Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread V

Tigerandahalf

What is the story with Mike Ross?

Stheno

Harry FM wrote: »

Then you have no scrum half and two fly halfs on the bench?

Hasn't Madigan covered nine before and wasn't that part of the reason he was in the RWC squad?

Definitely no to Zebo on current form.

The Rape of Lucretia

Stheno wrote: »

Ringrose is still fairly small for a centre, compare him to McCloskey?

This canard keeps cropping up. He is 6'1" and 14St. If this is now small for a centre then I'll eat my hat.

Stheno

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

This canard keeps cropping up. He is 6'1" and 14St. If this is now small for a centre then I'll eat my hat.

McCloskey is 6 foot 4 and 17 stone!

Then you have the freaks like Basteraud and that chap from the Pacific Islands in the RWC hitting 20 stone.

Harry FM

Stheno wrote: »

Ringrose is still fairly small for a centre, compare him to McCloskey?

He's small compared to McCloskey. People like Bennett, C.Smith, Joseph and Kriel proved you don't have to be massive to be an international OC.

Buer

bilston wrote: »

Yeah, just read that. Heaslip is on 80 so he should get there too. Nobody else is really close at the minute.

RK on 67 is an outside bet but his position doesn't lend itself to longevity although his style does. He'd need to be a regular for 4 more years to threaten the 100 which I don't see happening given he turns 30 before the end of the season.

Cian Healy looked a definite to make it (56) but has fallen away in recent times. He'll still potentially get there, though. Conor Murray (42) should make it as I see him being in green until 32 or 33 years old.

I think guys like POM just won't get close due to their injury profiles. He'd need to play 8 internationals a year until he's 34 (now 26) to hit the 100.

Of the young lads, Henshaw and Henderson should make it if they keep in the team.

MB678

I would have questions over Jackson getting on the bench.

Ruan Pienaar is currently on excellent form and he is dictating everything, a couple of times today he was seen bossing Jackson around. How much can we actually tell about Jackson's form while Pienaar is working so hard. We need a vocal 10 that the pack will listen to.

Still signs of poor decision making with his disastrous chip and chase from inside his own 22 and poor kicking. Confidence is an issue and he will be targeted for it. Ranks low on kicking percentage.

Harry FM

Stheno wrote: »

Hasn't Madigan covered nine before and wasn't that part of the reason he was in the RWC squad?

Definitely no to Zebo on current form.

Yes, he has covered nine, but I'd rather have a specialist scrum half coming on then someone who has practiced they're a bit in training.

I think people are being very hard on zebo, but to be fair to him, he's playing on a team for play a boring, one dimensional game plan which doesn't suit him. I think he'd have a lot to offer off the bench with his flare, pace and versatility.

Stheno

Harry FM wrote: »

Yes, he has covered nine, but I'd rather have a specialist scrum half coming on then someone who has practiced they're a bit in training.

I think people are being very hard on zebo, but to be fair to him, he's playing on a team for play a boring, one dimensional game plan which doesn't suit him. I think he'd have a lot to offer off the bench with his flare, pace and versatility.

Personally I would expect that at this stage Zebo should be something of a leader for Munster, he just never seems to have stepped up

He was great a few years ago, but seems to have plateaued

Buer

Jackson was pretty good today. A few lovely kicks to touch and moved his back line well despite being behind a beaten pack.

He should never have taken on the last kick which was outside his range. He should have nailed the earlier miss though. He's the best performing Irish outhalf this season, overall.

The chip and chase was not great but they had to do something. They were being beaten up front and were going to concede a penalty if they couldn't break out from their 22. He couldn't punt it away either. It was a risky play but I wouldn't criticise him for it.

mfceiling

MB678 wrote: »

I would have questions over Jackson getting on the bench.

Ruan Pienaar is currently on excellent form and he is dictating everything, a couple of times today he was seen bossing Jackson around. How much can we actually tell about Jackson's form while Pienaar is working so hard. We need a vocal 10 that the pack will listen to.

Still signs of poor decision making with his disastrous chip and chase from inside his own 22 and poor kicking. Confidence is an issue and he will be targeted for it. Ranks low on kicking percentage.

He has a higher kicking percentage than keatley. Pienaar always works hard and is great for bossing the rest of the team around (not just jackson). He's playing well this season - today was just a day when really 30 players took to the field and not 1 played brilliantly.

Harry FM

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

What is the story with Mike Ross?

He's been a great servant but when he probably won't be around for much longer and you have two talented young THs in Moore and Furlong there's not much point in playing him when you could be giving those younger players some valuable game time.

Harry FM

Stheno wrote: »

Personally I would expect that at this stage Zebo should be something of a leader for Munster, he just never seems to have stepped up

He was great a few years ago, but seems to have plateaued

He's not there to be a leader. Still doesn't back up your idea of having two fly halfs on the bench.

MB678

mfceiling wrote: »

He has a higher kicking percentage than keatley. Pienaar always works hard and is great for bossing the rest of the team around (not just jackson). He's playing well this season - today was just a day when really 30 players took to the field and not 1 played brilliantly.

I wouldn't consider Keatley to be in the running for the squad that's why I haven't mentioned him.

Tigerandahalf

Harry FM wrote: »

He's been a great servant but when he probably won't be around for much longer and you have two talented young THs in Moore and Furlong there's not much point in playing him when you could be giving those younger players some valuable game time.

I would still have Ross in there. He has never let Ire down. Marty Moore looks even more pedestrian. Furlong could be good. Are people forgetting about N White? I would still go with those 2 and let Furlong and Moore get some decent gametime at Leinster.

Be interesting to see how England's scrum goes as Dan Cole has had a poor year. Though Eng appear to have a few young lads coming through.

Stheno

Harry FM wrote: »

He's not there to be a leader. Still doesn't back up your idea of having two fly halfs on the bench.

As in Jackson and Madigan?

Harry FM

MB678 wrote: »

I would have questions over Jackson getting on the bench.

Ruan Pienaar is currently on excellent form and he is dictating everything, a couple of times today he was seen bossing Jackson around. How much can we actually tell about Jackson's form while Pienaar is working so hard. We need a vocal 10 that the pack will listen to.

Still signs of poor decision making with his disastrous chip and chase from inside his own 22 and poor kicking. Confidence is an issue and he will be targeted for it. Ranks low on kicking percentage.

I think that Jackson has really stepped up this season. He's been the form fly half in Ireland this season. It wasn't his best game today but he was playing behind a pack who were on the back foot. I'd give him a chance against Italy.

Harry FM

Stheno wrote: »

As in Jackson and Madigan?

Yes, surely you would have a centre or back 3 they're like Marshall, gilroy, d.kearney or r.kearney. No? Or, dare I say, zebo?

Stheno

Harry FM wrote: »

Yes, surely you would have a centre or back 3 they're like Marshall, gilroy, d.kearney or r.kearney. No?

Marshall yes, but Madigan provides cover for a lot of positions, and Jackson is there to cover ten.

We've seen that weirdness before.

The Rape of Lucretia

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

I would still have Ross in there. He has never let Ire down.

Would you leave him there for life then ? Or how many times would he have to let Ire down before losing his starting spot ?

I dont think he offers enough anymore really, and we have more complete options.

Harry FM

Stheno wrote: »

but Madigan provides cover for a lot of positions

Indeed he does, but he's a specialist 10, who can cover 12 or 15. You already have a specialist 10 in Jackson, no need for a 2nd. If you have somebody like Zebo there, he can comfortably replace the wing positions or FB

The Lost Sheep

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

I would still have Ross in there. He has never let Ire down. Marty Moore looks even more pedestrian. Furlong could be good. Are people forgetting about N White? I would still go with those 2 and let Furlong and Moore get some decent gametime at Leinster.

Be interesting to see how England's scrum goes as Dan Cole has had a poor year. Though Eng appear to have a few young lads coming through.

He may never have let Ireland down but Mike Ross is 36. We have to look at other options. This is the ideal time to do so.

jm08

Stheno wrote: »

Personally I would expect that at this stage Zebo should be something of a leader for Munster, he just never seems to have stepped up

He was great a few years ago, but seems to have plateaued

Joe's coaching has turned him into this. Rob Penney made a comment on twitter to munsterrugby.ie that 'too many brakes being put on Zebo'.

Tox56

jm08 wrote: »

Joe's coaching has turned him into this. Rob Penney made a comment on twitter to munsterrugby.ie that 'too many brakes being put on Zebo'.

You are beyond parody at this point. O'Donnell, Keatley and now Zebo all victims of Joe Schmidt's reign of terror. You completely lose any credibility making this argument when you jump to it literally any time a Munster player who has at some point interacted with Schmidt loses form

thomond2006

jm08 wrote: »

Joe's coaching has turned him into this. Rob Penney made a comment on twitter to munsterrugby.ie that 'too many brakes being put on Zebo'.

For reference folks:

Take a look at @PenzRob's Tweet: https://twitter.com/PenzRob/status/632686313452384256?s=09

The tweet could refer as much to Munster as Ireland...."many" ?

Hagz

That tweet could just as easily be directed at Munster....

aimee1

jm08 wrote: »

Joe's coaching has turned him into this. Rob Penney made a comment on twitter to munsterrugby.ie that 'too many brakes being put on Zebo'.

Well he plays week in week out under foley. Just because penney says something doesn't make it true.

former total

Buer wrote: »

Jackson was pretty good today. A few lovely kicks to touch and moved his back line well despite being behind a beaten pack.

He should never have taken on the last kick which was outside his range. He should have nailed the earlier miss though. He's the best performing Irish outhalf this season, overall.

The chip and chase was not great but they had to do something. They were being beaten up front and were going to concede a penalty if they couldn't break out from their 22. He couldn't punt it away either. It was a risky play but I wouldn't criticise him for it.

I would absolutely criticise Jackson for the chip. It was lunacy. Then after Best won a turnover penalty, Jackson missed touch; only hilarious ineptitude from Amorosino and VDH got him the final kick attempt and he wasn't just short, his line was miles off too.

Playing nicely on the front foot, struggling on the back foot, poor decision making? We could be talking about Madigan...

The back up out half question is still very much a live issue.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

former total wrote: »

I would absolutely criticise Jackson for the chip. It was lunacy. Then after Best won a turnover penalty, Jackson missed touch; only hilarious ineptitude from Amorosino and VDH got him the final kick attempt and he wasn't just short, his line was miles off too.

Playing nicely on the front foot, struggling on the back foot, poor decision making? We could be talking about Madigan...

The back up out half question is still very much a live issue.

The simple fact that Madigan has had very little playing time since the WC should put Jackson in the driving seat there.
However, I think the fitness of Sexton will have an impact on that decision too. Or should. Assuming he's going into the 6 Nations in perfect nick and not carrying any injuries you're looking at the backup 10 only having to close out a couple of games. If there's any doubts over Sexton, any lingering injuries, and you're looking at maybe having to replace him very early or him not being able to play at all, then it's a different issue.

I suppose the fitness situation with other backs could have an impact on that decision too.

jm08

Tox56 wrote: »

You are beyond parody at this point. O'Donnell, Keatley and now Zebo all victims of Joe Schmidt's reign of terror. You completely lose any credibility making this argument when you jump to it literally any time a Munster player who has at some point interacted with Schmidt loses form

Talking about the kettle calling the pot black! It's beyond a joke now thatany hint of criticism of joe Schmidt's coaching philosophy is regarded as a reason to take personal potshots at whoever makes the criticism.

Zebo has changed his game completely to try and fit in with what Schmidt wants from his players. My contention would be that the Schmidt/Ireland style of play doesn't suit him and he would be better off reverting back to his own game, because at the moment he is falling between two stools.

case885

former total wrote:

Playing nicely on the front foot, struggling on the back foot, poor decision making? We could be talking about Madigan...

former total wrote:

The back up out half question is still very much a live issue.

Jackson is getting a lot more game time at out half than Madigan is, I think that should swing it in his favour.

Stheno

case885 wrote: »

Jackson is getting a lot more game time at out half than Madigan is, I think that should swing it in his favour.

Only in a team with a solid kicker, kicking is Jacksons great great weakness imo

jm08

thomond2006 wrote: »

For reference folks:

Take a look at @PenzRob's Tweet: https://twitter.com/PenzRob/status/632686313452384256?s=09

The tweet could refer as much to Munster as Ireland...."many" ?

Hardly - wouldn't Brian Walsh have been his coach at cork con, and Axel had him underage as well. That tweet was in August and in response to a tweet by Munster rugby congratulating zero. Anyway, Penney has criticised Schmidt for his handling of zebo in the past.

I'd imagine the distraction of his future isn't helping his form either.

molloyjh

McCloskey will not start the Wales game. It won't happen. I mean really, what do people expect? They see the guy play very well for Ulster and then just expect him to slot straight into a side he's never played on, surrounded by players he's never played with, under coaches he's never worked with and at a level he's never played at before. Sure what could go wrong!?

The guy is really talented and should be starting for Ireland in the not too distant future if he keeps going as he is, but he will not be dropped straight into the side. Nor should he be. And neither should anyone else. He should be involved in the squad and maybe brought in off the bench at some point. And then come SA when he's that bit more familiar with the set-up he should get a start and go from there. This is top level rugby and Joe won't drop someone into a sink or swim against the odds situation.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Stheno wrote: »

Only in a team with a solid kicker, kicking is Jacksons great great weakness imo

Don't think his kicking is bad enough to negate all the positive aspects of his game in favour of someone who has, so far, played very little rugby post WC.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

molloyjh wrote: »

McCloskey will not start the Wales game. It won't happen. I mean really, what do people expect? They see the guy play very well for Ulster and then just expect him to slot straight into a side he's never played on, surrounded by players he's never played with, under coaches he's never worked with and at a level he's never played at before. Sure what could go wrong!?

The guy is really talented and should be starting for Ireland in the not too distant future if he keeps going as he is, but he will not be dropped straight into the side. Nor should he be. And neither should anyone else. He should be involved in the squad and maybe brought in off the bench at some point. And then come SA when he's that bit more familiar with the set-up he should get a start and go from there. This is top level rugby and Joe won't drop someone into a sink or swim against the odds situation.

Of all the new names being thrown about I think McCloskey is the only one that might actually be realistic as a starter. It very much depends on the fitness of Payne and Henshaw though. If they're back they start.

McCloskey could potentially play alongside Payne and Trimble who he plays with at Ulster so it's not like someone from Connacht coming in and literally having played with none of the other players before.

case885

Stheno wrote:

Only in a team with a solid kicker, kicking is Jacksons great great weakness imo

Jackson is a solid kicker. The fact that Joe started keatley ahead of Madigan last year against Italy shows that kicking percentages isn't the defining factor when picking between two out halves, I think for the bench spot Madigan was getting in due to his versatility rather than his goal kicking.

Stheno

case885 wrote: »

Jackson is a solid kicker. The fact that Joe started keatley ahead of Madigan last year against Italy shows that kicking percentages isn't the defining factor when picking between two out halves, I think for the bench spot Madigan was getting in due to his versatility rather than his goal kicking.

Fair point.

swiwi_

swiwi_ wrote: »

I'd like to see this for the Irish backline in order of 9 to 15

Murray, Sexton, Fitzgerald, McCloskey, Ringrose, Trimble, Henshaw

Bench: Reddan, Jackson, Earls or Zebo

former total wrote: »

Sexton will come back in for Madigan, Payne for Earls and AN Other for Bowe so that's three changes straight away.

After that? Not much change I'd say. Murray, Henshaw and Rob Kearney will keep their places (if fit), Dave K has as good a chance as anyone of playing on the wing and Earls and Fitzgerald are also very likely to be involved in some capacity.

Wholesale changes are extremely unlikely. That will be criticised as conservative etc but the defeat against the Pumas was not about personnel so I don't think Joe will see the need for a clear out.

I simply put what I would like to see. I'm on no crusade to convince others on the forum, and obviously Schmidt takes zero notice of what is written here.

I don't like attacking individual players, and he seems a decent chap, and certainly gives it his all, but Dave Kearney is the Caleb Ralph of Irish wingers, and he was embarrassed against Argentina. So I do think personnel has some part to play in that defeat.

If I was hard-pressed, my selection is probably too inexperienced, it's unlikely my centre pairing would get a run out against Wales, but Italy strikes me as the perfect game for that. If Ireland can't beat Italy, even with a raw centre pairing, there is a problem.

Wales strike me as the most likely side to win this year's 6N, but I expect Eng and Fra to be improved on the RWC (England already by better selecting, France by being out of the PSA slumber). I don't think a conservative Irish team based around kicking halves (given Murray and Sexton are nowhere near their stellar form of 18 to 24 months ago), would do better than mid-table.

Anyway, as an outsider, I'll just watch whom Schmidt selects with interest. His international coaching career is firmly in the balance, a mid-table 6N finish, a 0-3 series loss to SA, and back-to-back defeats to NZ would put a serious dent in his prospects for the Lions/NZ one day if he wishes that, the opposite would obviously get him WR coach of the year etc.

aimee1

jm08 wrote: »

Talking about the kettle calling the pot black! It's beyond a joke now thatany hint of criticism of joe Schmidt's coaching philosophy is regarded as a reason to take personal potshots at whoever makes the criticism.

Zebo has changed his game completely to try and fit in with what Schmidt wants from his players. My contention would be that the Schmidt/Ireland style of play doesn't suit him and he would be better off reverting back to his own game, because at the moment he is falling between two stools.

But your blaming JS for Zebo's poor recent form when he has been coached exclusively by munster since mid october. Other players have played well at their provinces since then so the "its all joe's fault' argument is bull. I would say his poor form for munster is more down to his own mind over his future and munsters backline being a shambles

Andrew trimble has been flying lately. Fitz too. Seems they are capable of switching between club and country requirements quite well. There are others too

Edit - maybe if Saili tried to pass the ball once in a while zebo might get a chance to shine

irishbucsfan

molloyjh wrote: »

McCloskey will not start the Wales game. It won't happen. I mean really, what do people expect? They see the guy play very well for Ulster and then just expect him to slot straight into a side he's never played on, surrounded by players he's never played with, under coaches he's never worked with and at a level he's never played at before. Sure what could go wrong!?

The guy is really talented and should be starting for Ireland in the not too distant future if he keeps going as he is, but he will not be dropped straight into the side. Nor should he be. And neither should anyone else. He should be involved in the squad and maybe brought in off the bench at some point. And then come SA when he's that bit more familiar with the set-up he should get a start and go from there. This is top level rugby and Joe won't drop someone into a sink or swim against the odds situation.

If Payne is injured then I absolutely think McCloskey is the next best option.

As for him slotting into a team that he's never worked with and at a level he's never played at before, Henshaw did a pretty decent job of it and he was playing in a position he'd hardly, if ever, played. In the absence of Payne I'd definitely go with McCloskey.

mfceiling

I don't really understand JM's argument about Zebo playing poorly because of Joe's coaching. Surely when he goes back to Munster he must set the world on fire when he is back under the tutelage of the world renowned Anthony Foley?

The Rape of Lucretia

mfceiling wrote: »

I don't really understand JM's argument about Zebo playing poorly because of Joe's coaching. Surely when he goes back to Munster he must set the world on fire when he is back under the tutelage of the world renowned Anthony Foley?

He was given a very generous chance last year by Joe. And did try to improve and raise himself to Joe's standards, and that is still benefitting him. But while a fine rugby athlete, he is not really and rugby systems implementer. And that is what is needed first in modern top level rugby. He has the frills, but not the core.
A long way down the pecking order at this stage.

Pink Fairy

mfceiling wrote: »

I don't really understand JM's argument about Zebo playing poorly because of Joe's coaching. Surely when he goes back to Munster he must set the world on fire when he is back under the tutelage of the world renowned Anthony Foley?

I think most Munster fans have recognized the change in Zebo over the last few years.
He was a lithe will-o-the-wisp who hung around the peripherary and scored more than his fair share of trys. But, that isn't what was required under JS, so he bulked up, improved his tackling immensely, hits rucks, but now doesn't have that same attacking game as he did 3-4 years ago.

irishbucsfan

Pink Fairy wrote: »

I think most Munster fans have recognized the change in Zebo over the last few years.
He was a lithe will-o-the-wisp who hung around the peripherary and scored more than his fair share of trys. But, that isn't what was required under JS, so he bulked up, improved his tackling immensely, hits rucks, but now doesn't have that same attacking game as he did 3-4 years ago.

Looked like he had a fair amount of attacking ability against Romania.

Is it not possible for a Munster player to lose form without it being someone else's fault?

The Rape of Lucretia

Pink Fairy wrote: »

I think most Munster fans have recognized the change in Zebo over the last few years.
He was a lithe will-o-the-wisp who hung around the peripherary and scored more than his fair share of trys. But, that isn't what was required under JS, so he bulked up, improved his tackling immensely, hits rucks, but now doesn't have that same attacking game as he did 3-4 years ago.

I dont think thats where he lost it. He benefits from an unstructured freeflowing game where he can wander and make it up (and pretty well when he does) as he goes along. Which is fine to a certain level. But to move beyond that you need the structure and the inspiration - and most importantly, the judgement of when to play which. And that he lacks, making him look conflictingly very ordinary the more is expected of him as a team player.
I wouldnt blame Joe for that. He tried his best and has moved on to better prospects.

Pink Fairy

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Looked like he had a fair amount of attacking ability against Romania.

Is it not possible for a Munster player to lose form without it being someone else's fault?

He's not lost form though has he? His game has changed.
You either have the lightning quick wing who stays wide and scored trys, or the bulked up player who is committed to defence but can't be everywhere at once

irishbucsfan

Pink Fairy wrote: »

He's not lost form though has he? His game has changed.
You either have the lightning quick wing who stays wide and scored trys, or the bulked up player who is committed to defence but can't be everywhere at once

I don't believe that for a second. Sounds like a very convenient scapegoat. He looks plenty capable of being an attacking threat to me, just looks to be struggling for form.

Pink Fairy

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I don't believe that for a second. Sounds like a very convenient scapegoat. He looks plenty capable of being an attacking threat to me, just looks to be struggling for form.

I don't think so to be truthful. His game has changed, anybody can see that, he does what he's asked in the Ireland setup, he could be a terrific attacking FB option there, he can fit in on the wing and work his socks off as is required and let the scoring up to others in the side perhaps.
But when he comes back to Munster he plays slightly differently, his game has changed, better for Ireland, not so much for Munsters setup, still and all, he's our record league scorer and almost top in the pro era, not too bad for someone bang out of form

Hagz

It has long been my suspicion that a Joe Schmidt coached side is one that is equipped with very specific and detailed structures/tactics and that is expected to stay loyal to those structures/tactics. I don't think it is an environment in which players are really coached to play instinctively or given a great deal of licence to do so. Looking specifically at Leinster, I think Matt O'Connor tried to foster a more natural playing environment and I think a major part of his struggle was getting the players to make that transition smoothly and quick enough.

It has proved to be an extremely successful coaching style that has undermined opposition time and time again, but I can completely understand how it doesn't play to some player's strengths. I think it's a coaching style that the likes of Fergus McFadden, Gordon D'Arcy, Andrew Trimble etc. really flourish in, but it might not be ideal for a player of Zebo's nature. But an environment that gets the best out of everyone is pretty unrealistic.