Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread V

Tarf1234

Neil3030 thank you... That is excellent

Neil3030

Tarf1234 wrote: »

Neil3030 thank you... That is excellent

:pac:

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Forgive me if this was already discussed, it probably was, but is it only if you've signed a contract with a Province that you're also contracted to the National set up? I'm just wondering about POC, we don't have a rule that excludes players playing abroad but I assume it's the fact that his contract is no longer with an Irish team that he can actually retire from the international team?

Tarf1234

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Forgive me if this was already discussed, it probably was, but is it only if you've signed a contract with a Province that you're also contracted to the National set up? I'm just wondering about POC, we don't have a rule that excludes players playing abroad but I assume it's the fact that his contract is no longer with an Irish team that he can actually retire from the international team?

Yes, once you have signed for a province the IRFU is you end employer as far as I know. As such the IRFU can enforce the rule of no retirement from international rugby. I'm not really sure if there is any case in which they'd actually enforce it though. Once POC's contract was complete they lost any contractual power over him.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Tarf1234 wrote: »

Yes, once you have signed for a province the IRFU is you end employer as far as I know. As such the IRFU can enforce the rule of no retirement from international rugby. I'm not really sure if there is any case in which they'd actually enforce it though. Once POC's contract was complete they lost any contractual power over him.

Yeah, I remember a few weeks back there was a rumour about Sexton planning on quitting Ireland to reduce the demand on him and see out his career just at Leinster. People pointed out that he couldn't really do that because of the IRFU contract situation. Would be interesting to see if they'd enforce it if he wanted to just focus on Leinster. (not that I believe there's any truth in it anyway)

b.gud

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Yeah, I remember a few weeks back there was a rumour about Sexton planning on quitting Ireland to reduce the demand on him and see out his career just at Leinster. People pointed out that he couldn't really do that because of the IRFU contract situation. Would be interesting to see if they'd enforce it if he wanted to just focus on Leinster. (not that I believe there's any truth in it anyway)

Quitting is not really a word I'd associate with Sexton to be honest.

CatFromHue

David Humphreys did kind of retire from the national team but he wasn't first choice, hadn't been for awhile, and was still available in an emergency, I think.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

CatFromHue wrote: »

David Humphreys did kind of retire from the national team but he wasn't first choice, hadn't been for awhile, and was still available in an emergency, I think.

Did O'Gara play for Munster after "retiring" from Ireland?

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

b.gud wrote: »

Quitting is not really a word I'd associate with Sexton to be honest.

Multiple definitions of the word.

Dravokivich

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Did O'Gara play for Munster after "retiring" from Ireland?

Well his last season for both Ireland and Munster was 2012/13. I'm pretty sure he played for Munster at the end of the season.

According to his profile on Munster's website his last match was 27th April 2013 against Clermont.

http://www.munsterrugby.ie/rugby/first_team_squad.php?player=3902&includeref=dynamic

CatFromHue

ROG never retired from Ireland, he just retired from the game completely.

Podge_irl

CatFromHue wrote: »

ROG never retired from Ireland, he just retired from the game completely.

Well he had that little retirement strop after the Australia WC game, but no he didn't ultimately retire from international rugby. It was pointed out at the time he couldn't have anyway.

Journeyman_1

It looked like he tried to retire from international rugby when he did that cross-field kick again Scotland....

*shudders*

jm08

CatFromHue wrote: »

David Humphreys did kind of retire from the national team but he wasn't first choice, hadn't been for awhile, and was still available in an emergency, I think.

He declined to go to the 2007 world cup. He retired from Ulster in 2008.

He retired from International rugby in 2006:

RUGBY: Humphreys and Corrigan retire from Ireland team

Ireland fly-half David Humphreys and prop Reggie Corrigan have announced their retirement from international rugby.

Humphreys, 34, has won 72 caps but was not used during the RBS 6 Nations Championship as Ireland won the Triple Crown.

He will continue playing for Celtic League side Ulster after agreeing a new one-year deal.

Humphreys said: "I have not played so much with Ireland this year and it`s now time to concentrate on Ulster a bit more,"

"It would have been very easy to retire completely but looking at the quality of young players coming through I think there are very exciting times ahead for Ulster and I want to be a part of that."

Humphreys made his Ireland debut in the Five Nations against France in 1996 and went on to score 560 Test points.

QuinDixie

part time punk wrote: »

I have read that badly punctuated line again and it still doesn't make sense. Do you mean sentence? Are you trying to say Ferris was world class at the 2011 World Cup? What is your point about Wallace as he wasn't at that World Cup?

Try again deano, but slower again this time.

QuinDixie

Neil3030 wrote: »

Maslow's hierarchy of what to complain about in Irish rugby:


...........................Sexton................................
...................Toner Toner Toner........................
........Schmidt Schmidt Schmidt Schmidt.............
..Heaslip Heaslip Heaslip Heaslip Heaslip Heaslip..

Start at the top, and see if Sexton had one of his rare off days. Failing that, move onto Toner, as more likely he started ahead of a supposed superior lock (Foley, Henderson, Touhy, etc). Failing that, move onto Schmidt's gameplan, quite likely it was one-dimensional and negative. Failing that, you can always, always, always complain about Heaslip. Always.

With Maslows hierarchy pyramid, you start at the bottom and work your way up.
You have the right man at the bottom.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Interview with Andrew Conway on TG4 there and he was talking about his move to Munster from Leinster.

He mentioned how hard it was to get into the Leinster squad a few seasons ago, especially when you were still learning. Particularly under Schmidt there was no room for mistakes which is understandable from a coaches point of view, but as a young player still trying to learn the game it makes it difficult.

He said when the move to Munster became a possibility his friends were trying to talk him out of it but his gut told him the move to Munster was the best choice.

Again with what we were talking about yesterday it's an interesting point of view.

jacothelad

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Did O'Gara play for Munster after "retiring" from Ireland?

Yes. From 2011....:D

bilston

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Interview with Andrew Conway on TG4 there and he was talking about his move to Munster from Leinster.

He mentioned how hard it was to get into the Leinster squad a few seasons ago, especially when you were still learning. Particularly under Schmidt there was no room for mistakes which is understandable from a coaches point of view, but as a young player still trying to learn the game it makes it difficult.

He said when the move to Munster became a possibility his friends were trying to talk him out of it but his gut told him the move to Munster was the best choice.

Again with what we were talking about yesterday it's an interesting point of view.

It is interesting to read the bit about making mistakes and I have to wonder if there is room for at least one maverick in the team like Zebo or Gilroy, even Fitzgerald could be included in this. Yes will make an error here and there, but also they possess the ability to cut teams open at any given moment. Moving forward does Joe need to be more open to the idea of giving some of these guys a chance and just be accepting of the risk that comes with them?

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

bilston wrote: »

It is interesting to read the bit about making mistakes and I have to wonder if there is room for at least one maverick in the team like Zebo or Gilroy, even Fitzgerald could be included in this. Yes will make an error here and there, but also they possess the ability to cut teams open at any given moment. Moving forward does Joe need to be more open to the idea of giving some of these guys a chance and just be accepting of the risk that comes with them?

Well his attitude may be different with the Ireland team, although it probably isn't.
I don't think Conway was talking about risky players. He mean more when a young player is making the step up from the academy or wherever you needed to be 100% ready to go if given a shot. The wealth of choice Leinster have make it difficult for a player to ease in or learn on the job the way you may be able to at a club that has less players to choose from.

Schmidt is going to have to start taking a few risks in certain positions though given the age of some players. FB is one that has no obvious successor to Rob K and even if he decides to stick with Zebo it's still a risk as he is known as a "risky" player and it's a position he'd still have a bit to learn in.

Pink Fairy

We've really got to stop with this square pegs in round holes. Zebo is a winger, and a fine one at that, put him at full back and you lose his attacking ability

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Pink Fairy wrote: »

We've really got to stop with this square pegs in round holes. Zebo is a winger, and a fine one at that, put him at full back and you lose his attacking ability

Most of our backs at the WC seemed to be selected on theit ability to fit into round holes.......

Seriously though, we had a specialist 10 and 13 in the camp and went with 2 "utility" backs when the starters were out.

I understand the appeal of having that kind of player in your squad but at some point you have to question if it's detrimental to other players.

jacothelad

Pink Fairy wrote: »

We've really got to stop with this square pegs in round holes. Zebo is a winger, and a fine one at that, put him at full back and you lose his attacking ability

Ordinarily I might agree but full back can and should be a position from which a team attacks. When Payne was playing there for Ulster, their back line was far more potent because of his attacking skills. R.K. doesn't really create these as he won't pass and runs up blind alleyways far too often when there are alternatives. Some of the best backs in history have been attacking full backs. To be honest, while I'm probably alone in thinking this, I'd rather have Zebo there these days than ROB. We have plenty of wingers but seem to have a paucity of high quality full backs.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

jacothelad wrote: »

Ordinarily I might agree but full back can and should be a position from which a team attacks. When Payne was playing there for Ulster, their back line was far more potent because of his attacking skills. R.K. doesn't really create these as he won't pass and runs up blind alleyways far too often when there are alternatives. Some of the best backs in history have been attacking full backs. To be honest, while I'm probably alone in thinking this, I'd rather have Zebo there these days than ROB. We have plenty of wingers but seem to have a paucity of high quality full backs.

Conway was saying yesterday that he always preferred playing FB because you get a bit more space there, more opportunity to attack or start a move. If you look at the likes of Le Roux or Folau or even Mike Brown, when they're on form, they're much more creative and attacking than anything we've seen from Rob K of late. Obviously it's important to bare in mind that Schmidt obviously wants his FB doing what Kearney does or he wouldn't be there, but I see no harm in having a variety of styles available for that position.

Would be interesting to see Payne moved back to FB for Ireland if McCloskey and Henshaw were to play 12 and 13.

irishbucsfan

Field position is much more important in the modern game than it's ever been. That's why full backs are selected who guarrantee this over full backs who offer attacking options out wide. We're not alone there, in the 6 Nations alone the likes of Halfpenny, Spedding and Brown are similarly specialised. Kearney is probably the best there is at that one facet of the game, that's why he starts and that's why he's so highly regarded.

In support of that, going on past evidence, if Schmidt didn't start Nacewa in his prime at full back ahead of Kearney then there's isn't the tiniest sliver of a chance he would start Zebo or Payne ahead of him.

Pink Fairy

Genuine question, is Kearney that highly regarded anymore? When I think of top international full backs in the world, Kearney doesn't spring to mind anymore, am I alone in thinking that, or should Payne be given a shot in his proper position this 6n coming?

rrpc

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Most of our backs at the WC seemed to be selected on theit ability to fit into round holes.......

Seriously though, we had a specialist 10 and 13 in the camp and went with 2 "utility" backs when the starters were out.

I understand the appeal of having that kind of player in your squad but at some point you have to question if it's detrimental to other players.

I think that's a function of the limited squad size tbh. Out of the 31, we had 17 forwards which left 14 backs, of which 5 were half backs. That meant that in total we had 9 players covering the centres and back three so some players had to double up position wise.

We ended up with three 'utility' players: Zebo, Fitz and Earls any of which could have had the 23 shirt. Earls had to fill in (temporarily but which turned out to be permanently) for Payne and Fitz finished up replacing Bowe from the 23 slot. In retrospect our first injury hit us where we were weakest and dictated the course of the rest of the tournament.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

rrpc wrote: »

I think that's a function of the limited squad size tbh. Out of the 31, we had 17 forwards which left 14 backs, of which 5 were half backs. That meant that in total we had 9 players covering the centres and back three so some players had to double up position wise.

We ended up with three 'utility' players: Zebo, Fitz and Earls any of which could have had the 23 shirt. Earls had to fill in (temporarily but which turned out to be permanently) for Payne and Fitz finished up replacing Bowe from the 23 slot. In retrospect our first injury hit us where we were weakest and dictated the course of the rest of the tournament.

I think you have to include Madigan in the "utility" bracket. I know he mostly only played at 10 but I'd be fairly confident in saying his ability to cover more than one position helps his case.

shuffol

Pink Fairy wrote: »

Genuine question, is Kearney that highly regarded anymore? When I think of top international full backs in the world, Kearney doesn't spring to mind anymore, am I alone in thinking that, or should Payne be given a shot in his proper position this 6n coming?

He won't jump into many people's minds because he doesn't provide the sexy pieces of play that people tend to recall more easily. He's a technical FB who as IBF said does his primary job better than anyone.

I think every fan would love to have a counter attacking FB but to be effective at test level you really need to be exceptional. I guess if your Schimdt your thinking that a counter attacker like Zebo can be negated whereas somebody like Kearneys primary skills will always give you good value.

It's a similar reason why I think Gilroy will find it hard to break into the Irish side.

Pink Fairy

shuffol wrote: »

He won't jump into many people's minds because he doesn't provide the sexy pieces of play that people tend to recall more easily. He's a technical FB who as IBF said does his primary job better than anyone.

I think every fan would love to have a counter attacking FB but do be effective at test level you really need to be exceptional. I guess if your Schimdt your thinking that a counter attacker like Zebo can be negated whereas somebody like Kearneys primary skills will always give you good value.

It's a similar reason why I think Gilroy will find it hard to break into the Irish side.

I was thinking that 3-4 years ago Kearney was highly regarded and would be name checked as being 1 of the top fb's in the world, but not anymore. Have others gotten better, or has he regressed?

shuffol

Pink Fairy wrote: »

I was thinking that 3-4 years ago Kearney was highly regarded and would be name checked as being 1 of the top fb's in the world, but not anymore. Have others gotten better, or has he regressed?

In 2012 he'd a wonder season, very hard to keep that standard up. He also probably suffers from having almost no competition for his jersey.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

shuffol wrote: »

In 2012 he'd a wonder season, very hard to keep that standard up. He also probably suffers from having almost no competition for his jersey.

Interesting to see if Isa gives him a push at Leinster this season. Even just the threat of someone else there might force him to up his game a bit. Not that I think there's much wrong with what he does, just in terms of the other FBs of World Rugby.

Flipper22

bilston wrote: »

It is interesting to read the bit about making mistakes and I have to wonder if there is room for at least one maverick in the team like Zebo or Gilroy, even Fitzgerald could be included in this. Yes will make an error here and there, but also they possess the ability to cut teams open at any given moment. Moving forward does Joe need to be more open to the idea of giving some of these guys a chance and just be accepting of the risk that comes with them?

I'm not sure that these so-called maverick players are really capable of causing damage consistently at test level though. Zebo and Gilroy have both had significant chances at test level and while they've performed decently overall we haven't seen any real 'x factor' moments. Fitz on the other hand cut the argies up twice. While I think Zebo is a better footballer than the likes of DK, Bowe, Trimble, and Gilroy has better feet, in terms of adding value at test level I don't really see it happening.

Rightwing

Pink Fairy wrote: »

Genuine question, is Kearney that highly regarded anymore? When I think of top international full backs in the world, Kearney doesn't spring to mind anymore, am I alone in thinking that, or should Payne be given a shot in his proper position this 6n coming?

Two schools of thought on the matter.

If you like your high kicks, chase and catching game, Kearney is great. So for Schmidt and most of Europe he is 1 of the best.

If you like an expansive running game, he's nowhere on the list. So for the S Hemi teams, he wouldn't get a look in.

davegrohl48

The one thing with Zebo is those fairly regular occurrences in games where the full back has to sprint to one wing. He gets there much earlier than our other alternatives. He seems comfortable in the air. His pace goes a little underrated as he has such an effortless stride. Against England he had in the first half to come over to bring a ball into touch. He got there early, no fuss, made it look like there was never any danger when a slower full back might not get there in time. A place needs to be found for him somewhere as we need more pace.

AbusesToilets

Rightwing wrote: »

Two schools of thought on the matter.

If you like your high kicks, chase and catching game, Kearney is great. So for Schmidt and most of Europe he is 1 of the best.

If you like an expansive running game, he's nowhere on the list. So for the S Hemi teams, he wouldn't get a look in.

That's kind of funny, I remember when he was coming through and folks were talking about how he mixed the best of Girve and Geordan, solid under the ball and creative in attack. I miss that Rob.

Ceadog

Something I've noticed about Kearney, he rarely makes a break on the counter, but he almost never gets turned over either. I can't remember if it was someone from the Irish camp who said it, but apparently Rob is great because he always runs to where his pack is so he won't get turned over.

I mean, it's incredibly conservative, but it fits Schmidtball exactly.

bilston

Flipper22 wrote: »

I'm not sure that these so-called maverick players are really capable of causing damage consistently at test level though. Zebo and Gilroy have both had significant chances at test level and while they've performed decently overall we haven't seen any real 'x factor' moments. Fitz on the other hand cut the argies up twice. While I think Zebo is a better footballer than the likes of DK, Bowe, Trimble, and Gilroy has better feet, in terms of adding value at test level I don't really see it happening.

We saw a fair few 'X factor' moments from Gilroy on his debut against Argentina!

jm08

Flipper22 wrote: »

I'm not sure that these so-called maverick players are really capable of causing damage consistently at test level though. Zebo and Gilroy have both had significant chances at test level and while they've performed decently overall we haven't seen any real 'x factor' moments. Fitz on the other hand cut the argies up twice. While I think Zebo is a better footballer than the likes of DK, Bowe, Trimble, and Gilroy has better feet, in terms of adding value at test level I don't really see it happening.

The gameplan is safety first. D'Arcy (I think) said in one of his articles that Rob runs to a predesignated spot where everyone knows he is going without having to think about it. Bit robotic, but there you go.

jm08

Ceadog wrote: »

Something I've noticed about Kearney, he rarely makes a break on the counter, but he almost never gets turned over either. I can't remember if it was someone from the Irish camp who said it, but apparently Rob is great because he always runs to where his pack is so he won't get turned over.

I mean, it's incredibly conservative, but it fits Schmidtball exactly.

Some queries as to why Schmidt doesn't seem to rate Cave - from what I can see he (Cave) hasn't got the pace or the athleticism to be first to the breakdown every time. Murray Kinsella did some analysis on first to get to ruck etc, 2nd and Keith Earls was top for getting there first and featured high as second.

Teferi

Ceadog wrote: »

Something I've noticed about Kearney, he rarely makes a break on the counter, but he almost never gets turned over either. I can't remember if it was someone from the Irish camp who said it, but apparently Rob is great because he always runs to where his pack is so he won't get turned over.

I mean, it's incredibly conservative, but it fits Schmidtball exactly.

It is not conservative to run where your support is.

molloyjh

Teferi wrote: »

It is not conservative to run where your support is.

I'd love to see some examples of counter attacking full back play from the RWC against top opposition. I'm not sure there's much, if any at all. The modern game just doesn't facilitate that so much any more. Jaco mentioned that some of the best FBs in history have been attacking FBs. But the problem with that is that it is history. With the levels of accuracy from the current professionals you can't afford not to have someone who is positionally good and reliable under the high ball. And being able to negate an oppositions kicking game and ensure good clean ball in the process is a big bloody deal. It's not sexy, but it's damn important.

If the job was easy Rob wouldn't be the only real option we have. If we wanted to be honest about it the issue is that nobody else is stepping up. It's easy to knock the guy that is there doing the job. It's a lot harder to acknowledge that other options simply haven't been developed or haven't come through.

alias no.9

Teferi wrote: »

It is not conservative to run where your support is.

Well its certainly not conservative to run away from your support!

It's conservative to never look for a gap or a pass, even if you only occasionally do it, it will keep a defence more honest.

irishbucsfan

molloyjh wrote: »

I'd love to see some examples of counter attacking full back play from the RWC against top opposition. I'm not sure there's much, if any at all.

Not disagreeing with your overall point, however Joaquin Tuculet is the man to watch if you're looking for it!

Clearlier

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Not disagreeing with your overall point, however Joaquin Tuculet is the man to watch if you're looking for it!

He's an excellent runner but does he ever actually link up with other players?

the baby bull elephant

While I think Kearney is our best fullback and he's clearly doing what he's ordered to there's some pretty great counter attacking fullbacks out there in Smith, Folau, Tuculet and Brown. Of course they don't all run every time but when they do it's usually towards space. However for most of them it's part of their system and counterattacking in the modern game really does require a buy in from the whole team.

Flipper22

bilston wrote: »

We saw a fair few 'X factor' moments from Gilroy on his debut against Argentina!

Did we? Don't remember that game all too well tbh, I do remember him scoring off a nice inside ball from Jonny.

.ak

Christ, "schmidtball", conservatism... Jesus wept.

bilston

Flipper22 wrote: »

Did we? Don't remember that game all too well tbh, I do remember him scoring off a nice inside ball from Jonny.

Well for a start he side stepped past four defenders from Sexton's inside pass!

Gilroy can unlock defences at Pro 12 and European level, he has shown he can do it at test level but like anyone needs a run of games.

irishbucsfan

Flipper22 wrote: »

Did we? Don't remember that game all too well tbh, I do remember him scoring off a nice inside ball from Jonny.

EDIT: Not actually a very good video, I didn't watch the whole thing and assumed it showed all of his contributions, no such luck. He created another one in that game if I remember correctly