Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread V

awec

.ak wrote: »

I don't think that's true, in either that we pick wings to nullify teams or that NMS is a pure attacking threat with noting else in his locker.

NMS is a brilliant breakdown back three player. He absolutely wins rucks in the wider channels.

Ireland look for bigger wingers because that's just the way the game is now a days. The opposition is bigger so we need guys that can assert themselves at the breakdown. When you have guys like Sarto who are good enough to clear Heaslip off their own ball you need guys in the wider channels that can protect that ball. Imhoff, DTH, Bowe, etc are all considered the worlds best wingers because they're big enough that whilst they're good attacking threats they also offer much more to the 15 man game because they can step in and clear a ruck or stop a centre just as well as a backrower can.

The best teams have 15 guys on the pitch that should be expected to do anything their teammates can. Front rowers need to catch and give a ball in one movement, and wingers need to be a force at the breakdown. The number on your back shouldn't matter.

Obviously there's still a place for the different sized guys in union because of the set pieces. But at international level you just have to bring the guys that have that all round game. If they possess an attacking threat (which most of our wingers do. To say they don't is a disservice, bowe, Trimble, earls, Fitzgerald especially) is of course also taken into consideration. This idea that we just pick bland lumps on the wing is completely unfounded and incorrect.

Gilroy is a brilliant winger at club level but would you see him effecting a ruck against a back three player like Imhoff?

I'm not talking about physically big wingers, I am talking about wingers that provide a real attacking threat. We don't have many of those.

Zebo is the closest we have and he got dropped, we picked Dave Kearney over him which is about as far away from flair and attacking threat as you can get.

Anyway, I don't know where the idea that Gilroy is physically weak is coming from.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

The thing about the NZ players is they're all capable of playing within a different structure at International level. They do play quite stylish rugby for NZ but they don't take anywhere near as many risks as they do when playing Super Rugby.

TJ Parenera (can never spell that) is a very different player when playing for the Hurricanes compared to when playing for NZ. He's much calmer, playes within whatever system they're using, takes far fewer risks himself.

I think that's the issue some of our more "skilled" players have when moving up to international level. Zebo is a perfect example of this. He's improved over the years but there's still always a worry that he's going to do his own thing. Sometimes that will work, sometimes it won't but can a coach take the risk?

I think that's the question to be asked of all these players we'd love to see in green. Can they do what they're asked and play whatever role they're given as part of the team effort? Obviously the only way to find out is to give them a shot.

Utah_Saint

bilston wrote: »

I think Jacob Stockdale would be one to keep an eye on over the next couple of years. I think Trimble has a few more years left anyway. Not so sure about Tommy though.

I could see Olding going to 15 when he returns which means we'd have himself, Trimble, Gilroy, Bowe and Piatau to choose from.

Forgot about Stockdale. Id prefer olding at centre but he has impressed at 15. Think he only played there a few times.

awec

Utah_Saint wrote: »

Forgot about Stockdale. Id prefer olding at centre but he has impressed at 15. Think he only played there a few times.

Olding might be forced to move out to full back if they feel his body isn't up to getting constantly battered in the centre.

bilston

awec wrote: »

I'm not talking about physically big wingers, I am talking about wingers that provide a real attacking threat. We don't have many of those.

Zebo is the closest we have and he got dropped, we picked Dave Kearney over him which is about as far away from flair and attacking threat as you can get.

Anyway, I don't know where the idea that Gilroy is physically weak is coming from.

Gilly has improved his breakdown work this season and I'm pretty sure that would have been a "work on" that Joe would have given him. If he adds that while maintaining his line breaking ability then he has a chance. On the downside he had a bad missed tackle last week which ultimately cost us the game against Edinburgh. With Tommy gone for the season he will get loads of chances now.

bilston

awec wrote: »

Olding might be forced to move out to full back if they feel his body isn't up to getting constantly battered in the centre.

This.

It may be a matter of necessity as much as anything. But he has looked very good there, he scored a brillant try from there last season that frankly was Cullenesque, albeit at Pro 12 level and against the Dragons, but still the boy knows how to pick a line. It's interesting that a lot of people and blogs over the last few days have had him down as the Irish 15 come 2019.

bilston

bilston wrote: »

Gilly has improved his breakdown work this season and I'm pretty sure that would have been a "work on" that Joe would have given him. If he adds that while maintaining his line breaking ability then he has a chance. On the downside he had a bad missed tackle last week which ultimately cost us the game against Edinburgh. With Tommy gone for the season he will get loads of chances now.

Didn't realise that was the case, that's a shame

CurryFlavoured

awec wrote: »

If NMS was Irish I don't think he'd play for Ireland because we seem to select our wingers based on qualities like how well they can clear out a ruck and how well they can catch a ball in the air. There is no place in the current Irish setup for a pure attacking threat like NMS / Gilroy because we focus a lot more on nullifying the opposition.

Yep, guys like Bowe and the Kearney's aren't built to do nimble sidesteps. They're built to run hard, tackle hard and compete in the air. We could do with a bit more pace out wide.

Tox56

awec wrote: »

I'm not talking about physically big wingers, I am talking about wingers that provide a real attacking threat. We don't have many of those.

Zebo is the closest we have and he got dropped, we picked Dave Kearney over him which is about as far away from flair and attacking threat as you can get.

Anyway, I don't know where the idea that Gilroy is physically weak is coming from.

What makes Zebo any more 'attacking' than Earls, Fitzgerald, Trimble? What does 'flair' mean? What makes him closer to NMS than those 3? He does some spectacular looking things on the pitch, but that doesn't make him any more effective as an attacker. Fitzgerald changed the game about as much as a back 3 sub could against Argentina, but he didn't do anything particularly flashy, no over the head offloads or flicks or tricks like you might get from Zebo that would be labelled as 'flair' or 'x factor', but I can't believe Zebo would have been any more effective in attack in that game. Is he as consistent in the attacking impact he can make on a game as the aforementioned wings? Maybe he can do some flick or offload no other wing in Ireland could do, but that doesn't mean he impacts the game as much as them overall in an attacking sense

I'll asking for trouble here, but for me Zebo is a great man for cutting up the lower quality teams, but when you put him in against top tier international sides he doesn't do it. He's a good player but I don't think his omission was too controversial.

Dave Kearney was really exposed against Argentina though and I'd hope Schmidt has taken note of that. I wouldn't have him in the Ireland team in the future anyway.

awec

Tox56 wrote: »

What makes Zebo any more 'attacking' than Earls, Fitzgerald, Trimble? What does 'flair' mean? What makes him closer to NMS than those 3? He does some spectacular looking things on the pitch, but that doesn't make him any more effective as an attacker. Fitzgerald changed the game about as much as a back 3 sub could against Argentina, but he didn't do anything particularly flashy, no over the head offloads or flicks or tricks like you might get from Zebo that would be labelled as 'flair' or 'x factor', but I can't believe Zebo would have been any more effective in attack in that game. Is he as consistent in the attacking impact he can make on a game as the aforementioned wings? Maybe he can do some flick or offload no other wing in Ireland could do, but that doesn't mean he impacts the game as much as them overall in an attacking sense

What is flair? Seriously? Flair is being unpredictable. That has positives and it has negatives but the positives outweight the negatives. Flair is a side argument, I just want more emphasis put on attack and less on how well they clear out a fecking ruck.

Nobody is saying Fitzgerald didn't have a good game but Dave Kearney was a complete waste of a shirt. He is a very limited player. I don't really think anyone can stand and argue that DK is a better winger than Zebo, or offers anything over Zebo (or Earls, or Trimble, or Gilroy).

Earls was unfortunate because we punted him off the wing (despite him being our best winger in the tournament) because the coaching team decided they didn't want to use the guy they brought to actually cover the centre. People argued when I said they didn't trust Cave, I think it's pretty obvious that he wasn't trusted in the end. Fair enough if the coaches don't rate him but don't bring him then.

Zzippy

Healy is a speed merchant, a la Denis Hickie. Has an excellent boot especially for grubber kicks and chases. Gilroy is not as fast but a better broken play runner in terms of his footwork. Neither will make the 6N squad based on the attributes JS looks for in his wingers. Both would make better attackers than e.g. Dave Kearney but don't hit rucks well enough... sad that these are a winger's requirements these days at test level, in Ireland anyway.

.ak

CurryFlavoured wrote: »

Yep, guys like Bowe and the Kearney's aren't built to do nimble sidesteps. They're built to run hard, tackle hard and compete in the air. We could do with a bit more pace out wide.

Why? Are wings have plenty of pace. Why do we need more pace, at the expense of size?

It doesn't make sense to me. It's just sounds like reactionary backlash from losing one game.

The pumas wingers weren't that small, nor would they be any faster than our guys. The reason they beat us on the wings was because of poor defence. Not speed.

I'd rather have a guy on the wing with a complete game rather than a specialist.

I also think we need to continue the shape and structure that has brought us success over the past two years. We can always get better at what we do, but to bring in guys just cuz they're faster won't suit out game plan. We ain't gonna beat teams on the outside just cause we bring in guys like gilroy or Zebo.

CurryFlavoured

I think we've put emphasis on big, solid tacklers out wide but we don't have much flair anywhere in the Country so I can see why we have what we have out wide. Bowe tbf is a very good player on form and will make clean breaks as well as high catches, generally solid in tackle etc. Dave is the epitomy of solid but nothing else and we can be do better. I'd like to see us try out more pace and 'flair' (if we have any) out wide going forward - Earls, Zebo, Fitz, Gilroy. What happened to Conway? Haven't followed him much but he seems to score lots of tries. Our options out wide are a bit grim if we're honest.

davegrohl48

Zebo would have ran down the second try scorer with ease. Doubt he would have been caught for the first try either.

awec

CurryFlavoured wrote: »

I think we've put emphasis on big, solid tacklers out wide but we don't have much flair anywhere in the Country so I can see why we have what we have out wide. Bowe tbf is a very good player on form and will make clean breaks as well as high catches, generally solid in tackle etc. Dave is the epitomy of solid but nothing else and we can be do better. I'd like to see us try out more pace and 'flair' (if we have any) out wide going forward - Earls, Zebo, Fitz, Gilroy. What happened to Conway? Haven't followed him much but he seems to score lots of tries. Our options out wide are a bit grim if we're honest.

Bowe's best days are behind him. I think he might be done for Ireland at this stage.

.ak

Zzippy wrote: »

Healy is a speed merchant, a la Denis Hickie. Has an excellent boot especially for grubber kicks and chases. Gilroy is not as fast but a better broken play runner in terms of his footwork. Neither will make the 6N squad based on the attributes JS looks for in his wingers. Both would make better attackers than e.g. Dave Kearney but don't hit rucks well enough... sad that these are a winger's requirements these days at test level, in Ireland anyway.

That's just the way the game is going though. There's no space for someone that can only offer something to his teammates by running with the ball. Every player needs to offer an all round game, but especially wingers these days as they're so involved with general play.

.ak

davegrohl48 wrote: »

Zebo would have ran down the second try scorer with ease. Doubt he would have been caught for the first try either.

You could be Bolt quick but if you get caught flat footed it doesn't matter a jot. You have to turn from a standing start where as the attacker has all the momentum. I very much doubt Zebo would've caught either of those.

davegrohl48

.ak wrote: »

You could be Bolt quick but if you get caught flat footed it doesn't matter a jot. You have to turn from a standing start where as the attacker has all the momentum. I very much doubt Zebo would've caught either of those.

Abslolutely not in any doubt about the second try. The sprint was 30 m or so, Kearney dives and makes contact just as the ball is touched down. Zebo is the fastest player in the squad. He is with certainty 1 metre quicker than Rob Kearney over 30m. Watch it back Kearneys shoulders are all over the shop, Zebo is a club level sprinter by comparison.

jacothelad

phog wrote: »

What exactly does this mean?

I think he misspelt Zebo.....:D. he'd be in the running for me, certainly over Daverage.

.ak wrote: »

For me Healy and Gilroy, whilst absolutely exciting, aren't big enough for top level rugby.

Although Healy looks like he has the scope to get a bit bigger.

Gilroy is bigger than Earls in height and weight , is not that much shorter than Zebo - about an inch - and round about the same weight. So it would seem that most of Ireland's wings are too small for 'top level rugby.'. So what you say is we really need Mick McGrath and Fanning on the wings....:D:D

Tox56

Nobody is saying Fitzgerald didn't have a good game but Dave Kearney was a complete waste of a shirt. He is a very limited player. I don't really think anyone can stand and argue that DK is a better winger than Zebo, or offers anything over Zebo (or Earls, or Trimble, or Gilroy).

DK I admit does have his limitations, but hes nowhere near as bad or incompetent in attack as people make out. Most people judge him on his performances in international games, and he hasnt even played that badly there. People are comparing Gilroy and Healy's performances against mediocre Pro12 teams to DK facing some of the best teams in the world in the most important competition in the world.

Heres a question, Zebo played 4 of the 5 Six Nations games in 2015. Did he really play any better than Dave Kearney did in 2014? Was this legendary "flair" seen much, if at all? I would tend to agree with the point made above, when he plays against the best teams, they have generally been able to shut down that "flair", and dont allow him to do what he does at a lower level. When he plays at that level, hes a good winger, but by no means the spectacular one we see against more average teams.

CurryFlavoured

.ak wrote: »

Why? Are wings have plenty of pace. Why do we need more pace, at the expense of size?

It doesn't make sense to me. It's just sounds like reactionary backlash from losing one game.

The pumas wingers weren't that small, nor would they be any faster than our guys. The reason they beat us on the wings was because of poor defence. Not speed.

I'd rather have a guy on the wing with a complete game rather than a specialist.

I also think we need to continue the shape and structure that has brought us success over the past two years. We can always get better at what we do, but to bring in guys just cuz they're faster won't suit out game plan. We ain't gonna beat teams on the outside just cause we bring in guys like gilroy or Zebo.

I'd consider Bowe and Dave below average in pace at this level for wingers, especially over the first 10-15 metres. Cordero for Arg has a brilliant sidestep and can offload, as can Imhoff.

Cordero is 5'9 78 kg according to the Internets - so considerably smaller than both our wings and yes, he's definitely quicker than them that's pretty clear. He's been one of the best wingers in the WC IMO, his tackling may not be outstanding but what he offers in possession more than makes up for it. I'd wager Imhoff is quicker too although not as quick as Cordero. Imhoff is 5kg lighter than Dave despite being 2 inches taller.

I'm not saying Bowe and Dave were bad calls out wide as they're solid and we don't have an NMS or Cordero hanging around. But going forward I'd like to see a bit more pace out wide or at least to try, now is the time with Bowe injured and Dave simply not all that.

Tox56

Zzippy wrote: »

Healy is a speed merchant, a la Denis Hickie. Has an excellent boot especially for grubber kicks and chases. Gilroy is not as fast but a better broken play runner in terms of his footwork. Neither will make the 6N squad based on the attributes JS looks for in his wingers. Both would make better attackers than e.g. Dave Kearney but don't hit rucks well enough... sad that these are a winger's requirements these days at test level, in Ireland anyway.

What is this based on? I have to say I have actually been impressed by Healy whenever Ive seen him, but hes playing almost exclusively at Pro12 level. Thats absolutely light years away from a Six Nations or World Cup game against an elite international team, and theres no way I would say with certainty that he would be any more effective in attack at that level than Kearney.

.ak

jacothelad wrote: »

I think he misspelt Zebo.....:D. he'd be in the running for me, certainly over Daverage.


Gilroy is bigger than Earls in height and weight , is not that much shorter than Zebo - about an inch - and round about the same weight. So it would seem that most of Ireland's wings are too small for 'top level rugby.'. So what you say is we really need Mick McGrath and Fanning on the wings....:D:D

Well I would think Zebo is too small personally. And Earls is just an exceptional player and very strong.

But yeah, hopefully magic mick and the fanj get their day in green .

Tox56

Tox56 wrote: »

What is this based on? I have to say I have actually been impressed by Healy whenever Ive seen him, but hes playing almost exclusively at Pro12 level. Thats absolutely light years away from a Six Nations or World Cup game against an elite international team, and theres no way I would say with certainty that he would be any more effective in attack at that level than Kearney.

I haven't seen a massive amount of Healy if I'm being honest but just on the bolded bit above, please tell me you aren't suggesting Kearney is as good in attack as Gilroy?

Zzippy

Tox56 wrote: »

What is this based on? I have to say I have actually been impressed by Healy whenever Ive seen him, but hes playing almost exclusively at Pro12 level. Thats absolutely light years away from a Six Nations or World Cup game against an elite international team, and theres no way I would say with certainty that he would be any more effective in attack at that level than Kearney.

Based on opinion. Obviously!

If you look at the top international teams, nearly all have a lot of speed in their back 3 - Savea, NMS, Habana, Tuculet, Cordero, Folau, etc - they're all fast players. You couldn't call any of our back 3 last week fast. Call me old-fashioned but I think we need some more pace in our backline. We're pedestrian by comparison to many countries.

Tox56

Harley Uptight Light wrote: »

I haven't seen a massive amount of Healy if I'm being honest but just on the bolded bit above, please tell me you aren't suggesting Kearney is as good in attack as Gilroy?

No I'm talking about Healy, Gilroy has played at higher levels more regularly

CurryFlavoured

I think our problem is probably more a lack of wingers than the game plan and selection. If we had an NMS I'm sure we'd adapt and play him but we don't have anything even near that level. That said, Earls is probably the best winger we have in terms of pace, breaks and try scoring so I'd like to see him stay out wide and not centre, tbf he may have played there had Payne not got injured. Fitz deserves some more time too.

AbusesToilets

I would like to see Gilroy get back into the team. When both he and Zebo came through into the team under Kidney, I thought he looked far more potent and effective with ball in hand. I hope he can push on and overtake either Bowe or Trimble this season.

AbusesToilets

AbusesToilets wrote: »

I would like to see Gilroy get back into the team. When both he and Zebo came through into the team under Kidney, I thought he looked far more potent and effective with ball in hand. I hope he can push on and overtake either Bowe or Trimble this season.

He had that incredible performance against Argentina and beyond that I think most of his caps came in 2013 which was a write off. Agree with you that I'd really like to see him come into the team.

stephen_n

Having pacey wingers is feck all use if you can't get the ball to them in space. Argentina beat us with quickness of hand as much as quickness of feet. Two passes each time behind the screen runners and it was out in the tramlines, Fitzgerald, Earls, Kearney all would have scored given that much space out there. Our line speed was off and Argentina analyzed our defense against France, then used it against us, we were rushing up and getting their screen runners, while the ball was moving faster behind them. We do not have that skill level in our passing, which is a far bigger issue than how effing fast our wingers can run.

jacothelad

Tox56 wrote: »

What makes Zebo any more 'attacking' than Earls, Fitzgerald, Trimble? What does 'flair' mean? What makes him closer to NMS than those 3? He does some spectacular looking things on the pitch, but that doesn't make him any more effective as an attacker. Fitzgerald changed the game about as much as a back 3 sub could against Argentina, but he didn't do anything particularly flashy, no over the head offloads or flicks or tricks like you might get from Zebo that would be labelled as 'flair' or 'x factor', but I can't believe Zebo would have been any more effective in attack in that game. Is he as consistent in the attacking impact he can make on a game as the aforementioned wings? Maybe he can do some flick or offload no other wing in Ireland could do, but that doesn't mean he impacts the game as much as them overall in an attacking sense

Their attacking end results would tend to disagree. I know many on here love Fitzgerald. He did have some really good bits against Argentina but I doubt if he is the only one of our possible wingers who would have scored the first try though he did well. That is one game out of 30+ for Ireland and in the majority he is completely anonymous. Not a popular thing to say here but sometimes the truth hurts.:D

Bowe. 85 tries in 135/67 games for Ulster/Ireland = 0.42 tries per game
Zebo. 45 tries in 86/21 games for Munster /I.....=0.42 tries per game
Gilroy. 40 tries in 118/5 appearances for Ulster/I = 0.34tries per game.
Earls. 53 tries in 112/ 46 games for Munster/I = 0.33 tries per game
Trimble. 71 tries in 192/58 appearances Ulster/I = 0.28 tries per game
Fitzgerald. 36 tries in 141/34 games for Leinster/I = 0.20 tries per game
Kearney.20 tries in 101 games for Leinster/I. = 0.19 tries per game

Cue the outrage and 'tries are not the main business of wingers' - unless you are not Fitzgerald or Dave, then it is very important. both are good rugby players just not the best available to Schmidt IMO only of course.

jacothelad

Harley Uptight Light wrote: »

I'll asking for trouble here, but for me Zebo is a great man for cutting up the lower quality teams, but when you put him in against top tier international sides he doesn't do it. He's a good player but I don't think his omission was too controversial.

Dave Kearney was really exposed against Argentina though and I'd hope Schmidt has taken note of that. I wouldn't have him in the Ireland team in the future anyway.

Well Zebo scored 11 league tries last season and 8 of those were against bottom 4 clubs. In the last 4 season he has scored 36 league and Euro Cup tries of which 18 have been against bottom 4 clubs.

On the other hand, Fitzgerald in the same time has scored 11 in 4 seasons 5 of which were against Zebre.

jacothelad

jacothelad wrote: »

Well Zebo scored 11 league tries last season and 8 of those were against bottom 4 clubs. In the last 4 season he has scored 36 league and Euro Cup tries of which 18 have been against bottom 4 clubs.

On the other hand, Fitzgerald in the same time has scored 11 in 4 seasons 5 of which were against Zebre.

Why are you comparing him to Fitzgerald? I said nothing about Fitz.

.ak

Harley Uptight Light wrote: »

Why are you comparing him to Fitzgerald? I said nothing about Fitz.

Luke stole jaco's soda farls a few years ago and he's never forgiven him.

Tox56

jacothelad wrote: »

He did have some really good bits against Argentina but I doubt if he is the only one of our possible wingers who would have scored the first try though he did well.

Fitzgerald is the most underrated overrated player I have ever seen. He is loved in Leinster but outside he is almost never given any credit at all, and that love is used as a stick to beat him for being overrated. People on here and particularly on sites like 42.ie were outraged just to see him get picked for the squad. I remember on that site people objected simply for him being singled out for a good performance in the Canada game. He is one of the players who could score a 30 metre solo try in one of the biggest games in Irish rugby history and he still wouldnt get any credit for it....

jacothelad

Tox56 wrote: »

What is this based on? I have to say I have actually been impressed by Healy whenever Ive seen him, but hes playing almost exclusively at Pro12 level. Thats absolutely light years away from a Six Nations or World Cup game against an elite international team, and theres no way I would say with certainty that he would be any more effective in attack at that level than Kearney.

If a winger was more effective at and playing in the same Pro12 against the same teams as Dave Kearney would that tell you anything. Considering D.K. plays in one of the top teams in Europe, gets the benefit of all those great players surrounding him and the others have to play with the mediocre 'muck' as I've seen some described on here. Shouldn't we expect a player for Leinster and the other teams seen as the 'Gold' standard to be more effective than those who are clearly viewed as inferior players. Logic would seen to dictate this. It seems sometimes those overlooked players are actually very good indeed. Maybe it's just their 'faces' really don't fit after all.....:D:D:D:D:D.

The end game of rugby is simple. To score more points than your opponent. Give me a player who scores over a player who doesn't any day. Give me a player who scores 14 tries in a season over one who scores 14 tries in 5 years. I still have to see the benefit of selecting those guys who couldn't score in a Womens' prison with a sackful of free pardons.

jacothelad

Harley Uptight Light wrote: »

Why are you comparing him to Fitzgerald? I said nothing about Fitz.

Well I was comparing one Zebo - who was the subject of your post - with Fitz, the guy who replaced Zebo in the Ireland team. If you want to say a player is only good against poor teams then it is fair to infer that you feel that others look good and are effective against better teams than Zebo. Frankly, there is no real comparison in the effectiveness of these two players. One looks good sometimes but rarely produces and one looks good sometimes and does produce the goods on a regular basis. If what you claim is true - and the stats back you up then it is also true of his replacement just that Fitz isn't even as good at that. Fitz is however a better player than Dave Kearney in most things on the rugby pitch - at least as a winger. He isn't as good as Earls on the wing.

AbusesToilets

Tox56 wrote: »

Fitzgerald is the most underrated overrated player I have ever seen. He is loved in Leinster but outside he is almost never given any credit at all, and that love is used as a stick to beat him for being overrated. People on here and particularly on sites like 42.ie were outraged just to see him get picked for the squad. I remember on that site people objected simply for him being singled out for a good performance in the Canada game. He is one of the players who could score a 30 metre solo try in one of the biggest games in Irish rugby history and he still wouldnt get any credit for it....

He's one of the most talented players we've ever produced, period. If not for his injuries, I think he would have overtaken D'Arcy years ago to partner BOD. Sadly, we never got to see that.

Pink Fairy

Tox56 wrote: »

Fitzgerald is the most underrated overrated player I have ever seen. He is loved in Leinster but outside he is almost never given any credit at all, and that love is used as a stick to beat him for being overrated. People on here and particularly on sites like 42.ie were outraged just to see him get picked for the squad. I remember on that site people objected simply for him being singled out for a good performance in the Canada game. He is one of the players who could score a 30 metre solo try in one of the biggest games in Irish rugby history and he still wouldnt get any credit for it....

I think you have a slight point, I believe everyone recognises his rugby ability and the fact he can tackle like a machine, but he is not an international class winger, swap positions internationally with Earls.... And I think we're all happy then

jacothelad

.ak wrote: »

Luke stole jaco's soda farls a few years ago and he's never forgiven him.

I remember the first time I saw Fitz in an Ireland shirt 9 years ago next month against the Pacific Islands and I remember thinking along the lines of ' Fecin' Wonderful. Another BOD tyoe player in the making.' He looked to be heading for a stellar career. Pace, stepping ability, tackling etc. Sadly, while he has oodles of skills he has flattered to deceive over the seasons. If he played every game as he did against Argentine he would be at last utilising his gifts. 23 starts for Ireland in 9 years isn't a true reward for his ability but it is maybe a true reflection of his performance, injuries notwithstanding.

bilston

Tox56 wrote: »

DK I admit does have his limitations, but hes nowhere near as bad or incompetent in attack as people make out. Most people judge him on his performances in international games, and he hasnt even played that badly there. People are comparing Gilroy and Healy's performances against mediocre Pro12 teams to DK facing some of the best teams in the world in the most important competition in the world.

Ah come on, that might be a fair comment regarding Healy but Gilroy has plenty of good performances at HEC and even test level in his portfolio.

bilston

Watching Australia's hard up defence here is making me quite angry when I think back to last weekend.

jacothelad

jacothelad wrote: »

Well I was comparing one Zebo - who was the subject of your post - with Fitz, the guy who replaced Zebo in the Ireland team. If you want to say a player is only good against poor teams then it is fair to infer that you feel that others look good and are effective against better teams than Zebo. Frankly, there is no real comparison in the effectiveness of these two players. One looks good sometimes but rarely produces and one looks good sometimes and does produce the goods on a regular basis. If what you claim is true - and the stats back you up then it is also true of his replacement just that Fitz isn't even as good at that. Fitz is however a better player than Dave Kearney in most things on the rugby pitch - at least as a winger. He isn't as good as Earls on the wing.

Again I never mentioned Fitz so I'm not going to address any of that.

On Zebo, I also wasn't really talking about try scoring. We saw him with some lovely play against the likes of Romania and a second string Wales but when he had to play against a full strength England or Italy even this was totally absent. To me this seems typical of him at international level, looks brilliant against lesser teams and regular enough against better ones.

Tox56

bilston wrote: »

Ah come on, that might be a fair comment regarding Healy but Gilroy has plenty of good performances at HEC and even test level in his portfolio.

I confused those two points about Healy/Gilroy. With regards to Gilroy I meant specifically in the last few months, with all the talk about how he's in much better form at the moment than DK. He is certainly playing well but he's hardly playing the same game at Pro12 level compared to the big WC matches

Pink Fairy

Harley Uptight Light wrote: »

Again I never mentioned Fitz so I'm not going to address any of that.

On Zebo, I also wasn't really talking about try scoring. We saw him with some lovely play against the likes of Romania and a second string Wales but when he had to play against a full strength England or Italy even this was totally absent. To me this seems typical of him at international level, looks brilliant against lesser teams and regular enough against better ones.

Go back to last years 6N against France he was imperious in the air, defended beautifully and supported the attack very well I thought

Pink Fairy

Pink Fairy wrote: »

Go back to last years 6N against France he was imperious in the air, defended beautifully and supported the attack very well I thought

Yeah that's all true enough, but the whole point if this conversation is people aren't happy with Ireland picking wingers who are imperious in the air and great defenders. He did not really create anything from nothing, we didn't see any moments of magic.

I think it might have been the England game rather than France by the way.

jacothelad

Tox56 wrote: »

DK I admit does have his limitations, but hes nowhere near as bad or incompetent in attack as people make out. Most people judge him on his performances in international games, and he hasnt even played that badly there. People are comparing Gilroy and Healy's performances against mediocre Pro12 teams to DK facing some of the best teams in the world in the most important competition in the world.
.

WE could just compare Gilroy and Healy's performances against mediocre Pro12 teams with Kearney's performances against mediocre Pro12 teams. I know who would look better and it wouldn't be Dave but he is a good player.

We could compare Gilroy's games in the Green shirt with Dave's but it would be odd. He played for Ireland against the Barbarians, scored 2 really great tries. He played against Fiji, scored a hat trick. He played against Argentina and scored a scorcher and also scored against Scotland in the 6 Nations. Dave has scored in those high level games against Canada and Samoa.

Pink Fairy

Harley Uptight Light wrote: »

Yeah that's all true enough, but the whole point if this conversation is people aren't happy with Ireland picking wingers who are imperious in the air and great defenders. He did not really create anything from nothing, we didn't see any moments of magic.

I think it might have been the England game rather than France by the way.

No, it was France, most definitely.
But we can't have it everyway. If you're defending well, and taking everything in the air, you can't be expected to be at the front of all the attacks, its not really possible under Joe's game plan

Pink Fairy

Pink Fairy wrote: »

No, it was France, most definitely.
But we can't have it everyway. If you're defending well, and taking everything in the air, you can't be expected to be at the front of all the attacks, its not really possible under Joe's game plan

Of course it's possible. You can't attack and defend at the same time.

I thought he'd a particularly good game against England in the air so maybe it was both, but I'm going from memory so could be wrong.