Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread V

aimee1

awec wrote: »

It should be the same as any other transfer.

The system won't work if teams are putting effort in to improving guys only for some other team to reap the rewards. Why example should Munster put two years of effort into some lad from Belfast if he is just going to head back to Ulster after two seasons. Munster get no long term gain out of that, the winners are Ulster and the player in question.

Yes but ....

If each province takes one player and allows one to leave each summer then in theory it could work for every province. In practice it wont always work that way

jm08

ec18 wrote: »

Is that an option? I mean hasn't he been capped for Ireland as part of Emerging Ireland/Wolfhounds and so can't become qualified for another nation?

Wolfhounds are the A team and I don't think he has played for them - just Emerging Ireland.

The Pheasant2

If there was to be a "reallocation" of sorts which players would ye see sent where?

I'd send Madigan to Connacht
Dom Ryan to Connacht or Ulster
Maybe Jordi to Ulster
One of the Ulster centres to Munster

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

jm08 wrote: »

Luke Fitz was a regular H Cup starter for Leinster from the age of 20. Keith Earls was also 20 and on the bench for 08 HCup final.

What position was he playing and who did he displace from the team to become a starter?
I'm not saying it doesn't happen. I'm just saying that in Henshaw's case it did him no harm at all to be at Connacht proving some young players can benefit from not being bench warmers at Leinster.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

The Pheasant2 wrote: »

If there was to be a "reallocation" of sorts which players would ye see sent where?

I'd send Madigan to Connacht
Dom Ryan to Connacht or Ulster
Maybe Jordi to Ulster
One of the Ulster centres to Munster

Not even sure I'd send Madigan to Connacht now. They should have sent him before McGinty signed, or signed McGinty before he played for the US

connemara man

jm08 wrote: »

Keith Earls was about the same age as Henshaw when he started out his provincial career (he was 20 and on the bench for the 08 HCup final and a regular starter for Munster after that). He was just gone 21 when he was first capped. Luke Fitz was capped even younger.

Earls said a while back that it seems the reason why he got so many injuries is because his body wasn't able for all the training & conditioning as his body was still growing (he was 21 or 22 at the time) and there was too much of a workload being put on his body.

Robbie looks to have been fully grown at 17 or 18 which is what I meant by him having the physical attributes.

All those players you mention had matured physically by the time they got to Connacht.

My point is a lot of those players are not physically developed enough at a young age to be able to play professional rugby and players like Henshaw and a few others are notable exceptions.

I understand what you mean about what stage they're at in their own development. And I agree but I think lessons were learnt with Henshaw like for example I've seen him have to do extra aerobic work since the bulk went on to keep him safer and his natural step obviously. It's a shame that they were injured in that way and the coaching and S&C people around them should be looked at IMO just to make sure the same mistakes aren't made again.

I highlighted the other players more in the general point of how a province move has aided players to get into the national set up.

QuinDixie

Zzippy wrote: »

Let me guess. You'd pick CJ?

actually obrien at 8. everyone knows that is what he is. he is not a proper 7 and when he actually faces one he struggles.

QuinDixie

QuinDixie wrote: »

actually obrien at 8. everyone knows that is what he is. he is not a proper 7 and when he actually faces one he struggles.

Lol

Tarf1234

A quick thought on all the moving player x to x province. Who pays the wages? The IRFU do not pay all of the wages at every province and budgets at all 4 are different. For example would Leinster have to continue to pay Madigan if he was moved? Would Connacht be given some of Leinsters budget or would Leinster get the budget back?

From my understanding, Leinster have the biggest budget comfortably, Ulster second, Munster noticeably below them and Connacht last.

I really think on mass scale it is unrealistic. I know many players would not want to move from their current set up, working with coaches they know and respect and with guys they are used to playing and training with.

Would the accepting province be forced into picking that player every week? Can't imagine any player being happy to be forced to move and still not game time. For example could you guarantee Jordi/Dom Ryan starting games ahead of Henry, Henderson, Diack, Williams and Wilson at Ulster? Do Connacht just give Jack Carty the bump? Forget all the hard work he and Connacht have put into his development? Do McCluskey or Olding get guaranteed starter position ahead of Aki/Henshaw/Pewhairangi/Ronaldson/Parata, Reid/Fitz/Teo/O'Shea/Ringrose/Madigan or Hurley/Saili/Bleyedaal/Johnston/Scannel?

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Tarf1234 wrote: »

A quick thought on all the moving player x to x province. Who pays the wages? The IRFU do not pay all of the wages at every province and budgets at all 4 are different. For example would Leinster have to continue to pay Madigan if he was moved? Would Connacht be given some of Leinsters budget or would Leinster get the budget back?

From my understanding, Leinster have the biggest budget comfortably, Ulster second, Munster noticeably below them and Connacht last.

I really think I on mass scale it is unrealistic. I know many players would not want to move from their current set up, working with coaches they know and respect and with guys they are used to playing and training with.

Maybe on a mass scale but the wages issue shouldn't come into it at the younger level. Would Ringrose, for example, be on more money than say O'Halloran at Connacht? If he is there's a problem with that.
I don't know that any of these ideas would work for players already established at clubs but they could definitely be implemented at a younger age level to ensure in the future each province at least has the same level of access to the talent pool.

Zzippy

Tarf1234 wrote: »

A quick thought on all the moving player x to x province. Who pays the wages? The IRFU do not pay all of the wages at every province and budgets at all 4 are different. For example would Leinster have to continue to pay Madigan if he was moved? Would Connacht be given some of Leinsters budget or would Leinster get the budget back?

From my understanding, Leinster have the biggest budget comfortably, Ulster second, Munster noticeably below them and Connacht last.

I really think on mass scale it is unrealistic. I know many players would not want to move from their current set up, working with coaches they know and respect and with guys they are used to playing and training with.

Would the accepting province be forced into picking that player every week? Can't imagine any player being happy to be forced to move and still not game time. For example could you guarantee Jordi/Dom Ryan starting games ahead of Henry, Henderson, Diack, Williams and Wilson at Ulster? Do Connacht just give Jack Carty the bump? Forget all the hard work he and Connacht have put into his development? Do McCluskey or Olding get guaranteed starter position ahead of Aki/Henshaw/Pewhairangi/Ronaldson/Parata, Reid/Fitz/Teo/O'Shea/Ringrose/Madigan or Hurley/Saili/Bleyedaal/Johnston/Scannel?

We're talking broad brush principles and you're asking for fine art details. On the salary I presume the receiving team would pay the wages while they have a player on their books.
As for players not wanting to move, fine, stay on the bench but you won't be making the progress we want you to make for Irish rugby, so there won't be another cushy contract for you to warm the bench when you're finished this one.
Re your last point, it would be where a genuine gap is identified in a position. For instance, the player development pathway guru (Nucifora) might determine that Madigan really does need to move, and that Carty doesn't have the potential to play for Ireland, so Madigan gets the nod. Ulster have a surfeit of centres - why are Munster signing guys like Saili when they could have Olding/Marshall/McCloskey? Resident players are still expected to fight for that place, the new player should only start if he's good enough and better than the incumbent.

Tarf1234

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Maybe on a mass scale but the wages issue shouldn't come into it at the younger level. Would Ringrose, for example, be on more money than say O'Halloran at Connacht? If he is there's a problem with that.
I don't know that any of these ideas would work for players already established at clubs but they could definitely be implemented at a younger age level to ensure in the future each province at least has the same level of access to the talent pool.

It would not come into it for a Ringrose but for a Madigan or Jordi it would be significant amounts of money which I am sure Munster and Connacht wouldn't be able to afford within their current squads. I agree at the younger ages loan deals would be doable but don't see it being all that workable for more senior players.

Tarf1234

Zzippy wrote: »

We're talking broad brush principles and you're asking for fine art details. On the salary I presume the receiving team would pay the wages while they have a player on their books.
As for players not wanting to move, fine, stay on the bench but you won't be making the progress we want you to make for Irish rugby, so there won't be another cushy contract for you to warm the bench when you're finished this one.
Re your last point, it would be where a genuine gap is identified in a position. For instance, the player development pathway guru (Nucifora) might determine that Madigan really does need to move, and that Carty doesn't have the potential to play for Ireland, so Madigan gets the nod. Ulster have a surfeit of centres - why are Munster signing guys like Saili when they could have Olding/Marshall/McCloskey? Resident players are still expected to fight for that place, the new player should only start if he's good enough and better than the incumbent.

For anything to work 'fine arts', which I find a very odd way to describe the financials and playing aspects, are crucial. Connacht and Munster, the clubs I see as the most likely beneficiaries would not be able to afford the senior players wages into their current wage bills.

The value of adding NIQs has already been discussed and I am a big fan of having a few per team. Stander, Saili and Bleyedall will be key for Munster as many others have been over the years. Have Leinster not exponentially benefited from the impacts of Thorn, Nacewa and Elsom or Ulster from Pienear, Muller et al?

If you are sending the younger guys (the more practical options) surely they will not be guaranteed starts which would make them less likely to want to switch. At the moment I think there has been plenty of movement. Could there be more? Yes. I don't see the need for the mass hysteria and wanting to move guys who are progressing well or already playing to a high level.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Tarf1234 wrote: »

It would not come into it for a Ringrose but for a Madigan or Jordi it would be significant amounts of money which I am sure Munster and Connacht wouldn't be able to afford within their current squads. I agree at the younger ages loan deals would be doable but don't see it being all that workable for more senior players.

That's what I'm saying. With players over a certain age it's probably not going to work, they'd be very resistant to "forced" moves, but if it was introduced for a specific younger age range it could have long term benefits and in the future you would hopefully not be looking at players being bit part squad players at Leinster when they'd walk into the starting line up somewhere else.

Hindsight is 20/20 but the Madigan issue should have been addressed a few seasons ago. He's been moved around the Leinster backs for a long time now. There's nearly always been at least one, if not more, players ahead of him in each of the positions he plays. Granted he's good and I suppose backed himself to become a regular in the starting 15, and you'd admire him for that, but it hasn't happened, and again you'd wonder where he's going to fit in this coming season.

To be fair though I'd look at Madigan's situation purely in terms of what it means for Ireland. He is a regular feature in the Leinster squad and is more than just a bench warmer, so maybe he's not doing too badly. Then again he could have been playing 10 at Connacht week in week out for the past 2 seasons and come back to Leinster in a season or 2 when Sexton is done having had 3/4 years to really develop his play in one position.

jm08

Zzippy wrote: »

We're talking broad brush principles and you're asking for fine art details. On the salary I presume the receiving team would pay the wages while they have a player on their books.
As for players not wanting to move, fine, stay on the bench but you won't be making the progress we want you to make for Irish rugby, so there won't be another cushy contract for you to warm the bench when you're finished this one.
Re your last point, it would be where a genuine gap is identified in a position. For instance, the player development pathway guru (Nucifora) might determine that Madigan really does need to move, and that Carty doesn't have the potential to play for Ireland, so Madigan gets the nod. Ulster have a surfeit of centres - why are Munster signing guys like Saili when they could have Olding/Marshall/McCloskey? Resident players are still expected to fight for that place, the new player should only start if he's good enough and better than the incumbent.

The Munster physios' workload is heavy enough without adding some of the names you mention there ? :pac:

If Nucifora deemed that Madigan should move to Connacht, that could leave Leinster facing Toulon with Cathal Marsh running the team if Sexton was to get injured (and Sexton is very injury prone now). What use would that be to have Madigan playing some team no one has ever heard for up in Siberia?

Tarf1234

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

That's what I'm saying. With players over a certain age it's probably not going to work, they'd be very resistant to "forced" moves, but if it was introduced for a specific younger age range it could have long term benefits and in the future you would hopefully not be looking at players being bit part squad players at Leinster when they'd walk into the starting line up somewhere else.

Hindsight is 20/20 but the Madigan issue should have been addressed a few seasons ago. He's been moved around the Leinster backs for a long time now. There's nearly always been at least one, if not more, players ahead of him in each of the positions he plays. Granted he's good and I suppose backed himself to become a regular in the starting 15, and you'd admire him for that, but it hasn't happened, and again you'd wonder where he's going to fit in this coming season.

To be fair though I'd look at Madigan's situation purely in terms of what it means for Ireland. He is a regular feature in the Leinster squad and is more than just a bench warmer, so maybe he's not doing too badly. Then again he could have been playing 10 at Connacht week in week out for the past 2 seasons and come back to Leinster in a season or 2 when Sexton is done having had 3/4 years to really develop his play in one position.

Agree with a lot of what you are saying. Referring to the Madigan example, what if Sexton gets injured next week and is out for the season. Leinster are stuck with Marsh???? That would be a disaster for Leinster and probably Marsh! Every club will want decent back up. Look at the normal attrition rate during a season. People were complaining earlier about Tadgh Furlong being 3rd choice at Leinster yet last year he played in 26 games for Leinster as a 22 year old tight head, that's pretty incredible if you ask me. People appear to be very narrow focused here. Just because you're not first choice doesn't mean you're not going to play 15 plus games a year. Realistically how many games do the first choice internationals actually play anyway?

molloyjh

connemara man wrote: »

When Henshaw first made the first team for Connacht he was tiny compared to where he is now. It was only by playing and being spotted by Ireland and being in the environment that the targeted weight and muscle goals were introduced.

I think if you look at the limes if McCarthy and White who broke into the Ireland team by getting game time in Connacht it shows more of how it can work. Like even Quinn Roux has had a resurgence since transferring over and I'm sure Marshall will do the same.

But its not all about players to Connacht. Currently Ulster could do with a few backrows Munster and Leinster another centre option. Matches improve players over training and anything that can get the best players that are stuck behind an international or a leader playing regularly should be encouraged

This is the thing, it is being encouraged. That's exactly what Nucifora is there for. There may be cultural reasons for it not quite taking off yet, but that will change. I just don't like the idea of telling a guy that either he moves or he leaves. That is not a constructive way to manage people and just breeds resentment. And nobody wins in that situation.

jm08

Tarf1234 wrote: »

For anything to work 'fine arts', which I find a very odd way to describe the financials and playing aspects, are crucial. Connacht and Munster, the clubs I see as the most likely beneficiaries would not be able to afford the senior players wages into their current wage bills.

The value of adding NIQs has already been discussed and I am a big fan of having a few per team. Stander, Saili and Bleyedall will be key for Munster as many others have been over the years. Have Leinster not exponentially benefited from the impacts of Thorn, Nacewa and Elsom or Ulster from Pienear, Muller et al?

If you are sending the younger guys (the more practical options) surely they will not be guaranteed starts which would make them less likely to want to switch. At the moment I think there has been plenty of movement. Could there be more? Yes. I don't see the need for the mass hysteria and wanting to move guys who are progressing well or already playing to a high level.

From what I remember, Connacht offered more to Bundi Aki than Leinster or Munster, so I'm not sure your statement about Munster or Connacht is correct. Leinster may have more money to splash on wages, but that is probably down to international contracts and Denis O'Brien/Bank of Ireland topping up Sexton, Heaslip's and O'Brien's wages. There is nothing to stop Munster or Connacht also using such types of funding.

b.gud

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Hindsight is 20/20 but the Madigan issue should have been addressed a few seasons ago. He's been moved around the Leinster backs for a long time now. There's nearly always been at least one, if not more, players ahead of him in each of the positions he plays. Granted he's good and I suppose backed himself to become a regular in the starting 15, and you'd admire him for that, but it hasn't happened, and again you'd wonder where he's going to fit in this coming season.

I actually think Madigan made the right decision in extending his contract in Leinster as Johnny was off to France for at least 2 years so pretty much everyone figured the 10 jersey was going to be Madigans to lose, It's just a case of MOC not having faith in him. If you were to ask me now though if Madigan should move at the end of the season then I would say yes he should look to get starting time at 10 week in week out

jm08 wrote: »

The Munster physios' workload is heavy enough without adding some of the names you mention there ? :pac:

If Nucifora deemed that Madigan should move to Connacht, that could leave Leinster facing Toulon with Cathal Marsh running the team if Sexton was to get injured (and Sexton is very injury prone now). What use would that be to have Madigan playing some team no one has ever heard for up in Siberia?

I was sure that everyone was aware of the powerhouse of Russian rugby that is Enisei-STM*

*I totally didn't need to Google them as I'd forgotten their name

Zzippy

molloyjh wrote: »

This is the thing, it is being encouraged. That's exactly what Nucifora is there for. There may be cultural reasons for it not quite taking off yet, but that will change. I just don't like the idea of telling a guy that either he moves or he leaves. That is not a constructive way to manage people and just breeds resentment. And nobody wins in that situation.

I posted this earlier, suggests that Nucifora's appointment is not working out the way it was maybe supposed to.

Zzippy wrote: »

Interesting blog article, maybe the author reads boards... :pac:

Tarf1234 wrote: »

For anything to work 'fine arts', which I find a very odd way to describe the financials and playing aspects, are crucial. Connacht and Munster, the clubs I see as the most likely beneficiaries would not be able to afford the senior players wages into their current wage bills.

The value of adding NIQs has already been discussed and I am a big fan of having a few per team. Stander, Saili and Bleyedall will be key for Munster as many others have been over the years. Have Leinster not exponentially benefited from the impacts of Thorn, Nacewa and Elsom or Ulster from Pienear, Muller et al?

If you are sending the younger guys (the more practical options) surely they will not be guaranteed starts which would make them less likely to want to switch. At the moment I think there has been plenty of movement. Could there be more? Yes. I don't see the need for the mass hysteria and wanting to move guys who are progressing well or already playing to a high level.

I (for one anyway) am not talking about senior players like Madigan. It's too late for him. It's about younger guys who are 3rd or 4th choice at their province, and won't get significant gametime until they maybe hit 24 or 25, depending on the players ahead of them. A proper succession pathway program might ID that they would be on a par with the first choice in another province, and significantly ahead of 2nd choice there, so they are likely to get significantly more gametime there. It's not about guaranteeing gametime, they still have to earn it, but likely by the time they're 24/25 they'll have a lot more experience than they would have playing B&I Cup or AIL.

There's no hysteria, just considered debate about what people think could be done to improve the standard of Irish rugby players.

Tarf1234

Just because Connacht offered more money to 1 layer doesn't mean they have more money. Compare the 4 squads player by player and it is pretty obvious who has the most money

awec

QuinDixie wrote: »

actually obrien at 8. everyone knows that is what he is. he is not a proper 7 and when he actually faces one he struggles.

Have you ever seen SOB at 8? He is nothing special.

molloyjh

Zzippy wrote: »

I posted this earlier, suggests that Nucifora's appointment is not working out the way it was maybe supposed to.

I (for one anyway) am not talking about senior players like Madigan. It's too late for him. It's about younger guys who are 3rd or 4th choice at their province, and won't get significant gametime until they maybe hit 24 or 25, depending on the players ahead of them. A proper succession pathway program might ID that they would be on a par with the first choice in another province, and significantly ahead of 2nd choice there, so they are likely to get significantly more gametime there. It's not about guaranteeing gametime, they still have to earn it, but likely by the time they're 24/25 they'll have a lot more experience than they would have playing B&I Cup or AIL.

There's no hysteria, just considered debate about what people think could be done to improve the standard of Irish rugby players.

I'll tell you what, give us a list of a handful of players that you think should move. It might be easier to have a discussion based on that.

jm08

Tarf1234 wrote: »

Just because Connacht offered more money to 1 layer doesn't mean they have more money. Compare the 4 squads player by player and it is pretty obvious who has the most money

I'm not so sure that reasoning applies as international contracts would muddy the water and after the top players are taken out of the equasion, I can't see there being too much of a difference on their wages (after Healy, would props in Leinster be on much more than in the other provinces?)

If you want to look at it monetarily comparisons, many of the Leinster young guns are probably on their first full contract, so wouldn't be on that much. It hasn't stopped players like Jordi Coghlan & Andrew Conway moving either (and Coghlan didn't go to Ulster where he wouldn't have had as much competition for a starting spot).

Leinster (55) seem to have a much larger squad than Munster (41) & Ulster (45) though which will eat up any of that excess cash they have.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

molloyjh wrote: »

I'll tell you what, give us a list of a handful of players that you think should move. It might be easier to have a discussion based on that.

I don't see why you need specific names to contribute to a hypothetical conversation we've been having all day with no problems.

mfceiling

QuinDixie wrote: »

actually obrien at 8. everyone knows that is what he is. he is not a proper 7 and when he actually faces one he struggles.

I wasn't aware that everyone knows that O'Brien is actually a number 8.

Can you send Leo Cullen and Joe Schmidt an email telling them as well cause it looks like they've been inadvertently playing him out of position. Best to actually CC O'Brien on that email as well cause he doesn't seem to know he's an 8 as well.

.ak

QuinDixie wrote: »

actually obrien at 8. everyone knows that is what he is. he is not a proper 7 and when he actually faces one he struggles.

Apart from the two times he completely outplayed mccaw. Unless you're suggesting mccaw isn't a proper 7?

People are too obsessed with what the idea of a 7 is. O'Brien is a world class 7. Very few ahead of him.

Zzippy

molloyjh wrote: »

I'll tell you what, give us a list of a handful of players that you think should move. It might be easier to have a discussion based on that.

Did you read the link? The author posited a number of players who would have benefited from such a transfer system. Off the top of my head Caolin Blade at Connacht is one who would spring to mind. Currently 4th choice at Connacht but I think he'd push Marshall at Ulster for the spot behind Pienaar. Sam Arnold at Ulster is stuck behind a rake of good centres. Munster are short a fullback now with Jones retired, Rory Scholes at Ulster might progress better there. Jack Conan or Dan Leavy would probably get more games at Ulster.

AbusesToilets

mfceiling wrote: »

I wasn't aware that everyone knows that O'Brien is actually a number 8.

Can you send Leo Cullen and Joe Schmidt an email telling them as well cause it looks like they've been inadvertently playing him out of position. Best to actually CC O'Brien on that email as well cause he doesn't seem to know he's an 8 as well.

O'Brien was originally a 6 I thought?

part time punk

awec wrote: »

Have you ever seen SOB at 8? He is nothing special.

That's why he needs to be moved to Connaught to get more game time as an 8. He's wasted stuck behind Heaslip at Leinster

.ak

AbusesToilets wrote: »

O'Brien was originally a 6 I thought?

Actually not true.

QuinDixie

JH when he came on the scene first was excellent, Wallace, Ferris and himself are, for me, our best ever back row.
But, maybe it was Wallace and then ferris retiring, but Heaslip is not the same player.
What we could have done with Ferris against Argentina, now ferris was a world class player, the same goes for Wallace at 2011 world cup.

QuinDixie

awec wrote: »

Have you ever seen SOB at 8? He is nothing special.

he would be a good replacement for the man whose currently there so.:)

Deano7788

QuinDixie wrote: »

JH when he came on the scene first was excellent, Wallace, Ferris and himself are, for me, our best ever back row.
But, maybe it was Wallace and then ferris retiring, but Heaslip is not the same player.
What we could have done with Ferris against Argentina, now ferris was a world class player, the same goes for Wallace at 2011 world cup.

Wallace wasn't at 2011. You may recall an incident just before it...

QuinDixie

Deano7788 wrote: »

Wallace wasn't at 2011. You may recall an incident just before it...

i request you read my post again, taking great care to read the last line very slowly.

Tarf1234

jm08 wrote: »

I'm not so sure that reasoning applies as international contracts would muddy the water and after the top players are taken out of the equasion, I can't see there being too much of a difference on their wages (after Healy, would props in Leinster be on much more than in the other provinces?)

If you want to look at it monetarily comparisons, many of the Leinster young guns are probably on their first full contract, so wouldn't be on that much. It hasn't stopped players like Jordi Coghlan & Andrew Conway moving either (and Coghlan didn't go to Ulster where he wouldn't have had as much competition for a starting spot).

Leinster (55) seem to have a much larger squad than Munster (41) & Ulster (45) though which will eat up any of that excess cash they have.

In relation to the props I would imagine Jack McGrath and Marty are probably the next highest paid props (excluding maybe BJ). Certainly no other province would have second choice props paid that highly. My understanding is that central contracts are paid by province and country i.e. the IRFU contract is a top up.

Jordo and Andrew Conway were both out of contract and not on significant money. These kinds of moves are becoming relatively regular. I don't have any issue with that. Neither player was forced to move and made their own decision, so they don't really apply to the situation of forcing moves.

Your last point makes my point even stronger.

part time punk

QuinDixie wrote: »

i request you read my post again, taking great care to read the last line very slowly.

I have read that badly punctuated line again and it still doesn't make sense. Do you mean sentence? Are you trying to say Ferris was world class at the 2011 World Cup? What is your point about Wallace as he wasn't at that World Cup?

captbarnacles

He means we needed Wallace at 2011 WC I believe. Yeah, it didn't read that way to me either.

molloyjh

part time punk wrote: »

I have read that badly punctuated line again and it still doesn't make sense. Do you mean sentence? Are you trying to say Ferris was world class at the 2011 World Cup? What is your point about Wallace as he wasn't at that World Cup?

I think (s)he meant that we could have done with Wallace in 2011. Personally I don't know about that. I was always a huge fan of Wally. He was a fantastic player. But our back row in 2011 was excellent. Having Wally there would have given us more options but I don't think would have improved things to any serious degree.

Either way the point being made about Heaslip is still rubbish. But I'm not at all surprised.

Neil3030

Maslow's hierarchy of what to complain about in Irish rugby:


...........................Sexton................................
...................Toner Toner Toner........................
........Schmidt Schmidt Schmidt Schmidt.............
..Heaslip Heaslip Heaslip Heaslip Heaslip Heaslip..

Start at the top, and see if Sexton had one of his rare off days. Failing that, move onto Toner, as more likely he started ahead of a supposed superior lock (Foley, Henderson, Touhy, etc). Failing that, move onto Schmidt's gameplan, quite likely it was one-dimensional and negative. Failing that, you can always, always, always complain about Heaslip. Always.

Tarf1234

Neil3030 wrote: »

Maslow's hierarchy of what to complain about in Irish rugby:


...........................Sexton................................
...................Toner Toner Toner........................
........Schmidt Schmidt Schmidt Schmidt.............
..Heaslip Heaslip Heaslip Heaslip Heaslip Heaslip..

Start at the top, and see if Sexton had one of his rare off days. Failing that, move onto Toner, as more likely he started ahead of a supposed superior lock (Foley, Henderson, Touhy, etc). Failing that, move onto Schmidt's gameplan, quite likely it was one-dimensional and negative. Failing that, you can always, always, always complain about Heaslip. Always.

Haha this is brilliant!! You forgot Healy and the Kearneys, they are always awful and need to be berated as well, or would they fit in with the Schmidt level?

rrpc

Tarf1234 wrote: »

Haha this is brilliant!! You forgot Healy and the Kearneys, they are always awful and need to be berated as well, or would they fit in with the Schmidt level?

I think they fit into a different hierarchy which possibly isn't as structured as Neil3030s:

Sexton bottles important kicks
Sean O'Brien is not a Genuine Openside™
Heaslip can't carry
Rob Kearney can't tackle
Rob Kearney can't find space to run into
Dave Kearney can't tackle

.ak

Another tier would be complaining about Earls isn't a centre.

Stheno

.ak wrote: »

Another tier would be complaining about Earls isn't a centre.

And Murray kicks too much

Pudsy33

Stheno wrote: »

And Murray kicks too much

SOB isn't a genuine openside either.

b.gud

.ak wrote: »

Another tier would be complaining about Earls isn't a centre.

Our centres can't attack

Bogsnorkler

b.gud wrote: »

Our centres can't attack

Jackson v madigan

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Just looking at the Leinster squad for this weekend. International players have returned and going back to what we were talking about yesterday, VDF and Reid dropped to the bench, Ringrose out of the squad entirely. Barring injury it'll probably be the 6 Nations before some of those guys get a proper run out again.

Interesting there's no sign of Madigan. Has he been given extra time off?

rrpc

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Just looking at the Leinster squad for this weekend. International players have returned and going back to what we were talking about yesterday, VDF and Reid dropped to the bench, Ringrose out of the squad entirely. Barring injury it'll probably be the 6 Nations before some of those guys get a proper run out again.

Interesting there's no sign of Madigan. Has he been given extra time off?

With the European matches looming swiftly, it's probably very important to get the international players back on the pitch and up to speed.

I'd say there are enough matches to go around, but the priority has to be the upcoming ECC games now.

Neil3030

F**k me, I've opened the floodgates of hell here!! Let's see if I can incorporate all of the suggestions into the model.

Tarf1234 wrote: »

Haha this is brilliant!! You forgot Healy and the Kearneys, they are always awful and need to be berated as well, or would they fit in with the Schmidt level?

I'll split the schmidt layer into One Dimensional Gameplan (1D) and Uncle Joe's favourites.

Let's put Healy under a new layer "Uncle Joe's favourites", which will include Toner.

Kearneys deserve their own layer for sure. It's a toss up between them and Heaslip for the most solid and consistent lamentable point. Actually here's what I'll do - create a layer of "Schroedinger's Jocks", that paradoxical state into which both Heaslip and the Kearneys fall, whereby you are both a fancy boy, but never do anything flash befitting your position. I.e., Kearney never offloads, Heaslip can't beat 8 defenders with a sidestep.

rrpc wrote: »

I think they fit into a different hierarchy which possibly isn't as structured as Neil3030s:

Sexton bottles important kicks
Sean O'Brien is not a Genuine Openside™
Heaslip can't carry
Rob Kearney can't tackle
Rob Kearney can't find space to run into
Dave Kearney can't tackle

Sexton already has his layer.

Re: SOB, adding a new layer "Players out of position (POOP)" - this will incorporate SOB at 8, Payne at 15, Earls is a winger, etc.

Re: Heaslip and Kearneys - see "Schroedinger's Jocks" above.

.ak wrote: »

Another tier would be complaining about Earls isn't a centre.

New layer - POOP, see above.

Stheno wrote: »

And Murray kicks too much

New layer - Gameplan (1D) - see above.

Pudsy33 wrote: »

SOB isn't a genuine openside either.

New layer - POOP, see above.

b.gud wrote: »

Our centres can't attack

We're too one dimensional. See 1D above.

Bogsnorkler wrote: »

Jackson v madigan

Madigan is one of uncle Joe's favourites, so I'll incorporate him there.

Now it's just a matter of ordering the probabilities... how about:

...............................................................Sexton................................................................
..........................................Uncle Joe's Favs........Uncle Joe's Favs..........................................
...................................POOP.......................POOP..................POOP......................................
........................1D........................1D..........................1D........................1D........................
Shroeds Jocks.........Schroeds Jocks........Schroeds Jocks........Schroeds Jocks........Schroeds Jocks

So just to recap -

First check that Sexton had a mare with the boot, then scan the team for some of Uncle Joe's favs (Healy, Toner, Payne), then give out about SOB being a better 8, Payne being a better fullback, then you can move into the more reliable territory of complaining about how limited, one dimensional and boring we are (Box kicks, bad midfielders, etc), then if you are still stuck, you can take the old reliable schroedinger's jock, take a Kearney or Heaslip, your choice, and complain that they are just fancy boys who do nothing fancy.