Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread V

Todd Toddington III

Maybe include some performance and appearance bonuses in contracts offered by a different province, paid for by the irfu rather than the team, to encourage a player to move. Not offering contracts to players who don't really want to go is risky imo

irishbucsfan

Sean O'Brien isn't on a central contract.

But that's just an example of how the system has changed drastically in recent years. There's plenty of reasons any player would prefer a provincial deal, there's plenty of reasons a player would prefer a central deal.

awec

WarZ wrote: »

I don't think any of our back 3 should be on central contracts and certainly not one who is lucky to make the bench of the international side. Central contracts should be used for keeping the likes of Jonathan Sexton and Sean O'Brien in Ireland

It makes little difference, the money mostly comes out of the same pot and the IRFU will have a veto over any provincial salary anyway.

As far as I understand it the only difference between a provincial contract and an Ireland contract now is around bonus payments for Ireland appearances (central deals don't get them as it's taken into account with salary).

irishbucsfan

awec wrote: »

It makes little difference, the money mostly comes out of the same pot and the IRFU will have a veto over any provincial salary anyway.

As far as I understand it the only difference between a provincial contract and an Ireland contract now is around bonus payments for Ireland appearances (central deals don't get them as it's taken into account with salary).

There's other factors at play. The central contract is a lot less flexible for negotiation on certain things, such as with SOB who didn't want to release his image rights to the IRFU.

awec

irishbucsfan wrote: »

There's other factors at play. The central contract is a lot less flexible for negotiation on certain things, such as with SOB who didn't want to release his image rights to the IRFU.

Yea there are other minor things, but being on a central deal seems to have nothing to do with how important you are.

Getting a central deal or not isn't going to make or break any contract negotiations.

WarZ

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Sean O'Brien isn't on a central contract.

But that's just an example of how the system has changed drastically in recent years. There's plenty of reasons any player would prefer a provincial deal, there's plenty of reasons a player would prefer a central deal.

I was using those two players for a purpose.

Sexton left because of the IRFU negotiations and Leinster being blocked from offering him themselves what he was asking for.

Sean O'Brien turned down an IRFU contract.

Instead of being used to keep our truly world class players in the country they are now little more than a hand-out to provinces who are struggling financially.

irishbucsfan

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Sean O'Brien isn't on a central contract.

But that's just an example of how the system has changed drastically in recent years. There's plenty of reasons any player would prefer a provincial deal, there's plenty of reasons a player would prefer a central deal.

SOB's contract was announced by the IRFU with banal quotes from Philip Browne, doesn't seem like a provincial contract to me.

Edit, actually I think the line has been blurred quite a bit anyway, I'm not sure there are really central contracts anymore. Everyone is contracted to the IRFU.

awec

WarZ wrote: »

Instead of being used to keep our truly world class players in the country they are now little more than a hand-out to provinces who are struggling financially.

They make little difference.

I don't think Leinster are struggling financially either.

irishbucsfan

awec wrote: »

Yea there are other minor things, but being on a central deal seems to have nothing to do with how important you are.

Getting a central deal or not isn't going to make or break any contract negotiations.

Ah yeah I agree with that, the players and the union will reach a deal whether or not it's via an individual branch or via big Tom.

errlloyd

Forum needs a referenced stocky explaining what a central contract is. We have this debate every year. The worry is the Welsh union will see it and sort out there own clubs

Quint2010

Annabella1 wrote: »

See O'Connell is out for up to 8 months-horrible injury
personally doubt he will ever make it to France

So who will be paying his wages during that time? If its Toulon you can be damn sure they will want to see him in a Toulon jersey at some stage

WarZ

Quint2010 wrote: »

So who will be paying his wages during that time? If its Toulon you can be damn sure they will want to see him in a Toulon jersey at some stage

The season will be finished by the time he has recovered. Disastrous for them.

Quint2010

Quint2010 wrote: »

So who will be paying his wages during that time? If its Toulon you can be damn sure they will want to see him in a Toulon jersey at some stage

He's signed for two years so they'll have him next season I guess.

I would imagine some insurance company will be paying his wage.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

WarZ wrote: »

The season will be finished by the time he has recovered. Disastrous for them.

Depends on what the deal was, I suppose. If his joining them was subject to being fit post World Cup then they might not be out of pocket.

jm08

irishbucsfan wrote: »

There's other factors at play. The central contract is a lot less flexible for negotiation on certain things, such as with SOB who didn't want to release his image rights to the IRFU.

SOB is on a central contract now. IRFU announce the central contracts and they usually have a quote from Philip Browne (now Nucifora) and the CEO of the Provincial side.

Here is SOB's announcement from IRFU (Browne & Dawson)
http://www.irishrugby.ie/news/29183.php#.VjfXMKTWFB8


Here is Iain Henderson's Ulster contract announcement (just Bryn Cunningham)
http://www.irishrugby.ie/news/33861.php#.VjfYd6TWFB8

dub_skav

irishbucsfan wrote: »

There's other factors at play. The central contract is a lot less flexible for negotiation on certain things, such as with SOB who didn't want to release his image rights to the IRFU.

Complicated business these days. It is important that a player has control over their image rights, they wouldn't want to be involved in something tacky without their agreement.

dub_skav

dub_skav wrote: »

Complicated business these days. It is important that a player has control over their image rights, they wouldn't want to be involved in something tacky without their agreement.

Supermac's are a surprisingly profitable outlet (opened first store in the US this year) so I'd say Seanie pocketed a nice chunk of change for that. It's not about the quality for players, it's about the quantity in their wallet which is why they are best holding onto their image rights.

dub_skav

Deleted User wrote: »

Supermac's are a surprisingly profitable outlet (opened first store in the US this year) so I'd say Seanie pocketed a nice chunk of change for that. It's not about the quality for players, it's about the quantity in their wallet which is why they are best holding onto their image rights.

Absolutely, I was really being a bit tongue in cheek.
It is interesting though to consider that a player might have a very different view to how they want their image used than the IRFU. So you can understand some of the protracted contract negotiations, particularly with the higher profile players who would have a stronger position.

b.gud

dub_skav wrote: »

Absolutely, I was really being a bit tongue in cheek.
It is interesting though to consider that a player might have a very different view to how they want their image used than the IRFU. So you can understand some of the protracted contract negotiations, particularly with the higher profile players who would have a stronger position.

Ya being a sporting organisation the IRFU would probably prefer their players to promote healthy foods, oh wait....

ulster_Beef

b.gud wrote: »

Ya being a sporting organ the IRFU would probably prefer their players to promote healthy foods, oh wait....

While we are playing this game

dub_skav

Nothing to do with healthy eating, but very relevant for image rights.

b.gud

All those cable crunches and planks subman has been doing are really paying off. Subway dude on the other hand really needs to get his act together

case885

Mike Ross will be making an appearance on ear to the ground now on RTE

The Parish King

Dates for the SA tour have been confirmed today, it'd be great to finally get a win down there. I've taken a few weeks off here so sorry if it's already been discussed, do people expect Schmidt to stick with a similar squad to the WC or experiment a bit more with an eye to the future?

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/international/venues-and-dates-confirmed-ireland-s-2016-south-africa-tour-1.2419719

thomond2006

The Parish King wrote: »

Dates for the SA tour have been confirmed today, it'd be great to finally get a win down there. I've taken a few weeks off here so sorry if it's already been discussed, do people expect Schmidt to stick with a similar squad to the WC or experiment a bit more with an eye to the future?

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/international/venues-and-dates-confirmed-ireland-s-2016-south-africa-tour-1.2419719

No midweek games?

part time punk

The Parish King wrote: »

Dates for the SA tour have been confirmed today, it'd be great to finally get a win down there. I've taken a few weeks off here so sorry if it's already been discussed, do people expect Schmidt to stick with a similar squad to the WC or experiment a bit more with an eye to the future?

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/international/venues-and-dates-confirmed-ireland-s-2016-south-africa-tour-1.2419719

Whoever is left standing by next June after another long season!

On a related note though I've been wondering whether a few players of our players could do with a non-injury enforced sabbatical from the game. I know they're Profesisonal players but for some could they do with a 6 month in season break e.g from the end of 6 Nations to the start of the new season. It might pay dividends in the long run.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

part time punk wrote: »

Whoever is left standing by next June after another long season!

On a related note though I've been wondering whether a few players of our players could do with a non-injury enforced sabbatical from the game. I know they're Profesisonal players but for some could they do with a 6 month in season break e.g from the end of 6 Nations to the start of the new season. It might pay dividends in the long run.

Haven't New Zealand done something like this with McCaw and maybe Carter too? It's bound to be good for the development of the team too in that someone else gets to play in their position for an extended period of time. Take someone like Heaslip, for example... he's dominated the #8 shirt for years now and I'm not sure there's a definite heir to that particular position at the moment? I'm sure there's other positions too, Sexton would be a perfect candidate, giving Madigan 2/3 months of being the main 10 at Leinster couldn't hurt.

errlloyd

Sure you can see it with Nacewa, I think he looks very sharp. Maybe they do the June tour if they want to, then don't come back till the 6N? I know a lot of them have some personal development in terms of getting married, polishing off one or two unfinished college modules (that they bona fide couldn't do with rugby commitments) etc.

Jamie Roberts is on Sabbatical right now, studying in Cambridge (hoping to play in the Varsity match).

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

errlloyd wrote: »

Jamie Roberts is on Sabbatical right now, studying in Cambridge (hoping to play in the Varsity match).

I often wonder how players manage to get medical degrees while playing professional rugby. Hallam Amos, for example, is currently studying medicine and even with the best will in the world you can't do hospital rotations while studying, training and travelling for matches.

part time punk

part time punk wrote: »

Whoever is left standing by next June after another long season!

On a related note though I've been wondering whether a few players of our players could do with a non-injury enforced sabbatical from the game. I know they're Profesisonal players but for some could they do with a 6 month in season break e.g from the end of 6 Nations to the start of the new season. It might pay dividends in the long run.

Bar injury, the body will more or less completely recover from fatigue in 2 - 3 weeks. After that you start to lose fitness and conditioning and getting it back is probably more tiring than maintaining it.

The only part of the body that will really benefit from a 6 month break is the mind.

Clearlier

Deleted User wrote: »

Bar injury, the body will more or less completely recover from fatigue in 2 - 3 weeks. After that you start to lose fitness and conditioning and getting it back is probably more tiring than maintaining it.

The only part of the body that will really benefit from a 6 month break is the mind.

Maybe I got it wrong but by sabbatical from the game I thought that they meant a sabbatical from playing which might have some merit if it were to be used with a view to adjusting fitness and doing extended prehabilitation work. Denis Leamy is an example of a player who was a bit of a physical freak before a fairly serious (knee?) injury. It could of course have been that the injury reduced his physical capacity but I never thought that he got back to the same physical level after he returned to the game and I often wondered if he wouldn't have benefited from a longer period being made available to build his fitness.

All that said I think that the fitness and medical teams are reasonably well tuned into how well the players are doing physically and I'd be surprised if they thought it would be of benefit to many players. I could never see something like this happening routinely.

WarZ

if we beat South Africa in a meaningless friendly will people go back to thinking we are world class and in the top 3 despite being humiliated on the biggest stage every time?

Winning the 6N should be minimum and a grand slam should be aim every year considering the lack of competition.

slingerz

WarZ wrote: »

if we beat South Africa in a meaningless friendly will people go back to thinking we are world class and in the top 3 despite being humiliated on the biggest stage every time?

Winning the 6N should be minimum and a grand slam should be aim every year considering the lack of competition.

Sure because England, France & Wales are complete also rans? Even Scotland are getting their house in order.

There is a faux hysteria over a perceived gap in levels however Scotland were a correct decision away from beating Australia while Ireland and Wales suffered catastrophic injuries in the tournament.

England and France were in rag order through poor management but wouldn't take them long to get up to speed again

Dravokivich

WarZ wrote: »

if we beat South Africa in a meaningless friendly will people go back to thinking we are world class and in the top 3 despite being humiliated on the biggest stage every time?

Winning the 6N should be minimum and a grand slam should be aim every year considering the lack of competition.

I thought the only friendlies were Wolfhounds / Ireland "A"? All test matches are worth ranking points. So not sure why it'll be meaningless.

irishbucsfan

Dravokivich wrote: »

I thought the only friendlies were Wolfhounds / Ireland "A"? All test matches are worth ranking points. So not sure why it'll be meaningless.

It's not meaningless to either side. It's a silly attempt at a point. Some people I assume would like to say that the only games that matter are world cup games so that they can continue to criticise the team for another 4 years as a guaranteed minimum.

former total

If our seeding for RWC 2019 depends on ranking position in November 2016, then an away win in South Africa would be massive (and a 3-0 series whitewash wouldn't be great...), so you can expect Ireland to go all out for this. We can expect a lot of guys to miss it through injury though, end of a long season etc.

Redgirl82

former total wrote: »

If our seeding for RWC 2019 depends on ranking position in November 2016, then an away win in South Africa would be massive (and a 3-0 series whitewash wouldn't be great...), so you can expect Ireland to go all out for this. We can expect a lot of guys to miss it through injury though, end of a long season etc.

I just hope Paddy Wallace brings his boots with him on holidays!!

Rightwing

WarZ wrote: »

if we beat South Africa in a meaningless friendly will people go back to thinking we are world class and in the top 3 despite being humiliated on the biggest stage every time?

Winning the 6N should be minimum and a grand slam should be aim every year considering the lack of competition.

Certainly not. Massive damage was done to the credibility of the game here.

The GS must be the minimum for England, Ireland and France after such a hyped up, disastrous world cup campaign.

CatFromHue

Winning a test series in SA would be huge for Ireland!

It won't mean we're the best in the world but it's just another step to getting there.

Rightwing

CatFromHue wrote: »

Winning a test series in SA would be huge for Ireland!

It won't mean we're the best in the world but it's just another step to getting there.

The ABs are just so far ahead of everyone else now, world class talk about players and management needs to be binned. I do agree though that a test win in SA would be great for the record books, regardless of where the Boks are at themselves.

captbarnacles

Don't agree but i probably have a different definition of world class to you. To me it means you are in contention for a place in a world 15 rather than you are a guaranteed starter.

CatFromHue

Winning a test series in SA would be Ireland's greatest rugby achievement to date.

Rightwing

CatFromHue wrote: »

Winning a test series in SA would be Ireland's greatest rugby achievement to date.

I'd put the 09 GS well ahead of it, now a test series win in NZ certainly would be, but we must remember even Japan felled the boks.

CatFromHue

Japan only did it in a once off game though, winning 2 tests down there to me is bigger than the GS.

irishbucsfan

Rightwing wrote: »

I'd put the 09 GS well ahead of it, now a test series win in NZ certainly would be, but we must remember even Japan felled the boks.

And the Boks beat New Zealand last year. One game doesn't tell the whole story, they're a very tough side to beat and could very easilly come down to us v them for a top seed spot.

Rightwing

irishbucsfan wrote: »

And the Boks beat New Zealand last year. One game doesn't tell the whole story, they're a very tough side to beat and could very easilly come down to us v them for a top seed spot.

I half agree with you, but the Argies also easily beat them away, you'd wonder how seriously some of these teams take some of these tests. I'd make an exception for the ABs, but a GS would rank above a test win over the current bok side at the moment.

WarZ

Rightwing wrote: »

I half agree with you, but the Argies also easily beat them away, you'd wonder how seriously some of these teams take some of these tests. I'd make an exception for the ABs, but a GS would rank above a test win over the current bok side at the moment.

Going to have to disagree. Currently a GS is a much easier task than beating South Africa in 2 out of 3 games in South Africa for all of the games.. England, Wales, Scotland, France, Italy are miles behind South Africa.

Rightwing

WarZ wrote: »

Going to have to disagree. Currently a GS is a much easier task than beating South Africa in 2 out of 3 games in South Africa for all of the games.. England, Wales, Scotland, France, Italy are miles behind South Africa.

Not sure they are. The Boks silverware cupboard is fairly bare of late, which tells its own story. Our '09 GS remains our greatest rugby result.

4 teams are every even at the moment which makes winning a GS right now very hard.

Yeah_Right

The simple solution is to win the GS and the series in RSA.

Rightwing

Yeah_Right wrote: »

The simple solution is to win the GS and the series in RSA.

That's all that will satisfy me at this stage!