Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread V

jm08

former total wrote: »

Declan Fitzpatrick was given a central contract in January 2014.

Declan.

Fitzpatrick.

Can we agree that getting a central contract may not be a foolproof indication of anything?

That looks like an Ulster contract to me. It was announced with Stephen Ferris (who had lost his central contract) and the only quote is from David Humphreys . For Ryan's contract there are quotes from Philip Browne and Rob Penney.

IRFU Chief Executive Philip Browne said: "Donnacha has proven his worth to Irish rugby with his intelligent and high intensity performances for both Munster and Ireland. The IRFU are delighted to secure his future in Ireland for the next three years."

With regard to Fitzpatrick - I think that might have had more to do with John Afoa leaving than anything else.

http://www.the42.ie/stephen-ferris-ulster-fitzpatrick-1256932-Jan2014/

awec

Fitzpatrick definitely got a central deal.

I remember it because it was at the time when the talk was that Heaslip and O'Brien were heading to France and there was frustration at the IRFU spending money on Fitzpatrick instead of those two.

former total

jm08 wrote: »

That looks like an Ulster contract to me. It was announced with Stephen Ferris (who had lost his central contract) and the only quote is from David Humphreys . For Ryan's contract there are quotes from Philip Browne and Rob Penney.

No, Fitzpatrick got a central contract. A man who had one start for the national team. One start, ever.

I don't even know what your point is, I doubt you do either, but your facts are wrong.

jm08

Deleted User wrote: »

Central Contracts are not Insurance.

How many central contracts were there then? How many now?
Link?

Of course I don't. Not sure that has to do with anything. You are the person who suggested that we infer from the awarding of a central contract that the person is deemed to be an international starter. You are the one who must make that case in light of the offered examples of both Leamy and Fitzpatrick which suggest otherwise.

Cool. Tangential to the discussion, not really got anything to do with your statement about Ryan's contract suggesting him as a starter though?

You ignoring the examples which directly contradict the logic that you're trying to apply to Ryan's contract offer.

Declan Fitzpatrick didn't get a Central Contract.

You know its a Central Contract if the announcement includes a quote from Nucifora (and before his appointment Philip Browne).

http://www.the42.ie/stephen-ferris-ulster-fitzpatrick-1256932-Jan2014/

former total

jm08 wrote: »

This fact doesn't suit my argument, so I'm just going to flatly deny that it's true

He got a central contract.

jm08

jm08 wrote: »

Declan Fitzpatrick didn't get a Central Contract.

You know its a Central Contract if the announcement includes a quote from Nucifora (and before his appointment Philip Browne).

http://www.the42.ie/stephen-ferris-ulster-fitzpatrick-1256932-Jan2014/

Article you linked with details of Fitzpatrick's contract date is Jan 9th 2014, 5:38 PM

This press release here announcing Nucifora's role is dated

17 April 2014 13:08

Try again. Unless time travel is part of the next attempt?

sydthebeat

jm08 wrote: »

That looks like an Ulster contract to me.

no it was a central contract, for 2 years


http://www.emeraldrugby.com/_page-flip/Contents/Feb14cts/files/assets/common/downloads/publication.pdf

jm08

former total wrote: »

No, Fitzpatrick got a central contract. A man who had one start for the national team. One start, ever.

I don't even know what your point is, I doubt you do either, but your facts are wrong.

You have produced no evidence that Fitzpatrick was on a Central Contract.

awec

jm08 wrote: »

Declan Fitzpatrick didn't get a Central Contract.

You know its a Central Contract if the announcement includes a quote from Nucifora (and before his appointment Philip Browne).

http://www.the42.ie/stephen-ferris-ulster-fitzpatrick-1256932-Jan2014/

Yes, he did.
http://www.irishrugby.ie/news/28816.php

Declan Fitzpatrick, who has been capped seven times for Ireland, has signed a new two-year Irish contract that will keep him at Ulster until at least the summer of 2016.

former total

jm08 wrote: »

You have produced no evidence that Fitzpatrick was on a Central Contract.

Siiigh.

http://www.irishrugby.ie/news/28816.php

Declan Fitzpatrick, who has been capped seven times for Ireland, has signed a new two-year Irish contract that will keep him at Ulster until at least the summer of 2016

jm08

sydthebeat wrote: »

no it was a central contract, for 2 years


http://www.emeraldrugby.com/_page-flip/Contents/Feb14cts/files/assets/common/downloads/publication.pdf

The only reference I can see in that publication is this at the bottom of the major signings:

In addition to this, Rory Best (2yrs), John Muldoon (2yrs), Donncha Ryan (3 yrs), Declan Fitzpatrick (2yrs), Conor Murray (2yrs) and Keith Earls (2yrs) have also signed new IRFU contracts which will help ensure the home based supporters will continue to be able to watch Ireland’s best players in action week in week out for their province.

John Muldoon didn't have a central contract, and he is included along with the others who did get them.

Press Releases to demonstrate the difference between the contracts:

from IRFU website:

The IRFU and Munster are pleased to announce that Donnacha Ryan has signed a new three-year contract with the IRFU which will see him remain at Munster until at least June 2017.

Donnacha Ryan made his senior debut for Munster against the Ospreys in September 2004. The Munster Rugby Academy graduate has made 123 appearances for the province and has scored seven tries.
He made his Ireland debut in the 17-3 win over Argentina in November 2008. The 30-year-old has won 28 caps for Ireland. His last appearance for Ireland was in the final game of last season's RBS 6 Nations against Italy.

IRFU Chief Executive Philip Browne said: "Donnacha has proven his worth to Irish rugby with his intelligent and high intensity performances for both Munster and Ireland. The IRFU are delighted to secure his future in Ireland for the next three years."

Munster head coach Rob Penney added: "We are delighted that Donnacha has signed a new IRFU contract which will ensure that he remains a Munster player until the end of the 2017 season.

"Donnacha's quality and versatility will continue to be major asset for the squad as well as the key leadership role he plays both on and off the field."

Commenting on the new IRFU-funded contract, Donnacha Ryan said: "I am delighted to sign a new IRFU contract and to continue my playing career with Munster. It is an exciting time to be involved in Irish rugby and I hope to play an important role in achieving success for both Munster and Ireland."

The IRFU and Ulster Rugby are pleased to announce that forwards Declan Fitzpatrick and Stephen Ferris have both agreed new contracts

Declan Fitzpatrick, who has been capped seven times for Ireland, has signed a new two-year Irish contract that will keep him at Ulster until at least the summer of 2016.

The tighthead prop made his debut for Ulster against Biarritz in 2006. He has played 86 times for Ulster, scoring two tries. His last international cap appearance was against the All Blacks in November.

Commenting on the new contract for the 30-year-old front rower, Ulster's director of rugby David Humphreys said: "Declan is a hugely important member of our squad and has proved at both provincial and international level that he is a top performer.

"His opportunities have been restricted in recent seasons due to injury, so it is great to see him fully fit and playing some of the best rugby of his career. I am delighted that he has committed to Ulster for a further two years."
Stephen Ferris has signed a short-term extension to enable him to continue his rehabilitation from the injury that he sustained against Edinburgh in November 2012.

While the former British & Irish Lions flanker (28) has made great progress, no date has yet been set for his return to action with Ulster.
Humphreys added: "Stephen has shown remarkable drive and determination over the past year as he has worked to overcome the injury that has kept him out for so long.

"We are committed to helping him in every way possible and his new contract extension will mean that he will continue to have the best medical, physiotherapy and strength and conditioning teams around him, to help his recovery."

you literally quoted the bit that said he got a central contract...

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Did this whole argument stem from the idea that Donnacha Ryan getting a new central contract meant he was a guaranteed starter?

Teferi

Just admit you were wrong.

jm08

former total wrote: »

Siiigh.

http://www.irishrugby.ie/news/28816.php

Hanging a central contract on the use of the word Irish. Could have been someone using a template for someone else.

The way you know is by who issues the Press Release first of all and if it has a quote from either Philip Browne or David Nucifora.

If it is only the Provincial coach/representative - its not a central contract. Go check the ones we know who have central contracts and you will see that is what they all have in common - quotes from IRFU & Province (sometimes).

Keith Earls central contract renewal in 2014 announcement:

The IRFU and Munster Rugby are pleased to announce that Keith Earls has signed a new two year contract with the IRFU which will see him remain at the province until at least June 2016.

Keith made his senior debut for Munster against the Ospreys in April 2007. The Munster Rugby academy graduate has made 91 appearances for Munster scoring 26 tries.

He made his Ireland debut in the 55-0 win over Canada in Thomond Park in November 2008. The 26 year old has won 39 caps for Ireland scoring 12 tries.
Earls was Ireland's top try scorer at RWC11 with 5 tries and he toured with the Lions in 2009. His last appearance for Ireland was in the final game of last year's 6 Nations against Italy.

IRFU, CEO, Philip Browne, said, "Keith is a proven finisher and has shown guile and determination throughout his rugby career for both Munster and Ireland. We wish him a speedy recovery from his recent injury and look forward to seeing Keith play for Munster and Ireland over the next 2 years."

Munster Coach Rob Penney said; "We are delighted that Keith has signed a new IRFU contract which will see him remain a Munster player until the end of the 2016 season. Keith is an exciting player whose speed and acceleration can cause havoc for opposition defenses. As a senior member of the squad he will play a huge role in the future success of the province."

jm08

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Did this whole argument stem from the idea that Donnacha Ryan getting a new central contract meant he was a guaranteed starter?

It stems from this comment and the inaccuracy of him only featured in the 2013 6Ns.

Donnacha Ryan tends to get overstated on here, he's 32 years old and has only featured in one 6N as a starter, 2013. He's suffered with injuries the last few years but he still hasn't shown enough in his career to claim that he would have been or will be a certain starter for Ireland.

I contend that that he has shown enough in his career to get a 3 Year Central Contract from Uncle Joe.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

jm08 wrote: »

It stems from this comment and the inaccuracy of him only featured in the 2013 6Ns.



I contend that that he has shown enough in his career to get a 3 Year Central Contract from Uncle Joe.

What's the relevance of a Central Contract though, other than keeping the player in Ireland. The deal could just as likely have been to ensure his Munster future rather than his international one. A CC means the IRFU pay the wages, right? And he's there and available IF they need him. It doesn't necessarily mean they see him as a first choice player.

jm08

Deleted User wrote: »

you literally quoted the bit that said he got a central contract...

It said Irish contract, not IRFU contract which is how D Ryan's and Keith Earls central contracts are announced.

I can't find another contract announcement that describes a contract as 'Irish'.

Yeah_Right

jm08 wrote: »

Hanging a central contract on the use of the word Irish. Could have been someone using a template for someone else.

The way you know is by who issues the Press Release first of all and if it has a quote from either Philip Browne or David Nucifora.

If it is only the Provincial coach/representative - its not a central contract. Go check the ones we know who have central contracts and you will see that is what they all have in common - quotes from IRFU & Province (sometimes).

Keith Earls central contract renewal in 2014 announcement:

Seriously, you need to learn when to stop digging.

In regards to Declan Fitzpatrick, is he still playing? I try to watch Ulster whenever I get the chance and I don't remember seeing him recently. In fairness, I never thought he was that good and about 10 guys would need to be injured before he gets a green jersey again.

sydthebeat

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Seriously, you need to learn when to stop digging.

In regards to Declan Fitzpatrick, is he still playing? I try to watch Ulster whenever I get the chance and I don't remember seeing him recently. In fairness, I never thought he was that good and about 10 guys would need to be injured before he gets a green jersey again.

unfortunately retired due to concussion issues

former total

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Seriously, you need to learn when to stop digging.

In regards to Declan Fitzpatrick, is he still playing? I try to watch Ulster whenever I get the chance and I don't remember seeing him recently. In fairness, I never thought he was that good and about 10 guys would need to be injured before he gets a green jersey again.

He had to retire from concussion, last year I think.

rsh118

sydthebeat wrote: »

unfortunately retired due to concussion issues

Feel for Deccie Fitz, he really was a very solid scrummager.

Yeah_Right

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Did this whole argument stem from the idea that Donnacha Ryan getting a new central contract meant he was a guaranteed starter?

Yes. It's the new way of selecting the match day 23. Only players with central contracts can be picked.

rsh118

rsh118 wrote: »

Feel for Deccie Fitz, he really was a very solid scrummager.

More than a scrummager tbh. Had a great cameo vs the ABs I thought.

Yeah_Right

sydthebeat wrote: »

unfortunately retired due to concussion issues

Now I feel kinda bad for having a dig at him.:o

And it's passed.

sydthebeat

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Yes. It's the new way of selecting the match day 23. Only players with central contracts can be picked.

yeah... such a "poor mouth" argument

former total

jm08 wrote: »

It said Irish contract, not IRFU contract which is how D Ryan's and Keith Earls central contracts are announced.

I can't find another contract announcement that describes a contract as 'Irish'.

Rory Best, undisputed first choice and Irish captain, only got an "Irish contract"
http://www.irishrugby.ie/news/36323.php#.VsXFCvmLRpg

Andrew Trimble, he's not too bad:
http://www.irishrugby.ie/news/34003.php#.VsXFPfmLRpg

Renowned journeyman Tommy Bowe:
http://www.irishrugby.ie/mobile/news/32959.php


I await the next twist in the tale with what can only be described as morbid fascination.

jm08

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

What's the relevance of a Central Contract though, other than keeping the player in Ireland. The deal could just as likely have been to ensure his Munster future rather than his international one. A CC means the IRFU pay the wages, right? And he's there and available IF they need him. It doesn't necessarily mean they see him as a first choice player.

The relevance is that IRFU central contracts are worth more than a Provincial Contract and the Ireland coaching staff manage playing time - i.e., first priority is Ireland, not Province.

He has shown enough though to suggest that the IRFU considered him a first choice player as at that stage he and POC were the only 2 Locks with Ireland CC contracts. Toner was still on a Provincial Contract back then and has only recently now secured one.

It seems all the players want them - Marty Moore wanted one and is now heading off to England.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

jm08 wrote: »

It said Irish contract, not IRFU contract which is how D Ryan's and Keith Earls central contracts are announced.

I can't find another contract announcement that describes a contract as 'Irish'.

What do you think an "Irish" contract is then?

They're just contracted to play international rugby and don't have to play for a province?

awec

jm08 wrote: »

It said Irish contract, not IRFU contract which is how D Ryan's and Keith Earls central contracts are announced.

I can't find another contract announcement that describes a contract as 'Irish'.

The Rape of Lucretia

awec wrote: »

Grammar Nazi, but its important to get SW details right : Should be "Digging, stop you must".

jm08

former total wrote: »

Rory Best, undisputed first choice and Irish captain, only got an "Irish contract"
http://www.irishrugby.ie/news/36323.php#.VsXFCvmLRpg

Andrew Trimble, he's not too bad:
http://www.irishrugby.ie/news/34003.php#.VsXFPfmLRpg

Renowned journeyman Tommy Bowe:
http://www.irishrugby.ie/mobile/news/32959.php


I await the next twist in the tale with what can only be described as morbid fascination.

Thanks for linking all of those. You will notice that all of those three Central Contracts have a quote from Nucifora and an Ulster Representative (Logan/ Kiss or Bryn). Using 'Irish' must be an Ulster thing as the other Provinces refer to contracts as IRFU

http://www.connachtrugby.ie/muldoon-extends-impressive-career-at-connacht/#ConnachtNews

I've have brought to your attention that on the Declan Fitzpatrick / Stephen Ferris joint announcement, only David Humphreys is quoted and the42 goes onto say that securing Declan Fitz was important as John Afoa was leaving.

Shefwedfan

jm08 wrote: »

The relevance is that IRFU central contracts are worth more than a Provincial Contract and the Ireland coaching staff manage playing time - i.e., first priority is Ireland, not Province.

He has shown enough though to suggest that the IRFU considered him a first choice player as at that stage he and POC were the only 2 Locks with Ireland CC contracts. Toner was still on a Provincial Contract back then and has only recently now secured one.

It seems all the players want them - Marty Moore wanted one and is now heading off to England.

Hold on a second here...

You are making no sense here at all.....

is your point that Irish players with central contracts are treated better than Irish players without a central contract?

dub_skav

I wonder what price the pints will be in Twickers?
How many burgers will they sell?
How many pints of Guinness will the cabbage patch pub sell?

Everybody, please engage with my new direction of gripping questions; answer them, add your own, for the love of BOD anything but this

jm08

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

What do you think an "Irish" contract is then?

They're just contracted to play international rugby and don't have to play for a province?

I think it is how Ulster write their Press Releases. Both Munster & Connacht refer to them as IRFU rather than Irish.

Leinster lump them all together, but still refers to them as new IRFU contracts (even though they are Provincial contracts - they mention that SOB is on a central contract in the press release).

http://www.leinsterrugby.ie/news/14649.php#.VsXLvOntBUQ

stephen_n

dub_skav wrote: »

I wonder what price the pints will be in Twickers?
How many burgers will they sell?
How many pints of Guinness will the cabbage patch pub sell?

Everybody, please engage with my new direction of gripping questions; answer them, add your own, for the love of BOD anything but this

Depends on if the vendors are on central contracts or....

CMOTDibbler

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Hold on a second here...

You are making no sense here at all.....

is your point that Irish players with central contracts are treated better than Irish players without a central contract?

The whole point is to drag the discussion out to the point where nobody remembers what the point was and he can claim he was right all along. :rolleyes:

jm08

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Hold on a second here...

You are making no sense here at all.....

is your point that Irish players with central contracts are treated better than Irish players without a central contract?

If you regard being better paid, yes they are treated better.

Shefwedfan

jm08 wrote: »

If you regard being better paid, yes they are treated better.

That is incorrect but I am sure you will post 50 times to try and convince me you are correct but you will still be incorrect:P

Shefwedfan

jm08 wrote: »

If you regard being better paid, yes they are treated better.

I will quote yourself in regards to this

jm08 wrote: »

I do recall that Luke Fitzgerald was offered a central contract at the time at a reduced level which he turned down and which the IRFU later withdrew.

Luke rejected the IRFU contract and got a better contract direct from Leinster.

So you can now start to argue with yourself :P

jm08

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

The whole point is to drag the discussion out to the point where nobody remembers what the point was and he can claim he was right all along. :rolleyes:

The point was that Donnacha Ryan was highly regarded by Uncle Joe as he got a 3 year Central Contract.

The secondary debate is whether Declan Fitzpatrick had a central contract or not.

Those who claim he had are hanging it on the use of the word 'Irish contracts' in Ulster Press Releases whereas the other Provinces refer to them as 'IRFU contracts'.

For me the deciding factor is who is quoted.

For Central Contracts you will get a combination of Nucifora/Browne and Provincial Coach/CEO

For Provincial contracts, you will get a quote only from the Provincial Coach/CEO.

Please note that they are all IRFU contracts.

I'd just like to say I'm sorry to everyone else.

JPNelsforearm

""We've got to win the Aussie Rules contest," said Jones.
"That is the first thing we have got to do. They kick 60pc of their possession. If we can win that Aussie Rules battle, we will go a long way to winning the game.
"Ireland are a clever side. They're one of the best-coached sides in world rugby, full stop. They're very resourceful. They've chosen to go in this direction in terms of their style of play and they've won the last two Six Nations titles doing it. Who am I to criticise them?"


LOLOLOL


http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/six-nations/england-coach-eddie-jones-in-aussie-rules-jibe-at-ireland-34463713.html

CMOTDibbler

jm08 wrote: »

The point was that Donnacha Ryan was highly regarded by Uncle Joe as he got a 3 year Central Contract.

Are you sure that contracts and their agreement is in the domain of Joe Schmidt?

Especially since (as you say) their announcement is made by either Nucifora or before him Browne.

CMOTDibbler

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

""We've got to win the Aussie Rules contest," said Jones.
"That is the first thing we have got to do. They kick 60pc of their possession. If we can win that Aussie Rules battle, we will go a long way to winning the game.
"Ireland are a clever side. They're one of the best-coached sides in world rugby, full stop. They're very resourceful. They've chosen to go in this direction in terms of their style of play and they've won the last two Six Nations titles doing it. Who am I to criticise them?"


LOLOLOL


http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/six-nations/england-coach-eddie-jones-in-aussie-rules-jibe-at-ireland-34463713.html

He's such a joker that Eddie Jones lad. 60% of possession kicked

Now the real question is what he's trying to acheive with that grossly exaggerated stat. Stop us kicking?

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

jm08 wrote: »

I think it is how Ulster write their Press Releases. Both Munster & Connacht refer to them as IRFU rather than Irish.

So they're the same thing, just worded differently, is what you're saying.

But....

jm08 wrote: »

For me the deciding factor is who is quoted.

For Central Contracts you will get a combination of Nucifora/Browne and Provincial Coach/CEO

For Provincial contracts, you will get a quote only from the Provincial Coach/CEO.

Please note that they are all IRFU contracts.

.... only if they have quotes from one or both of these people on the press release.

So essentially there are IRFU central contracts, Irish contracts, provincial contracts but they're all IRFU contracts....

Have I got that right?

Shefwedfan

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

""We've got to win the Aussie Rules contest," said Jones.
"That is the first thing we have got to do. They kick 60pc of their possession. If we can win that Aussie Rules battle, we will go a long way to winning the game.
"Ireland are a clever side. They're one of the best-coached sides in world rugby, full stop. They're very resourceful. They've chosen to go in this direction in terms of their style of play and they've won the last two Six Nations titles doing it. Who am I to criticise them?"


LOLOLOL


http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/six-nations/england-coach-eddie-jones-in-aussie-rules-jibe-at-ireland-34463713.html

Send on eddie this video and say it is from the France match : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YRBaGMMKCCs

Pudsy33

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

""We've got to win the Aussie Rules contest," said Jones.
"That is the first thing we have got to do. They kick 60pc of their possession. If we can win that Aussie Rules battle, we will go a long way to winning the game.
"Ireland are a clever side. They're one of the best-coached sides in world rugby, full stop. They're very resourceful. They've chosen to go in this direction in terms of their style of play and they've won the last two Six Nations titles doing it. Who am I to criticise them?"


LOLOLOL


http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/six-nations/england-coach-eddie-jones-in-aussie-rules-jibe-at-ireland-34463713.html

England's ganmeplan in the first two matches under Jones has been to leather the ball up in the air as soon as they got into the opposition half. Who are you to criticize is right Eddie!

jm08

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Are you sure that contracts and their agreement is in the domain of Joe Schmidt?

Especially since (as you say) their announcement is made by either Nucifora or before him Browne.

I'd imagine that Joe Schmdt would have input on Central Contracts only.

jm08

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

So they're the same thing, just worded differently, is what you're saying.

But....

.... only if they have quotes from one or both of these people on the press release.

So essentially there are IRFU central contracts, Irish contracts, provincial contracts but they're all IRFU contracts....

Have I got that right?

Yes you have. They are all IRFU contracts with different grades (with Central Contract being the best grade).

Edit: I saw somewhere recently that the IRFU give the first 90K towards a Senior Provincial Contract, and the Province have to come up with the rest from their own resources.

A Central Contract is fully paid by IRFU from central funds.