Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread V

CMOTDibbler

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

There are more schools playing but the kids in those schools play very little rugby. Getting them into clubs where there is more games available to kids, more coaching etc. There is bottleneck and pyramid should be wider but working on the clubs is the way to do it.

I don't agree. I'm not against funding for clubs (or the non fee-paying schools) but the bottleneck isn't there.

We have two thousand plus (and that plus may be even larger) players at the point where they could join a provincial academy every year, but there are just about 100 places for them over a three year period in the academies.

Of the academy players, probably less than half of them make it through to getting a provincial contract, so in Leinster's case for example, less than 11 players will come through over the next three years.

Granted there mightn't be slots for them. But this is why every year there is always a shortage in some positions in one or more provinces. We're scratching around looking for scrum halves in at least two provinces and out halves everywhere. Props are in short supply in Ulster and Munster and Connacht have bought in theirs.

The clubs and schools could be churning out decent players who will never get a chance to play at a higher level.

shuffol

I'd like to see a better utilisation and spread of the talent that's there and a more of a focus on quality rather than quantity where NIQ's are concerned. NIQ's that are signed should be top drawer and have a positive impact on other players around them. Kirchner is an example of someone who isn't really needed and is impeding the progress of younger players who could potentially contribute to the national side down the road.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

The clubs and schools could be churning out decent players who will never get a chance to play at a higher level.

So what's the solution? Try to increase the level of the non professional senior clubs? Players who don't get the spot in the academies can still be playing week in week out at a higher level? Or increase the size of the provincial academies? Or both?

CMOTDibbler

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

So what's the solution? Try to increase the level of the non professional senior clubs? Players who don't get the spot in the academies can still be playing week in week out at a higher level? Or increase the size of the provincial academies? Or both?

Increase the size of the academies first. They could conceivably be twice or three times their current size to properly maintain the senior sides. It's somewhat ludicrous that they barely make up a matchday squad each as it stands.

The next thing to do would be to have meaningful competition for them to play in. As it stands, they would be playing for AIL clubs and training with the academy but it would be more realistic to have them make up an AIL side in their own right or play extended interpros instead.

Having more places would encourage more players to remain with their clubs or even remain playing rugby after school rather than the sizeable drift that occurs at present. It would force academies to go farther afield recruiting players and widening the exposure for young players.

Yes there will be oversupply at the thin end of the pyramid, but that's what's supposed to happen.

Neil3030

I understand that we have a system here where the provinces exist to service the national side, and that's fine. But (from the Leinster perspective, as an example) I look at lads like McFadden, Dave Kearney, etc., and I wonder what they bring the national setup? Of course, they are honest lads who will put in a shift, etc, but they will not get any better, and they don't raise the game of the younger lads around them.

A provincial setup servicing the national side does not require that we keep as many Irish players as possible on this island. I think it should involve careful injection of foreign talent to rise the tide for the players who still have the scope to improve; the Ringroses, JVdFs, Molonys of this world. But the problem is that too much money is spent on "honest lads" who will "put in a shift" etc.

We need a system where we hold onto the elite Irish players, the players with scope to develop and possibly become elite, and then plug the gaps accordingly with foreign recruits. Of course it would be great if an Irish province could win the European Cup with all homegrown players but that just isn't going to cut it any more. We are actually stunting the relative development of our own talent when we don't give them the best possible platform to learn their craft.

Neil3030

Neil3030 wrote: »

I understand that we have a system here where the provinces exist to service the national side, and that's fine. But (from the Leinster perspective, as an example) I look at lads like McFadden, Dave Kearney, etc., and I wonder what they bring the national setup? Of course, they are honest lads who will put in a shift, etc, but they will not get any better, and they don't raise the game of the younger lads around them.

A provincial setup servicing the national side does not require that we keep as many Irish players as possible on this island. I think it should involve careful injection of foreign talent to rise the tide for the players who still have the scope to improve; the Ringroses, JVdFs, Molonys of this world. But the problem is that too much money is spent on "honest lads" who will "put in a shift" etc.

We need a system where we hold onto the elite Irish players, the players with scope to develop and possibly become elite, and then plug the gaps accordingly with foreign recruits. Of course it would be great if an Irish province could win the European Cup with all homegrown players but that just isn't going to cut it any more. We are actually stunting the relative development of our own talent when we don't give them the best possible platform to learn their craft.

That is literally the system that we have now. Exactly it.

former total

[Deleted User] wrote: »

That is literally the system that we have now. Exactly it.

His point is that we have lots of guys who are "none of the above" - never going to be international standard, not young enough to develop, and not foreign.

Look at the weekend just gone, I'll take Ulster as an example. Diack, Wilson, P Marshall, Humphreys, Lutton. Why is it better to have people like that keeping youngsters out than to have high quality foreigners? But the system protects them because they're warm bodies who are Irish eligible.

molloyjh

former total wrote: »

His point is that we have lots of guys who are "none of the above" - never going to be international standard, not young, and not foreign.

Look at the weekend just gone, I'll take Ulster as an example. Diack, Wilson, P Marshall, Humphreys, Lutton. Why is it better to have people like that keeping youngsters out than to have high quality foreigners? But the system protects them because they're warm bodies who are Irish eligible.

Ah now that's a bit much. If a young player deserves to make the step up he should be able to regardless of the IRFU, NIQs, IQs or whatever. If he doesn't then there is either an issue with the young player in question or with the coaching staff making the selections. The problem there isn't with "the system".

Zzippy

former total wrote: »

His point is that we have lots of guys who are "none of the above" - never going to be international standard, not young enough to develop, and not foreign.

Look at the weekend just gone, I'll take Ulster as an example. Diack, Wilson, P Marshall, Humphreys, Lutton. Why is it better to have people like that keeping youngsters out than to have high quality foreigners? But the system protects them because they're warm bodies who are Irish eligible.

Ok, what talented young players are these warm bodies keeping out of the squad? And if they are, is it because they're just not good enough to displace those warm bodies?

former total

Zzippy wrote: »

Ok, what talented young players are these warm bodies keeping out of the squad? And if they are, is it because they're just not good enough to displace those warm bodies?

molloyjh wrote: »

Ah now that's a bit much. If a young player deserves to make the step up he should be able to regardless of the IRFU, NIQs, IQs or whatever. If he doesn't then there is either an issue with the young player in question or with the coaching staff making the selections. The problem there isn't with "the system".

Yes. EXACTLY. If the young players are good enough, they'll displace them. We're all agreed on that.

Except it if the warm body is foreign.

Take Paul Marshall. We can all agree he's pretty rubbish? Never going to make the national team? Ulster could sign about 20 scrum halves from abroad who are better but they can't. Who is that helping? Not the national side, certainly not Ulster. Paul Marshall is the only winner.

former total

former total wrote: »

Yes. EXACTLY. If the young players are good enough, they'll displace them. We're all agreed on that.

Except it if the warm body is foreign.

Take Paul Marshall. We can all agree he's pretty rubbish? Never going to make the national team? Ulster could sign about 20 scrum halves from abroad who are better but they can't.Who is that helping? Not the national side, certainly not Ulster. Paul Marshall is the only winner.

Look further ahead up the road.

When Ulster know that this is the situation, know that this is the rule, what does that incentivise them to do?

I'll answer it myself, develop or find an Irish player that's good enough.

former total

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Look further ahead up the road.

When Ulster know that this is the situation, know that this is the rule, what does that incentivise them to do?

Look back down the road. How has that incentive panned out?

irishbucsfan

former total wrote: »

Look back down the road. How has that incentive panned out?

I would say it's worked pretty well at Leinster, our academy is excellent and in recent years we've been regularly below the NIQ limit whereas we used to be reliant on them far more.

Up in Ulster the academy isnt nearly as efficient, imo, but i think that's down to politics and if they sort that they'll also be able to produce players more regularly. If they don't sort it then they will suffer, and there won't be as many foreign players available to cover up that shortcoming. I'm not sure if Munster are inefficient or just dont have the same throughput, I suspect more of the latter.

Of all the things I'm critical of the IRFU for, their rules regarding NIQ players are not among them.

Fez101

Isn't part of the problem that the standard of the AIL isn't high enough to develop the academy players to a standard where they challenge for a provincial spot. I'm not sure more A team inter-pros would be enough, it's a difficult problem to solve. Good debate by the way.

The Lost Sheep

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

As I said, the Schools Cup is a higher standard of competition than you'd get playing against a few local clubs a couple of times a year. The ideal situation would be getting more schools playing rugby at that standard. As was also pointed out some schools may be reluctant to get involved with rugby at all so the immediate priority should be developing the game at club level which could then potentially have a knock on effect in the schools, or at least some schools.

The School's Cup is important because it's a very easy way for talent scouts to see kids playing. I may be wrong but I find it hard to imagine anyone from an AIL club, never mind Ulster themselves, going all the way to Ramelton to see Letterkenny U16's play Ramelton on a Sunday morning on the off chance there might be some talent there when they can just spend a few weeks watching School's Cup in the Spring. There's a few posts in the Ulster thread recently about people from the provincial set up and their attitude towards scouting young players who aren't already at established clubs/schools.

But getting schools to standard of schools cups is harder than improving the clubs and improving standards within clubs especially if we are talking about areas where there are clubs already established and where schools rugby doesn't exist.
Just because the schools is a higher standard to an extent doesn't mean you put all resources into schools cups. It is much easier to develop the clubs system especially in non traditional areas than schools where in most cases schools will be GAA schools etc.
The clubs age grade system is also and should be viewed more by the development staff/academy staff(I don't use word scouts as don't see "scouts" in operation)
I would work the other way. There is clubs in many areas already. They have a base of coaches/players already in the game. Use the schools to get kids playing in the clubs. Like whats done everywhere. My home club has a development officer. He goes to all the primary schools and secondary schools in area and especially with some schools. Rugby will never ever be the main sport and that's the case in most schools in the country. Use the schools to hook them into the sport and then use the clubs to really hone the talents of those who want to play.

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Increase the size of the academies first. They could conceivably be twice or three times their current size to properly maintain the senior sides. It's somewhat ludicrous that they barely make up a matchday squad each as it stands.

The next thing to do would be to have meaningful competition for them to play in. As it stands, they would be playing for AIL clubs and training with the academy but it would be more realistic to have them make up an AIL side in their own right or play extended interpros instead.

Having more places would encourage more players to remain with their clubs or even remain playing rugby after school rather than the sizeable drift that occurs at present. It would force academies to go farther afield recruiting players and widening the exposure for young players.

Yes there will be oversupply at the thin end of the pyramid, but that's what's supposed to happen.

The academies couldn't be 2/3 times larger. Who would fund that and where do you find the funding for all the extra coaches etc needed to do that. There is a pyramid system in place with academy, sub academy being larger than that and then those in age grade teams etc below that again.
I don't see academy teams playing in their own right in AIL ever happening or provinces wanting that especially now with the British and Irish Cup and A interpros in place where academy teams/development teams primarily made up of Academy players can play 10-12+ games a season and the provinces can always find more games.
The provinces don't have bigger academies now as there isn't the need/talent for them to be so much bigger. Having bigger academies wouldn't halt the large drop off in people playing the sport in the 18-22 age group.

Neil3030

Deleted User wrote: »

That is literally the system that we have now. Exactly it.

No it isn't. It's part of the system, but you've left out the glut of IQ players who just make up the numbers - who are not of international standard and who will never progress beyond their present level.

I propose we cut back on employing "decent" locals who have reached a plateau (let them earn more money abroad), and then focus on
(a) keeping our elite talent here
(b) keeping promising youngsters with clear potential to improve (JJ, Ringrose)
(c) a reduced number of better calibre imports to rise the floor for everyone (Rocky, Thorn etc)

Take Leinster as an example, I would happily jettison the likes of Dave Kearney, Fergus McFadden, Darragh Fanning, Collie O'Shea, Isaac Boss, Dominic Ryan, Tom Denton, Royce Burke-Flynn, Michael Bent and Aaron Dundon, if it meant bringing in 3 - 4 quality players. Yes, you're then a bit light in the case of an injury crisis, but that's where you bring in the academy lads for experience.

salmocab

Do the the likes of Wales not have academies? Maybe we need to get more game time for the academy players as units instead of playing AIL and a bit of A along with playing for provincial 20s teams.

Neil3030

Neil3030 wrote: »

No it isn't. It's part of the system, but you've left out the glut of IQ players who just make up the numbers - who are not of international standard and who will never progress beyond their present level.

I propose we cut back on employing "decent" locals who have reached a plateau (let them earn more money abroad), and then focus on
(a) keeping our elite talent here
(b) keeping promising youngsters with clear potential to improve (JJ, Ringrose)
(c) a reduced number of better calibre imports to rise the floor for everyone (Rocky, Thorn etc)

Take Leinster as an example, I would happily jettison the likes of Dave Kearney, Fergus McFadden, Darragh Fanning, Collie O'Shea, Isaac Boss, Dominic Ryan, Tom Denton, Royce Burke-Flynn, Michael Bent and Aaron Dundon, if it meant bringing in 3 - 4 quality players. Yes, you're then a bit light in the case of an injury crisis, but that's where you bring in the academy lads for experience.

Who would you replace these players with? Names please.

Neil3030

Deleted User wrote: »

Who would you replace these players with? Names please.

How much would you say those players earn, as a group? Ballpark.

Neil3030

Neil3030 wrote: »

How much would you say those players earn, as a group? Ballpark.

John Muldoon gave the figure of about 100k for non-International pro12 players, and 3x/4x that for internationals in a documentary from 4/5 seasons ago. Maybe stick 10/20% on to that figure now I'd guess?

@ 8mins

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDgKHySObFs

former total

Neil3030 wrote: »

No it isn't. It's part of the system, but you've left out the glut of IQ players who just make up the numbers - who are not of international standard and who will never progress beyond their present level.

I propose we cut back on employing "decent" locals who have reached a plateau (let them earn more money abroad), and then focus on
(a) keeping our elite talent here
(b) keeping promising youngsters with clear potential to improve (JJ, Ringrose)
(c) a reduced number of better calibre imports to rise the floor for everyone (Rocky, Thorn etc)

Take Leinster as an example, I would happily jettison the likes of Dave Kearney, Fergus McFadden, Darragh Fanning, Collie O'Shea, Isaac Boss, Dominic Ryan, Tom Denton, Royce Burke-Flynn, Michael Bent and Aaron Dundon, if it meant bringing in 3 - 4 quality players. Yes, you're then a bit light in the case of an injury crisis, but that's where you bring in the academy lads for experience.

I agree with the overall principle but that's extremely harsh on Dave K and McFadden!

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

But getting schools to standard of schools cups is harder than improving the clubs and improving standards within clubs especially if we are talking about areas where there are clubs already established and where schools rugby doesn't exist.
Just because the schools is a higher standard to an extent doesn't mean you put all resources into schools cups. It is much easier to develop the clubs system especially in non traditional areas than schools where in most cases schools will be GAA schools etc.
The clubs age grade system is also and should be viewed more by the development staff/academy staff(I don't use word scouts as don't see "scouts" in operation)
I would work the other way. There is clubs in many areas already. They have a base of coaches/players already in the game. Use the schools to get kids playing in the clubs. Like whats done everywhere. My home club has a development officer. He goes to all the primary schools and secondary schools in area and especially with some schools. Rugby will never ever be the main sport and that's the case in most schools in the country. Use the schools to hook them into the sport and then use the clubs to really hone the talents of those who want to play.

I didn't say they should focus solely on the schools. I suggested it and another poster outlined the problems with that. In the post you're responding to there I said the ideal situation, in my opinion, would be to have a few more schools, outside the traditional ones playing rugby at Schools Cup level. As that's obviously easier said than done the immediate focus should be on developing the clubs. If you've got a bunch of kids already playing rugby at a club it makes it easier to introduce it to schools where it's not an established sport.

The two can go hand in hand but in this particular situation focusing on the clubs is the first step. Trying to establish enough clubs at a high enough level in counties not known for rugby to allow older kids, 15, 16 upwards, to get regular matches at a high level is a big ask. Getting one school from each of the 3 counties, using Ulster as the example, up to School's Cup level isn't as hard a task, in my opinion.

The Lost Sheep

Neil3030 wrote: »

No it isn't. It's part of the system, but you've left out the glut of IQ players who just make up the numbers - who are not of international standard and who will never progress beyond their present level.

I propose we cut back on employing "decent" locals who have reached a plateau (let them earn more money abroad), and then focus on
(a) keeping our elite talent here
(b) keeping promising youngsters with clear potential to improve (JJ, Ringrose)
(c) a reduced number of better calibre imports to rise the floor for everyone (Rocky, Thorn etc)

Take Leinster as an example, I would happily jettison the likes of Dave Kearney, Fergus McFadden, Darragh Fanning, Collie O'Shea, Isaac Boss, Dominic Ryan, Tom Denton, Royce Burke-Flynn, Michael Bent and Aaron Dundon, if it meant bringing in 3 - 4 quality players. Yes, you're then a bit light in the case of an injury crisis, but that's where you bring in the academy lads for experience.

You need those locals in the squad and what kinds of numbers do you want employed that's different from know. Cutting 10-12 to add 3-4 wont happen and shouldn't happen. Academy players already get in games if good enough/ready.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

I didn't say they should focus solely on the schools. I suggested it and another poster outlined the problems with that. In the post you're responding to there I said the ideal situation, in my opinion, would be to have a few more schools, outside the traditional ones playing rugby at Schools Cup level. As that's obviously easier said than done the immediate focus should be on developing the clubs. If you've got a bunch of kids already playing rugby at a club it makes it easier to introduce it to schools where it's not an established sport.

The two can go hand in hand but in this particular situation focusing on the clubs is the first step. Trying to establish enough clubs at a high enough level in counties not known for rugby to allow older kids, 15, 16 upwards, to get regular matches at a high level is a big ask. Getting one school from each of the 3 counties, using Ulster as the example, up to School's Cup level isn't as hard a task, in my opinion.

Again getting schools up to a properly competitive level is very difficult when we're talking of free schools versus fee paying etc and lack of history and getting past pupils/parents/coaches involved. funding etc. I don't see any point in focusing too much on schools at all. Like try Tipperary. If you got a school up to the A grade and competing year in year out in schools cup you hamper the local clubs. Same in Kerry/Waterford/parts of Cork.
Two cant really go hand in hand. Limerick is the perfect example of how clubs and schools is an endless struggle and a mess.

CMOTDibbler

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

The academies couldn't be 2/3 times larger. Who would fund that and where do you find the funding for all the extra coaches etc needed to do that. There is a pyramid system in place with academy, sub academy being larger than that and then those in age grade teams etc below that again.

The discussion started with someone suggesting that €5,000,000 be invested in getting in NIQ players for all the provinces. I'm suggesting that if there was that amount of money to spend it would be better invested in the academies. The sub-academies are a bit of a joke tbh. It's like a holding pattern for promising players for whom there isn't room in the academy proper.

The pyramid fails at academy level. It's just not big enough. We know it's not big enough because we're constantly bemoaning the lack of players coming through in many positions in the provinces.

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

I don't see academy teams playing in their own right in AIL ever happening or provinces wanting that especially now with the British and Irish Cup and A interpros in place where academy teams/development teams primarily made up of Academy players can play 10-12+ games a season and the provinces can always find more games.
The provinces don't have bigger academies now as there isn't the need/talent for them to be so much bigger. Having bigger academies wouldn't halt the large drop off in people playing the sport in the 18-22 age group.

Have a look at the academy pages on the provincial websites. Many of the players have only three or four games at any level. We don't know if it will help the drop off of players but it has to have some benefit.

As I said at the start of this discussion, there's a clear problem in homegrown player production, but getting more NIQ players isn't the answer. There's an obvious choke point at academy level. Take Leinster for example. Everyone accepts that Leinster has the largest player pool in the country, yet the current academy has only 22 in it. If that were increased to 50, do you think Leinster would have trouble filling it?

b.gud

Dr Éanna Falvey is stepping down as team doctor for Ireland but will be staying with the IRFU in an advisory role

b.gud

Just an FYI Neil those pics are not public on Dropbox so I don't think anyone here can see them

Neil3030

Thanks for the heads up. I shared all the images, did that fix it?

b.gud

Neil3030 wrote: »

Thanks for the heads up. I shared all the images, did that fix it?

Nope sorry still restricted, even tried logging into Dropbox to view them directly and still get a 403 error

Neil3030

Neil3030 wrote: »

Thanks for the heads up. I shared all the images, did that fix it?

No.. but now I can see all the other pictures in your dropbox, Mr. Rusty Trombone!

Neil3030

Deleted User wrote: »

No.. but now I can see all the other pictures in your dropbox, Mr. Rusty Trombone!

Oh good... you...eh.... saw those pictures from that.... ehhh... advanced CPR class I took.... that could save someone's life!

Tarf1234

Neil3030 wrote: »

OK nice one. So if may entreat the following stipulations:

(a) Use the upper limit of your inflationary adjustment (120k)
(b) Assume Dave Kearney is on international money (~250k)
(c) Add Zane Kirchner to the list of guys I'd cut (350k)

So you have my list of 11 players, 10 on 120k + DK on 250k + ZK on 350k = 1.8m.

For this, I would expect to pick up a decent subgroup (certainly 4 or 5, possibly as much as 8) of the following players:


Those figures are miles out... At least 6 of those players would be half of 120K if not even lower

Plus the idea of removing 11 players to replace with 4-5 is incredibly short sighted. Do we not already complain about squad sizes when compared to Eng and Fra? Absolute nonsense point start to finish.

Neil3030

Tarf1234 wrote: »

Those figures are miles out... At least 6 of those players would be half of 120K if not even lower

Plus the idea of removing 11 players to replace with 4-5 is incredibly short sighted. Do we not already complain about squad sizes when compared to Eng and Fra? Absolute nonsense point start to finish.

Even if that were true, you'd be talking 1.4m instead of 1.8m, still enough to recruit quite a decent group.

And at times when Leinster are depleted with internationals, I'd much rather see promising academy players getting gametime alongside the likes of Todd, Ioane and Ngatai, than see a stopgap team comprised of the likes of Fanning, Dundon, Denton etc.

Yeah_Right

Neil3030 wrote: »

All of the above bar Todd are uncapped and most of them fall in the 20-25 year age bracket. Their talent would dwarf anything possessed by the names I previously listed, helping both our elite Irish players and our developing lads. The possible exception here would be Kirchner, who I do think is class, but he just hasn't done it for me on enough of a consistent basis to justify the wages spent on him.

If I could really zone in on one, I'd get Akira Loane - definitely an all black in the making. Big money offer might tempt him and we'd be set with a world class player for 10 years.

Nice talent spotting there. Some class players who will be All Blacks in the next few years.

However, Moala played for the ABs vs Samoa this year so he couldn't switch allegiance. Also a few of them have played 7s for NZ and some have played for the Maoris. Do the Maoris tie a player to NZ? I know they didn't used to (Ricky Flutey) but I think they do now.

The Lost Sheep

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

The discussion started with someone suggesting that €5,000,000 be invested in getting in NIQ players for all the provinces. I'm suggesting that if there was that amount of money to spend it would be better invested in the academies. The sub-academies are a bit of a joke tbh. It's like a holding pattern for promising players for whom there isn't room in the academy proper.

The pyramid fails at academy level. It's just not big enough. We know it's not big enough because we're constantly bemoaning the lack of players coming through in many positions in the provinces.

Have a look at the academy pages on the provincial websites. Many of the players have only three or four games at any level. We don't know if it will help the drop off of players but it has to have some benefit.

As I said at the start of this discussion, there's a clear problem in homegrown player production, but getting more NIQ players isn't the answer. There's an obvious choke point at academy level. Take Leinster for example. Everyone accepts that Leinster has the largest player pool in the country, yet the current academy has only 22 in it. If that were increased to 50, do you think Leinster would have trouble filling it?

Many of the academy stats are not updated too regularly and most players do have more than 3/4 games at A level and beyond that level. Leinster and the provinces would have increased the sizes of their academies if they thought it was worthwhile. More than doubling the size of academies is nonsensical. The pyramid doesn't fail at academy level if runs into bigger problems below that with the numbers that drop out of the sport at 18-21 when they finish age grade and don't convert to adult rugby

Neil3030

OK so, back on dry land, so I can upload these images directly to boards:

Neil3030

Neil3030

Neil3030

case885

Could you imagine if they all moved here? Swiwi would declare war on Irish rugby.

Neil3030

Now that I have my images properly posted above, I just want to restate the aim here is to clear 1.8m (or 1.4m using another user's estimation) off the books, by cutting Zane Kirchner, Dave Kearney, Fergus McFadden, Darragh Fanning, Collie O'Shea, Isaac Boss, Dominic Ryan, Tom Denton, Royce Burke-Flynn, Michael Bent and Aaron Dundon.

I would then expect to pick up a decent subgroup (certainly 4 or 5, possibly as much as 8) of the above players.

All of the above bar Todd and Moala are uncapped and most of them fall in the 20-25 year age bracket. Their talent would dwarf anything possessed by the cut players, helping both our elite Irish players and our developing lads. The possible exception here would be Kirchner, who I do think is class, but he just hasn't done it for me on enough of a consistent basis to justify the wages spent on him.

If I could really zone in on one, I'd get Akira Loane - definitely an all black in the making. Big money offer might tempt him and we'd be set with a world class player for 10 years.

Neil3030

case885 wrote: »

Could you imagine if they all moved here? Swiwi would declare war on Irish rugby.

But the best thing is, there's about 10 bazillion lads down there waiting to take their place!

mfceiling

Love the way that one of the lads is 5ft 12"....6ft? No, definitely 5ft 12"...

Yeah_Right

Neil3030 wrote: »

Now that I have my images properly posted above, I just want to restate the aim here is to clear 1.8m (or 1.4m using another user's estimation) off the books, by cutting Zane Kirchner, Dave Kearney, Fergus McFadden, Darragh Fanning, Collie O'Shea, Isaac Boss, Dominic Ryan, Tom Denton, Royce Burke-Flynn, Michael Bent and Aaron Dundon.

I would then expect to pick up a decent subgroup (certainly 4 or 5, possibly as much as 8) of the above players.

All of the above bar Todd and Moala are uncapped and most of them fall in the 20-25 year age bracket. Their talent would dwarf anything possessed by the cut players, helping both our elite Irish players and our developing lads. The possible exception here would be Kirchner, who I do think is class, but he just hasn't done it for me on enough of a consistent basis to justify the wages spent on him.

If I could really zone in on one, I'd get Akira Loane - definitely an all black in the making. Big money offer might tempt him and we'd be set with a world class player for 10 years.

Like I said earlier, 7s and Maoris would rule some of them out of becoming IQ.


And another thing....

OI!! **** OFF AND STOP POACHING OUR PLAYERS!!

Neil3030

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Like I said earlier, 7s and Maoris would rule some of them out of becoming IQ.


And another thing....

OI!! **** OFF AND STOP POACHING OUR PLAYERS!!

Do 7s and Maori caps really bind you to the senior NZ team?

The Lost Sheep

Neil3030 wrote: »

Do 7s and Maori caps really bind you to the senior NZ team?

7s does but Maori wouldn't be able to as it isn't a Nationally representative side

former total

Neil3030 wrote: »

Do 7s and Maori caps really bind you to the senior NZ team?

7s yes, Maori no.

Neil3030

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

7s does but Maori wouldn't be able to as it isn't a Nationally representative side

Know this, I did not....

Neil3030

Revised shopping list, screened for 7s caps:

Jordan Taufua
Jason Emery
Elliot Dixon
Callum Gibbins
Shane Christie
Peter Samu
Marty Banks
Robbie Fruean
Kieron Fonotia
Vaea Fifita
Tevita Li
Ihaia West
Richard Buckman
Blade Thomson
Otere Black

irishbucsfan

Ihaia West please. In the hopes he has the same hairstyle as Teribo West.

RoundBox11

So if you get rid of guys like Dom Ryan, Paul Marshall, Denton etc and replace them with Kiwis who are good enough to make it into the 23, what happens when guys like Van der Flier, Leavy, Ross Byrne etc come through and cant get game time? Do you say "hey your not needed anymore" and jettison them back to NZ? Or do you let these young Irish guys go off to the Premiership or France?

Im all for getting in good NIQs but having IQ squad players is vital.

If we have a rake of injuries in the Irish squad, what do we do if guys like Diack are gone and we have a six nations game in 6 days?