Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread V

jm08

sydthebeat wrote: »

so phog was incorrect to lump strauss in with payne and stander

Be pedantic if you want, but at the time Straus first represented Ireland, he was not representing his country.

Tox56

m@cc@ wrote: »

He represented Ireland before becoming a citizen. So being 'now Irish' is irrelvant. Jeez, some people.

Jesus this is a stupid argument, the statement:

He like Strauss and Payne can play international rugby without representing their country.

Is simply wrong (with regards to Strauss), he's an Irish citizen, same as SOB or POM

m@cc@

Tox56 wrote: »

Jesus this is a stupid argument, the statement:

He like Strauss and Payne can play international rugby without representing their country.

Is simply wrong (with regards to Strauss), he's an Irish citizen, same as SOB or POM

You're bascially creating a argument out of the tense which someone has used. You are well aware of the point that is being made but have somehow diverted it in a discussion about Strauss' citizenship.

Tox56

m@cc@ wrote: »

You're bascially creating a argument out of the tense which someone has used. You are well aware of the point that is being made but have somehow diverted it in a discussion about Strauss' citizenship.

Yeah, in a way I am, because the tense is pretty crucial to the whole thing. There is a big difference in my mind between representing your country and playing for a completely different country to the one you are a citizen of, and Strauss is representing his country the same as Cronin or Best.

In terms of the project player debate would you refuse citizens of Ireland the opportunity to play for Ireland? I'm guessing most people wouldn't, and personally I think citizenship should be what determines whether a player can 'qualify' for Ireland, not the 3 year rule

sydthebeat

m@cc@ wrote: »

You're bascially creating a argument out of the tense which someone has used. You are well aware of the point that is being made but have somehow diverted it in a discussion about Strauss' citizenship.

:rolleyes:

'citizenship' is absolutely relevant to a discussion over who can "represent their country or not"...

m@cc@

Tox56 wrote: »

Yeah, in a way I am, because the tense is pretty crucial to the whole thing. There is a big difference in my mind between representing your country and playing for a completely different country to the one you are a citizen of, and Strauss is representing his country the same as Cronin or Best.

In terms of the project player debate would you refuse citizens of Ireland the opportunity to play for Ireland? I'm guessing most people wouldn't, and personally I think citizenship should be what determines whether a player can 'qualify' for Ireland, not the 3 year rule

"He like Strauss has done and Payne is doing can play international rugby without representing their country."

Better?

sydthebeat

m@cc@ wrote: »

"He like Strauss has done and Payne is doing can play international rugby without representing their country."

Better?

nope :P

m@cc@

sydthebeat wrote: »

:rolleyes:

'citizenship' is absolutely relevant to a discussion over who can "represent their country or not"...

But it's not a barrier in rugby terms is it? Strauss has been playing for the last 3 years as a SA citizen and only become an Irish citizen in September.

sydthebeat

m@cc@ wrote: »

But it's not a barrier in rugby terms is it? Strauss has been playing for the last 3 years as a SA citizen and only become an Irish citizen in September.

yep, i completely agree, thats factual.

dr.kenneth noisewater

Who do people think should be given a shot at No.8, think Heaslip has been average enough the last couple of seasons with a few good games but he's needs a challenge I think. Do ye think he will get the captaincy as well?

CIARAN_BOYLE

dr.kenneth noisewater wrote: »

Who do people think should be given a shot at No.8, think Heaslip has been average enough the last couple of seasons with a few good games but he's needs a challenge I think. Do ye think he will get the captaincy as well?

Well he has outplayed every other IQ 8 by some distance and is the vice captain so I would imagine that he will continue at 8 and take the captaincy.

sydthebeat

dr.kenneth noisewater wrote: »

Who do people think should be given a shot at No.8, think Heaslip has been average enough the last couple of seasons with a few good games but he's needs a challenge I think. Do ye think he will get the captaincy as well?

everyone needs to be challanged, but for a guy to be unchallanged and still have his consistent levels of performance says a lot about the guy.

Stander will be his nearest challanger i think, but hes as of yet unproven at international level.

sullivlo

dr.kenneth noisewater wrote: »

Who do people think should be given a shot at No.8, think Heaslip has been average enough the last couple of seasons with a few good games but he's needs a challenge I think. Do ye think he will get the captaincy as well?

This is the line that gets trotted out at every opportunity. Heaslip doesn't make as many massive gainline busting runs any more, but that's no longer his job in the team since other ball carriers have emerged. He consistently tops the tackle leaderboard and generally makes a nuisance of himself around the park. His control at the base of the scrum is also possibly the best that any 8 has in the world currently. I don't think there are any IQ 8's near him currently tbh.

sullivlo

Just got a notification from ultimate rugby that there are unconfirmed reports that Tommy Bowe will miss the rest of the season with injury.

Not as big a loss as others given the strength and depth of the squad in the back 3, but even still, another starter lost!

accidentprone1

QuinDixie wrote: »

i hope some day stander gets to represent his country, but he simply is not good enough at the moment. He may have to return home to get his chance anyway.

Edit: Woops, I'm late with my post as the last page didn't load, but I suppose this applies retrospectively...

case885

Best as captain for me with POM next in line.

sullivlo

case885 wrote: »

Best as captain for me with POM next in line.

POM is out for the season.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

sullivlo wrote: »

Just got a notification from ultimate rugby that there are unconfirmed reports that Tommy Bowe will miss the rest of the season with injury.

Not as big a loss as others given the strength and depth of the squad in the back 3, but even still, another starter lost!

Some of these injuries could be a good thing in a way. Personally I think our backs need almost a complete overhaul. Bowe has been patchy for a while now anyway but his experience is always going to stand to him when it comes to team selection. This could be the opportunity for someone else to step up and break into the squad.

Of course there's always the possibility (probability) that we'll end up sticking with the same old names anyway, Fitzgerald, Earls etc. etc. but even then it gives one of them the chance to get a proper run of games in one position. Unless one of them gets injured, again.

case885

sullivlo wrote:

POM is out for the season.

As in he succeeds him when best retires.

Thanos

I would go straight to POM now, he is a great player and leads well, get him in early and he will be around for ages.

LuckyLloyd

Don't think Heaslip is a great Captain personally. POM probably the right long term option.

jacothelad

Cronin The Destroyer wrote: »

I'd have thought Stander clearly has the edge over Henry when you take out the fact that Henry has had game time with IRE.

Henry is a 7. stander is a 6 / 8. Great player and a fine addition to the IRFU's team of players.

sydthebeat wrote: »

so phog was incorrect to lump strauss in with payne and stander

...and Best, Henry, Henderson, Cave, Trimble, Gilroy, McCloskey, Olding, Herring et al. They don't 'play for their country'. But then neither do Ross, McGrath, Healy, Heaslip. POM, Zebo et al. Neither of the countries of these players has a rugby team. Too many rugby 'fans' forget about this. It's about rugby, not politics, citizenship or any other reason to get on a high horse.

Clearlier

sullivlo wrote: »

POM is out for the season.

I was assuming that he meant to say POM for captain but Best in the interim because at 33 Best is unlikely to be captain for more than a year or two and I'd prefer a captain to be available for the longer term. A great option though if we wanted to develop future captains within the team during the next year or two and he'd certainly deserve it.

Looking towards that longer term it's a pity that neither Henderson nor Murray look like the kind of guys who would be captain. Has Henshaw any captaincy experience? I'd prefer to steer clear of Sexton as he's got enough on his plate at outhalf and it's not like he'll hold back if he has something to say.

Heaslip would be a pretty good option too - I was impressed with his on-field leadership against Argentina when we came out of the blocks so slowly. OTOH I just don't see him as captain for reasons that I can't define so totally unfair - also at 31 even with his Wolverine blood he's not much better than 50/50 to be starting come the next world cup.

Journeyman_1

Jack McGrath could be a future captain, even though it's not great to have a front rower as your captain these days.

jacothelad

case885 wrote: »

Best as captain for me with POM next in line.

For all the many fine rugby related attributes that Rory displays, being a captain is not one that has been conspicuously evident at Ulster. Personally, I'd give it to Sexton if Heaslip is not so endorsed. I think Heaslip is maybe a bit too laid back. Just a feeling though and untouchable at 8. I have often wondered how Henderson might have developed there.

.ak

Heaslip has been a very good captain for Leinster - his decision making and ability to remove himself from the thick of the fray and remain calm will always have him poll position. He's also a dab hand at getting on the good side of refs.

I think best leads by example but he's poor with refs - always arguing and never getting on their good side. Ulster have suffered at times because of best's discipline.

thomond2006

IRFU hiring players to play for Ireland aside, Stander is absolutely in the mix if he continues his current form.

The Lost Sheep

Journeyman_1 wrote: »

Jack McGrath could be a future captain, even though it's not great to have a front rower as your captain these days.

Could he? Why? Has he captained sides before?
Front row as a captain isn't an issue. Why do you think that?

jm08

Tox56 wrote: »

Yeah, in a way I am, because the tense is pretty crucial to the whole thing. There is a big difference in my mind between representing your country and playing for a completely different country to the one you are a citizen of, and Strauss is representing his country the same as Cronin or Best.

In terms of the project player debate would you refuse citizens of Ireland the opportunity to play for Ireland? I'm guessing most people wouldn't, and personally I think citizenship should be what determines whether a player can 'qualify' for Ireland, not the 3 year rule

Doug Howlett wouldn't be eligible to play for Ireland even though he is a citizen. Nacewa couldn't play for NZ either, despite being a citizen.

I'd also agree about the citizenship thing - Straus would probably not be playing for Ireland in this world cup if he wasn't capped on his 3 year residency.

jacothelad

.ak wrote: »

Heaslip has been a very good captain for Leinster - his decision making and ability to remove himself from the thick of the fray and remain calm will always have him poll position. He's also a dab hand at getting on the good side of refs.

I think best leads by example but he's poor with refs - always arguing and never getting on their good side. Ulster have suffered at times because of best's discipline.

You are right that he is not the man but you are in fact wrong on all other counts about Best. He never, ever argues with referees in any way, even politely. His problem is the exact opposite of what you claim. He is actually too nice. Nor does he have discipline problems from which Ulster have suffered. Where did you get this from? He has had very few cards in his career which, given the way he plays is pretty good. Nor does he retaliate when on the receiving end of foul play which is not uncommon. Weird assertions.

Eoin

I say this every time it comes up, but it's just so pointless to suggest who the best captain would be unless you're in the squad or the management team. Sometimes the best captain is the one that lets the other leaders in the squad do the big speeches and chest beating. And the player that does the big speeches might not be the best person to make calm decisions.

It's as much about the dynamic of the squad as it is about the individuals who might be captain.

Journeyman_1

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Could he? Why? Has he captained sides before?
Front row as a captain isn't an issue. Why do you think that?

I remember hearing that he captained through age grades, may be wrong about that. The problem with having a front row as your captain is that they rarely play past 65 minutes now, and when you have a strong replacement, normally closer to 50 minutes, so you then need to also have a strong VC that is likely to still be on the pitch. It leads to a loss of continuity and sometimes a player being left on the pitch longer than they would if they weren't captain which may affect performance.

jm08

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Well he has outplayed every other IQ 8 by some distance and is the vice captain so I would imagine that he will continue at 8 and take the captaincy.

He didn't outplay James Coughlan.:rolleyes:

The Lost Sheep

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Could he? Why? Has he captained sides before?
Front row as a captain isn't an issue. Why do you think that?

It kind of is. Front Rows rarely if ever play 80 minutes anymore.

On JM as a captain choice, himself, Healy, Cronin, Kilcoyne and Buckley will hopefully be piling loads of pressure on each other to be better and better. I think McGrath has performed to the highest standard more frequently than any of them over the last 10 months, but that's no guarantee that it would continue.

Though being captain shouldn't instantly earn you an auto-pick (see England's issues), it would be more useful if they were likely to be in every matchday squad (injury permitting etc).

Over the next 18 months, the only players in that category in Ireland are likely to be Best, Toner, Henderson, Ryan, Heaslip, SOB, POM*, Murray, Sexton, Henshaw, Kearney (and hopefully Healy if he can get himself back up to speed).

* POM's injury at a disaster of a time as it is likely to put a big dent in his availability

jm08

jm08 wrote: »

He didn't outplay James Coughlan.:rolleyes:

He did though of course.

jacothelad

Deleted User wrote: »

He did though of course.

He wasn't the only one either.

The Lost Sheep

Journeyman_1 wrote: »

I remember hearing that he captained through age grades, may be wrong about that. The problem with having a front row as your captain is that they rarely play past 65 minutes now, and when you have a strong replacement, normally closer to 50 minutes, so you then need to also have a strong VC that is likely to still be on the pitch. It leads to a loss of continuity and sometimes a player being left on the pitch longer than they would if they weren't captain which may affect performance.

I don't think he did. Was same age group as likes of Peter O Mahony who would have been captaining teams.
I know where you are coming from and 80 minutes and captain should be playing all or very close to all and a lot of front rows only play 60-65 in a lot of games but wouldn't see it as an issue....

phog

sydthebeat wrote: »

do you realise that strauss is an irish citizen ?

Yes, I don't see the relevance to the point I made.

You do realise had played for Ireland when he wasn't a citizen of Ireland.

jacothelad

phog wrote: »

Yes, I don't see the relevance to the point I made.

You do realise had played for Ireland when he wasn't a citizen of Ireland.

Why is that important to you?

phog

jacothelad wrote: »

Why is that important to you?

jm08

jacothelad wrote: »

Why is that important to you?

Perhaps a better way of putting it would to be eligible for Irish citizenship by being born on the island of Ireland. There is no such thing as citizenship of Northern Ireland.

Presumably Payne could apply for British citizenship (or perhaps he is already a British citizen through heritage from other parts of UK).

Yeah_Right

I don't think the captain playing the full 80 minutes is extremely vital. Teams need leadership groups. There needs to be 4 or 5 players who could be captain on the pitch. These guys should all be leaders and decision makers. Therefore if the captain gets subbed or injured there is no loss in leadership.

This was an issue that Ireland faced against Argentina. Missing Payne, Sexton, POC and POM gutted there leadership group.

tbm

How old was Warburton when he got the Wales captaincy? It would be nice to see a young guy get it who isn't a provincial captain. Henderson has been mentioned. Henshaw? On current form you'd have them both in a first 15. McGrath should be considered too. Being a front row has done Stephen Moore no harm. You have so many leaders in the team already that any greenhorn would have loads help and support around.

Heaslip though. Outrageously consistent and never gets injured. Ideal captain material in so many ways, but I dunno.

The Lost Sheep

phog wrote: »

Whats confusing about Jaco's post?

tbm wrote: »

How old was Warburton when he got the Wales captaincy? It would be nice to see a young guy get it who isn't a provincial captain. Henderson has been mentioned. Henshaw? On current form you'd have them both in a first 15. McGrath should be considered too. Being a front row has done Stephen Moore no harm. You have so many leaders in the team already that any greenhorn would have loads help and support around.

Heaslip though. Outrageously consistent and never gets injured. Ideal captain material in so many ways, but I dunno.

When you say young how young? Why Henderson? Has he ever captained sides before? Will McGrath be an out and out first choice?

Journeyman_1

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

I don't think he did. Was same age group as likes of Peter O Mahony who would have been captaining teams.
I know where you are coming from and 80 minutes and captain should be playing all or very close to all and a lot of front rows only play 60-65 in a lot of games but wouldn't see it as an issue....

I meant at Club level more than national, but in any case he just seems like a leader. Fair enough re not playing 80, buts it's still relevant imo.

jm08

tbm wrote: »

How old was Warburton when he got the Wales captaincy? It would be nice to see a young guy get it who isn't a provincial captain. Henderson has been mentioned. Henshaw? On current form you'd have them both in a first 15. McGrath should be considered too. Being a front row has done Stephen Moore no harm. You have so many leaders in the team already that any greenhorn would have loads help and support around.

Heaslip though. Outrageously consistent and never gets injured. Ideal captain material in so many ways, but I dunno.

AWJ is the real captain of Wales. I think we saw from last week that there is a lack of leadership in that team. Best was the only one who stepped up. Heislip did his own job well enough, but he didn't inspire the rest to raise their level and that is what a good captain will do.

LuckyLloyd

What do we think a "good" Captain does well? They should be a strong impactful player who inspire through deed as a given. But what other aspects do people see as important?

- Communicating effectively with the referee to influence them as much as possible;
- Making good penalty use decisions;
- Knowing when to slow down the game;
- Communicating necessary on the fly tactical adjustments;

Do people agree / disagree with the above? What am I missing?

phog

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Whats confusing about Jaco's post?

I'm confused at to why he addressed that question to me.

Clearlier

jm08 wrote: »

Best was the only one who stepped up. Heislip did his own job well enough, but he didn't inspire the rest to raise their level and that is what a good captain will do.

There's obviously a lot more to being a captain than on-field captaincy and I've already said that I don't really like the idea of Heaslip as captain but I disagree about Heaslip not stepping up against Argentina. He adapted his game in the first 20 to lead by example (one monster hit and strip in the Argentinian 22 was a gamechanger that we didn't take advantage of as well as a massive clearout at a ruck come to mind) as well as pulling the team together to talk to them after the tries. Ireland were lethargic, Heaslip wasn't and I thought that he was one of the key reasons that we gained a foothold in the game. What I didn't like about his captaincy was that he hadn't managed to get the team ready to play. Obviously it's not just his responsibility but we were missing an edge and as captain he had a role to ensure that the team had that edge coming onto the pitch.

hogandrew

jm08 wrote: »

AWJ is the real captain of Wales. I think we saw from last week that there is a lack of leadership in that team. Best was the only one who stepped up. Heislip did his own job well enough, but he didn't inspire the rest to raise their level and that is what a good captain will do.

A captains role is to go between referee and other players mainly. Anyone who needs someone else to inspire them in a world cup quarter final shouldn't be there. I think pom is too hot headed for captain and if he brought that under control he wouldn't be the same player.

What is needed in a captain is a clever player who is able to keep his emotion under control on the field, make decisions and organise. Who that is is impossible to know from the outside. Personally I think a scrum half is the best option for the position due to being a link between backs and forwards as well as often being next to the ref and in the perfect position to see everything.

Murray certainly looks calm and intelligent, he will be around for the next 4 years, I'd say he's as close to a definite starter for that period as we have and he's vastly experienced at this stage. That would be my shout but very hard to call