Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread V

awec

It would be good but would also lead to a lot of moaning.

Also rugby in Ireland is still very parochial IMO (because the provinces are still kind of representative teams). I think the majority of players really only want to consider moving when it becomes crystal clear they have no future at their home province. Some guys would rather play 5 games a season for Ulster rather than play for Munster every week (just two random teams picked).

Neil3030

I just want to call it now - when no province gets out of their group in the Amlin/RCC this year, and we all then switch our reactionary gears to how the national side should take a step back and stop interfering with provincial rugby. :pac:

In all seriousness, I don't think a draft would work in Ireland. Given relative populations, it would essentially just mean surplus Ulster, Leinster and occasionally Munster players going to Connacht. I would favour that we just see surplus Ulster, Leinster and occasionally Munster players going to Connacht. Madigan is the obvious one.

Redgirl82

Yeah_Right wrote: »

What would you all think about a draft system for the Irish provinces? I was talking about with some mates before the RWC and with the Super rugby squads being announced this week, I thought I'd ask you guys.

In NZ the franchises can name a squad of protected players from their region. I think it's 30. Any players not on that list can be picked up by other franchises. This has resulted in Dagg going to the Crusaders, Fekitoa and Naholo going to the Highlanders for example.

What if the provinces did something similar? Each province names a squad of say 40 players and other provinces can pick up any left overs. This means that Leinster's abundance of talent in the front row and loose forwards and Ulster's midfielders (for example) could be spread around and be getting regular game time. Surely that would be better for Ireland than having (potential) international players not even making the match day squad for Pro 12 and ERC matches.

Dont think this would work......40 players would mean the larger clubs would keep most of there players

Need something to allow players get really first team games. Why not set up feeder clubs in another country. Why not send a few players over to Italy for a season or 2? or even send to Australia/NZ/England/France?

At the moment there is a lot of players from Ireland going over to player in England and getting lost in there system. A few going to France with Grenoble

Example would be Marsh at Leinster. Has looked good in a few games with WC players away. Not he is behind Sexton/Madigan. So have the option to send him to another country for 2 seasons to grow as a player and then bring him back to Ireland.

That would be my preferred option.

The Lost Sheep

Redgirl82 wrote: »

Dont think this would work......40 players would mean the larger clubs would keep most of there players

Need something to allow players get really first team games. Why not set up feeder clubs in another country. Why not send a few players over to Italy for a season or 2? or even send to Australia/NZ/England/France?

At the moment there is a lot of players from Ireland going over to player in England and getting lost in there system. A few going to France with Grenoble

Example would be Marsh at Leinster. Has looked good in a few games with WC players away. Not he is behind Sexton/Madigan. So have the option to send him to another country for 2 seasons to grow as a player and then bring him back to Ireland.

That would be my preferred option.

IRFU wouldn't be allowed run these sides in other countries though. What level do you want these sides to be at in Italy etc? What players are lost in the English system. If IRFU want control they could look for more games for the provincial A teams against sides of a higher standard than they currently play
Where in Australia/France do you send these players? What level do they play while there?

molloyjh

Yeah_Right wrote: »

What would you all think about a draft system for the Irish provinces? I was talking about with some mates before the RWC and with the Super rugby squads being announced this week, I thought I'd ask you guys.

In NZ the franchises can name a squad of protected players from their region. I think it's 30. Any players not on that list can be picked up by other franchises. This has resulted in Dagg going to the Crusaders, Fekitoa and Naholo going to the Highlanders for example.

What if the provinces did something similar? Each province names a squad of say 40 players and other provinces can pick up any left overs. This means that Leinster's abundance of talent in the front row and loose forwards and Ulster's midfielders (for example) could be spread around and be getting regular game time. Surely that would be better for Ireland than having (potential) international players not even making the match day squad for Pro 12 and ERC matches.

It might be better theoretically, but you'd have to get the players buying into that. For example can you imagine telling Gary Ringrose that he has to go to Connacht? From his perspective he'll be away from family and friends in an inferior team and set-up with more chance of game time but against lesser opposition. All that meaning a lower opportunity to get into the national squad.

Nucifora is here, in part at least, to try and make sure we spread the talent around a little more/better. There might be a change in how things like that get viewed over time with him, but it's still down to the players. Part of what a lot of us enjoy about the way things are here now is that real sense of identity. The tribal thing that can get out of hand at times is also a great thing others. And having players buying into that along with the fans is important.

Zzippy

molloyjh wrote: »

It might be better theoretically, but you'd have to get the players buying into that. For example can you imagine telling Gary Ringrose that he has to go to Connacht? From his perspective he'll be away from family and friends in an inferior team and set-up with more chance of game time but against lesser opposition. All that meaning a lower opportunity to get into the national squad.

Nucifora is here, in part at least, to try and make sure we spread the talent around a little more/better. There might be a change in how things like that get viewed over time with him, but it's still down to the players. Part of what a lot of us enjoy about the way things are here now is that real sense of identity. The tribal thing that can get out of hand at times is also a great thing others. And having players buying into that along with the fans is important.

We play the same teams in the Pro12. Realistically, taking Ringrose as an example, he won't be playing ECC games this year, so it's irrelevant, he wouldn't be playing better opposition with Leinster either. If players are content to sit on their hole and play the odd game here and there for Leinster, fine. But IRFU should not be facilitating that kind of mediocrity. Players should be told to play for Ireland you need to be first choice for a province, and be playing x number of games a season. If they are ambitious enough they'll look for a move to get that. If they're not ambitious enough and content just to get paid and sit on the bench for Leinster, they're not the kind of players I'd want at Connacht anyway.

molloyjh

Zzippy wrote: »

We play the same teams in the Pro12. Realistically, taking Ringrose as an example, he won't be playing ECC games this year, so it's irrelevant, he wouldn't be playing better opposition with Leinster either. If players are content to sit on their hole and play the odd game here and there for Leinster, fine. But IRFU should not be facilitating that kind of mediocrity. Players should be told to play for Ireland you need to be first choice for a province, and be playing x number of games a season. If they are ambitious enough they'll look for a move to get that. If they're not ambitious enough and content just to get paid and sit on the bench for Leinster, they're not the kind of players I'd want at Connacht anyway.

Someone like Ringrose right now will be looking at making European games maybe next season. If he signs a 2 year deal with Connacht he simply won't be guaranteed the same opportunities as he is with Leinster. I'm not trying to be a dick about it, but it's just the reality. Te'o has a contract expiring at the end of this season and Leinster have no recognised 13 other than him. So if Ringrose is ambitious he'll probably want to stay where he is.

Now hopefully Connacht can make the Champions Cups next season and things may well change then. But as it stands a really ambitious player is going to back himself at Leinster rather than head off to Connacht. And that's purely down to the opportunities playing at Leinster can provide right now. Even if it does take another season for that to become a reality. The more Connacht develop the less that becomes true though.

Yeah_Right

40 was just a random number I came up with. Make it 25 or 31 or whatever.

I understand the tribalism would be an issue at first. It was in NZ when Super rugby started but the fans and players have bought into it now and it works. Yes Lienster would be the biggest provider much the same way the Blues are in NZ but it means talented players get the necessary exposure and experience. The Highlanders are the Connacht of NZ and it's helped them with players from other regions really buying into the culture and loving it there.

Yeah some players would have to move away from their family and friends but if they want a career as a professional rugby player then tough s**t. Ireland is a very small island and travelling between the major centres is quick and easy in case anyone got homesick. Compare Galway to Dublin with Dunedin to Auckland.

It's definitely worked in NZ as I think they have 14 of the 20 Super rugby titles spread amongst 4 of the 5 teams. I think it would help Ireland. After a few teething problems.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

I think Ian Madigan is the perfect example of why young players should be open to moves away from Leinster. (just to use Leinster as an example). It's not like they're packing their bags and moving a thousand miles away either. You could live in Athlone (just for example, although I wouldn't recommend it) and be within 90 minutes of Dublin, Galway and Limerick.
Logic suggests that sharing the talent a bit more evenly should result in Connacht (for example) being a regular fixture in the Champions Cup with the other provinces meaning there's the exact same opportunities available to players at all 4 Provinces.

Zzippy

molloyjh wrote: »

Someone like Ringrose right now will be looking at making European games maybe next season. If he signs a 2 year deal with Connacht he simply won't be guaranteed the same opportunities as he is with Leinster. I'm not trying to be a dick about it, but it's just the reality. Te'o has a contract expiring at the end of this season and Leinster have no recognised 13 other than him. So if Ringrose is ambitious he'll probably want to stay where he is.

Now hopefully Connacht can make the Champions Cups next season and things may well change then. But as it stands a really ambitious player is going to back himself at Leinster rather than head off to Connacht. And that's purely down to the opportunities playing at Leinster can provide right now. Even if it does take another season for that to become a reality. The more Connacht develop the less that becomes true though.

I was only using Connacht as that was in your example. Why should a player not move to Munster then, if European rugby is what he needs (speaking generally now, not about Ringrose)? Like I posted previously about coaches in NZ being brought in and told to share their methods, maybe coaches should be brought in at the end of the season and asked who they will be playing regularly the following season, who probably won't get much first team gametime, and other coaches asked who they would be able to offer gametime to.

I'd like to see Nucifora introduce a more focussed programme. Talent needs to be identified and nurtured, and if a talented player earmarked for international honours is stuck behind a couple of more experienced players at a province it shouldn't be so difficult to tell him he needs to move to develop and we have a spot for you here. If you want to play for Ireland take your chance. If they refuse the policy should be his province can't offer him a contract renewal when it comes up. The carrot is being progressed on a talent development track towards playing for Ireland. The stick is if you refuse to co-operate you don't get another contract. Lots of ordinary working people have to move to find work, or are transferred by their employer. Why should very well-paid rugby players be any different?

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Maybe a draft/quota system with players of a certain age would work, as opposed to applying it to the whole system.

Somebody assesses players in a certain age range, marks them as "development players" and ensures they're sent where they're most likely to get meaningful game time to help them develop. Henshaw, for example, has managed to come through to the national squad through playing for Connacht. Had he been at Leinster he probably wouldn't have been a starter for them until maybe a year ago. Obviously Henshaw is at the upper levels of the talent scale but he's managed to come on just fine playing for the weaker of the Provinces.

techdiver

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Maybe a draft/quota system with players of a certain age would work, as opposed to applying it to the whole system.

Somebody assesses players in a certain age range, marks them as "development players" and ensures they're sent where they're most likely to get meaningful game time to help them develop. Henshaw, for example, has managed to come through to the national squad through playing for Connacht. Had he been at Leinster he probably wouldn't have been a starter for them until maybe a year ago. Obviously Henshaw is at the upper levels of the talent scale but he's managed to come on just fine playing for the weaker of the Provinces.

This is a very important point.

I would bet anything that he wouldn't have progressed to where he is now if he was with Leinster. He wouldn't have been getting meaningful game time over the last number of seasons.

How many other players have been stunted as a result of not doing the same thing. We either waste a number of years of having the player at the top level, or in some cases they may faded away into the background.

awec

Yeah_Right wrote: »

40 was just a random number I came up with. Make it 25 or 31 or whatever.

I understand the tribalism would be an issue at first. It was in NZ when Super rugby started but the fans and players have bought into it now and it works. Yes Lienster would be the biggest provider much the same way the Blues are in NZ but it means talented players get the necessary exposure and experience. The Highlanders are the Connacht of NZ and it's helped them with players from other regions really buying into the culture and loving it there.

Yeah some players would have to move away from their family and friends but if they want a career as a professional rugby player then tough s**t. Ireland is a very small island and travelling between the major centres is quick and easy in case anyone got homesick. Compare Galway to Dublin with Dunedin to Auckland.

It's definitely worked in NZ as I think they have 14 of the 20 Super rugby titles spread amongst 4 of the 5 teams. I think it would help Ireland. After a few teething problems.

Moving away from friends and family hardly applies when staying on this island anyway.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

techdiver wrote: »

This is a very important point.

I would bet anything that he wouldn't have progressed to where he is now if he was with Leinster. He wouldn't have been getting meaningful game time over the last number of seasons.

How many other players have been stunted as a result of not doing the same thing. We either waste a number of years of having the player at the top level, or in some cases they may faded away into the background.

Exactly, you can argue he's a very talented player and would have made it at any of the provinces, and he probably would have eventually, but there's no way he'd have 64 caps at the age of 22 or have been starting all the Heineken Cup matches at 19 if he was playing at Leinster. (Just to use them as an example, particularly when it comes to Henshaw and the position he plays)

techdiver

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Exactly, you can argue he's a very talented player and would have made it at any of the provinces, and he probably would have eventually, but there's no way he'd have 64 caps at the age of 22 or have been starting all the Heineken Cup matches at 19 if he was playing at Leinster. (Just to use them as an example, particularly when it comes to Henshaw and the position he plays)

Yeah.

I just don't understand the point of having young talent warming the bench (in fact warming the Anglesea Stand in most instances) when they would get game time elsewhere and build experience.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

techdiver wrote: »

Yeah.

I just don't understand the point of having young talent warming the bench (in fact warming the Anglesea Stand in most instances) when they would get game time elsewhere and build experience.

To stick with the Henshaw point, if you look at Noel Reid for comparison, he's 25 now and looks to be a decent player but is not really someone you'd put on your list of potential starters for the next 6 Nations. This, I think, is the first season where's he's been a regular 1st team player and that could well change once all the WC players are back in contention.

jacothelad

Awesomeness wrote: »

Felix Jones forced to retire. Real shame he might not have been everyones favourite but sad to see him go out like that

http://www.irishrugby.ie/news/36045.php#.VjD5prfhCM8

Holy feck. No.That's a real, real shock. What on earth happened to his neck that caused this.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Just looking at the Connacht squad there and there's actually a huge amount of non Connacht born players playing for them already. You'd wonder how many of them are guys who thought they'd have better opportunities at Connacht and how many of them are players who weren't considered good enough for the other Provinces?

Zzippy

Zzippy wrote: »

I was only using Connacht as that was in your example. Why should a player not move to Munster then, if European rugby is what he needs (speaking generally now, not about Ringrose)? Like I posted previously about coaches in NZ being brought in and told to share their methods, maybe coaches should be brought in at the end of the season and asked who they will be playing regularly the following season, who probably won't get much first team gametime, and other coaches asked who they would be able to offer gametime to.

I'd like to see Nucifora introduce a more focussed programme. Talent needs to be identified and nurtured, and if a talented player earmarked for international honours is stuck behind a couple of more experienced players at a province it shouldn't be so difficult to tell him he needs to move to develop and we have a spot for you here. If you want to play for Ireland take your chance. If they refuse the policy should be his province can't offer him a contract renewal when it comes up. The carrot is being progressed on a talent development track towards playing for Ireland. The stick is if you refuse to co-operate you don't get another contract. Lots of ordinary working people have to move to find work, or are transferred by their employer. Why should very well-paid rugby players be any different?

Because they aren't different? Loads of players move about the provinces. Munster have three Leinster players in the squad for tomorrow and it would be four if not for poor old Felix Jones. I'm really not sure where this is coming from, is there a player in particular you think should have moved?

I'll just add putting a gun to someone's head and saying move or give up your contract is an utterly daft idea and I hope something like that is never implemented.

jacothelad

Pink Fairy wrote: »

He's heading over to a.k.'s gaff......he'll get dinner and a shag

I'm told he'd rather have a Cormorant. Bit more class about them though some people can't tell the difference.:D

jacothelad

Redgirl82 wrote: »

Dont think this would work......40 players would mean the larger clubs would keep most of there players

Need something to allow players get really first team games. Why not set up feeder clubs in another country. Why not send a few players over to Italy for a season or 2? or even send to Australia/NZ/England/France?

At the moment there is a lot of players from Ireland going over to player in England and getting lost in there system. A few going to France with Grenoble

Example would be Marsh at Leinster. Has looked good in a few games with WC players away. Not he is behind Sexton/Madigan. So have the option to send him to another country for 2 seasons to grow as a player and then bring him back to Ireland.

That would be my preferred option.

Marsh should definitely be sent to another country where he would get lots of opportunities at 10........ Northern Ireland.:D

molloyjh

Zzippy wrote: »

I was only using Connacht as that was in your example. Why should a player not move to Munster then, if European rugby is what he needs (speaking generally now, not about Ringrose)? Like I posted previously about coaches in NZ being brought in and told to share their methods, maybe coaches should be brought in at the end of the season and asked who they will be playing regularly the following season, who probably won't get much first team gametime, and other coaches asked who they would be able to offer gametime to.

I'd like to see Nucifora introduce a more focussed programme. Talent needs to be identified and nurtured, and if a talented player earmarked for international honours is stuck behind a couple of more experienced players at a province it shouldn't be so difficult to tell him he needs to move to develop and we have a spot for you here. If you want to play for Ireland take your chance. If they refuse the policy should be his province can't offer him a contract renewal when it comes up. The carrot is being progressed on a talent development track towards playing for Ireland. The stick is if you refuse to co-operate you don't get another contract. Lots of ordinary working people have to move to find work, or are transferred by their employer. Why should very well-paid rugby players be any different?

They shouldn't. But while it is possible to get non-voluntary transfers in work things like that can cause people to leave if they feel they've been hard done by etc.

EDIT: And also, it is rare that those kinds of transfers involve moves to the other side of the country. The majority of people wouldn't make a move like that in any industry.

In fairness I'd be very much in favour of what you're describing above in many ways. I was just pointing out some of the elements that need to be factored in when looking at it. Players shouldn't be forced, or pushed, into a decision they aren't comfortable with. As long as they are comfortable with the idea though (and part of Nuciforas role is in selling moves like that to players) then great.

jacothelad

Zzippy wrote: »

We play the same teams in the Pro12. Realistically, taking Ringrose as an example, he won't be playing ECC games this year, so it's irrelevant, he wouldn't be playing better opposition with Leinster either. If players are content to sit on their hole and play the odd game here and there for Leinster, fine. But IRFU should not be facilitating that kind of mediocrity. Players should be told to play for Ireland you need to be first choice for a province, and be playing x number of games a season. If they are ambitious enough they'll look for a move to get that. If they're not ambitious enough and content just to get paid and sit on the bench for Leinster, they're not the kind of players I'd want at Connacht anyway.

If I may be a bit mischievous here, you don't need to be first choice at a province to play for Ireland.

molloyjh

techdiver wrote: »

Yeah.

I just don't understand the point of having young talent warming the bench (in fact warming the Anglesea Stand in most instances) when they would get game time elsewhere and build experience.

Because the potential of playing in the Champions Cup next year beats the potential of playing in the Challenge Cup this year and next year? Because being surrounded by and learning from top class internationals beats playing with a team with very few internationals in their line-up? The very real opportunity to get a medal or two? Tribalism?

There's a whole bunch of reasons why you'd sacrifice game time in the short term for what you deem to be better prospects in the medium to long term. Some of the above apply across the board, some only to certain provinces, but either way if a player feels his career as a whole is better served by staying where he is then that is his call. It'll be up to Nucifora and the relevant coaches to sell the idea of a move, but the player himself has to make the decision.

Zzippy

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Just looking at the Connacht squad there and there's actually a huge amount of non Connacht born players playing for them already. You'd wonder how many of them are guys who thought they'd have better opportunities at Connacht and how many of them are players who weren't considered good enough for the other Provinces?

A bit of both. Quite a few were picked up from AIL clubs, so they were either not considered good enough or released from academies e.g. JP Cooney, McSharry, Niyi, Masterson, Dillane, Ronaldson, Healy. Some of those I'd expect to excel over the next few years, especially Masterson.

Others were signed directly from other provinces, sugegsting they had ambition to get gametime and were prepared to move - Carr, Cooney, Marshall, Roux, Porter, JHW. It hasn't really worked out for Carr, the rest remain to be seen. JHW when injury free has been excellent.

jm08

Time will tell whether it really works in New Zealand. Quite a lot of young kiwis (Saili for example) are just leaving NZ to come to Europe. Bleyendaal is another example. Perhaps if it wasn't so easy to move around in NZ, they might still be playing there.

There are other reasons why young players might want to stay in a Province such as coaching and who are there. Could you blame any young lock wanting to stay in Munster and learn from Paul O'Connell. From what I've heard said about the forwards coaching in Ulster, its hardly surprising that they are having difficulty holding onto young forwards. If I was Jack O'Donoghue, I'd want to stay and learn my trade from a coach who was a top class no 8 himself as well.

Zzippy

jacothelad wrote: »

If I may be a bit mischievous here, you don't need to be first choice at a province to play for Ireland.

Yes, but you should be. All this guff about players having to be playing top class European rugby to be ready for test level is nonsense if you have reserves who don't get that exposure making Ireland squads. It's one or the other, you can't have guys like Tadhg Furlong making squads on the back of zero European starts and then call for Henshaw to move cos he needs top European rugby. Players need gametime, end of.

awec

jm08 wrote: »

Time will tell whether it really works in New Zealand. Quite a lot of young kiwis (Saili for example) are just leaving NZ to come to Europe. Bleyendaal is another example. Perhaps if it wasn't so easy to move around in NZ, they might still be playing there.

There are other reasons why young players might want to stay in a Province such as coaching and who are there. Could you blame any young lock wanting to stay in Munster and learn from Paul O'Connell. From what I've heard said about the forwards coaching in Ulster, its hardly surprising that they are having difficulty holding onto young forwards. If I was Jack O'Donoghue, I'd want to stay and learn my trade from a coach who was a top class no 8 himself as well.

It's very rare that any young NZ player who is good enough for the All Blacks leaves though.

Yeah_Right

jm08 wrote: »

Time will tell whether it really works in New Zealand. Quite a lot of young kiwis (Saili for example) are just leaving NZ to come to Europe. Bleyendaal is another example. Perhaps if it wasn't so easy to move around in NZ, they might still be playing there.

Not sure what you're trying to say here. They both played for the franchises where they grew up. And time will tell? Really? It's been going on for 20 years. Seems to be working ok so far.

Zzippy

molloyjh wrote: »

They shouldn't. But while it is possible to get non-voluntary transfers in work things like that can cause people to leave if they feel they've been hard done by etc.

EDIT: And also, it is rare that those kinds of transfers involve moves to the other side of the country. The majority of people wouldn't make a move like that in any industry.

In fairness I'd be very much in favour of what you're describing above in many ways. I was just pointing out some of the elements that need to be factored in when looking at it. Players shouldn't be forced, or pushed, into a decision they aren't comfortable with. As long as they are comfortable with the idea though (and part of Nuciforas role is in selling moves like that to players) then great.

In fairness, Limerick, Belfast and Galway are all 2 hours or less from Dublin by car. It's not like being forced to move to Australia, which many thousands have had to do to find work. I have friends who have been told that to progress in their career they will need to move to head office in California for the next 5 years, then they can bring that expertise back to the Irish operation. Gardai are routinely transferred to other areas. Soldiers have to serve abroad. Diplomats get no say in their postings. Hell, I've lived in all 4 provinces myself because of work.

It's not about forcing someone. It's about doing what's best for Irish rugby - which is 4 strong provinces all working together for the national team - and giving players options that feed into that. "Look, we need you to play in Ulster to get gametime and progress. Fine if you don't want to, but we won't be renewing your contract here in Dublin when it's up if you're still a bench player. If you want to be an employee of IRFU long-term it will be in the Belfast office".

awec wrote: »

It's very rare that any young NZ player who is good enough for the All Blacks leaves though.

Piutau?

awec

Piutau maybe but I said rare, not never. How many NIQ players have come here who realistically would be playing test rugby at home?

Zzippy

awec wrote: »

Piutau maybe but I said rare, not never. How many NIQ players have come here who realistically would be playing test rugby at home?

Pienaar, Botha, Douglas, Elsom, possibly Afoa, but their numbers here are limited by the emphasis on Irish players and NIQ rules. Giteau and Mitchell two obvious examples in France too. All of those players thought they were giving up on test rugby to play here AFAIK, I don't think Pienaar expected to be brought back in to the SA squad, nor did Giteau and Mitchell to Aus.

jm08

awec wrote: »

It's very rare that any young NZ player who is good enough for the All Blacks leaves though.

Playing for the All Blacks might be the only reason for them to stay in NZ. In Ireland, playing for your provincial team is also a major draw.

Take John Muldoon for example - if he wasn't so attached to his home province, he probably would not have stayed there.

jm08

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Not sure what you're trying to say here. They both played for the franchises where they grew up. And time will tell? Really? It's been going on for 20 years. Seems to be working ok so far.

Its changing though - players (particularly those who might not be first choice ABs) are leaving NZ at a much younger age now perhaps because they don't have any real tie with their Super Rugby side.

molloyjh

Zzippy wrote: »

Yes, but you should be. All this guff about players having to be playing top class European rugby to be ready for test level is nonsense if you have reserves who don't get that exposure making Ireland squads. It's one or the other, you can't have guys like Tadhg Furlong making squads on the back of zero European starts and then call for Henshaw to move cos he needs top European rugby. Players need gametime, end of.

Furlong is at best the 4th choice TH behind Ross, Moore and White though. And this in a problem position for Ireland. You're hardly comparing like with like there.

And I'm not sure exactly who is calling for Henshaw to move. There's speculation that he will (and that he wants to) but is anyone really calling for it to happen? And what exactly do they think will happen if he stays put? Obviously a player doesn't have to play Champions Cup rugby to make it at international level. But in fairness showcasing yourself there certainly helps.

Zzippy wrote: »

In fairness, Limerick, Belfast and Galway are all 2 hours or less from Dublin by car. It's not like being forced to move to Australia, which many thousands have had to do to find work. I have friends who have been told that to progress in their career they will need to move to head office in California for the next 5 years, then they can bring that expertise back to the Irish operation. Gardai are routinely transferred to other areas. Soldiers have to serve abroad. Diplomats get no say in their postings. Hell, I've lived in all 4 provinces myself because of work.

It's not about forcing someone. It's about doing what's best for Irish rugby - which is 4 strong provinces all working together for the national team - and giving players options that feed into that. "Look, we need you to play in Ulster to get gametime and progress. Fine if you don't want to, but we won't be renewing your contract here in Dublin when it's up if you're still a bench player. If you want to be an employee of IRFU long-term it will be in the Belfast office".

If my company decided I needed to move to an office in Limerick or Galway I'd leave my company because I don't want to make that move. Maybe others in my office would be ok with it but I wouldn't. But then I have options in that regard. I work in an industry where I can change jobs within the same part of the country. The IRFU have a closed shop on rugby here. So again it's apples and oranges.

You say it's not about forcing someone to move, then go on to say that they should be told they either move or don't play rugby in this country again!? How is that not forcing someone? And how does that not create anything but issues? It is in no way a constructive way to manage people. And ultimately it would drive players abroad. Why would you stay here where suits can tell you where you can and can't play for less money when you can pick and choose yourself (to a degree) abroad for a lot more money?

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

molloyjh wrote: »

Furlong is at best the 4th choice TH behind Ross, Moore and White though. And this in a problem position for Ireland. You're hardly comparing like with like there.

And I'm not sure exactly who is calling for Henshaw to move. There's speculation that he will (and that he wants to) but is anyone really calling for it to happen? And what exactly do they think will happen if he stays put? Obviously a player doesn't have to play Champions Cup rugby to make it at international level. But in fairness showcasing yourself there certainly helps.

The only mention of Henshaw, in today's conversation, was as an example of a young player who managed to get considerable game time at various levels of competition and break into the Ireland squad all while playing for Connacht. It's highly unlikely any of that would have happened had he been at Leinster.

Whether or not he needs to move now he's already established himself is another matter. I'm not sure why he'd need to showcase himself though, unless he was looking to get a move to an English or French club. He's already showcased himself to the Irish selectors.

aimee1

Zzippy wrote: »

Fine if you don't want to, but we won't be renewing your contract here in Dublin when it's up if you're still a bench player. If you want to be an employee of IRFU long-term it will be in the Belfast office".

If a player does leave one province for another on say a 2 yr gametime/development scenario should his home province (the one he leaves) get a first option after year 1 and 2? Maybe then it might become a more appealing option for the provinces to follow

jm08

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

The only mention of Henshaw, in today's conversation, was as an example of a young player who managed to get considerable game time at various levels of competition and break into the Ireland squad all while playing for Connacht. It's highly unlikely any of that would have happened had he been at Leinster.

Whether or not he needs to move now he's already established himself is another matter. I'm not sure why he'd need to showcase himself though, unless he was looking to get a move to an English or French club. He's already showcased himself to the Irish selectors.

It probably would have happened in Leinster - a major reason why Henshaw has succeeded at provincial & international level is that he has the physical conditioning to be able to do so, unlike most of his contemporaries.

molloyjh

jm08 wrote: »

It probably would have happened in Leinster - a major reason why Henshaw has succeeded at provincial & international level is that he has the physical conditioning to be able to do so, unlike most of his contemporaries.

This. Henshaw is a bit of a freak in fairness. I'm not sure he should be used as a barometer to gauge anything.

awec

aimee1 wrote: »

If a player does leave one province for another on say a 2 yr gametime/development scenario should his home province (the one he leaves) get a first option after year 1 and 2? Maybe then it might become a more appealing option for the provinces to follow

It should be the same as any other transfer.

The system won't work if teams are putting effort in to improving guys only for some other team to reap the rewards. Why example should Munster put two years of effort into some lad from Belfast if he is just going to head back to Ulster after two seasons. Munster get no long term gain out of that, the winners are Ulster and the player in question.

connemara man

jm08 wrote: »

It probably would have happened in Leinster - a major reason why Henshaw has succeeded at provincial & international level is that he has the physical conditioning to be able to do so, unlike most of his contemporaries.

When Henshaw first made the first team for Connacht he was tiny compared to where he is now. It was only by playing and being spotted by Ireland and being in the environment that the targeted weight and muscle goals were introduced.

I think if you look at the limes if McCarthy and White who broke into the Ireland team by getting game time in Connacht it shows more of how it can work. Like even Quinn Roux has had a resurgence since transferring over and I'm sure Marshall will do the same.

But its not all about players to Connacht. Currently Ulster could do with a few backrows Munster and Leinster another centre option. Matches improve players over training and anything that can get the best players that are stuck behind an international or a leader playing regularly should be encouraged

jm08

awec wrote: »

It should be the same as any other transfer.

The system won't work if teams are putting effort in to improving guys only for some other team to reap the rewards. Why example should Munster put two years of effort into some lad from Belfast if he is just going to head back to Ulster after two seasons. Munster get no long term gain out of that, the winners are Ulster and the player in question.

I agree with that. Unlike most other people, I don't have a problem with JJ leaving Munster - let Northampton put the effort into developing him and from reports, Alex King is a very good coach.

JJ has to come back to Ireland if he wants an international career (I can't see him declaring for England somehow!)

Zzippy

molloyjh wrote: »

Furlong is at best the 4th choice TH behind Ross, Moore and White though. And this in a problem position for Ireland. You're hardly comparing like with like there.

And I'm not sure exactly who is calling for Henshaw to move. There's speculation that he will (and that he wants to) but is anyone really calling for it to happen? And what exactly do they think will happen if he stays put? Obviously a player doesn't have to play Champions Cup rugby to make it at international level. But in fairness showcasing yourself there certainly helps.

Ah come on, I'm not going to do a search of posts but there were loads of posts on here and elsewhere in the media saying he needs to move to get ERC rugby, there was even speculation last season that he would move despite being under contract. And he's already an established international, he hardly needs to showcase himself.

molloyjh wrote: »

If my company decided I needed to move to an office in Limerick or Galway I'd leave my company because I don't want to make that move. Maybe others in my office would be ok with it but I wouldn't. But then I have options in that regard. I work in an industry where I can change jobs within the same part of the country. The IRFU have a closed shop on rugby here. So again it's apples and oranges.

You say it's not about forcing someone to move, then go on to say that they should be told they either move or don't play rugby in this country again!? How is that not forcing someone? And how does that not create anything but issues? It is in no way a constructive way to manage people. And ultimately it would drive players abroad. Why would you stay here where suits can tell you where you can and can't play for less money when you can pick and choose yourself (to a degree) abroad for a lot more money?

A. you're in an industry where you have options. I pointed out many jobs where people don't have that option, so they are required to move occasionally. If the system was introduced, players would know what they are getting into, and that they may have to move to progress in their career.

B. Call it forcing all you want. I call it giving the player options. You have 2 years left on your contract here. We'll give you a longer one elsewhere, or you can see out your contract here. In most cases, if they're good enough they will be wanted back when they have developed further. If they're not good enough, well they certainly wouldn't have developed enough on the bench at home to justify another contract. Call it a loan move, home province gets first refusal on the player after 1 or 2 years. Players are loaned out all the time in soccer and it doesn't cause huge issues.

C. If they choose to go abroad, so be it. Players always have that option anyway. The reason they would stay here is the chance of playing for their country.

aimee1 wrote: »

If a player does leave one province for another on say a 2 yr gametime/development scenario should his home province (the one he leaves) get a first option after year 1 and 2? Maybe then it might become a more appealing option for the provinces to follow

This could work too, call it a loan system for minimum 1 full season, preferably 2, then original club has the option to call the player back if he's still under contract.

ec18

jm08 wrote: »

JJ has to come back to Ireland if he wants an international career (I can't see him declaring for England somehow!)

Is that an option? I mean hasn't he been capped for Ireland as part of Emerging Ireland/Wolfhounds and so can't become qualified for another nation?

The Lost Sheep

ec18 wrote: »

Is that an option? I mean hasn't he been capped for Ireland as part of Emerging Ireland/Wolfhounds and so can't become qualified for another nation?

He has only played for Emerging Ireland and not the wolfhounds. He is eligible to play for other countries on residency.

Stheno

ec18 wrote: »

Is that an option? I mean hasn't he been capped for Ireland as part of Emerging Ireland/Wolfhounds and so can't become qualified for another nation?

I asked this the other day in a different context, I think the answer is he can become qualified for another country if he was capped as Emerging, but not if he was capped for the wolfhounds.

Zzippy

Interesting blog article, maybe the author reads boards... :pac:

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

jm08 wrote: »

It probably would have happened in Leinster - a major reason why Henshaw has succeeded at provincial & international level is that he has the physical conditioning to be able to do so, unlike most of his contemporaries.

There's no way Henshaw would have been starting every single European Cup match for Leinster 3 years ago. Especially in the centre, and probably not even at FB. He would have made the breakthrough at Leinster eventually, no question, but there's no way he'd have displaced BOD, D'Arcy, Kearney or even Nacewa 3/4 years ago.

jm08

connemara man wrote: »

When Henshaw first made the first team for Connacht he was tiny compared to where he is now. It was only by playing and being spotted by Ireland and being in the environment that the targeted weight and muscle goals were introduced.

I think if you look at the limes if McCarthy and White who broke into the Ireland team by getting game time in Connacht it shows more of how it can work. Like even Quinn Roux has had a resurgence since transferring over and I'm sure Marshall will do the same.

But its not all about players to Connacht. Currently Ulster could do with a few backrows Munster and Leinster another centre option. Matches improve players over training and anything that can get the best players that are stuck behind an international or a leader playing regularly should be encouraged

Keith Earls was about the same age as Henshaw when he started out his provincial career (he was 20 and on the bench for the 08 HCup final and a regular starter for Munster after that). He was just gone 21 when he was first capped. Luke Fitz was capped even younger.

Earls said a while back that it seems the reason why he got so many injuries is because his body wasn't able for all the training & conditioning as his body was still growing (he was 21 or 22 at the time) and there was too much of a workload being put on his body.

Robbie looks to have been fully grown at 17 or 18 which is what I meant by him having the physical attributes.

All those players you mention had matured physically by the time they got to Connacht.

My point is a lot of those players are not physically developed enough at a young age to be able to play professional rugby and players like Henshaw and a few others are notable exceptions.

jm08

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

There's no way Henshaw would have been starting every single European Cup match for Leinster 3 years ago. Especially in the centre, and probably not even at FB. He would have made the breakthrough at Leinster eventually, no question, but there's no way he'd have displaced BOD, D'Arcy, Kearney or even Nacewa 3/4 years ago.

Luke Fitz was a regular H Cup starter for Leinster from the age of 20. Keith Earls was also 20 and on the bench for 08 HCup final.