Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread V

ClanofLams

Riskymove wrote: »

you realize there have been times when England were going for Grand Slams and Ireland struggling that we beat them

there is no such thing as a foregone conclusion in any game between teams at this level

Yes I do. Chances are if I am posting on the boards.ie rugby forum I am familiar with 2002 and certainly the 2011 game, both of which were at home.

I don't actually think England will do the Grand Slam but they will have more than enough to win comfortably enough next weekend.

bilston

rsh118 wrote: »

There has definitely been an emotional shift. I no longer dread those Autumn games, now it's all about looking forward to quite possibly beating our premier opposition.

We'd have laughed off 2 AB games a few years ago, now we can really believe we are in with a shout at them!!

Well we'd need a few boys back from injury first.

Healy back to his best, and a fit Hendy, POM and SOB are essential if we are to beat them this year.

rsh118

Henderson will be a game changer for us. I think he'll compliment Toner beautifully a la Bakkies and Matfield at their best. Here's hoping he can get a good injury free run going!

Riskymove

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Striking out the players who have retired and/or weren't available is half that team.

I was talking about the starting XV if everyone was available not the starting 15 this week

ClanofLams

rsh118 wrote: »

Henderson will be a game changer for us. I think he'll compliment Toner beautifully a la Bakkies and Matfield at their best.

Henderson is good and hopefully will be great but he's not superman. Paul O Connell and Henderson may have been capable of reaching a similar level to Botha and Matfield. Devon Toner and Henderson assuredly will not be in the same league, no matter how great Henderson becomes.

Riskymove

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Why bar retirements ? Are they still there ?
If not then you dont have the same team. 8 of that team started on Saturday - thats a very stretched 'basically'.

as above

I am talking about the expected starting XV if everyone was fit still being the same

But acknowledging almost half the team is actually changed doesnt suit the agenda of some I guess despite the facts of the matter.

BTW I haven't a clue what you are getting at here or what you are trying to accuse me of

My point is that the first choice team is basically the same and therefore the game plan and tactics have generally remained the same

As I said, it is only due to the injuries this season that we have really been exposed. We now have half a relatively "new" team so there is likely to b e a serious impact on our performance

rsh118

ClanofLams wrote: »

Henderson is good and hopefully will be great but he's not superman. Paul O Connell and Henderson may have been capable of reaching a similar level to Botha and Matfield. Devon Toner and Henderson assuredly will not be in the same league, no matter how great Henderson becomes.

I disagree, Toner is looking assured as a line out operator and has raised his all-round gameplay since Joe took over. Henderson meanwhile has learnt to apply himself across the entire game.

There was a time whe. POC was but a callow youth too and decent without being likely to be one of the world's best.

aimee1

http://www.sportssurgeryclinic.com/blog-research/blogs-infographics/the-growth-of-hip-surgery-in-ireland/554

interesting read from the [former i think] irish rugby team doctor

ClanofLams

rsh118 wrote: »

I disagree, Toner is looking assured as a line out operator and has raised his all-round gameplay since Joe took over. Henderson meanwhile has learnt to apply himself across the entire game.

There was a time whe. POC was but a callow youth too and decent without being likely to be one of the world's best.

At no stage were POC and Devon Toner comparable. Isnt Toner hitting 30 anyway?? I'm not trying to be harsh on Toner, he has improved but he's still average at international level at best, witness him getting cleaned our in rucks the last two weeks, most prominent example in the final few minutes against Wales, think it was just before their go ahead score. No matter who is beside him in the row, Toner isn't going to be in a partnership which comes anywhere close to one of the very best in the professional era and to think otherwise is delusional.

rsh118

ClanofLams wrote: »

At no stage were POC and Devon Toner comparable. Isnt Toner hitting 30 anyway?? I'm not trying to be harsh on Toner, he has improved but he's still average at international level at best, witness him getting cleaned our in rucks the last two weeks, most prominent example in the final few minutes against Wales, think it was just before their go ahead score. No matter who is beside him in the row, Toner isn't going to be in a partnership which comes anywhere close to one of the very best in the professional era and to think otherwise is delusional.

Actually fair play on the rucking, he is pretty weak in that area. I really wish he was able to fill out like some of the other tall locks in international rugby. He could be such a machine. On the other hand he provides some serious lifting potential due to his frame being light for its size. I have liked his hands out of contact it that is one area he's really have to work on, he does seem too easy to shift out of rucks at times. I think he is more of an asset than we sometimes realise though, and I used to think he was an utterly useless waste of ink on the team sheet.

CMOTDibbler

ClanofLams wrote: »

At no stage were POC and Devon Toner comparable. Isnt Toner hitting 30 anyway?? I'm not trying to be harsh on Toner, he has improved but he's still average at international level at best, witness him getting cleaned our in rucks the last two weeks, most prominent example in the final few minutes against Wales, think it was just before their go ahead score. No matter who is beside him in the row, Toner isn't going to be in a partnership which comes anywhere close to one of the very best in the professional era and to think otherwise is delusional.

Lads get cleaned out of rucks all the time. You can be particularly vulnerable in those situations. POC was cleaned out and had his hamstring torn off against France. If that's your yardstick for dismissing a player, be prepared to make a very long list.

rsh118

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Lads get cleaned out of rucks all the time. You can be particularly vulnerable in those situations. POC was cleaned out and had his hamstring torn off against France. If that's your yardstick for dismissing a player, be prepared to make a very long list.

We never saw ROG cleared out...

its_phil

rsh118 wrote: »

Henderson meanwhile has learnt to apply himself across the entire game.

Please expand.

CMOTDibbler

rsh118 wrote: »

We never saw ROG cleared out...

ROG had more sense than to get involved in rucks

ClanofLams

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Lads get cleaned out of rucks all the time. You can be particularly vulnerable in those situations. POC was cleaned out and had his hamstring torn off against France. If that's your yardstick for dismissing a player, be prepared to make a very long list.

It's a consistent weakness in Toner''s game. He's a good set piece player but offers little around the park. Average international standard second row and if Ireland want to improve we could do with finding two better second rows than him.

rsh118

its_phil wrote: »

Please expand.

I read somewhere that Joe's advice for Henderson was to maintain his aggression and application across 80 minutes, whereas Henderson at the time was tending to get into a bit of ruck inspection from around 65 minutes onwards.

As he has tended to drift in and out of games less, he's become more useful because he's not going missing towards he end of games.

If I'm wrong on that, I blame everyone but myself.

The Black Stags

rsh118 wrote: »

Actually fair play on the rucking, he is pretty weak in that area. I really wish he was able to fill out like some of the other tall locks in international rugby. He could be such a machine. On the other hand he provides some serious lifting potential due to his frame being light for its size. I have liked his hands out of contact it that is one area he's really have to work on, he does seem too easy to shift out of rucks at times. I think he is more of an asset than we sometimes realise though, and I used to think he was an utterly useless waste of ink on the team sheet.

He's actually more comparable in size to Botha, Botha wasn't a massively built gym guy -but he was a very powerful man. Toner just has no power and has no ability to dominate in any aspect of the game using his weight. He's tall and can reach to disrupt things which is great but, it's never going to take two or three guys to bring him down.

Lood De Jager is another example of a lock not a gym freak but actual able to impose himself on the game with his power.

Also I'm aware I have this in reverse and it's Matfield for Toner and Botha for Henderson. Just pointing out size-wise it should be the other way around. Toner isn't as dynamic a runner as Matfield - he just lacks Matfield all round skills set as well.

rsh118

The Black Stags wrote: »

He's actually more comparable in size to Botha, Botha wasn't a massively built gym guy -but he was a very powerful man. Toner just has no power and has no ability to dominate in any aspect of the game using his weight. He's tall and can reach to disrupt things which is great but, it's never going to take two or three guys to bring him down.

Lood De Jager is another example of a lock not a gym freak but actual able to impose himself on the game with his power.

Also I'm aware I have this in reverse and it's Matfield for Toner and Botha for Henderson. Just pointing out size-wise it should be the other way around. Toner isn't as dynamic a runner as Matfield - he just lacks Matfield all round skills set as well.

Another sign of how good a pairing they were that they can match up to our pair either way round!

De Jäger, man I remember seeing him against the All Blacks and not thinking much, but that guy has turned into a baby faced monster. Appearances are definitely deceptive.

CMOTDibbler

ClanofLams wrote: »

It's a consistent weakness in Toner''s game. He's a good set piece player but offers little around the park. Average international standard second row and if Ireland want to improve we could do with finding two better second rows than him.

I actually don't believe it is. Murray Kinsella has done ruck analysis for Ireland over the last year or so and Devin Toner is one of the top scorers at rucks.

The analysis from the France game at the RWC is here.

Noopti

Toner definitely can be frustrating to watch around ruck time. Sometimes he can be disruptive, usually when kicking his long legs through to disrupt a ball, but he can often flop around a ruck and can give away stupid penalties sometimes as a result.

Maybe if there was some in dept analysis of his interventions at rucks I could well be proven wrong, this is just a general observation I have noticed. Many times during games I am thinking to myself "jesus Toner what the hell are you doing that for" when it comes to rucks.

Edit: And there is some analysis which proves me wrong! :P But I definitely do notice occasions where he can be very clumsy at rucks.

Mahatma Geansai

The ruck is a lock's primary role. A great lock must be great around the ruck area. Toner is not very good around the ruck area.

http://www.punditarena.com/rugby/mbrosnan/analysis-ireland-attacking-game-plan/

Interesting

Bazzo

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

The ruck is a lock's primary role. A great lock must be great around the ruck area. Toner is not very good around the ruck area.

I would say that the set piece is a second row's primary role with rucking a close second.

While I agree that certain aspects of Toner's game can be frustrating I think he's improved pretty immensely in the last few years and hopefully he continues to do so and hits a late peak.

Besides, do we really have any better alternatives, he's head and shoulders above the rest .

ClanofLams

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

I actually don't believe it is. Murray Kinsella has done ruck analysis for Ireland over the last year or so and Devin Toner is one of the top scorers at rucks.

The analysis from the France game at the RWC is here.

I saw that before. He had a good day but that happens. Kinsella done similar articles in last year's six nations and don't recall toner ever being as effective and it looks more likely the day was an aberration rather than a new leaf.

Bazzo

Bazzo wrote: »

I would say that the set piece is a second row's primary role with rucking a close second.

While I agree that certain aspects of Toner's game can be frustrating I think he's improved pretty immensely in the last few years and hopefully he continues to do so and hits a late peak.

Besides, do we really have any better alternatives, he's head and shoulders above the rest .

Yup it's a good point. Toner has been consistently improving his all around game for years.

Look at Dave Foley at Munster for example. Two years ago he was all set to push into the setup and there were people on here saying he would be ahead of Toner by the 2015 6 nations as "absolute fact".

Whereas unlike Toner he hasn't been able to continually develop aspects of his game and is playing poorly at Munster at the moment.

For all Toner's detractors, he has continually proved people wrong, and detailed analysis of his play continually demonstrates a high level of effectiveness.

It's easy to say "he looks poor, weak at rucks etc" but in reality the facts and stats prove otherwise.

CMOTDibbler

ClanofLams wrote: »

I saw that before. He had a good day but that happens. Kinsella done similar articles in last year's six nations and don't recall toner ever being as effective and it looks more likely the day was an aberration rather than a new leaf.

England in the six nations 2015 here.

One of the top performers at rucks in a team that included POC, POM and Cian Healy.

So that's two in the same year. Do I really have to keep proving that he's a better performer in rucks than you would like to give him credit for?

The Black Stags

Deleted User wrote: »

http://www.punditarena.com/rugby/mbrosnan/analysis-ireland-attacking-game-plan/

Interesting

Interesting in that there are only 4 sentences dedicated to Ireland's attack after the initial 20mins. It's perhaps telling that Seanie went off after 20mins.

But yeah I noticed during the game how, I guess aggressive France were at ruck time (Wales too the previous week) really didn't look like winning a turnover from them.

awec

Deleted User wrote: »

Yup it's a good point. Toner has been consistently improving his all around game for years.

Look at Dave Foley at Munster for example. Two years ago he was all set to push into the setup and there were people on here saying he would be ahead of Toner by the 2015 6 nations as "absolute fact".

Whereas unlike Toner he hasn't been able to continually develop aspects of his game and is playing poorly at Munster at the moment.

For all Toner's detractors, he has continually proved people wrong, and detailed analysis of his play continually demonstrates a high level of effectiveness.

It's easy to say "he looks poor, weak at rucks etc" but in reality the facts and stats prove otherwise.

Toner doesn't continually prove people wrong, you make it sound like he's a consistent top performer. He is capable of very good games but he is also capable of very average ones. He's a decent player, but isn't going to ever really worry top level opposition.

I think if Ireland had any half-decent depth at lock his place would be under serious scrutiny.

He is unquestionably great in the lineout and the maul, but around the field he very often completely ineffectual.

http://www.punditarena.com/rugby/bbarry/why-robbie-henshaw-move-to-leinster-is-bad-news-for-irish-rugby/

This one not so good

Henshaw has established himself as one of the top centres in the northern hemisphere, and will not struggle to get game-time at the RDS. However, this will have a knock-on effect throughout the squad. Currently, Leo Cullen selects his centres from a list featuring Garry Ringrose, Noel Reid, Ben Te’o, Ian Madigan and Isa Nacewa.

Strike through wont be at Leinster next season, bolded is just simply untrue?

awec

Deleted User wrote: »

http://www.punditarena.com/rugby/bbarry/why-robbie-henshaw-move-to-leinster-is-bad-news-for-irish-rugby/

This one not so good



Strike through wont be at Leinster next season, bolded is just simply untrue?

Pundit Arena is an awful news source. Pretty sure it's just random blokes submitting articles.

Paddywiggum

I can see us being comprehensively beaten in Twickenham, by 12-15pts.

We can of course bury our heads in the sand like a lot of pundits seem to do and look only for excuses rather than addressing problems. One telling look at our current form, no win in 3 and scoring 3 pts in the 2nd half of our last 2 matches. These are glaring statistics and very worrying.

England will have targeted this first home match from the outset and the two week gap will suit a new coach. You get the feel our two week gap is just to heal bodies.

And if people think Schmidt is getting criticism now, just wait till we lose to England and barring a draw in Italy v Scotland, we'll be 5th in the table.

awec

awec wrote: »

Pundit Arena is an awful news source. Pretty sure it's just random blokes submitting articles.

yup. Always like to have a good scout around for published stuff though.

That link, and balls.ie Conor (he must have taken her name when he got married) O'Leary George 's critique of McGrath are useful things to take note of when trying to figure out if someone's opinion is worth reading again...

awec

awec wrote: »

Toner doesn't continually prove people wrong, you make it sound like he's a consistent top performer. He is capable of very good games but he is also capable of very average ones. He's a decent player, but isn't going to ever really worry top level opposition.

I think if Ireland had any half-decent depth at lock his place would be under serious scrutiny.

He is unquestionably great in the lineout and the maul, but around the field he very often completely ineffectual.

Everyone said he be on the bench for the France game in the world cup. Had the best Irish second row performance of the tournament instead.

One of many examples.

ClanofLams

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

England in the six nations 2015 here.

One of the top performers at rucks in a team that included POC, POM and Cian Healy.

So that's two in the same year. Do I really have to keep proving that he's a better performer in rucks than you would like to give him credit for?

One of the top performers is more than stretching it. Even in this cherry picked game, he made effectively no contribution to defensive rucking. Murphy POM POC and SOB/TOD were all more important to the cause generally speaking.

In other words of the back five forwards, he was fifth. Hardly awe inspiring stuff.

CMOTDibbler

Noopti wrote: »

Edit: And there is some analysis which proves me wrong! :P But I definitely do notice occasions where he can be very clumsy at rucks.

It's hard not to notice Toner when he does something wrong. It's impossible to confuse him with someone else.

I watched the game again last night. A few of things struck me.

1. It really was p1ssing down rain, the whole time.
2. Our defensive line speed was pretty damn good.
3. A lot of good attacking moves broke down because of errors. A lot of these from the conditions, but some (like Trimble's header) from being out of position.
4. Robbie Henshaw's knock on for Dave Kearney's 'try' was actually a knock on. The ball hit his chest and then his thumb.
5. Early in the game we didn't keep our tempo up and allowed France too much time to regroup in defence.

awec

Deleted User wrote: »

Everyone said he be on the bench for the France game in the world cup. Had the best Irish second row performance of the tournament instead.

One of many examples.

So? Hardly proof of his continual proving people wrong.

Toner is one of those players that has an army of people who think he's rubbish and an army of people who think he's brilliant. He's like marmite.

The reality is that he's somewhere in the middle. Good, but limited. Not really the standard of player you want to be nailed on every week for a start.

He looks better when we have someone to play beside him to make up for his shortcomings. As good as McCarthy has been he doesn't have the engine for doing that job.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

It's hard not to notice Toner when he does something wrong. It's impossible to confuse him with someone else.

I watched the game again last night. A few of things struck me.

1. It really was p1ssing down rain, the whole time.
2. Our defensive line speed was pretty damn good.
3. A lot of good attacking moves broke down because of errors. A lot of these from the conditions, but some (like Trimble's header) from being out of position.
4. Robbie Henshaw's knock on for Dave Kearney's 'try' was actually a knock on. The ball hit his chest and then his thumb.
5. Early in the game we didn't keep our tempo up and allowed France too much time to regroup in defence.

This was the one where Murray was passing to Toner and Trimble appeared in between them at the last minute getting in the way?

ClanofLams

ClanofLams wrote: »

One of the top performers is more than stretching it. Even in this cherry picked game, he made effectively no contribution to defensive rucking. Murphy POM POC and SOB/TOD were all more important to the cause generally speaking.

In other words of the back five forwards, he was fifth. Hardly awe inspiring stuff.

Are you not being very hypocritical here?
Given that you've cherry picked the single metric that suits your narrative and ignored the others?

Also, the accusations of cherry picking are unfounded, given that 'Kinsella's Ruck Marks' aren't done for every game. Two have been provided, where are the ones that paint the picture that you believe is more accurate?

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

I see Cian Healy has signed a new 3 year deal. Were there rumours about him heading to England? Seems everyone is getting 3 year deals now.

awec

Deleted User wrote: »

yup. Always like to have a good scout around for published stuff though.

That link, and balls.ie Conor (he must have taken her name when he got married) O'Leary George 's critique of McGrath are useful things to take note of when trying to figure out if someone's opinion is worth reading again...

I don't think Conor O'Leary is actually Conor George. For one thing, O'Leary is one of those writers that points out that rugby exists outside of Leinster and Munster whereas Conor George didn't think there was life outside of Cork and Limerick.

CMOTDibbler

ClanofLams wrote: »

One of the top performers is more than stretching it. Even in this cherry picked game, he made effectively no contribution to defensive rucking. Murphy POM POC and SOB/TOD were all more important to the cause generally speaking.

In other words of the back five forwards, he was fifth. Hardly awe inspiring stuff.

Cherry picked? :rolleyes: I went backwards through Kinsella's articles. Those were the first two with rucking analysis that I found. They don't suit your argument, so I cherry picked them.

Here's what Kinsella himself said:

The rest of the pack contributed well to Ireland’s rucking cause, Devin Toner in particular standing out. His involvements at ruck time totalled 36, another big shift from a man who has worked hard to be more effective in this aspect of the game.

Rucking actions per minute of game

0.75 Sean O’Brien (went off injured, small sample)

0.65 Marty Moore
0.64 Cian Healy
0.62 Jordi Murphy
0.55 Devin Toner
0.55 Paul O’Connell
0.50 Jack McGrath
0.49 Mike Ross
0.47 Peter O’Mahony
0.43 Tommy O’Donnell
0.40 Iain Henderson
0.29 Rory Best

ClanofLams

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Are you not being very hypocritical here?
Given that you've cherry picked the single metric that suits your narrative and ignored the others?

Also, the accusations of cherry picking are unfounded, given that 'Kinsella's Ruck Marks' aren't done for every game. Two have been provided, where are the ones that paint the picture that you believe is more accurate?

Fair enough, I thought Kinellar did them for every game, my bad. Anyway my point remains the same, rucking is primarily a job for the pack and of the pack one would expect the second and back rows to be more involved for fairly obvious reasons. Of that 5, Toner did the least, not sure how that is cause for special praise.

Edit - I wasn't comparing Toner to the rest in defensive rucking so didn't cherry pick one metric. I think it's a particular weakness of Toners rucking that he doesn't slow opposition ball enough so was just pointing that out to be the case again here. Then I was speaking of Ireland's rucking game as a whole where I noted he was behind his second row and back row colleagues. Apologies, wasn't very clear.

CMOTDibbler

ClanofLams wrote: »

Fair enough, I thought Kinellar did them for every game, my bad. Anyway my point remains the same, rucking is primarily a job for the pack and of the pack one would expect the second and back rows to be more involved for fairly obvious reasons. Of that 5, Toner did the least, not sure how that is cause for special praise.

No he didn't, see above. In fact other than SOB (who's numbers are skewed through him going off early), in total ruck involvements, Toner is only beaten by one back row and two props.

ClanofLams

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Cherry picked? :rolleyes: I went backwards through Kinsella's articles. Those were the first two with rucking analysis that I found. They don't suit your argument, so I cherry picked them.

Here's what Kinsella himself said

Right already said my mistake on the cherry picking!

As for what Kinsella said the rest of the pack was Toner and the front row. Kinsella had singled out o connell and the back row for praise above that paragraph. I would expect him to be more involved than the front row and don't view it as an achievement of any kind.

ClanofLams

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

No he didn't, see above. In fact other than SOB (who's numbers are skewed through him going off early), in total ruck involvements, Toner is only beaten by one back row and two props.

You're going on a per minute basis whilst I was going on number of involvements. Being subbed skews Toners numbers to a degree also. The fact that Kinsella specifically referred to Toner as best of the rest having already mentioned on connell and the back row indicates fairly clearly where he rated him.

leakyboots

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/sixnations/12159058/Six-Nations-2016-top-performers.html?frame=3575696

Some stats from the campaign thus far, I picked out a few of interest..

CJ is top carrier with 42, one ahead of Vunipola and 6 ahead of Parisse. Two French backs make up the top 15, a fullback (! - Medard) and their Fijian winger.

Medard is #2 in metres made with ball in hand behind George North. Liam Williams and Hogg at #3 and #4... funny what happens when your 15 seeks out space instead of contact

Rory Best is 4th worst hooker in terms of lineout accuracy.

Italian centre, Michele Campagnaro, made most line breaks with 5 (also joint top of turnover stakes). Virimi Vakatawa is in joint 2nd place with George North, he also tops defenders beaten.

"North is doing a passable impression of SBW with 14 offloads so far in the tournament, five ahead of his nearest challenger Medard (nine). Vakatawa, being Fijian, is also high on the list with eight. Hogg, Anthony Watson, Billy Vunipola and Mattia Bellini have six."
"
Toby Faletau (my player of the tournament so far) tops the tackle stats with 33/0. "The rest of the top five is made up of Irishmen with Jack McGrath (33 tackles, two missed), Jared Payne (31 tackles, one missed), Jamie Heaslip (31 tackles, one missed) and Tommy O'Donnell (30 tackles, two missed) all putting in mammoth shifts against Wales and France."

Lineouts - "Kruis has won 15 so far, five ahead of his nearest rivals - Devin Toner and Richie Gray. Alun Wyn Jones (eight), George Biagi (seven) and Parisse (seven, impressive for a non-lock) make up the rest."

Sexton has 100% kick rate with 7/7, Priestland is also 100% with 4/4.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

leakyboots wrote: »

Medard is #2 in metres made with ball in hand behind George North. Liam Williams and Hogg at #3 and #4... funny what happens when your 15 seeks out space instead of contact

Your team loses 2 from 2? (Talking about Hogg, obviously)

leakyboots

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Your team loses 2 from 2? (Talking about Hogg, obviously)

I think you're being a bit deliberately obtuse here.

How do you rate Scotland's attacking performances compared to ours?

I've been banging the attacking fullback drum relentlessly here for a while (to great annoyance to some no doubt )

CMOTDibbler

ClanofLams wrote: »

You're going on a per minute basis whilst I was going on number of involvements. Being subbed skews Toners numbers to a degree also. The fact that Kinsella specifically referred to Toner as best of the rest having already mentioned on connell and the back row indicates fairly clearly where he rated him.

No it doesn't. Seriously you're grasping at straws here since TOD only had 24 involvements and Toner 36 despite being subbed. TOD came on for SOB remember?

The bottom line here is that in two matches for which we have numbers, Toner has performed at least as well as many of the other players in the pack. It's certainly not a "consistent weakness in his game" as you originally characterised it.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

leakyboots wrote: »

I think you're being a bit deliberately obtuse here.

How do you rate Scotland's attacking performances compared to ours?

I've been banging the attacking fullback drum relentlessly here for a while (to great annoyance to some no doubt )

Scotland looked like they were playing more "exciting" attacking rugby than us but they still lost both their matches, so that's what I'd be looking at, at the end of the day.

The dream is to be like New Zealand and be able to execute attacking passing free flowing rugby and win matches. If we can't do that I'll settle for winning.