Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread V

Yeah_Right

Neil3030 wrote: »

Revised shopping list, screened for 7s caps:

Jordan Taufua
Jason Emery
Elliot Dixon
Callum Gibbins
Shane Christie
Peter Samu
Marty Banks
Robbie Fruean
Kieron Fonotia
Vaea Fifita
Tevita Li
Ihaia West
Richard Buckman
Blade Thomson
Otere Black

I stand corrected about the Maori team. If any province could sign any of these guys on a long term contract to possibly become IQ then it would be a major coup.

But like I said, hell no! Hands off!!!

The Lost Sheep

Neil3030 wrote: »

Now that I have my images properly posted above, I just want to restate the aim here is to clear 1.8m (or 1.4m using another user's estimation) off the books, by cutting Zane Kirchner, Dave Kearney, Fergus McFadden, Darragh Fanning, Collie O'Shea, Isaac Boss, Dominic Ryan, Tom Denton, Royce Burke-Flynn, Michael Bent and Aaron Dundon.

I would then expect to pick up a decent subgroup (certainly 4 or 5, possibly as much as 8) of the above players.

All of the above bar Todd and Moala are uncapped and most of them fall in the 20-25 year age bracket. Their talent would dwarf anything possessed by the cut players, helping both our elite Irish players and our developing lads. The possible exception here would be Kirchner, who I do think is class, but he just hasn't done it for me on enough of a consistent basis to justify the wages spent on him.

If I could really zone in on one, I'd get Akira Loane - definitely an all black in the making. Big money offer might tempt him and we'd be set with a world class player for 10 years.

That doesn't aid the provinces as those guys are only short term and we wouldn't be able to replace them with similar guys directly and to sign them you would lose significant numbers in player depth and all of that depth is IQ.

RoundBox11 wrote: »

So if you get rid of guys like Dom Ryan, Paul Marshall, Denton etc and replace them with Kiwis who are good enough to make it into the 23, what happens when guys like Van der Flier, Leavy, Ross Byrne etc come through and cant get game time? Do you say "hey your not needed anymore" and jettison them back to NZ? Or do you let these young Irish guys go off to the Premiership or France?

Im all for getting in good NIQs but having IQ squad players is vital.

If we have a rake of injuries in the Irish squad, what do we do if guys like Diack are gone and we have a six nations game in 6 days?

+1

Neil3030

RoundBox11 wrote: »

So if you get rid of guys like Dom Ryan, Paul Marshall, Denton etc and replace them with Kiwis who are good enough to make it into the 23, what happens when guys like Van der Flier, Leavy, Ross Byrne etc come through and cant get game time? Do you say "hey your not needed anymore" and jettison them back to NZ? Or do you let these young Irish guys go off to the Premiership or France?

Under the general plan that prioritises the national side, if the young lads get better than the imports, then we need less imports. If the young lads don't, then the hope is that the imports (or some of them) naturalise and represent the national side.

Im all for getting in good NIQs but having IQ squad players is vital.

If we have a rake of injuries in the Irish squad, what do we do if guys like Diack are gone and we have a six nations game in 6 days?

Why is the part in bold vital? What are Paul Marshall, Dom Ryan, Robbie Diack etc doing for Irish rugby, except offering a smash-glass-in-case-of-the-mother-of-all-emergencies option for the national side, that they could just as capably do playing for La Rochelle or Worcester?

The Lost Sheep

Neil3030 wrote: »

Under the general plan that prioritises the national side, if the young lads get better than the imports, then we need less imports. If the young lads don't, then the hope is that the imports (or some of them) naturalise and represent the national side.

Replacing IQs with kiwis doesn't help us so much. If they were top of the range NIQs yes but not all of these guys. Never would happen or should happen. They block valuable game time for IQs

Why is the part in bold vital? What are Paul Marshall, Dom Ryan, Robbie Diack etc doing for Irish rugby, except offering a smash-glass-in-case-of-the-mother-of-all-emergencies option for the national side, that they could just as capably do playing for La Rochelle or Worcester?

Because you need some form of cover and not just have kids there.

Neil3030

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Replacing IQs with kiwis doesn't help us so much. If they were top of the range NIQs yes but not all of these guys. Never would happen or should happen. They block valuable game time for IQs

Because you need some form of cover and not just have kids there.

Why do they need to play in Ireland to provide rare emergency cover? This is the bit I don't understand.

Suppose two scenarios:

(a) Fifita (already a better player than Diack) joins Ulster and potentially naturalises, Diack goes to England.

(b) Diack stays at Ulster.

How is scenario (b) better than (a) for the national side?

molloyjh

Personally I'd prefer a slightly worse Irish side with predominantly Irish players than a slightly better Irish side packed with Kiwis. Same for Leinster. I'd actually like the teams to be more representative of, well, themselves than less.

So in short, no.

I think I've already hit my quota of naturalised players. I don't want to see bundee aki play for Ireland

CMOTDibbler

Neil3030 wrote: »

Under the general plan that prioritises the national side, if the young lads get better than the imports, then we need less imports. If the young lads don't, then the hope is that the imports (or some of them) naturalise and represent the national side.

Tough love eh?

The key phrase there is 'some of them'. That's as much guaranteed as another BOD coming along. Meanwhile the money spent to entice them here is down the drain.

Neil3030 wrote: »

Why is the part in bold vital? What are Paul Marshall, Dom Ryan, Robbie Diack etc doing for Irish rugby, except offering a smash-glass-in-case-of-the-mother-of-all-emergencies option for the national side, that they could just as capably do playing for La Rochelle or Worcester?

Not in themselves no. But then again there are about 150 professional players in the provinces that can play for Ireland. Only 40-50 will get capped. However the fact that they're there is encouragement to others to take their places. How encouraged are young Irish players going to be as they rot in the academies whilst Kiwi imports take up free slots in the provinces?

Off to Worcester with you lads. :rolleyes:

We have three quarters of the playing population of New Zealand. They can support 19 professional squads. We on the other hand are just about supporting 4. The problem isn't going to be solved by importing even more players.

Tarf1234

Neil3030 wrote: »

Why do they need to play in Ireland to provide rare emergency cover? This is the bit I don't understand.

Suppose two scenarios:

(a) Fifita (already a better player than Diack) joins Ulster and potentially naturalises, Diack goes to England.

(b) Diack stays at Ulster.

How is scenario (b) better than (a) for the national side?

How many players would move to Eng/Fra and be told sign and agree never to play internationally?

It is an outrageous suggestion.... Basically your suggestion to grow rugby in Ireland is:
A. Reduce the number of people who will get the chance to play professionally, thus reducing the numbers who will play it seriously at a young age
B. Reduce the affiliation supporters have with their players by reducing the number of locals playing for their province
C. Reduce the size of the provincial squads
D. Reduce the control and playing pool of the national side

CMOTDibbler

Of the project players we've imported in the last five years, how many have actually been capped for Ireland?

Nathan White (8)
Rodney Ah You (3)
Richardt Strauss (13)
Jared Payne (10)
Robbie Diack (2)

And these players came in during a period of dominance in Europe by the provinces.

C.J. Stander may well be capped in the 6N but he's not there yet.

bilston

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Of the project players we've imported in the last five years, how many have actually been capped for Ireland?

Nathan White (8)
Rodney Ah You (3)
Richardt Strauss (13)
Jared Payne (10)
Michael Bent (4)
Rob Herring (1)

And these players came in during a period of dominance in Europe by the provinces.

C.J. Stander may well be capped in the 6N but he's not there yet.

Rob Herring and Michael Bent aren't project players.

CMOTDibbler

bilston wrote: »

Rob Herring and Michael Bent aren't project players.

Correct and right. Post edited. Makes my point even stronger really.

former total

molloyjh wrote: »

Personally I'd prefer a slightly worse Irish side with predominantly Irish players than a slightly better Irish side packed with Kiwis. Same for Leinster. I'd actually like the teams to be more representative of, well, themselves than less.

So in short, no.

The plummeting provincial attendances seem to indicate that many people want to support a winning team.

At the moment, the NIQ policy falls between two stools. The IRFU are limiting both the quantity and quality of the players the provinces can sign.

If you want to say that we can only have 4 NIQs to ensure enough players come through for the national side, then fine, but let them sign decent players.
As it stands, they're signing mid-range players who are good enough to keep a provincial jersey but not good enough to elevate the team to the top level. So it hobbles the province but provides no benefit to the national team.

And now the chickens are coming home to roost in terms of the inability of the provinces to compete and the falling ticket sales.

It's short-sighted in the extreme.

CMOTDibbler

former total wrote: »

The plummeting provincial attendances seem to indicate that many people want to support a winning team.

Attendances have dropped across the board this year alright, but surprisingly Connacht (a winning team) are experiencing the biggest drop.

Province|Avge 15/16|Avge 14/15|% drop
Munster|10,290|13,180|22.0
Ulster|14,920|16,040|7.0
Leinster*|13,020|15,060|13.5
Connacht|3,630|5,350|32.0

*Excluding the interpro against Munster in Lansdowne Road

Granted it's early in the season, but there are obviously other factors at work such as the fact that fans may have spent a lot of money on the RWC and are holding back now.

former total wrote: »

At the moment, the NIQ policy falls between two stools. The IRFU are limiting both the quantity and quality of the players the provinces can sign.

If you want to say that we can only have 4 NIQs to ensure enough players come through for the national side, then fine, but let them sign decent players.
As it stands, they're signing mid-range players who are good enough to keep a provincial jersey but not good enough to elevate the team to the top level. So it hobbles the province but provides no benefit to the national team.

And now the chickens are coming home to roost in terms of the inability of the provinces to compete and the falling ticket sales.

It's short-sighted in the extreme.

How are the IRFU limiting the quality of NIQs? Is quality not a function of the money available and the perceived strength of the province? High quality players are going to be more attracted to France or England where there's more money. French teams have massive budgets compared to us. There's no possible way we could compete with them.

Tarf1234

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Attendances have dropped across the board this year alright, but surprisingly Connacht (a winning team) are experiencing the biggest drop.

Granted it's early in the season, but there are obviously other factors at work such as the fact that fans may have spent a lot of money on the RWC and are holding back now.


How are the IRFU limiting the quality of NIQs? Is quality not a function of the money available and the perceived strength of the province? High quality players are going to be more attracted to France or England where there's more money. French teams have massive budgets compared to us. There's no possible way we could compete with them.

I also think some of the drop off may have been down to people not going to games during the WC. I still think there has been a drop excluding the RWC impact but that's hard to quantify.

Personally I'd prefer less of signing the likes of Kirchener, Ludik etc. In terms of imports I'd much rather 2 €500k players then 2 €300K players and 2 €200k players. Trust our own to provide depth and develop and spend bigger on the imports we bring in.

molloyjh

former total wrote: »

The plummeting provincial attendances seem to indicate that many people want to support a winning team.

At the moment, the NIQ policy falls between two stools. The IRFU are limiting both the quantity and quality of the players the provinces can sign.

If you want to say that we can only have 4 NIQs to ensure enough players come through for the national side, then fine, but let them sign decent players.
As it stands, they're signing mid-range players who are good enough to keep a provincial jersey but not good enough to elevate the team to the top level. So it hobbles the province but provides no benefit to the national team.

And now the chickens are coming home to roost in terms of the inability of the provinces to compete and the falling ticket sales.

It's short-sighted in the extreme.

For starters this idea that Irish provinces are falling behind needs to be looked at. Are they really?

Leinster are struggling for form, but have a huge number of quality internationals in their side. Had they had a bit of a run in to this seasons campaign, i.e. no RWC, and had found a little bit of form it is quite feasible to believe that they may be topping the pool right now. The lack of quality NIQs is not the thing holding us back.

Ulster have had their issues with coaching set-ups lately and it'll be interesting to see how Kiss does there. They need some forward talent from somewhere to compliment that talented back line. But have they been blocked from buying particular high quality NIQs there thus far? Honest answer is I don't know. I do find it strange that the marquee signing they did get was an outside back, but that's another discussion. Either way they aren't down and out yet so we may be being a bit premature in saying they can't compete.

Munster have serious issues with the way in which they have been developing talent. I have to say I find it strange as they went through a period of 10 years where they were a very big and successful side. That should have brought more and more people into the game and therefore more kids, who should be coming through at this stage. 4 top quality NIQs isn't enough to solve their depth issues as the problems there seem a good deal greater. So yeah it probably is safe to say they are falling behind, but the reasons for this need to be tackled regardless of who they can or can't bring in.

Connacht have been doing well given their exemptions, but they are also starting to produce a lot of young talent too. Look at their underage sides over the last couple of seasons. I'm not sure we can include them in the discussions though given the fact that they aren't under the same rules.

Either way the IQ thing may help to solve some of Ulsters issues (as it is they have Peinaar now and are getting Piutau), but it really isn't some sort of magic bullet for Leinster or Munster. And that assumes we can even attract the talent in the first place. If you take 4 top class NIQs across the 3 provinces and work out the amount of cash required to get them you're talking some very serious amounts of cash. You start paying them big money like that and the Irish lads will start looking for their share then too. Is that really a road we want to go down? A few years back it wasn't so bad, but the amounts of money we're talking about now could open up a big can of worms before long. And when given the choice of the south of France or grey little Ireland.....

We need to focus on getting our systems right here. If we can get Munster producing talent like Leinster have been, if Ulster can start developing a few forwards and if Connacht keep progressing as they have been we'll have a very healthy, sustainable set-up here. If we take the longer term view that could help to strengthen both our provincial and national teams. And we won't be disappearing down some sort of financial rabbit hole in the process.

Leinster have a team that can compete at the highest levels, even if they aren't right now. And they can do that with no real marquee signings (Nacewa and Te'o don't count IMO as one was out of the game for 2 years and the other was a league convert). If all 4 provinces can get to that then surely that's the ideal? And surely that's here the money and the effort needs to go?

Tarf1234

Tarf1234 wrote: »

I also think some of the drop off may have been down to people not going to games during the WC. I still think there has been a drop excluding the RWC impact but that's hard to quantify.

Personally I'd prefer less of signing the likes of Kirchener, Ludik etc. In terms of imports I'd much rather 2 €500k players then 2 €300K players and 2 €200k players. Trust our own to provide depth and develop and spend bigger on the imports we bring in.

From a fanbase point of view I can understand the big signing and the impact that it has on attendances to have a highly recognisable figure in the team.

However as an employer - it's often better to spread out wage costs on several "good" people as opposed to expensive superstars as you get a greater return on investment and less risk if the individuals performances aren't great (or if they are injured).

So from the provinces point of view, it often contributes more to end of year results to have an overall good squad, then a weaker overall squad with one or two world beaters. Can bite you in the ass in knockout games however.

CMOTDibbler

molloyjh wrote: »

We need to focus on getting our systems right here. If we can get Munster producing talent like Leinster have been, if Ulster can start developing a few forwards and if Connacht keep progressing as they have been we'll have a very healthy, sustainable set-up here. If we take the longer term view that could help to strengthen both our provincial and national teams. And we won't be disappearing down some sort of financial rabbit hole in the process.

Leinster have a team that can compete at the highest levels, even if they aren't right now. And they can do that with no real marquee signings (Nacewa and Te'o don't count IMO as one was out of the game for 2 years and the other was a league convert). If all 4 provinces can get to that then surely that's the ideal? And surely that's here the money and the effort needs to go?

Thank you!

I've been banging this drum for a while now and the discussion keeps coming back to NIQs as if they were some sort of magic bullet. All it does is ramp up the 'arms race'. We need to spend the money on developing from within.

The same amount of money that's mooted to be spent on one marquee signing would go a hell of a long way in the academies. €500,000 is probably more than the academies' current budgets. If we're going to import, let it be a couple of good coaches rather than a player who could up sticks and leave with the next contract offer.

Or spend it on coach development here or overseas, or increase the academy sizes. We have player numbers, we're just not developing them.

CMOTDibbler

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Thank you!

I've been banging this drum for a while now and the discussion keeps coming back to NIQs as if they were some sort of magic bullet. All it does is ramp up the 'arms race'. We need to spend the money on developing from within.

The same amount of money that's mooted to be spent on one marquee signing would go a hell of a long way in the academies. €500,000 is probably more than the academies' current budgets. If we're going to import, let it be a couple of good coaches rather than a player who could up sticks and leave with the next contract offer.

Or spend it on coach development here or overseas, or increase the academy sizes. We have player numbers, we're just not developing them.

Yeah I agree with both you and Jolly Hipster, however I still think it's important having players from abroad coming into the setup. They bring a lot to the squad outside of just their playing ability.

I think if Nacewa wasn't the presence and personality that he is, we probably wouldn't have sought his return. I often go back to what O'Connell and BOD said about some of the early Lions tours, it seemed to bring them along an awful lot and teach them about true professionalism. Many credit those tours for the development of Irish rugby from mid 00's onwards.

Toner often talks about the influence Brad Throne had on his career and Sexton obviously benefited a lot from understudying Contemponi.

former total

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Attendances have dropped across the board this year alright, but surprisingly Connacht (a winning team) are experiencing the biggest drop.

Granted it's early in the season, but there are obviously other factors at work such as the fact that fans may have spent a lot of money on the RWC and are holding back now.

I would probably attribute the apparent drop in Connacht's gates to the fact that none of the glamour teams have visited the Sportsground this season. I'm sure if you just looked that other provinces' attendances for the visits of the Italian teams and the Dragons, you'd see an even bigger fall-off.

The RWC is a possibly a factor but the problem has not just arisen this year.

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

How are the IRFU limiting the quality of NIQs? Is quality not a function of the money available and the perceived strength of the province? High quality players are going to be more attracted to France or England where there's more money. French teams have massive budgets compared to us. There's no possible way we could compete with them.

I'm not suggesting that we go down the Toulon route of having a squad full of galacticos, merely that the 4 NIQs we are permitted would be of higher calibre. The money is most definitely there for that, at Ulster and Leinster anyway. (and in fairness, next season Ulster should have Pienaar and Piutau which you can't argue with).

bilston

molloyjh wrote: »

For starters this idea that Irish provinces are falling behind needs to be looked at. Are they really?

Leinster are struggling for form, but have a huge number of quality internationals in their side. Had they had a bit of a run in to this seasons campaign, i.e. no RWC, and had found a little bit of form it is quite feasible to believe that they may be topping the pool right now. The lack of quality NIQs is not the thing holding us back.

Ulster have had their issues with coaching set-ups lately and it'll be interesting to see how Kiss does there. They need some forward talent from somewhere to compliment that talented back line. But have they been blocked from buying particular high quality NIQs there thus far? Honest answer is I don't know. I do find it strange that the marquee signing they did get was an outside back, but that's another discussion. Either way they aren't down and out yet so we may be being a bit premature in saying they can't compete.

Munster have serious issues with the way in which they have been developing talent. I have to say I find it strange as they went through a period of 10 years where they were a very big and successful side. That should have brought more and more people into the game and therefore more kids, who should be coming through at this stage. 4 top quality NIQs isn't enough to solve their depth issues as the problems there seem a good deal greater. So yeah it probably is safe to say they are falling behind, but the reasons for this need to be tackled regardless of who they can or can't bring in.

Connacht have been doing well given their exemptions, but they are also starting to produce a lot of young talent too. Look at their underage sides over the last couple of seasons. I'm not sure we can include them in the discussions though given the fact that they aren't under the same rules.

Either way the IQ thing may help to solve some of Ulsters issues (as it is they have Peinaar now and are getting Piutau), but it really isn't some sort of magic bullet for Leinster or Munster. And that assumes we can even attract the talent in the first place. If you take 4 top class NIQs across the 3 provinces and work out the amount of cash required to get them you're talking some very serious amounts of cash. You start paying them big money like that and the Irish lads will start looking for their share then too. Is that really a road we want to go down? A few years back it wasn't so bad, but the amounts of money we're talking about now could open up a big can of worms before long. And when given the choice of the south of France or grey little Ireland.....

We need to focus on getting our systems right here. If we can get Munster producing talent like Leinster have been, if Ulster can start developing a few forwards and if Connacht keep progressing as they have been we'll have a very healthy, sustainable set-up here. If we take the longer term view that could help to strengthen both our provincial and national teams. And we won't be disappearing down some sort of financial rabbit hole in the process.

Leinster have a team that can compete at the highest levels, even if they aren't right now. And they can do that with no real marquee signings (Nacewa and Te'o don't count IMO as one was out of the game for 2 years and the other was a league convert). If all 4 provinces can get to that then surely that's the ideal? And surely that's here the money and the effort needs to go?

We do of course need to develop our local talent and in Ulster's case we need to produce a couple of back rowers asap. However to the besr of my knowledge they don't exist. I am mot aware of anyone in the Academy likely to cut it. Joyce has been about for a while now and has hardly had a look in, Taggart and Dow haven't either, instead we are relying on AIL players to fill the gaps. Added to that Wilson is 34, Williams is 32 and Henry is 30. Either way you look at it we are in serious serious need of strengthening here. The medium to long term solution is develop our own, of course it is, but short term we need a top class back rower. There really are no ifs or buts about that. The fact is without a quality back row the rest of our team suffers which means Henderson, Best, Henry, Jackson and Trimble etc suffer which isn't good for Ireland. The same goes for all the provinces, particularly, I think, for Ulster and Munster.

Of course I think you may be hinting that Ulster already have two top class NIQs on our books for next season, it is our choice that they are a 9 and a back three player and that is another debate.

CMOTDibbler

former total wrote: »

I would probably attribute the apparent drop in Connacht's gates to the fact that none of the glamour teams have visited the Sportsground this season. I'm sure if you just looked that other provinces' attendances for the visits of the Italian teams and the Dragons, you'd see an even bigger fall-off.

The RWC is a possibly a factor but the problem has not just arisen this year.

Only once last season did Connacht's attendance drop below 4,000. They haven't got past the 4k mark this season so far where they were regularly over the 5k mark this time last season. They only went below 5k three times last season.

former total wrote: »

I'm not suggesting that we go down the Toulon route of having a squad full of galacticos, merely that the 4 NIQs we are permitted would be of higher calibre. The money is most definitely there for that, at Ulster and Leinster anyway. (and in fairness, next season Ulster should have Pienaar and Piutau which you can't argue with).

The money may be there, but I'm not convinced it's best spent in that way. You're getting some quality players but that doesn't prevent them getting injured or leaving for a bigger wedge elsewhere and you're back to square one. Short term solutions won't fix long term problems, especially if you're using up the resources you need to fix those long term problems.

The Lost Sheep

Neil3030 wrote: »

Why do they need to play in Ireland to provide rare emergency cover? This is the bit I don't understand.

Suppose two scenarios:

(a) Fifita (already a better player than Diack) joins Ulster and potentially naturalises, Diack goes to England.

(b) Diack stays at Ulster.

How is scenario (b) better than (a) for the national side?

I don't see how this is better. I would prefer Diack stays and the money that would be used to sign all these players goes into changing practices/philosophys of coaches/players and developing grassroots to help develop better players in the long term. Just getting rid of a load of players to sign a few foreigners isn't development and hides the issues that are on the table

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Attendances have dropped across the board this year alright, but surprisingly Connacht (a winning team) are experiencing the biggest drop.

Province|Avge 15/16|Avge 14/15|% drop
Munster|10,290|13,180|22.0
Ulster|14,920|16,040|7.0
Leinster*|13,020|15,060|13.5
Connacht|3,630|5,350|32.0

*Excluding the interpro against Munster in Lansdowne Road

Granted it's early in the season, but there are obviously other factors at work such as the fact that fans may have spent a lot of money on the RWC and are holding back now.

How are the IRFU limiting the quality of NIQs? Is quality not a function of the money available and the perceived strength of the province? High quality players are going to be more attracted to France or England where there's more money. French teams have massive budgets compared to us. There's no possible way we could compete with them.

To compare attendances with previous seasons you have to take into account days of games/kick off times/world cup.
IRFU have vetoed signings as mentioned in media several times.

CMOTDibbler

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

To compare attendances with previous seasons you have to take into account days of games/kick off times/world cup.

I have. I said there have to be other factors at play to account for the declines. Having said that, it's roughly five home games so far against eleven last year.

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

IRFU have vetoed signings as mentioned in media several times.

The only recent one I can think of is Stephen Moore to Munster. IMO there didn't seem to be a pressing need for another hooker at Munster and I'm not the only one who thought that. Although he would have been a quality signing, I'm not seeing this as the IRFU stopping quality signings per se. Piutau to Ulster is a quality signing and that's going ahead.

The Lost Sheep

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

I have. I said there have to be other factors at play to account for the declines. Having said that, it's roughly five home games so far against eleven last year.

But the circumstances around the games are very different. Clashes with the world cup and then drop in form. Connacht also have not had any intepros which will affect average....

The only recent one I can think of is Stephen Moore to Munster. IMO there didn't seem to be a pressing need for another hooker at Munster and I'm not the only one who thought that. Although he would have been a quality signing, I'm not seeing this as the IRFU stopping quality signings per se. Piutau to Ulster is a quality signing and that's going ahead.

There was/is a need for a hooker for Munster and there has certainly been other cases of vetoes used. There has been a change in policy from IRFU which is clear to anyone....

jm08

molloyjh wrote: »

Munster have serious issues with the way in which they have been developing talent. I have to say I find it strange as they went through a period of 10 years where they were a very big and successful side. That should have brought more and more people into the game and therefore more kids, who should be coming through at this stage. 4 top quality NIQs isn't enough to solve their depth issues as the problems there seem a good deal greater. So yeah it probably is safe to say they are falling behind, but the reasons for this need to be tackled regardless of who they can or can't bring in.

I think Munster have different challenges than Leinster (Ulster have similar issues to Munster), so its a bit much to say that Munster have serious issues developing talent (other than small population, country area etc which Leinster do not have being based in an area that half the population of the ROI live in. Hurling will always be the big deal in most Munster counties and Gaelic football in Kerry. Only 2 players in the last 20 or so years have defected from hurling (O'Leary & Sweetnam). Mick Galwey is the only Kerry footballer to stick with rugby.

Think of it like this - if Carlow was a successful gaelic football county, Sean O'Brien would not be playing rugby. You don't see too many rugby players coming from Kilkenny.

The Lost Sheep

jm08 wrote: »

I think Munster have different challenges than Leinster (Ulster have similar issues to Munster), so its a bit much to say that Munster have serious issues developing talent (other than small population, country area etc which Leinster do not have being based in an area that half the population of the ROI live in. Hurling will always be the big deal in most Munster counties and Gaelic football in Kerry. Only 2 players in the last 20 or so years have defected from hurling (O'Leary & Sweetnam). Mick Galwey is the only Kerry footballer to stick with rugby.

Think of it like this - if Carlow was a successful gaelic football county, Sean O'Brien would not be playing rugby. You don't see too many rugby players coming from Kilkenny.

It isn't much at all to say Munster have serious issues developing "talent". We have very big issues across multiple areas in the talent ID area

jm08

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

It isn't much at all to say Munster have serious issues developing "talent". We have very big issues across multiple areas in the talent ID area

The issue is that GAA will always be the most attractive sport in Munster because there are facilities to play gaa in every village there, plus all the counties are fairly competitive and have a realistic chance of being fairly successful.

It is very hard to compete for hearts and minds with that.

Podge_irl

jm08 wrote: »

Think of it like this - if Carlow was a successful gaelic football county, Sean O'Brien would not be playing rugby. You don't see too many rugby players coming from Kilkenny.

Good thing Dublin isn't a successful gaelic football county so!

It's a problem sure, but it's hardly unique to Munster.

former total

jm08 wrote: »

The issue is that GAA will always be the most attractive sport in Munster because there are facilities to play gaa in every village there, plus all the counties are fairly competitive and have a realistic chance of being fairly successful.

It is very hard to compete for hearts and minds with that.

This is not a Munster issue, it's an Ireland issue. Rugby is a minority sport and competes with other sports in absolutely every country in every province.

The Lost Sheep

jm08 wrote: »

The issue is that GAA will always be the most attractive sport in Munster because there are facilities to play gaa in every village there, plus all the counties are fairly competitive and have a realistic chance of being fairly successful.

It is very hard to compete for hearts and minds with that.

GAA dominates everywhere. Not just in Munster. Talking about "hearts and minds" is clichéd .....
We are not doing enough.

CMOTDibbler

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

But the circumstances around the games are very different. Clashes with the world cup and then drop in form. Connacht also have not had any intepros which will affect average....

Maybe it's unclear but I'm actually arguing that the drop off in attendances is not as bad as it seems. The Connacht example was used to show that a team on an upward curve is getting attendances in the opposite direction which has to be attributable to external factors like the RWC.

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

There was/is a need for a hooker for Munster and there has certainly been other cases of vetoes used. There has been a change in policy from IRFU which is clear to anyone....

As I said, most posters here didn't think it was necessary:

thomond2006 wrote: »

42.ie ( yes I know total former!) are saying the IRFU blocked a move for Stephen Moore for next season. Not sure how I feel about it...we are not short of hookers if they stay healthy.

case885 wrote: »

I know Stephen Moore is a quality player but it doesn't take a genius to figure out TH is where we need a top NIQ. An openside would be higher on the priority list than a hooker also.

phog wrote: »

Unless one of or both of Casey & Sherry arec leaving I've no idea why we looked for Moore but I'm delighted we've the money for that quality of player.

There was also talk of Munster looking abroad for a flanker which was blocked and the suggestion that Dom Ryan be signed instead.

Personally I'd be in favour of that approach. Provinces should be sharing around their resources if they have talent to spare in particular positions. If there's no-one available, then it's time to look abroad.

jm08

Podge_irl wrote: »

Good thing Dublin isn't a successful gaelic football county so!

It's a problem sure, but it's hardly unique to Munster.

Population of Dublin city 527,612.
Population of Limerick City 27,947.

Leinster have 2 successful GAA counties out of 12.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

jm08 wrote: »

Population of Dublin city 527,612.
Population of Limerick City 27,947.

Leinster have 2 successful GAA counties out of 12.

2 successful county teams. Are there numbers for club teams per county and participation numbers at club level?

The Lost Sheep

jm08 wrote: »

Population of Dublin city 527,612.
Population of Limerick City 27,947.

Leinster have 2 successful GAA counties out of 12.

Nonsense and whatever you're implying about GAA having more of an impact on Munster than Leinster is nonsense

jm08

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

GAA dominates everywhere. Not just in Munster. Talking about "hearts and minds" is clichéd .....
We are not doing enough.

And Leinster, with its large number of schools that play rugby can produce a lot more players. That just won't happen in Munster (outside of Limerick) who have quite a few schools that play rugby.

Hearts and minds might be cliched, but its true. I look at the kids in my area who would go to Thomond Park for a game (40 miles away), but they are never going to play rugby because the nearest rugby club is 10 miles away, plays its sport in winter when the kids are in school with one bus which leaves after school so they are not going to be able to play after school either. They all play GAA because there is a clubhouse that they can walk, cycle right in the parish and the sport is mainly played in the summer when they have free time.

CMOTDibbler

jm08 wrote: »

And Leinster, with its large number of schools that play rugby can produce a lot more players. That just won't happen in Munster (outside of Limerick) who have quite a few schools that play rugby.

The number of schools playing rugby in Leinster is often assumed to be mostly fee-paying schools. I remember looking it up some time ago and less than half of the schools playing rugby in Leinster are actually fee-paying.

There's clearly potential there for the non-fee-paying schools to take up rugby. That would solve the problem where there aren't clubs in the area(s).

The Lost Sheep

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

The number of schools playing rugby in Leinster is often assumed to be mostly fee-paying schools. I remember looking it up some time ago and less than half of the schools playing rugby in Leinster are actually fee-paying.

There's clearly potential there for the non-fee-paying schools to take up rugby. That would solve the problem where there aren't clubs in the area(s).

At the top end it is nearly all fee paying. There is clubs in all areas, virtually, and trying to get rugby programmes set up in schools so that pupils in these schools are getting 10-15 games minimum per school year is impossible. There is already clubs that need more resources. By all means use schools to get kids interested in playing the game but then divert them into the clubs that will or should already have the coaches and some kids already interested in playing.

jm08

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

2 successful county teams. Are there numbers for club teams per county and participation numbers at club level?

I'm sure there are if you have some time on your hands.
http://www.clubgaa.ie/

Joe Canning played a bit of rugby (and apparently was pretty good). He stayed with hurling though - both his club (Portunma) & county are well in with a chance of winning stuff.

Here is a list of the all ireland club winners:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All-Ireland_Senior_Club_Hurling_Championship

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All-Ireland_Senior_Club_Football_Championship

CMOTDibbler

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

At the top end it is nearly all fee paying. There is clubs in all areas, virtually, and trying to get rugby programmes set up in schools so that pupils in these schools are getting 10-15 games minimum per school year is impossible. There is already clubs that need more resources. By all means use schools to get kids interested in playing the game but then divert them into the clubs that will or should already have the coaches and some kids already interested in playing.

I agree about the top end, but a level down at Leinster (Vinny Murray cup for example) you get the likes of Pres Bray, St. Pats Navan, CBS Enniscorthy etc. playing and all non fee-paying.

If they were to start in school, it can only be good for the clubs when they leave and have the ability to travel that 10 miles or so that they may not have had whilst attending school.

jm08

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Nonsense and whatever you're implying about GAA having more of an impact on Munster than Leinster is nonsense

My point is that participation maybe high, but not all participants are going to make top level sports people who want to get to the top of whatever sport they do play. Thats why I mentioned Sean O'Brien - I bet if Carlow was a successful gaa county, Sean O'Brien would be playing gaelic football. There are 10 counties in Leinster like Carlow. Not too many rugby players (or any other sport other than hurling coming out of Kilkenny.

CMOTDibbler

jm08 wrote: »

My point is that participation maybe high, but not all participants are going to make top level sports people who want to get to the top of whatever sport they do play. Thats why I mentioned Sean O'Brien - I bet if Carlow was a successful gaa county, Sean O'Brien would be playing gaelic football. There are 10 counties in Leinster like Carlow. Not too many rugby players (or any other sport other than hurling coming out of Kilkenny.

Ehhh....

Robin Copeland is a past pupil of Kilkenny College and he plays for some province down south, give me a minute, it'll come to me...

Add in Craig Ronaldson, Shane Delahunt and Peter Lydon (played for some Paris based outfit before moving to London Scottish) all from Kilkenny too.

Edit: just to add that there's four lads from one non-fee-paying school that have all made it to professional level and are doing well at that level.

aimee1

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Ehhh....

Robin Copeland is a past pupil of Kilkenny College and he plays for some province down south, give me a minute, it'll come to me...

Add in Craig Ronaldson, Shane Delahunt and Peter Lydon (played for some Paris based outfit before moving to London Scottish) all from Kilkenny too.

Was ian dowling from kilkenny?

CMOTDibbler

aimee1 wrote: »

Was ian dowling from kilkenny?

Yep, he played for Kilkenny RFC.

Forgot about him (probably because he's retired, but still...)

The Lost Sheep

jm08 wrote: »

And Leinster, with its large number of schools that play rugby can produce a lot more players. That just won't happen in Munster (outside of Limerick) who have quite a few schools that play rugby.

Hearts and minds might be cliched, but its true. I look at the kids in my area who would go to Thomond Park for a game (40 miles away), but they are never going to play rugby because the nearest rugby club is 10 miles away, plays its sport in winter when the kids are in school with one bus which leaves after school so they are not going to be able to play after school either. They all play GAA because there is a clubhouse that they can walk, cycle right in the parish and the sport is mainly played in the summer when they have free time.

Obviously Leinster will be able to produce more players on average. They have more playing. Not in schools. Just in total.
We have to stop looking at "de leinster schools" in Munster. We never will compete with that. We have to look at the clubs and that is where we can grow. If on twitter look at the hashtags #MC16 and #MC18 for hopefully improved coverage on club rugby in the province. We have sides in Munster finals like Bantry Bay for example. That club was only reformed about 20 years ago and is producing significant numbers to the talent id set up year on year.

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

I agree about the top end, but a level down at Leinster (Vinny Murray cup for example) you get the likes of Pres Bray, St. Pats Navan, CBS Enniscorthy etc. playing and all non fee-paying.

If they were to start in school, it can only be good for the clubs when they leave and have the ability to travel that 10 miles or so that they may not have had whilst attending school.

You do. As ive said the key is starting kids in the schools getting them introduced to the sport and then build on that in the clubs. Pats Navan for example are hugely tied into Navan RFC and Pats Navan success has been built on Navan RFC success.

jm08 wrote: »

My point is that participation maybe high, but not all participants are going to make top level sports people who want to get to the top of whatever sport they do play. Thats why I mentioned Sean O'Brien - I bet if Carlow was a successful gaa county, Sean O'Brien would be playing gaelic football. There are 10 counties in Leinster like Carlow. Not too many rugby players (or any other sport other than hurling coming out of Kilkenny.

There are not 10 counties in Leinster like Carlow that is completely ignorant of the sporting scene in Leinster

aimee1

jm08 wrote: »

My point is that participation maybe high, but not all participants are going to make top level sports people who want to get to the top of whatever sport they do play. Thats why I mentioned Sean O'Brien - I bet if Carlow was a successful gaa county, Sean O'Brien would be playing gaelic football. There are 10 counties in Leinster like Carlow. Not too many rugby players (or any other sport other than hurling coming out of Kilkenny.

Gaelic football is on a huge surge in dublin on the back of recent success and the dubs were always big news even when they were sh1te and schoolboy soccer is massive in dublin too and with the premier league across the water dominating the landscape with the media coverage it gets soccer will always be the top participation sport in dublin.

So the issues are the same just the alternatives aren't

CMOTDibbler

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

You do. As ive said the key is starting kids in the schools getting them introduced to the sport and then build on that in the clubs. Pats Navan for example are hugely tied into Navan RFC and Pats Navan success has been built on Navan RFC success.

This is exactly the model that is needed. There are other such tie-ins happening in Leinster (apart from Kilkenny RFC and Kilkenny College) there are also the likes of Wicklow RFC and East Glendalough School and Arklow RFC and some of the schools in Arklow.

jm08

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Ehhh....

Robin Copeland is a past pupil of Kilkenny College and he plays for some province down south, give me a minute, it'll come to me...

Add in Craig Ronaldson, Shane Delahunt and Peter Lydon (played for some Paris based outfit before moving to London Scottish) all from Kilkenny too.

Edit: just to add that there's four lads from one non-fee-paying school that have all made it to professional level and are doing well at that level.

Shane Delahunt is from Birr, Robin Copeland is from Wexford, Peter Lydon is from Dublin for starters.

You should know that Kilkenny College is a large boarding school.

The Lost Sheep

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

This is exactly the model that is needed. There are other such tie-ins happening in Leinster (apart from Kilkenny RFC and Kilkenny College) there are also the likes of Wicklow RFC and East Glendalough School and Arklow RFC and some of the schools in Arklow.

Problem with places like Kilkenny is hurling more than anywhere else - famous pic that's in media every year etc https://twitter.com/KieransCollege/status/641298815392317440/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

We will never get near reaching our potential in rugby in this country by focusing on schools at age grade there needs to be a much better coordinated multi faceted approach involving clubs, the rugby playing schools(the exempt 79) and the "non traditional" schools

jm08

aimee1 wrote: »

Gaelic football is on a huge surge in dublin on the back of recent success and the dubs were always big news even when they were sh1te and schoolboy soccer is massive in dublin too and with the premier league across the water dominating the landscape with the media coverage it gets soccer will always be the top participation sport in dublin.

So the issues are the same just the alternatives aren't

Gaelic football has always been very popular in Dublin. Its hurling where there has been a huge surge of interest in. The Dublin GAA has invested millions in developing it.