off the names of players who I think should have played or playstyles that should have been adopted, but that isn't a sincere questioning of Joe's ability. It's just disappointment and frustration manifesting. I think journalists would do well to ignore criticism in the immediate aftermath of a game and see it for what it is, rather than report it as some sort of genuine emerging discontent with management. Next to nobody believes that Joe isn't the man for the job, or that alternative approach would yield superior results.

JPNelsforearm

rsh118 wrote: »

Boom and bust is a good way of phrasing it. I'd say we should stick with Joe like Our Arsene Wenger. Give him tenure, tell him he can implement anything all the way down, and build a provincial set up that feeds the national team even better.

Id say everyone would welcome that, stop this "next game" mentality that leads to conservatism

wittycynic

wittycynic wrote: »

Much as I want to see players like McCloskey included, Joe is a top coach and he will stick to his guns, as well he should. Being a top manager is as much about having the conviction to employ your approach in the face of criticism as it is anything else. The likes of Ferguson and Wenger demonstrate that. Agree or disagree with it Joe has a system that has brought us success, and may do so again.

Ferguson consistently brought success, if not an attractive playing style.
Wenger (fairly) consistently brought an attractive style, if not success.

The problem is when both desert you.

rsh118

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

I'd say he just couldn't remember Alex Ferguson's name

Still can't bring myself to say that name

I would love Joe to be given the power alongside Nucifora to implement a vision from top to bottom. I know sports are hard to compare but when Germany did it in the soccer everyone reaped the benefits. They set their stall out with a style of play they wanted every player versed in and in the end they won a World Cup after decades of being nearly men.

rsh118

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Harsh. Crude. And harsh.
They are trying their best.

Only in rugby of course. I think we've all seen enough of the Hasks banter videos to know they are a cerebral bunch, like most sportspeople.

CMOTDibbler

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Regular watchers of Dev know that he can be quite the deft handler.

Here you go

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xXQeyugDTc4

rsh118

rsh118 wrote: »

Boom and bust is a good way of phrasing it. I'd say we should stick with Joe like Our Arsene Wenger. Give him tenure, tell him he can implement anything all the way down, and build a provincial set up that feeds the national team even better.

Could be the Leinster bias, but I'd love to see Joe contracted to the next world cup for this very reason. Take the rough with the smooth. Gatland has been with Wales for ages.

rsh118

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Could be the Leinster bias, but I'd love to see Joe contracted to the next world cup for this very reason. Take the rough with the smooth. Gatland has been with Wales for ages.

Spot on and they have done well because he feels secure. Give Joe the keys, roll out the red carpet. One day make him Director of Rugby with an office of equal size next door to Nucifora.

sydthebeat

its gas the way this forum go through the five stages of grief after a loss.....

denial, anger, bargaining, depression and acceptance....

we've get through the denial stage quite quickly ("i cant believe we lost that", "how did we lose that with so much possession" etc)
the anger stage last quite a few days... as we have seen with some of the vitriol spewed
bargaining is always there... continuously saying "if we had have played x the result would have been different" "we should have tried more offloads and we would have won" !!!

i think at the moment we are somewhere between the depression and acceptance stage.
depression in the realization of our how our high level injuries expose our lack of high quality depth.... depression in whats to come.
and finally acceptance that joes dampening of expectation at the start of the competition and prediction of a tough competition and 'top half' table finish.

Pudsy33

That's a great article from D'Arcy, and really put things in perspective for me. In Schmidt's reign we have been comprehensively beaten once, the Argentina quarter final, and even then we got to within a score at a time. We are always within touching distance of all the team we play, sometimes accuracy just let's us down. There is no massive need for panic. We will be very close to England next weekend and it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if we win.

sydthebeat

Pudsy33 wrote: »

That's a great article from D'Arcy, and really put things in perspective for me. In Schmidt 's reign where we have been comprehensively beaten was the Argentina quarter final, and even then we got to within a score at a time. We are always within touching distance of all the team we play, sometimes accuracy just let's us down. There is no massive need for panic. We will be very close to England next weekend and it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if we win.

there was the first australia game but that really was down to absolutely cat first up defending rather than a systems failure.

Pudsy33

sydthebeat wrote: »

there was the first australia game but that really was down to absolutely cat first up defending rather than a systems failure.

Madigan's attempt to tackle Cooper still annoys me

rsh118

There has definitely been an emotional shift. I no longer dread those Autumn games, now it's all about looking forward to quite possibly beating our premier opposition.

We'd have laughed off 2 AB games a few years ago, now we can really believe we are in with a shout at them!!

The Black Stags

Neil Treacy on are scrums - hot off the press!

http://www.the42.ie/ireland-france-scrum-analysis-3-2608908-Feb2016/