Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread V

former total

calico77 wrote: »

Medard scored on about 68 minutes.

He scored at 69:32. Then a minute, maybe two for the conversion, everyone getting back to the halfway line, etc, etc, there was not "well over 10 minutes" left by the time Madigan restarted, there was about eight.

calico77 wrote: »

If France won the kick off on their own 10m line we would have been running it from our own 22 if they kicked long.

Yes, exactly. Nothing about the game tells me that we'd have had much success.

awec

former total wrote: »

No, there wasn't.

The option to go for the contestable re-start was exactly the right call. Kicking it long to the French, for them to kick long back to us, was not the right call since we had struggled so badly to make any sort of yardage, especially in the second half. The best option was to give the forwards something to compete for. The execution stank but the decision was the right one.

Oh come off it former total.

There was about 70ish mins on the clock and that ball had to go deep and make France either try and play out of their own 22 or hoof it back to us. There was no need at all to try the super duper restart.

If there was only 3 or 4 minutes left then yes, absolutely. But there was enough time for an attack to be built from regained possession.

jacothelad

Noopti wrote: »

If Madigan starts on the bench, I will be seriously disappointed. We need a "proper" dedicated 10 on the bench.
Not only that, but that kick out on the full last week was absolutely criminal by Madigan - there is no way anyone we expect to come and replace Sexton at 10 should be anywhere near doing that. All we needed was to keep the ball in play and then put pressure on France. An unforced error of huge magnitude.

All players do this. Sexton, Jackson, Carter all are guilty..

thomond2006 wrote: »

I was literally driven up the walls when I read this.


Edit: By the way, isn't it annoying that the conjugation for the present and past tense of the verb 'to read' is the same? Someone needs to make up a past participle for 'to read'. I rad the paper yesterday?

"I have read yesterday's paper." This of course then introduces the apostrophe into the equation.

awec

jacothelad wrote: »

All players do this. Sexton, Jackson, Carter all are guilty..




"I have read yesterday's paper." This of course then introduces the apostrophe into the equation.

I think all players are capable of putting it out on the full jaco.

The execution of that kick is only part of the problem though. The decision to go for it in the first place is representative of a bigger issue to me.

There's no way Sexton or Carter make that decision and I have my doubts that Jackson would as well.

calico77

former total wrote: »

He scored at 69:32. Then a minute, maybe two for the conversion, everyone getting back to the halfway line, etc, etc, there was not "well over 10 minutes" left by the time Madigan restarted, there was about eight.



Yes, exactly. Nothing about the game tells me that we'd have had much success.

2 minutes for a conversion under the sticks? There was plenty of time to win the game if we didnt just instantly cough up field position and possession. The restart should have been sent to the edge of the french 22 in the 5-15m channel. It was pissing rain, just put as much air on it and maybe even get a knock on from the french. Ireland needed territory first and foremost. That way the pressure is on the French to not give away a penalty.

So there wasnt well over 10 left, there was about 9 left. I was going from memory and the scrums under our posts were happening and the clock was in the late 60s.

former total

awec wrote: »

Oh come off it former total.

What would you like me to come off?

awec wrote: »

There was about 70ish mins on the clock and that ball had to go deep and make France either try and play out of their own 22 or hoof it back to us. There was no need at all to try the super duper restart.

If there was only 3 or 4 minutes left then yes, absolutely. But there was enough time for an attack to be built from regained possession.

There was enough time, but we had been unable to mount any sort of successful attacks all game. But we'd have done so in the closing minutes when everyone was knackered? I doubt it.

As I said, the decision (presumably taken by Heaslip) was the right one, it was the execution that was bad.

awec

former total wrote: »

What would you like me to come off?



There was enough time, but we had been unable to mount any sort of successful attacks all game. But we'd have done so in the closing minutes when everyone was knackered? I doubt it.

As I said, the decision (presumably taken by Heaslip) was the right one, it was the execution that was bad.

If we hadn't been able to make yards what use would gathering the ball on the French 10 metre line have been with 40 metres and 15 french blokes set in defensive positions sitting between us and a try?

former total

awec wrote: »

If we hadn't been able to make yards what use would gathering the ball on the French 10 metre line have been with 40 metres and 15 french blokes set in defensive positions sitting between us and a try?

We didn't need a try.

Pick and drive, pick and drive, don't even need to make a single metre, just hope for a penalty. It wouldn't be pretty but it would be more realistic than an 80-metre breakout try.

awec

former total wrote: »

We didn't need a try.

Pick and drive, pick and drive, don't even need to make a single metre, just hope for a penalty. It wouldn't be pretty but it would be more realistic than an 80-metre breakout try.

This is true regarding the try, though I would still argue that we need possession. Not immediately (i.e. France couldn't just instantly boot it out to end the game), but we needed it back there and then.

The best chance of that happening was to go long to force France to clear their lines and give the ball back to us.

THEN try to milk a penalty. We may have sacrificed 10 metres but we'd have had the ball.

OldRio

Just imagine if Jackson had made that mistake. Would we be having the same posters defending the decision?

shuffol

My issue with Madigan is that he's a very average flyhalf, I've no idea how Jackson has gone from backup 2 seasons ago to behind Madigan now, given their respective form for their provinces since. I think it's just a blind spot Schmidt has.

Can anyone tell me whether Madigan has featured off the bench for Ireland in a position other than 10.

Noopti

former total wrote: »

What would you like me to come off?



There was enough time, but we had been unable to mount any sort of successful attacks all game. But we'd have done so in the closing minutes when everyone was knackered? I doubt it.

As I said, the decision (presumably taken by Heaslip) was the right one, it was the execution that was bad.

I honestly can't understand how anyone would think that the decision was the right one. The players should not be thinking, "we have made no successful attacks in a while, therefore take a massive risk and go for broke". With the guts of 10 minutes left. They should have enough trust in their abilities to at least give themselves some chance in those 10 minutes. If the players were thinking that, then that is a bigger issue in my opinion.

But to each their own, we obviously aren't going to convince each other!

former total

awec wrote: »

This is true regarding the try, though I would still argue that we need possession. Not immediately (i.e. France couldn't just instantly boot it out to end the game), but we needed it back there and then.

The best chance of that happening was to go long to force France to clear their lines and give the ball back to us.

THEN try to milk a penalty. We may have sacrificed 10 metres but we'd have had the ball.

Yeah, well obviously when it goes tits up, then the other choice was the right one. TBH at that point I think we were a beaten team one way or the other.

I'm not actually defending Madigan here, even though you assume I am. It was a horrible kick. I'm defending the tactic which I presume was made by whichever of Best or Heaslip was captain at the time.

The Black Stags

Just pointing out that games never end at 80mins on the dot. What was the time on the clock when NZ scored agaisnt us in 2013? (that match never happened though)

Quibbling about 9-10mins is ridiculous.There was plenty of time to put pressure on the french and try to eke a mistake out of them.

But also arguing that Madigan shouldn't have; been selected was it? And using his kick out on the full against him is a bit silly given that Jackson also kicked out on the full from a kick off when he came on, that same weekend. Can't hold it agaisnt one person and not the other really.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Speaking of Dan Carter and decision making. ....kind of. Didn't he win Racing their match this weekend with a last minute decision? He looked like a genius when it came off. Maybe he wouldn't have made the decision if he wasn't 100% sure it would. Can't remember if they had advantage or not either....

Anyway.... back to..... whatever it was we were talking about. ..... Earls at centre!! I can't believe it.

Mahatma Geansai

Cronin is very unlucky to be ousted from the squad after 6 minutes of rugby in two games. Healy really lives a charmed existence. He's a great player when at his very best, but the Cian Healy of the last two seasons doesn't deserve to be an automatic pick.

Murphy is an odd choice considering how poor he has been for Leinster, but we know that Joe is a big fan. We would be much better served by picking someone like Conan/JOD who has a big future as an international player. Gilroy's form has finally been rewarded but I doubt that we'll see him involved. Dave Foley is fortunate, but we are down to bare bones and Mudowney is the wrong side of 30.

Noopti

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

Cronin is very unlucky to be ousted from the squad after 6 minutes of rugby in two games. Healy really lives a charmed existence. He's a great player when at his very best, but the Cian Healy of the last two seasons doesn't deserve to be an automatic pick.

Murphy is an odd choice considering how poor he has been for Leinster, but we know that Joe is a big fan. We would be much better served by picking someone like Conan/JOD who has a big future as an international player. Gilroy's form has finally been rewarded but I doubt that we'll see him involved. Dave Foley is fortunate, but we are down to bare bones and Mudowney is the wrong side of 30.

I understand your reasoning, but I dunno, I think I would still rather have Healy come on at 60 mins than Cronin against England at Twickenham.

I didn't get to see the game at the weekend, but reading some reports it seems that Healy was pretty good, in the scrum at least. Of course, Pro12 to 6N is a different beast, but it's not like Healy is a fresh faced rookie.

Tough on Cronin, but I think considering the opposition and the fact we need to salvage something for the rest of the tournament, it is a good idea to give Healy a run for 20-25 mins and see how he goes in my opinion.

Mahatma Geansai

What's the strongest side we can field at the weekend? I'd like to see something like the following:

1. McGrath
2. Best
3. Ross
4. Ryan
5. Toner
6. Stander
7. TOD
8. Heaslip
9. Murray
10. Sexton
11. Earls
12. McCloskey
13. Henshaw
14. Trimble
15. Zebo

Noopti

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

What's the strongest side we can field at the weekend? I'd like to see something like the following:

1. McGrath
2. Best
3. Ross
4. Ryan
5. Toner
6. Stander
7. TOD
8. Heaslip
9. Murray
10. Sexton
11. Earls
12. McCloskey
13. Henshaw
14. Trimble
15. Zebo

I'd be happy with that anyway!

calico77

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

What's the strongest side we can field at the weekend? I'd like to see something like the following:

1. McGrath
2. Best
3. Ross
4. Ryan
5. Toner
6. Stander
7. TOD
8. Heaslip
9. Murray
10. Sexton
11. Earls
12. McCloskey
13. Henshaw
14. Trimble
15. Zebo

If Payne is fit he will be at 13, Henshaw at 12 and barring injury Rob Kearney will be at 15. I think Payne wont make it and expect Earls to be shoved into 13 and Zebo in the left wing

stephen_n

There's no way on God's earth that Zebo deserves to be ahead of a fit RK, none, not a chance.

The fact Cronin only got 6 mins of rugby in two internationals, given the way the game is played now. Speaks volumes about how he is rated by the management.

wp_rathead

I don't think he is playing well but I'd feel much more assured with RK at fb over Zebo - particularly away in Twickenham..

I really hope we don't see Earl's 13
He is a smashing wing - let's play him there and get McCloskey or Marshall on the pitch to partner Henshaw

swiwi_

Out of interest, I checked to see what the heaviest loss Ireland has shipped at Twickenham and it was 34 points in 2002: 11-45. Don't think there's any chance of that this weekend, as England are not in the class of the 2002 team, and Ireland are a better rugby nation than back in '02. In fact, Ireland could even win this weekend, although a slim enough chance IMO, and there's a risk it could turn very ugly.

Suspect the English bench will make a big difference, that is where Ireland's injury toll really makes itself felt. Hopefully Schmidt shows some balls in selection: Cronin ahead of Strauss (even if his throwing is a genuine lottery), vdF ahead of TOD, Jackson ahead of Madigan (Italy are probably the only other team that would definitely find a space for him on the bench), Earls not in the centres (honestly he's already tried it once, twice and he might as well change his name to Declan), McFadden not within a bull's roar of the 23.

Teferi

I think the Zebo v Kearney at 15 argument was put to bed after the Welsh game. He's a fine player but if he wants to learn 15 Zebo can do that at Munster and not in Twickers against the English.

CatFromHue

I think Ireland are going to win anyway.

Mahatma Geansai

Teferi wrote: »

I think the Zebo v Kearney at 15 argument was put to bed after the Welsh game. He's a fine player but if he wants to learn 15 Zebo can do that at Munster and not in Twickers against the English.

Zebo was a lot better against Wales than Kearney was against France.

swiwi_

Teferi wrote: »

I think the Zebo v Kearney at 15 argument was put to bed after the Welsh game. He's a fine player but if he wants to learn 15 Zebo can do that at Munster and not in Twickers against the English.

I hope Zebo gets 14. He is a positional liability at 15. I'd like Payne at 15, but sounds like he's injured. Which means Rob by default.

bilston

Was Zebo that bad against Wales? I suppose it was mixed, but he did look dangerous.

Then again I thought Kearney played well against France, or at least no worse than anyone else. There was a bad offliad but he looked quite lively.

Maybe I'm being too kind to our FBs!

captbarnacles

former total wrote: »

We didn't need a try.

Pick and drive, pick and drive, don't even need to make a single metre, just hope for a penalty. It wouldn't be pretty but it would be more realistic than an 80-metre breakout try.

Refs are loathe to give teams the penalty they are looking for when they do this.

AbusesToilets

I thought Olding was excellent at 15 against the Scarlets. How much longer can RK maintain a stranglehold on the 15 jersey ahead of the talent coming through elsewhere?

Teferi

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

Zebo was a lot better against Wales than Kearney was against France.

Everything Zebo done well against Wales he can do as a winger. Kearney is the better fullback.

swiwi_ wrote: »

I hope Zebo gets 14. He is a positional liability at 15. I'd like Payne at 15, but sounds like he's injured. Which means Rob by default.

Yeah, when it comes to Kearney it's a bit of a safe option but when its a high level safe option I think its okay. I'd love to see Payne have a shot though.

The Rape of Lucretia

AbusesToilets wrote: »

I thought Olding was excellent at 15 against the Scarlets. How much longer can RK maintain a stranglehold on the 15 jersey ahead of the talent coming through elsewhere?

2-3 years. The jersey will safely remain his for any important games during that time.

wp_rathead

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

2-3 years. The jersey will safely remain his for any important games during that time.

If Olding gets an injury free run I can see him taking the 15 jersey

The Rape of Lucretia

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

Healy really lives a charmed existence. He's a great player when at his very best, but the Cian Healy of the last two seasons doesn't deserve to be an automatic pick.

We know he can do it. He did very well on Saturday. He is not an automatic pick. But correct to bring him in this case. There's no 'deserving' involved. You just pick your best players.

former total

wp_rathead wrote: »

If Olding gets an injury free run I can see him taking the 15 jersey

But he won't be playing 15 for Ulster.

The Rape of Lucretia

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

What's the strongest side we can field at the weekend? I'd like to see something like the following:

Which team do you think is the strongest we could field this weekend though ?

The Rape of Lucretia

jacothelad wrote: »

"I have read yesterday's paper." This of course then introduces the apostrophe into the equation.

Not to mention the philosophical debate on whether the inanimate object 'yesterday' can possess a physical object, a 'paper'.

AbusesToilets

Henshaw
Trimble
Payne
McClosky
Gilroy
Sexton
Murray
McGrath
Best
Ross
Toner
Dillane
Ruddock
Stander
Heaslip

Bench:
Healy
Cronin
White
Ryan
TOD
Reddan
Jackson
Zebo/Earls

wp_rathead

former total wrote: »

But he won't be playing 15 for Ulster.

Payne doesn't really play 13 for Ulster and Henshaw never plays 12 for Connacht but Joe likes him there

The Rape of Lucretia

wp_rathead wrote: »

If Olding gets an injury free run I can see him taking the 15 jersey

Agree, that's very possible. Autumn games 2018, then between the two of them for the 6N 2019.

Mahatma Geansai

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

Zebo was a lot better against Wales than Kearney was against France.

Zebo was more volatile

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

What exactly did Rob K do wrong against France? And I mean wrong, not what did he not do that you wanted him to be doing regardless of what the team plan was.

Against Wales Zebo was caught out of position a few times, which is understandable, but still an issue.

The Rape of Lucretia

Deleted User wrote: »

Zebo was more volatile

Agree with you. Its why he cannot play fullback, and is borderline international level wing, and only in the mix at the moment because of the injury spate.
Unstable, undisciplined, uncontrolled players who cannot fit into a team sport like rugby where the players around them must have confidence that they will play the prescribed role, are a liability at international level. The occasional radical or unpredicatable flash does not redeem a volatile general game.

former total

wp_rathead wrote: »

Payne doesn't really play 13 for Ulster and Henshaw never plays 12 for Connacht but Joe likes him there

Payne does play 13 for Ulster.

Henshaw fair enough. There were a few circumstances that led to that though.

I've no objection to Olding as a full back and we'll need someone to replace Kearney in the medium term, so hopefully it does pan out.

mfceiling

former total wrote: »

But he won't be playing 15 for Ulster.

The thing is he could end up here. Piutau may be on the wing as I think Bowe is on a serious wind down and Trimble hasn't much longer left either. Add in the rumour that Scholes is off to Edinburgh and Ulster aren't exactly teeming with wingers. I know Piutau is seen as a FB but he could be equally as good on the wing.

bilston

mfceiling wrote: »

The thing is he could end up here. Piutau may be on the wing as I think Bowe is on a serious wind down and Trimble hasn't much longer left either. Add in the rumour that Scholes is off to Edinburgh and Ulster aren't exactly teeming with wingers. I know Piutau is seen as a FB but he could be equally as good on the wing.

Olding is a great counter attacker from 15 but he wouldn't have Kearney's positional reading of the game at the minute. He may prove to be a very useful No.23 for Ireland in the short term.

LorMal

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

2-3 years. The jersey will safely remain his for any important games during that time.

Why? Certainly not on merit for at least the last 18 months.

captbarnacles

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

What exactly did Rob K do wrong against France? And I mean wrong, not what did he not do that you wanted him to be doing regardless of what the team plan was.

Against Wales Zebo was caught out of position a few times, which is understandable, but still an issue.

That offload :P who does he think he's playing for?

Billysays no

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

What exactly did Rob K do wrong against France? And I mean wrong, not what did he not do that you wanted him to be doing regardless of what the team plan was.

Against Wales Zebo was caught out of position a few times, which is understandable, but still an issue.

Why is that understandable. Zebo has been shocking defensively for munster and for ireland. But he can run through a gap MADE by his pack. Cian Healy could run through the gaps that have been opened for him. Maybe you don't see it this way.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Billysays no wrote: »

Why is that understandable. Zebo has been shocking defensively for munster and for ireland. But he can run through a gap MADE by his pack. Cian Healy could run through the gaps that have been opened for him. Maybe you don't see it this way.

Zebo was caught out of position a few times playing in a position he doesn't normally play in. That's why it's understandable.

Not sure what you're talking about with the rest of that.