Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread V

The Rape of Lucretia

awec wrote: »

Not really outrage, but it would be baffling.

He is the man now for sure. I would even say he has to be the essential centre pick above all others. Whether that means, Henchie, Paynie, Fitzie, or, dare I say it, even Earlsie at 13, is almost by the way.
Stuie must start.

bilston

former total wrote: »

The problem is that picking McCloskey means dropping Henshaw. I'd be surprised.

Maybe if Payne is still out.

Henshaw would surely move to 13 if McCloskey came in.

Someone on uafc today was saying Payne isn't due back until after the 6Ns...although he may have been talking about Ulster.

shaungil

I heard Trevor Hogan called alan O'Connor as a potential bolter for 6N squad. With henderosn gone I guess Ryan and Foley are next in line to replace POC.

Triumvirate

Hogan is talking through his rear. AOC's first starts of the season were the Toulouse games. He has little enough knowledge on what's actually happening week to week. He also commented that he expects Dusautoir to be much better in the 6N than he has been for Toulouse. Gavin Cummiskey actually had to inform him that Dusautoir has retired from test rugby despite the retirement being big news and in every paper and on every sports website.

Cummiskey, for his part, is knowledgeable but what an utter Leinster sycophant.

Toner, Ryan and McCarthy will be the locks in the Irish 23 in the 6N. Foley will be in the squad but that's due to a lack of options at the moment. He needs to start stepping up a level in his performances. He's 28 this season and will find himself left behind if he doesn't.

bilston

shaungil wrote: »

I heard Trevor Hogan called alan O'Connor as a potential bolter for 6N squad. With henderosn gone I guess Ryan and Foley are next in line to replace POC.

AOC has been great but I'd be pretty surprised if that came to pass!

thomond2006

Honestly I'd love some fresh faces to be put into the team.

The Lost Sheep

molloyjh wrote: »

Are we talking about improving or about blooding younger players? Because the two are not interdependent. In fact they may well be mutually exclusive.

We blood you get players in the summer and autumn games. We blood them as and when they are ready to fit in with the other internationals in the 6 Nations. There aren't many young players who haven't gotten a look in that should so far.

Anyway the RWC is all well and good, but the 6 Nations is our bread and butter. We can't go using that as a development competition. Nor should we.

The 6Ns is bread and butter but we have to use it better. If we "threw" some 6Ns in the aim of working better towards 2019 it would help us. IRFU wont change but considering how last few world cups have went and nothing major has changed around IRFU approach to the 6Nations and aims for a world cup but by focusing on winning "x" 6Ns in each cycle that doesnt aid development.
By using more players/wider pool doesnt mean the 6 Nations is a development competition or diminish its status

molloyjh

I'm just going to leave this here again.

molloyjh wrote: »

Payne has an edge over McCloskey in that he knows the set-up and the systems. You can't underestimate how important that is.

McCloskey is playing well and deserves a call up to the squad. But he has no experience with the Irish team and no experience of the systems, calls and plays Ireland use. Being good in a side he trains and plays with every day and being good in a team he's never played with and barely ever trained with is a totally different thing. And by refusing to acknowledge that you're setting ridiculously unreal expectations, for both the player and the coach.

He's one of the form players right now, but form is only one of a number of considerations. Just like Toner vs Henderson it's a lot more complicated than people are making out.

The Rape of Lucretia

thomond2006 wrote: »

Honestly I'd love some fresh faces to be put into the team.

- Just for the entertainment value of seeing how other players would perform (result secondary) ?
- Because thats what you think is necessary to win the next game ?
- Because you would feel its investing in the longer term success even if not necessarily the best pick for that single game ?

CatFromHue

If McCloskey keeps his form up I think he'll make the squad.

He's not competing with Payne for a spot but with an out of position Henshaw.

Can he do what Henshaw does? I think so.

Stheno

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

- Just for the entertainment value of seeing how other players would perform (result secondary) ?
- Because thats what you think is necessary to win the next game ?
- Because you would feel its investing in the longer term success even if not necessarily the best pick for that single game ?

I'd like to see new players in the squad for the following reasons:

1. Some of our first starters are injury prone (Sexton/R. Kearney/Payne), so if they do suffer an injury we have more than one option.
2. If they end up in the extended team, they get some exposure to 6N level rugby

molloyjh

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

The 6Ns is bread and butter but we have to use it better. If we "threw" some 6Ns in the aim of working better towards 2019 it would help us. IRFU wont change but considering how last few world cups have went and nothing major has changed around IRFU approach to the 6Nations and aims for a world cup but by focusing on winning "x" 6Ns in each cycle that doesnt aid development.
By using more players/wider pool doesnt mean the 6 Nations is a development competition or diminish its status

So throw away a few competitions that we have a strong chance of winning for one competition we stand far less of a chance of winning? One that comes around once every 4 years and doesn't provide us with anything like the cash we get from the 6Ns? And start doing that in a year when we need to ensure a strong ceding for said competition? Surely the first step to a strong RWC is good seeding?

Ireland have been using more players over the last few years. And doing it gradually. And when they've come in they've generally slotted in well. We haven't needed to throw anything. We've had a few problem positions over the years that have meant limited development, but I've faith that guys like McCloskey will feature in the Irish set-up and get their starts this year without having to sacrifice the 6Ns.

thomond2006

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

- Just for the entertainment value of seeing how other players would perform (result secondary) ?
- Because thats what you think is necessary to win the next game ?
- Because you would feel its investing in the longer term success even if not necessarily the best pick for that single game ?

A bit of all of the above really! I think McCloskey definitely deserves to start as it stands, JVDF should also be in contention. Should Cian Healy be involved in his current form, as sacrilegious as that might sound in my adopted province?

The Lost Sheep

molloyjh wrote: »

So throw away a few competitions that we have a strong chance of winning for one competition we stand far less of a chance of winning? One that comes around once every 4 years and doesn't provide us with anything like the cash we get from the 6Ns? And start doing that in a year when we need to ensure a strong ceding for said competition? Surely the first step to a strong RWC is good seeding?

Ireland have been using more players over the last few years. And doing it gradually. And when they've come in they've generally slotted in well. We haven't needed to throw anything. We've had a few problem positions over the years that have meant limited development, but I've faith that guys like McCloskey will feature in the Irish set-up and get their starts this year without having to sacrifice the 6Ns.

We are incredibly conservative and that is clearly seen by our performances in general in world cups. What would be the harm in using some 6Ns for developing more players. Im not directly speaking about this year. Im talking about the 6nations in general. Good seeding is helpful but to overly concentrate on that is too short term in its thinking. Same with IRFU focus on 6 Nations year in year out. We need to make a world cup semi final and we need to improve our playing base/depth

The Rape of Lucretia

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

We are incredibly conservative and that is clearly seen by our performances in general in world cups. What would be the harm in using some 6Ns for developing more players.

6N is a tournament. You dont develop players in that. You might blend in one or two players with the generally established, but they would want to be close calls with the incumbant or experienced option, and not just with an eye to the long term. Its a bad mistake to use it as development for a long term goal like a WC, even it that is 4 years away.

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

We need to make a world cup semi final

We dont need to as such. Of course we would like to. But keep winning or being second in the 6N and if you dont reach a semi or a final, there is something else wrong, not what you did in the 6N. The 6N is a valid goal on its own merit.

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

and we need to improve our playing base/depth

Not sure you you reckon that.
Depth is at an all time unprecedented high in Irish international rugby, and for our playing population I would have thought compares very well - astonishingly well really (though this is only in the last 3-4 years) - with the other top tier nations.

The Rape of Lucretia

thomond2006 wrote: »

A bit of all of the above really! I think McCloskey definitely deserves to start as it stands, JVDF should also be in contention. Should Cian Healy be involved in his current form, as sacrilegious as that might sound in my adopted province?

McCloskey sure. JVDF not sure quite yet but like his style so far - the better Kieth Gleeson that Jenno never was that we have been waiting for on Simmonscourt Rd for a long time (those of us who believe O'Brien is really just a talented and effective 6 playing out of position anyway).

A horses for courses selection I wouldnt mind seeing this 6N somewhere would be OMahony/Heaslip/Ruddock.

Church on current form ? Not a chance. There are games for him twixt here and there though, and I would not at all discount him playing himself back into some form and genuinely merit the start again.

The Lost Sheep

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

6N is a tournament. You dont develop players in that. You might blend in one or two players with the generally established, but they would want to be close calls with the incumbant or experienced option, and not just with an eye to the long term. Its a bad mistake to use it as development for a long term goal like a WC, even it that is 4 years away.

What harm would it be to change our approach for some 6 Nations especially considering what IRFU have done hasnt worked for last how many world cups and that has been concentrating on 6 Nations. That is a ridiculously conservative typical IRFU blazer attitude that has to be got rid of

We dont need to as such. Of course we would like to. But keep winning or being second in the 6N and if you dont reach a semi or a final, there is something else wrong, not what you did in the 6N. The 6N is a valid goal on its own merit.

We do need to. We're the only nation of traditional big 8 not to do so. Argentina have surpassed us by a big margin. Have made semis twice. Im not dismissing the merits of the 6Nations just its merits in terms of the pedestal IRFU put on it.

shuffol

We could throw every 6N between now and 2019 in the hope of developing players but we'll still have an extremely slim chance of winning the WC. I guarantee if that happened we'd be hearing the opposite argument to now about needing to focus on the 6N.

As for form selections, if we went that way we'd have a new XV every week. I'd love to see McCloskey start but it isn't that simple, Henshaw has looked like the best young 12 in world rugby, I could understand Schmidt been reluctant to move him around. If that does happen though and it comes down to Fitz or McCloskey then it should be the latter.

First 3 games of the 6N are Wales, France and England, there's a reasonable chance that we'll be out of the running after that so that would allow for more experimental selections.

CMOTDibbler

The one advantage that McCloskey (and other Ulster players) have is that they are now coached by Les Kiss.

If there's one man who knows Joe's systems, it's Kiss. If Kiss thinks McCloskey is the man for the job, Joe will be listening. Kiss will also be able to bring him up to speed (for a given value of speed) in preparation for the 6N and outside the 6N training window.

An added advantage is that Payne is there too, so it's not as though the opportunity isn't there for him.

By the same token, if Kiss doesn't think he's ready, he won't be in the reckoning. But that's an outside bet really.

aimee1

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

McCloskey sure. JVDF not sure quite yet but like his style so far - the better Kieth Gleeson that Jenno never was that we have been waiting for on Simmonscourt Rd for a long time (those of us who believe O'Brien is really just a talented and effective 6 playing out of position anyway).

A horses for courses selection I wouldnt mind seeing this 6N somewhere would be OMahony/Heaslip/Ruddock.

Church on current form ? Not a chance. There are games for him twixt here and there though, and I would not at all discount him playing himself back into some form and genuinely merit the start again.

PoM is out for the season

Yeah_Right

A lot of fans don't seem to realise that current club form has almost nothing to do with a player making the match day 23 for Ireland. Once they make the training squad, it's entirely down to what they do at training that gets them game time. Just look at Marmion and Cave for proof of that.

PTH2009

For the previous 2 six nations after world cups (2008 and 2012) we struggled in them while our opponents in our first game Wales won grand slams following world cups.

The wc qf showed how much we struggled without poc and Sexton.

Beat Wales and the confidence will be back but after that it's the matter of travelling to play a newly coached French side and a English side with a new coach in a place that has be unfriendly to us over the last few years. I would of preferred to play Italy at home first

awec

I really don't think we're good enough to win it for a third year in a row (especially if it's the exact same tactics as the previous two years) so I don't see the harm in giving one or two lads some test experience. The fixtures this year are tough, France and England will be a lot better than what we have faced recently.

People kept talking about injuries hurting us in the World Cup. The only way to fix that is more depth, the only way to get more depth is give players time. And a box ticking exercise of 5 mins here, 10 mins there and a call up to a training camp just doesn't cut the mustard.

b.gud

awec wrote: »

I really don't think we're good enough to win it for a third year in a row (especially if it's the exact same tactics as the previous two years) so I don't see the harm in giving one or two lads some test experience.

People kept talking about injuries hurting us in the World Cup. The only way to fix that is more depth, the only way to get more depth is give players time. And a box ticking exercise of 5 mins here, 10 mins there and a call up to a training camp just doesn't cut the mustard.

That really makes no sense to me, "We're probably not gonna win, so lets not even try"
I want to see a few new players as well but I don't think we should give up before we even start

molloyjh

awec wrote: »

I really don't think we're good enough to win it for a third year in a row (especially if it's the exact same tactics as the previous two years) so I don't see the harm in giving one or two lads some test experience. The fixtures this year are tough, France and England will be a lot better than what we have faced recently.

People kept talking about injuries hurting us in the World Cup. The only way to fix that is more depth, the only way to get more depth is give players time. And a box ticking exercise of 5 mins here, 10 mins there and a call up to a training camp just doesn't cut the mustard.

Eh, the tactics in 2014 and the tactics in 2015 were completely different?????

You're also assuming France and England will be better, but there's no guarantee that will be the case at all. The French will have lost a few big players for starters and will have a new coach who hasn't exactly lit the world alight with Toulouse the last few years. England are going to be completely changing their team around I reckon and will have a guy far more technical than anything they've had in the recent past. There's no guarantee at all that they will settle quickly, which they will need to do as they won't have any more than a few weeks together before the 6 Nations.

We have at least 5 other games to give guys time in next year. Between that and whatever exposure people get in the 6 Nations we'll be fine. There really hasn't been any issue with young guys who are good enough getting blooded. I do think you're setting your outrage stall out early here, but I don't think it's at all founded.

And you have to remember the RWC seeding. We can't afford to throw this 6 Nations. We need the wins to give ourselves as good a chance as possible given our tough summer and autumn fixtures.

awec

b.gud wrote: »

That really makes no sense to me, "We're probably not gonna win, so lets not even try"
I want to see a few new players as well but I don't think we should give up before we even start

No, I am not saying we should give up, I am saying we wouldn't be throwing it by playing a few young players because it's very unlikely we'll win it either way.

awec

molloyjh wrote: »

Eh, the tactics in 2014 and the tactics in 2015 were completely different?????

You're also assuming France and England will be better, but there's no guarantee that will be the case at all. The French will have lost a few big players for starters and will have a new coach who hasn't exactly lit the world alight with Toulouse the last few years. England are going to be completely changing their team around I reckon and will have a guy far more technical than anything they've had in the recent past. There's no guarantee at all that they will settle quickly, which they will need to do as they won't have any more than a few weeks together before the 6 Nations.

We have at least 5 other games to give guys time in next year. Between that and whatever exposure people get in the 6 Nations we'll be fine. There really hasn't been any issue with young guys who are good enough getting blooded. I do think you're setting your outrage stall out early here, but I don't think it's at all founded.

And you have to remember the RWC seeding. We can't afford to throw this 6 Nations. We need the wins to give ourselves as good a chance as possible given our tough summer and autumn fixtures.

What does RWC seeding matter if we aren't taking steps to allow ourselves to actually compete at this tournament?

Why do people worry so much about the seeding, but seem unconcerned by the fact that we are doing nothing to help our chances of actually achieving something other than the bare minimum (or less) at the WC?

This makes absolutely no sense to me.

And England and France have points to prove. We won a 6 nations with our brand new coach, way too much emphasis put on "settling in" these days.

molloyjh

awec wrote: »

No, I am not saying we should give up, I am saying we wouldn't be throwing it by playing a few young players because it's very unlikely we'll win it either way.

That's incredibly defeatist and I'm not sure what it is based on at all.

We have Wales up first. They always start slow so it's actually a good time to get them.

Then we go away to France. A new French side missing a few senior players and under a new coach. As is the norm in France they won't have much time together pre-tournament so I've no idea how Noves is to be expected to turn things around there. They'll obviously be a tough side to beat, but I can't see how they'll be any better than they have been the last few years.

Then we're away to England. Eddie Jones hasn't had any time with the English players so far so doesn't even know his squad yet. He'll get a few weeks with them but in that time he'll need to identify his squad and get them playing the way he wants. Does he really have enough time to do that?

Our last 2 are at home to Italy and Scotland, both being games we should expect to win. And in both we know exactly what we'll need to do.

If you ask me there's nothing at all in there to suggest we can't go on and win the 6 Nations again this year. It'll be tough obviously, but it's far from impossible.

bilston

There isn't much to suggest France will be any better other than the fact that they may get the infamous new coach bounce.

Welsh hopes will depend on keeping key players fit but tactically they hold no secrets for anyone.

Harsh as it seems I think reports of the rise of Scotland are premature. Sure they should have beaten Australia and they have undoubtedly improved a bit, but realisitically they aren't going tor be contending for the title. However in a one off game they could beat anyone anywhere so are dangerous.

Italy are nowhere.

England are the big threat. They do have the players. They will have a squad motivated to the hilt and they have a great coach now. I fancy they will win the 6Ns and maybe even a GS.

We could certainly get 2nd behind them though and that would be a decent effort given the injuries. However if we lose to Wales it could be a struggle. We could finish on one win, we could finish in four, it's a fine line.

molloyjh

awec wrote: »

What does RWC seeding matter if we aren't taking steps to allow ourselves to actually compete at this tournament?

Why do people worry so much about the seeding, but seem unconcerned by the fact that we are doing nothing to help our chances of actually achieving something other than the bare minimum (or less) at the WC?

This makes absolutely no sense to me.

And England and France have points to prove. We won a 6 nations with our brand new coach, way too much emphasis put on "settling in" these days.

You don't win a RWC 3 1/2 years out from it. You're talking as if I'm saying we shouldn't be blooding young players, but I'm clearly not saying that at all.

As for us winning with a brand new coach, at that stage he wasn't a brand new coach. He toured with Ireland the summer before and then had them for the build up to the AIs, we then played the AIs and he then had the guys in over Christmas and in the build up to the 6 Nations. Neither Jones nor Noves will have had anything remotely like that time with their squads.

EDIT: Plus Joe had worked with most of the Irish squad at Leinster up to then too. So there was plenty of familiarity there by the time the 2014 6 Nations rolled around.

whatawaster

If you gave me a choice between blooding new players for the long term and finishing 3rd/4th in 6N

vs

Sticking with the same players and winning

Then I'd go winning every time.

But the thing is, arguably our best players in certain positions are not incumbents, and there are undoubtedly flaws/weaknesses in our setup.

1. McCloskey has been the best Irish centre this season. His ability to break the gain-line in midfield is something Ireland are sorely lacking. His choke tackle is among the best around.

2. With POM injured there is an opening at 6. Ruddock is playing fantastically well, and should be favourite for that position, but CJ Stander has to be on the bench imo. He is fantastic. Josh Van Der Flier has put his hand up in recent weeks - if SOB is missing he might be worth a call-up.

3. Fly-half - Paddy Jackson has proven in the last few weeks that he is by far our second-best ten. Yes, his kicking from the tee is flaky, but the rest of his game is top-notch. He has to start a game in the 6N imo, because Sexton is not reliable fitness-wise, and Madigan is getting zero game time.

4. Would love to see some fresh blood in our back 3. Would love it to be Gilroy, but doubt it will be.

awec

molloyjh wrote: »

You don't win a RWC 3 1/2 years out from it. You're talking as if I'm saying we shouldn't be blooding young players, but I'm clearly not saying that at all.

As for us winning with a brand new coach, at that stage he wasn't a brand new coach. He toured with Ireland the summer before and then had them for the build up to the AIs, we then played the AIs and he then had the guys in over Christmas and in the build up to the 6 Nations. Neither Jones nor Noves will have had anything remotely like that time with their squads.

EDIT: Plus Joe had worked with most of the Irish squad at Leinster up to then too. So there was plenty of familiarity there by the time the 2014 6 Nations rolled around.

Schmidt didn't tour with Ireland in Argentina, I am pretty sure Kiss was in charge for that tour.

I wouldn't under estimate the effect a new coach can have immediately. Especially England who will have more motivation than any other side.


Anyway, the worst possible outcome for me this year is playing the same players and not winning it. That would indicate that we have learnt absolutely nothing from the world cup. If we play new guys and don't win then so be it.

b.gud

awec wrote: »

Schmidt didn't tour with Ireland in Argentina, I am pretty sure Kiss was in charge for that tour.

That's the USA tour the year of the lions you're thinking of. Argentina was Schmidts 1st, and so far only, tour with Ireland

awec wrote: »

No, I am not saying we should give up, I am saying we wouldn't be throwing it by playing a few young players because it's very unlikely we'll win it either way.

Maybe you're not directly saying that, but the message you posted certainly seemed to imply that.

To be honest I don't see any huge shift in teams that would imply we have no chance in winning it. England will be more of a threat but it could take Eddie Jones a while to get them playing the way he wants and the way that they are capable of.

molloyjh

awec wrote: »

Schmidt didn't tour with Ireland in Argentina, I am pretty sure Kiss was in charge for that tour.

I wouldn't under estimate the effect a new coach can have immediately. Especially England who will have more motivation than any other side.


Anyway, the worst possible outcome for me this year is playing the same players and not winning it. That would indicate that we have learnt absolutely nothing from the world cup. If we play new guys and don't win then so be it.

Kiss was in charge in the US tour, but Joe went with them, which is all I was saying.

I don't doubt that the new coaches in England and France may help energise the squads, but in this day and age that will only get them so far.

And for me the worst outcome would be losing more games than we win with the same players and no change in game plan. Again, things aren't as simple as you are making them out to be. We could lose the Championship on points difference to Wales for example, who I think are the team to watch out for this season. If that happens it isn't a disaster as long as we vary our game a bit from last year and can see ourselves moving in the right direction.

Joe will develop depth in the squad. He's already done it in a few areas. Our first choice team was never likely to change, but what has changed since Joe has come on board is that we now have a bench that brings real impact. And behind the first choice 23 we have guys capable of filling far more than ever before. Just look at Ruddock against SA last year when SOB was injured and Henry had to pull out at the last minute. Or the fact that now we could be going into the 6 Nations missing our first choice TH and nobody is losing their s***.

It's a work in progress, and the Argentina game showed that a lot, but we've made strides there and are going in the right direction. Ignoring that is doing a massive disservice to the coaches and the squad over the last few years.

EDIT: And by sharing players around the provinces more we'll have a bigger pool of players playing more top level games to choose from. So while on the one hand you are in favour of taking learnings from the RWC, on the other you're resisting the changes that need to be made.

b.gud

3 more years for Sean O'Brien http://www.irishrugby.ie/news/36503.php#.VnllWN_hCEI

Yeah_Right

Just remember that it is possible to win the 6Nations AND blood new players. As I said before, there will be some new faces in the 23 due to injuries. Ireland still has the talent to win it.

sydthebeat

we will need to "blood" new players regardless.....

POC, POM, Ross, Henderson, Payne, Bowe, henshaw (from last years squad) are going to, or at high risk of, missing the competition, so will need to be replaced.

Bazzo

sydthebeat wrote: »

we will need to "blood" new players regardless.....

POC, POM, Ross, Henderson, Payne, Bowe, henshaw (from last years squad) are going to, or at high risk of, missing the competition, so will need to be replaced.

Henshaw will be back before the start of the 6 nations. The prognosis was 6 weeks and the Munster match was on November 28th. I thought Payne was expected back too?

sydthebeat

Bazzo wrote: »

Henshaw will be back before the start of the 6 nations. The prognosis was 6 weeks and the Munster match was on November 28th. I thought Payne was expected back too?

but no ones knows yet what level of fitness or match fitness they will have.
Ireland have a training camp soon and they wont be available, so thats why the likes of McCloosky and O Hallorahan will be brought in regardless of a acute effort to "blood" new players.
I would expect to see JVDF in the wider training group too, along with Stander, possibly Cooney and even Conway.

mfceiling

I'd like to see one or 2 new names in the first 15. Not even because of injury but because they are playing so well that they are actually a better option than the "old reliable" who is there.

Look at henderson at the WC. Some posters bemoaning the fact that he was ahead of toner and that he didn't deserve to be there. He proved his worth imo.

Wales don't seem to have a problem bringing in youngsters who go on to be very good players. I sometimes think if we had George North we would be saying "yeah he's a good kid but he's a bit young and Dave K is more familiar with our set up"

awec

I think if Noel Reid ever gets called up ahead of McCloskey again it'll send me over the edge :pac:

jacothelad

shaungil wrote: »

I heard Trevor Hogan called alan O'Connor as a potential bolter for 6N squad. With henderosn gone I guess Ryan and Foley are next in line to replace POC.

bilston wrote: »

AOC has been great but I'd be pretty surprised if that came to pass!

AOC look to have all the bits to make a top class international second row. He's big, tackles like he means it, has high skill levels and is very good in the l/o and good in the loose...he gave that lovely inside pass foe Marshall to score v. Toulouse......and to cap it all he's a mean, mean fecker. I think it's just a matter of time if he stays fit before he gets noticed now that Kiss is in charge and Clarke is demoted.

CMOTDibbler

Yeah_Right wrote: »

A lot of fans don't seem to realise that current club form has almost nothing to do with a player making the match day 23 for Ireland. Once they make the training squad, it's entirely down to what they do at training that gets them game time. Just look at Marmion and Cave for proof of that.

Spot on. Almost a page of debate and really could be all encapsulated and answered by this.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Spot on. Almost a page of debate and really could be all encapsulated and answered by this.

To be fair though I think McCloskey is the only one who people are suggesting seriously for a place in match day 15/23 based on his club form. Most other names are being suggested for the wider training squad, or at least I assumed that's what people were suggesting.

Stheno

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

To be fair though I think McCloskey is the only one who people are suggesting seriously for a place in match day 15/23 based on his club form. Most other names are being suggested for the wider training squad, or at least I assumed that's what people were suggesting.

I thought the same tbh

molloyjh

mfceiling wrote: »

I'd like to see one or 2 new names in the first 15. Not even because of injury but because they are playing so well that they are actually a better option than the "old reliable" who is there.

Look at henderson at the WC. Some posters bemoaning the fact that he was ahead of toner and that he didn't deserve to be there. He proved his worth imo.

Wales don't seem to have a problem bringing in youngsters who go on to be very good players. I sometimes think if we had George North we would be saying "yeah he's a good kid but he's a bit young and Dave K is more familiar with our set up"

I don't remember anyone saying Hendo didn't deserve to be there. A lot of us were talking a horses for courses selection for particular games, but most recognised what Hendo brought. As much as Hendo proved his worth, so did Toner. Which in many ways proved what those of us were saying re horses for courses.

Bazzo

sydthebeat wrote: »

but no ones knows yet what level of fitness or match fitness they will have.
Ireland have a training camp soon and they wont be available, so thats why the likes of McCloosky and O Hallorahan will be brought in regardless of a acute effort to "blood" new players.
I would expect to see JVDF in the wider training group too, along with Stander, possibly Cooney and even Conway.

I'd be surprised if being out for 6 weeks with a broken bone in his hand had a big effect on Henshaw's fitness, fair enough Payne may take a bit to get back up to speed.

Cooney is out for 3+ months since the start of November with a shoulder problem so will actually be back after Henshaw.

CMOTDibbler

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

To be fair though I think McCloskey is the only one who people are suggesting seriously for a place in match day 15/23 based on his club form. Most other names are being suggested for the wider training squad, or at least I assumed that's what people were suggesting.

Yes, but the same holds true for McCloskey. We really haven't a clue whether he'll be selected or not because we don't know how he'll manage the step up to international level. All evidence (based on provincial form) says he should, but we don't know for sure.

What we do know is that Joe eases players in via training, the bench and then a start against a lower ranked side. The capacity for doing that in a 6N tournament is very limited but he does manage it very well; Henshaw being a case in point.

Who am I missing? Who should be marked as injured/ NA?

Players in alphabetical order so as to avoid arguments :pac:

Players in their 'primary' position, so Fitzgerald goes in as wing even though playing centre etc. (Primary from Ireland perspective before awec complains about Payne)

LooseHead Hooker TightHead Second Row Blindside OpenSide 8 Scrum Half Out Half Wing Centre FB
Buckley Best Archer Foley Diack SOB Heaslip Boss Hanrahan Bowe Henshaw Conway
Cronin Casey Furlong Henderson O'Mahoney Henry Marmion Jackson D.Kearney Marshall O'Halloran
Healy Cronin Moore McCarthy Ruddock Murphy Marshall Keatley Earls McCloskey R.Kearney
Kilcoyne Scannell Ross Muldowney Stander Murray Madigan Fitzgerald Payne
McGrath Sherry O'Connor Reddan Sexton Gilroy
Strauss Ryan Healy
Toner Trimble
Tuohy Zebo


also, the a2z in excel is ****ed, see openside for example

jm08

You could add in
TH: Archer is injured. John Ryan instead.
No 8 is Stander's primary position, not blindside.
Openside: Tommy O'Donnell (due back from injury shortly). van den Flier
Scrumhalf: add in Tomas O'Leary

edit: if you are slotting players in prinary position from an Ireland point of view, Earls should be a centre!