Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread V

CMOTDibbler

wp_rathead wrote: »

DONT.. EVEN.. JEST..:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

Ehhh, he means red

wp_rathead

salmocab

Ill be honest, I did not see a day long argument about central contracts coming. A particular high point was the did Declan Fitzpatrick have a central contract or not. If nobody knows one way or the other and seemingly can't find any real evidence other than if the word Irish was in a press statement or not it certainly isn't worth an argument.

rsh118

salmocab wrote: »

Ill be honest, I did not see a day long argument about central contracts coming. A particular high point was the did Declan Fitzpatrick have a central contract or not. If nobody knows one way or the other and seemingly can't find any real evidence other than if the word Irish was in a press statement or not it certainly isn't worth an argument.

He wasn't on one though...

I jest, I jest! I have no idea. Central contracts all round!!

The Rape of Lucretia

Not sure Fitzpatrick could have been on an Irish contract. Central contact yes, as with any of the Northern Irish players. But dont think any of then can be on 'Irish' contract in the strict sense since not really Irish in that limited context. FWIW though, I thought he was only on an Ulster contract anyway.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Not significantly important really. In theory there's more money available centrally but that's not writ in stone.

I suppose having the IRFU pay a players wages is beneficial to the provinces too. Frees up a bit of cash. I guess it kind of acts as an incentive too for the provinces to be producing international players. That's unlikely to be a province's main motivation, obviously, to provide international players, especially if they then up and leave you as soon as they can.

connemara man

rsh118 wrote: »

He wasn't on one though...

I jest, I jest! I have no idea. Central contracts all round!!

Central contracts for some........

Little Ireland flags for everyone,

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

What a week, eh?

We've sacked Joe, debated the merits of Devin Toner vs Donnacha Ryan, for some reason. We've invented brand new contract types to award people, and we're only half way through the between match time! Who knows what next week will bring

rsh118

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

What a week, eh?

We've sacked Joe, debated the merits of Devin Toner vs Donnacha Ryan, for some reason. We've invented brand new contract types to award people, and we're only half way through the between match time! Who knows what next week will bring

I didn't want to to do this, but...

Sexton is out of form, Leinster should be starting Madigan at 10 and so should Joe for Ireland and both Madigan, Keatley, JJ, and Windsor are better than Paddy Jackson.

C'mon, we have a whole week to fill!

shuffol

jm08 wrote: »

Factually incorrectly. D Ryan was starting lock for 2012 & 2013 6Ns.

He showed enough to be awarded a 3 Year Central Contract in December 2013. Dev Toner has only recently got a 2 year central contracts. Joe Schmidt was Ireland coach at the time.

Factually incorrect though I suspect you may already have been aware of this.

In 2012 he was behind DOC though was clearly outperforming him when he came on, he only started the last 2 games due to an injury to POC. He then started the 2013 6N which POC missed. He's a fine player but to suggest based on his career to date that he'll be a guaranteed starter for Ireland when fit is reaching a bit.

Scythica

rsh118 wrote: »

I didn't want to to do this, but...

Sexton is out of form, Leinster should be starting Madigan at 10 and so should Joe for Ireland and both Madigan, Keatley, JJ, and Windsor are better than Paddy Jackson.

C'mon, we have a whole week to fill!

POM will never be first choice back row for Ireland again.

(In case we get through your points)

We could always revisit Boss vs Marmion

jm08

shuffol wrote: »

Factually incorrect though I suspect you may already have been aware of this.

In 2012 he was behind DOC though was clearly outperforming him when he came on, he only started the last 2 games due to an injury to POC. He then started the 2013 6N which POC missed.He's a fine player but to suggest based on his career to date that he'll be a guaranteed starter for Ireland when fit is reaching a bit.

Fair play for coming back to admit that 'he is a fine player' and he has now featured in more than one 6Ns.

Donnacha Ryan tends to get overstated on here, he's 32 years old and has only featured in one 6N as a starter, 2013. He's suffered with injuries the last few years but he still hasn't shown enough in his career to claim that he would have been or will be a certain starter for Ireland.

I still contend that the IRFU must have seen something in him to give him a 3 year central contract in December 2013 and that he would have been a certain starter for the next couple of years, not least because DOC & POC were coming up to retirement. Lets not forget that in the 12-13 season Devon Toner was the bench lock in Heineken Cup Games, only starting 2 out of the 6 pool games for Leinster, so the cupboard looked fairly bare.

CMOTDibbler

jm08 wrote: »

I still contend that the IRFU must have seen something in him to give him a 3 year central contract in December 2013 and that he would have been a certain starter for the next couple of years, not least because DOC & POC were coming up to retirement. Lets not forget that in the 12-13 season Devon Toner was the bench lock in Heineken Cup Games, only starting 2 out of the 6 pool games for Leinster, so the cupboard looked fairly bare.

*Sigh*

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

If you're going to diss the greatest living lighthouse of our time, at least spell his name correctly.

Devin



Devon

mogwai81

Posted this in the Ulster thread, probably more relevant here.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/six-nations/gutted-jackson-reveals-his-frustration-at-joe-schmidt-selection-34467090.html

Not sure what else Paddy Jackson needs to do. Any talk of his poor kicking is lazy as he has vastly improved this year.http://rugby.statbunker.com/competitions/KickingStrikeRate?comp_id=500

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

mogwai81 wrote: »

Posted this in the Ulster thread, probably more relevant here.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/six-nations/gutted-jackson-reveals-his-frustration-at-joe-schmidt-selection-34467090.html

Not sure what else Paddy Jackson needs to do. Any talk of his poor kicking is lazy as he has vastly improved this year.http://rugby.statbunker.com/competitions/KickingStrikeRate?comp_id=500

It's good to know he's frustrated about it. Sometimes he seems like such a happy wee chap that you wonder if he's having a great time whether he's playing or not.

.ak

mogwai81 wrote: »

Posted this in the Ulster thread, probably more relevant here.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/six-nations/gutted-jackson-reveals-his-frustration-at-joe-schmidt-selection-34467090.html

Not sure what else Paddy Jackson needs to do. Any talk of his poor kicking is lazy as he has vastly improved this year.http://rugby.statbunker.com/competitions/KickingStrikeRate?comp_id=500

Play 12, 15, and 9 at a push?

ClanofLams

Were Madigan staying around it would be more understandable, albeit still frustrating. But with him going Jackson needs to get experience. For all the talk about Madigans versatility it's invariably Sexton he replaces.

rsh118

Scythica wrote: »

POM will never be first choice back row for Ireland again.

(In case we get through your points)

Ooooh, dealing in absolutes... Where have I seen that before?

Maybe Humphreys vs ROG? Humph was obviously better.

I don't think it should matter where a player plays his club rugby. We only have four professional teams.

awec

.ak wrote: »

Play 12, 15, and 9 at a push?

9 - Madigan can't play 9 either, so no issues here.

15 - Madigan can "play" 15. But he's probably the 4th best fullback in Ireland's 23. Wouldn't even consider him covering this position.


I reckon Jackson could play 12, in fact I think he has finished a few games for Ulster there in the past. The problem is that Ulster are never going to need Jackson to play at 12 (nor have we ever needed him to in the past) and will always need him at 10. We have more 12s than we know what to do with, whereas Leinster were only ever one injury away from needing Madigan to fill in there.

Jackson's lack of versatility is probably down to Ulster having a large amount of quality outside backs as much as anything. That and him being the best 10 at Ulster by a country mile.

rsh118

awec wrote: »

9 - Madigan can't play 9 either, so no issues here.

15 - Madigan can "play" 15. But he's probably the 4th best fullback in Ireland's 23. Wouldn't even consider him covering this position.


I reckon Jackson could play 12, in fact I think he has finished a few games for Ulster there in the past. The problem is that Ulster are never going to need Jackson to play at 12 and will always need him at 10. We have more 12s than we know what to do with, whereas Leinster were only ever one injury away from needing Madigan to fill in there.

Jackson's lack of versatility is probably down to Ulster having a large amount of quality outside backs as much as anything. That and him being the best 10 at Ulster by a country mile.

He has the tackling to be a 12. Sometimes he has too much tackling and I start to worry for him! He really makes som ferocious first up hits.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't think it should matter where a player plays his club rugby. We only have four professional teams.

I don't think it would matter if we were talking about a first choice very important player. Look at Sexton's time in France.

If you're talking about back up to a player who usually plays most of a match unless he gets injured or we're comfortably winning then it's not that big a deal really.

ClanofLams

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't think it should matter where a player plays his club rugby. We only have four professional teams.

Well it will matter when he's not being released for camps. Also from a provincial point of view if Madigan is being picked whilst in France you're effectively telling first choice players that they can head off and removing what might be the key factor in many of them sticking around.

ClanofLams

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't think it should matter where a player plays his club rugby. We only have four professional teams.

I don't think it would matter if we were talking about a first choice very important player. Look at Sexton's time in France.

If you're talking about back up to a player who usually plays most of a match unless he gets injured or we're comfortably winning then it's not that big a deal really.

Sexton had built in clauses that let him come back for all Irish camps though and I think that is unlikely to be offered again .

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

ClanofLams wrote: »

Sexton had built in clauses that let him come back for all Irish camps though and I think that is unlikely to be offered again .

True bit didn't he have to go back to France to play in the off weeks?

I don't think we'll see a situation like that anyway, with a key first choice player going abroad, the IRFU seem to have them all tied up with central contracts. Hopefully they'll have learned a little from this year's negotiations too. Get them done earlier, don't be afraid of a 3 year deal, etc.

irishbucsfan

Does anyone really expect Sexton to play 80 minutes against England? Or anyone?

There's only one selection for that 22 jersey I can get my head around. It's not even really close to me.

former total

mogwai81 wrote: »

Posted this in the Ulster thread, probably more relevant here.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/six-nations/gutted-jackson-reveals-his-frustration-at-joe-schmidt-selection-34467090.html

Not sure what else Paddy Jackson needs to do. Any talk of his poor kicking is lazy as he has vastly improved this year.http://rugby.statbunker.com/competitions/KickingStrikeRate?comp_id=500

See, the problem that fans like boards posters have is that we don't know what Joe's reasons are for picking Madigan. Is it Madigan's versatility as a bench option? His better goal-kicking? Does he just think Madigan is the better player? All of the above? If we don't know exactly why Madigan is preferred (and we don't), then we can't say "well, Jackson has answered that".

ClanofLams wrote: »

Well it will matter when he's not being released for camps. Also from a provincial point of view if Madigan is being picked whilst in France you're effectively telling first choice players that they can head off and removing what might be the key factor in many of them sticking around.

But then if you drop Madigan purely for going to France, then you're also punishing a guy for going in search of more game time at a higher level of rugby. One of the big criticisms of Madigan's selection is that he is only on the bench for Leinster, how can he be picked for Ireland etc etc - this move resolves that.

mogwai81

.ak wrote: »

Play 12, 15, and 9 at a push?

9 - we will have one sitting beside Jackson on the bench
12 - Ireland normally have any number of starters who can play 12
15 - I wouldn't be confident of Madigan at 15 against most teams at international level, plus most of are backs have experience
at 15.
I know Joe doesn't like moving any of the starting 15 out of position but most of the starting backline have a wealth of experience in other positions.

rsh118

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Does anyone really expect Sexton to play 80 minutes against England? Or anyone?

There's only one selection for that 22 jersey I can get my head around. It's not even really close to me.

I'm somewhere between the GHook Sexton should retire camp and the 80 minute crew. He'll give us an effective 60 and thereafter look frustrated if we are losing, or he'll look pure class for 80 as we cruise to an easy victory.

awec

former total wrote: »

See, the problem that fans like boards posters have is that we don't know what Joe's reasons are for picking Madigan. Is it Madigan's versatility as a bench option? His better goal-kicking? Does he just think Madigan is the better player? All of the above? If we don't know exactly why Madigan is preferred (and we don't), then we can't say "well, Jackson has answered that".



But then if Ydrop Madigan purely for going to France, then you're also punishing a guy for going in search of more game time at a higher level of rugby. One of the big criticisms of Madigan's selection is that he is only on the bench for Leinster, how can he be picked for Ireland etc etc - this move resolves that.

Yea we do. He told us all in his presser last week!

Versatility. He explicitly called that out. "Jackson is doing really well for us but it is Ian's ability to cover a few positions that is keeping him in the side right now."

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

former total wrote: »

See, the problem that fans like boards posters have is that we don't know what Joe's reasons are for picking Madigan. Is it Madigan's versatility as a bench option? His better goal-kicking? Does he just think Madigan is the better player? All of the above? If we don't know exactly why Madigan is preferred (and we don't), then we can't say "well, Jackson has answered that".

Didn't Schmidt specify last week that it was Madigan's "versatility" that was keeping him ahead of Jackson.

ClanofLams

former total wrote: »

But then if you drop Madigan purely for going to France, then you're also punishing a guy for going in search of more game time at a higher level of rugby. One of the big criticisms of Madigan's selection is that he is only on the bench for Leinster, how can he be picked for Ireland etc etc - this move resolves that.

Well if it's true that he was offered Munster he had the option of that gametime in Ireland.

I don't see how we can pick him when he's over there to be honest if we're hoping to keep players in Ireland. He's not that important a player and even if people think he's better than Jackson, the gap certainly isn't significant. He's going to be missing lots of camp time too.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

The squad are training in Mullingar today. Payne is there but I don't know if he's training or not. Would they drag him all the way down to Mullingar if he wasn't able to train at all?

rsh118

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Didn't Schmidt specify last week that it was Madigan's "versatility" that was keeping him ahead of Jackson.

He's like on of those vacuums off the infomercials. He's got lots of different attachments, but they don't all necessarily work that well.

Once PJ gets a run and Joe decides to teach him 12 as well, we won't see Madigan again.

When's Conan/Ruddock signing on the dotted line for Ulster?

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

ClanofLams wrote: »

Well if it's true that he was offered Munster he had the option of that gametime in Ireland.

I don't see how we can pick him when he's over there to be honest if we're hoping to keep players in Ireland. He's not that important a player and even if people think he's better than Jackson, the gap certainly isn't significant. He's going to be missing lots of camp time too.

If Madigan goes to France and is playing week in week out at 10 and suddenly looks like Dan Carter I doubt very much Schmidt will ignore him. Although in reality we're talking about him still being a sub. In 2 years time he could be back at Leinster with 2 years playing only 10 under his belt and we Sexton could be winding down his career. Where Madigan is playing while Sexton is first choice is kind of irrelevant, I think.

ClanofLams

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

If Madigan goes to France and is playing week in week out at 10 and suddenly looks like Dan Carter I doubt very much Schmidt will ignore him. Although in reality we're talking about him still being a sub. In 2 years time he could be back at Leinster with 2 years playing only 10 under his belt and we Sexton could be winding down his career. Where Madigan is playing while Sexton is first choice is kind of irrelevant, I think.

It might not necessarily be as backup. What if Sexton gets injured and is out for the next 6N? Are we gonna play Madigan even though he'll miss the first week of camp and then possibly have to go back for a game in the off week?

Madigan shouldn't be picked whilst in France. Most guys are signed up this year but how can we keep top players next year or the year after from the megabucks in England or France if we were willing to pick a squad player over there. Also not trying to be smart but I don't think we have to worry about him playing like Dan Carter.

former total

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Didn't Schmidt specify last week that it was Madigan's "versatility" that was keeping him ahead of Jackson.

awec wrote: »

Yea we do. He told us all in his presser last week!

Versatility. He explicitly called that out. "Jackson is doing really well for us but it is Ian's ability to cover a few positions that is keeping him in the side right now."

Yes, he did. I am positing the outrageous theory that a coach may not share all his innermost thoughts on players at a media briefing.

awec

former total wrote: »

Yes, he did. I am positing the outrageous theory that a coach may not share all his innermost thoughts on players at a media briefing.

That is truly outrageous. Are you telling me that Schmidt lied to me?

A gross breach of trust if true.

former total

awec wrote: »

That is truly outrageous. Are you telling me that Schmidt lied to me?

A gross breach of trust if true.

No more Mr Nice Guy

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

ClanofLams wrote: »

It might not necessarily be as backup. What if Sexton gets injured and is out for the next 6N? Are we gonna play Madigan even though he'll miss the first week of camp and then possibly have to go back for a game in the off week?

Madigan shouldn't be picked whilst in France. Most guys are signed up this year but how can we keep top players next year or the year after from the megabucks in England or France if we were willing to pick a squad player over there. Also not trying to be smart but I don't think we have to worry about him playing like Dan Carter.

If Sexton was injured and was going to miss a whole 6 Nations, or even one or two matches, AND Madigan was in France playing like Dan Carter AND Jackson was having a stinker of a season then yes, I think we should select Madigan. That's a lot of ifs though. Given our luck with injuries it's not impossible that that could happen, however I think it's unlikely we'll have to make that decision.

Realistically though if Sexton was injured and out for a few months you'd have to select Madigan for the bench, at least, because other than Jackson what viable option do we have?

b.gud

Robbie: "Is it safe for me to come out?"
Security: "Yeah"
Robbie: "You're sure there's no angry Connacht fans?"
Security: "Yeah"

CMOTDibbler

awec wrote: »

That is truly outrageous. Are you telling me that Schmidt lied to me?

A gross breach of trust if true.

Meh. If you're serious then the answer is that Joe never puts a player down in a press briefing. He won't let even the slightest negative comment be made Rory. :eek:

If not serious then as you were.

bilston

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Didn't Schmidt specify last week that it was Madigan's "versatility" that was keeping him ahead of Jackson.

Well that's not going to change between now and next Saturday.

We'll see how they both get on this weekend...assuming they start for their provinces...

rsh118

bilston wrote: »

Well that's not going to change between now and next Saturday.

We'll see how they both get on this weekend...assuming they start for their provinces...

Jackson is being kept on the bench by the storming performances of Windsor. Don't think that's Ireland material tbh.

bilston

rsh118 wrote: »

Jackson is being kept on the bench by the storming performances of Windsor. Don't think that's Ireland material tbh.

Please tell me you're sh*****g me

rsh118

bilston wrote: »

Please tell me you're sh*****g me

So hard. Sorry!

bilston

rsh118 wrote: »

So hard. Sorry!

Phew I see you were.

McCloskey not involved for Ulster at all...a few ways of looking at that...interesting...

CMOTDibbler

bilston wrote: »

Phew I see you were.

McCloskey not involved for Ulster at all...a few ways of looking at that...interesting...

Dillane not involved for Connacht either.

Scythica

I didn't think McC has been too great during these off weeks, doesn't help when your parachuted into a team without training with them I guess.

What would be interesting is if LM get released back instead.

Somewhere Cave is learning Voodoo if all the Ulster playes keep passing him by. I think McC is the only uncapped one?