Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread V

Mahatma Geansai

case885 wrote: »

I don't think Zebo is contention at the moment anyway, Trimble and earls are best wingers we have fit.

Zebo is the best try-scorer in the country, the fastest player in the country, and has the best passing and kicking skills of any of our outside backs. Its foolish to overlook what he brings to the table.

However, I wouldn't be surprised to see Dave Kearney involved ahead of all of the above. Joe's blindspot of his weaknesses could one of the biggest mysteries in professional rugby.

jm08

case885 wrote: »

I don't think Zebo is contention at the moment anyway, Trimble and earls are best wingers we have fit.

Zebo wasn't in contention for a wing spot for the World Cup, so it's doubtful he will bein contention for a spot on the wing for the 6ns.

While I'd hate to see Zebo leave Munster, for his own good he should do a madigan and get out of Ireland.

aimee1

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

Zebo is the best try-scorer in the country, the fastest player in the country, and has the best passing and kicking skills of any of our outside backs. Its foolish to overlook what he brings to the table.

However, I wouldn't be surprised to see Dave Kearney involved ahead of all of the above. Joe's blindspot of his weaknesses could one of the biggest mysteries in professional rugby.

he doesnt get overlooked, he was in the XV for the November tests 2014, Four out of Five 6n games 2015 and the RWC squad. So he is clearly part of the setup.

Currently Trimble and Earls would be my preferred options on the wings though.

case885

Mahatma Geansai wrote:

Zebo is the best try-scorer in the country, the fastest player in the country, and has the best passing and kicking skills of any of our outside backs. Its foolish to overlook what he brings to the table.

Mahatma Geansai wrote:

However, I wouldn't be surprised to see Dave Kearney involved ahead of all of the above. Joe's blindspot of his weaknesses could one of the biggest mysteries in professional rugby.

If Schmidt still views him as the backup full back then he's a good shout for the bench, other than that he hasn't been playing well enough to start.

irishbucsfan

No way Zebo is the fastest player in the country.

jm08

aimee1 wrote: »

he doesnt get overlooked, he was in the XV for the November tests 2014, Four out of Five 6n games 2015 and the RWC squad. So he is clearly part of the setup.

Currently Trimble and Earls would be my preferred options on the wings though.

He gets dropped as soon as one of rob Kearney, Dave Kearney or Luke Fitzgerald are fit!

Mahatma Geansai

jm08 wrote: »

Zebo wasn't in contention for a wing spot for the World Cup, so it's doubtful he will bein contention for a spot on the wing for the 6ns.

While I'd hate to see Zebo leave Munster, for his own good he should do a madigan and get out of Ireland.

Unfortunately, I'm starting to think you might be right. As long as Joe is in charge of the national team, I can't see Zebo ever getting a fair look-in for the national side. A move to France will do his bank account and trophy cabinet very nicely.

I don't think the Madigan situation is similar though. Madigan is leaving despite being a favourite of the national coach because he isn't good enough to start for him province. Zebo would be doing the exact opposite.

aimee1

jm08 wrote: »

Zebo wasn't in contention for a wing spot for the World Cup, so it's doubtful he will bein contention for a spot on the wing for the 6ns.

While I'd hate to see Zebo leave Munster, for his own good he should do a madigan and get out of Ireland.

i dont think the RWC squad will have a lot of influence on the 6n match day 23s. JS picked a 31 man squad, but he can change week to week in the 6n so way more room to change.

I expect, if all fit and available, to start against Wales ......

Healy, Best, Moore, Toner, Ryan, Ruddock, SOB, Heaslip
Murray, Sexton, Earls, Henshaw, Payne, Trimble, Kearney

errlloyd

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

Zebo is the best try-scorer in the country, the fastest player in the country, and has the best passing and kicking skills of any of our outside backs. Its foolish to overlook what he brings to the table.

It's kind of the same bullet point list you can write about Madigan, gets his kicks, scored tries, great pass. Unfortunately not delivering.

case885

I don't think Healy deserves to be in the matchday squad never mind starting unless his form improves between now and the 6 nations.

OldRio

molloyjh wrote: »

McCloskey will not start the Wales game. It won't happen. I mean really, what do people expect? They see the guy play very well for Ulster and then just expect him to slot straight into a side he's never played on, surrounded by players he's never played with, under coaches he's never worked with and at a level he's never played at before. Sure what could go wrong!?

The guy is really talented and should be starting for Ireland in the not too distant future if he keeps going as he is, but he will not be dropped straight into the side. Nor should he be. And neither should anyone else. He should be involved in the squad and maybe brought in off the bench at some point. And then come SA when he's that bit more familiar with the set-up he should get a start and go from there. This is top level rugby and Joe won't drop someone into a sink or swim against the odds situation.

Unfortunately i agree he will not be picked. Which in my eyes is utterly wrong. This conservative nature is what is wrong with Irish Rugby. Sometimes a talent is to good to ignore. When we have another injury crisis and we will, who slots in?
We need strength in depth. Give the guys in form a chance. Get them in the squad and have a look at them. If they are good enough pick them.
(Rant over)

former total

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

Zebo is the best try-scorer in the country, the fastest player in the country, and has the best passing and kicking skills of any of our outside backs. Its foolish to overlook what he brings to the table.

Whatever about the rest of it, the bolded bit is certainly no longer true, if it ever was.

aimee1

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

Unfortunately, I'm starting to think you might be right. As long as Joe is in charge of the national team, I can't see Zebo ever getting a fair look-in for the national side. A move to France will do his bank account and trophy cabinet very nicely.

Zebo has had plenty of starts in the last 18 months. How is that not fair on him?

3 x AI 2014 Starts
4 x 6n 2015 Starts
3 x RWC warm up appearances
3 x RWC appearances [2 starts]

He has played plenty. 13 Appearances out of 17 games inside a year.

aimee1

case885 wrote: »

I don't think Healy deserves to be in the matchday squad never mind starting unless his form improves between now and the 6 nations.

I agree, I would prefer McGrath to start but I did say its what i expect to see

molloyjh

OldRio wrote: »

Unfortunately i agree he will not be picked. Which in my eyes is utterly wrong. This conservative nature is what is wrong with Irish Rugby. Sometimes a talent is to good to ignore. When we have another injury crisis and we will, who slots in?
We need strength in depth. Give the guys in form a chance. Get them in the squad and have a look at them. If they are good enough pick them.
(Rant over)

But it isn't wrong. That's my point. You can't just believe that a players form for his province will transfer directly into form for his country. It doesn't work that way. A different team with a different way of playing would mean McCloskey would need time to settle in to what is required of him. He has never played outside Sexton before in his life. Which is who he'd be playing outside if he started. And he'd likely be partnering Henshaw, another guy he isn't familiar with at this level. He's never played in a Joe Schmidt side before in his life either, and we heard seasoned pros like POC talk about the level of adjustment required when Joe came in. He's never played international rugby before in his life. You don't just drop a guy into that without giving him time to bed in first. People get far too caught up in provincial form and neglect to consider these really important things time and again.

McCloskey won't start against Wales and should not start against Wales. He should be (and has been) brought into camp. And time should be given to him (like it was to Henshaw) with a view to getting him involved some time this year. How we go from there depends on how he goes in training.

Blackclaret

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

Zebo is the best try-scorer in the country, the fastest player in the country, and has the best passing and kicking skills of any of our outside backs. Its foolish to overlook what he brings to the table

Simon I thought there was a social media blackout from Thomond Park.
Tell me am not alone in holding my breath every time Sexton goes upright into contact, the Connacht game again thought he was KOd, just not comfortable with him starting and in fact believe JJ should be at the minimum in extended squad, Ringrose is a stone of Int centre and seems to bounce of alot of rucks but tackles OK, McCloskey or Fitzgerald but like Fitz on the wing. I reckon England will be emphatic grand slam winners, and after seeing Saracens yesterday could see them unbeaten in all comps. Though it pains me to say.

CMOTDibbler

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

I don't think the Madigan situation is similar though. Madigan is leaving despite being a favourite of the national coach because he isn't good enough to start for him province. Zebo would be doing the exact opposite.

No, they're very similar in Joe's thinking. Madigan was the best bench option because he covers more positions than Jackson. Likewise Zebo but he was up against Fitz for the same spot essentially and Fitz shaded it.

If somebody should feel hard done by at the RWC, it would have to be Fitz btw. Really made a difference when he came on against Argentina, yet up to then had only one start against Canada and 22 minutes of sub appearances between then and the Argentina game.

jm08

aimee1 wrote: »

Zebo has had plenty of starts in the last 18 months. How is that not fair on him?

3 x AI 2014 Starts
4 x 6n 2015 Starts
3 x RWC warm up appearances
3 x RWC appearances [2 starts]

He has played plenty. 13 Appearances out of 17 games inside a year.

That's because of injuries to Dave Kearney, Andre Trimble, Tommy bowe , rob Kearney,Keith earls and Luke Fitzgerald.

Zebo's sum total of any game time on the left wing for the World Cup was as a substitute when Andrew Trimble got injured in the first warm-up game. Other than that he was only played because rob Kearney was injured.

jm08

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

No, they're very similar in Joe's thinking. Madigan was the best bench option because he covers more positions than Jackson. Likewise Zebo but he was up against Fitz for the same spot essentially and Fitz shaded it.

If somebody should feel hard done by at the RWC, it would have to be Fitz btw. Really made a difference when he came on against Argentina, yet up to then had only one start against Canada and 22 minutes of sub appearances between then and the Argentina game.

Zebo was up against Felix Jones for cover for rob Kearney. He was not in contention for a spot on the wing as he never got a start there even in the warm ups.

sydthebeat

If zebo was ripping up trees ye might have a strong argument, however your saying that he had changed his game to suit ireland, and thus isn't playing very well..... But at the same time bemoaning the fact he isn't an automatic starter on the Irish team.

Talk about having cake and eating it too.

Has it every occurred to you that he might just not be that good?

CMOTDibbler

jm08 wrote: »

That's because of injuries to Dave Kearney, Andre Trimble, Tommy bowe , rob Kearney,Keith earls and Luke Fitzgerald.

Zebo's sum total of any game time on the left wing for the World Cup was as a substitute when Andrew Trimble got injured in the first warm-up game. Other than that he was only played because rob Kearney was injured.

Are they not opportunities? Is a start in an Ireland shirt not a chance to prove yourself? Whatever the position; and there are many Munster fans saying that Zebo is an excellent full back. Do you not share that opinion?

aimee1

jm08 wrote: »

That's because of injuries to Dave Kearney, Andre Trimble, Tommy bowe , rob Kearney,Keith earls and Luke Fitzgerald.

Zebo's sum total of any game time on the left wing for the World Cup was as a substitute when Andrew Trimble got injured in the first warm-up game. Other than that he was only played because rob Kearney was injured.

injuries are part and parcel of the game though. More then ever its a squad game and Zebo has had plenty of gametime under JS. In a limited numbers squad players were required to play in more then one position.

He has played more then most of the backs used in the last 18 months but he hasnt been given a fair go? Nonsense argument

jm08

sydthebeat wrote: »

If zebo was ripping up trees ye might have a strong argument, however your saying that he had changed his game to suit ireland, and thus isn't playing very well..... But at the same time bemoaning the fact he isn't an automatic starter on the Irish team.

Talk about having cake and eating it too.

Has it every occurred to you that he might just not be that good?

I think he is a better winger than both Luke Fitzgerald and Dave kearney. He just did not get an opportunity to compete for a spot on the wing for the World Cup? Can you explain why that was the case?

He was punished unfairly for Ireland's poor performance against Wales (only one dropped completely out of the 23 having started every game up to that). That must hurt.

jm08

aimee1 wrote: »

injuries are part and parcel of the game though. More then ever its a squad game and Zebo has had plenty of gametime under JS. In a limited numbers squad players were required to play in more then one position.

He has played more then most of the backs used in the last 18 months but he hasnt been given a fair go? Nonsense argument

I think Zebo has been dropped for inferior wingers like d Kearney & Luke Fitzgerald.

Furthermore, he was not given an opportunity to compete for a place in his primary position on the left wing for the World Cup.

aimee1

jm08 wrote: »

I think Zebo has been dropped for inferior wingers like d Kearney & Luke Fitzgerald.

Furthermore, he was not given an opportunity to compete for a place in his primary position on the left wing for the World Cup.

Zebo was used as a full back cover in the RWC squad, that is clear.

With a limit on the squad it was a necessity. 13 Appearance, including 9 [i think] starts suggests he is well regarded within the Irish setup over the last 18 months.

Bridge93

shootermacg wrote: »

There's one thing coming in off your wing. When you find yourself on the other wing. while "coming in off your wing" you need to be fitted for a GPS!

Why not play with 2 right wingers? At least that way the team knows there'll be no one there and stick a front row out there to cover... which, come to think of it actually happened recently.

I can tell you, having played senior cup and a small bit of underage province stuff as a winger, that you do not know what a winger is meant to do. Zebo going looking is EXACTLY what a winger is meant to do. If he stuck out on his own wing not getting involved I would want him dropped. Earls does the same thing. As does every other winger worth their wage

aimee1

jm08 wrote: »

I think he is a better winger than both Luke Fitzgerald and Dave kearney. He just did not get an opportunity to compete for a spot on the wing for the World Cup? Can you explain why that was the case?

The choice of the coach.

Because it was a case of Jones or Zebo and in a limited squad a left wing/Full Back is better then a full back. Its a case of covering as many positions as possible within those limits. Zebo is the winger who has played the most as full back for province.

CMOTDibbler

jm08 wrote: »

I think Zebo has been dropped for inferior wingers like d Kearney & Luke Fitzgerald.

Furthermore, he was not given an opportunity to compete for a place in his primary position on the left wing for the World Cup.

In the same period that Zebo had 11 starts and 2 sub appearances for Ireland, Luke Fitz had 4 +3 and Dave Kearney had 12 + 2.

That's from the 2014 AIs until now.

He's had his opportunities and he's had plenty of them. Dropped is not a word I'd use to describe 11 starts in 13 months, regardless of the position he started in. Other players have had to shift position (Luke Fitz being a case in point) and made an impact there. What's Zebo's problem?

jm08

aimee1 wrote: »

Zebo was used as a full back cover in the RWC squad, that is clear.

With a limit on the squad it was a necessity. 13 Appearance, including 9 [i think] starts suggests he is well regarded within the Irish setup over the last 18 months.

I think he is the only back dropped when fit (though I think Keith earls was dropped from the wing for Dave Kearney and only made the 23 because of Payne's injury).

aimee1

jm08 wrote: »

I think he is the only back dropped when fit (though I think Keith earls was dropped from the wing for Dave Kearney and only made the 23 because of Payne's injury).

but thats guesswork for the sake of having a whinge. Payne went home injured, so we will never know how it would have worked out

CMOTDibbler

jm08 wrote: »

I think he is the only back dropped when fit (though I think Keith earls was dropped from the wing for Dave Kearney and only made the 23 because of Payne's injury).

So just to recap. Zebo should feel hard done by Joe Schmidt because in 3 Autumn Internationals, 5 6N matches and 5 RWC matches, he didn't feature in 3 of them.

Why has this travesty been overlooked until now?

The Pheasant2

Could it be time for the resurrection of the annual Zebo thread?

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

The Pheasant2 wrote: »

Could it be time for the resurrection of the annual Zebo thread?

The sooner he heads off to France the better. :eek:

molloyjh

The Pheasant2 wrote: »

Could it be time for the resurrection of the annual Zebo thread?

Isn't that what this is!?

OldRio

molloyjh wrote: »

But it isn't wrong. That's my point. You can't just believe that a players form for his province will transfer directly into form for his country. It doesn't work that way. A different team with a different way of playing would mean McCloskey would need time to settle in to what is required of him. He has never played outside Sexton before in his life. Which is who he'd be playing outside if he started. And he'd likely be partnering Henshaw, another guy he isn't familiar with at this level. He's never played in a Joe Schmidt side before in his life either, and we heard seasoned pros like POC talk about the level of adjustment required when Joe came in. He's never played international rugby before in his life. You don't just drop a guy into that without giving him time to bed in first. People get far too caught up in provincial form and neglect to consider these really important things time and again.

McCloskey won't start against Wales and should not start against Wales. He should be (and has been) brought into camp. And time should be given to him (like it was to Henshaw) with a view to getting him involved some time this year. How we go from there depends on how he goes in training.

We agree to disagree. Hopefully the lad will get a chance to start in some of the six nations games. (Hopefully not because of injury)
Anyway thought it best to discuss this than the annual 'Z' debate. Which is raging around us.

DGRulz

I'd love to know what percentage of the five Ireland threads have been filled up with the annual Zebo debate. :P

Journeyman_1

DGRulz wrote: »

I'd love to know what percentage of the five Ireland threads have been filled up with the annual Zebo debate. :P

If boards would open up the comment Table in their database, it would be pretty easy to figure out

sydthebeat

DGRulz wrote: »

I'd love to know what percentage of the five Ireland threads have been filled up with the annual Zebo debate. :P

Let's not forget who started this shambles today with their ridiculous zebo comments.

Same old suspect.....

jm08

aimee1 wrote: »

but thats guesswork for the sake of having a whinge. Payne went home injured, so we will never know how it would have worked out

Irfu did not announce that Payne was out of the World Cup until the Friday before Ireland played France - everyone expected him to be fit for France. Dave Kearney, not Keith earls had been training on the wing from all the usual sources in prep for the French game.

jm08

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

So just to recap. Zebo should feel hard done by Joe Schmidt because in 3 Autumn Internationals, 5 6N matches and 5 RWC matches, he didn't feature in 3 of them.

Why has this travesty been overlooked until now?

How many games has Schmidt been in charge for then?

jm08

sydthebeat wrote: »

Let's not forget who started this shambles today with their ridiculous zebo comments.

Same old suspect.....

While Zebo remains a first choice winger for his club, there should be questions asked as to why he is not given an opportunity to compete for a position on the wing and why inferior wingers (imo) are selected ahead of him particularly when they fail to deliver.

Mahatma Geansai

Lets all just agree that, provided there is no plague casting down all other fit Irish wingers, Dave Kearney should never be near an Irish jersey again.

CMOTDibbler

jm08 wrote: »

How many games has Schmidt been in charge for then?

All of the ones I referred to.

sydthebeat

jm08 wrote: »

sydthebeat wrote: »

Let's not forget who started this shambles today with their ridiculous zebo comments.

Same old suspect.....

While Zebo remains a first choice winger for his club, there should be questions asked as to why he is not given an opportunity to compete for a position on the wing and why inferior wingers (imo) are selected ahead of him particularly when they fail to deliver.

But your opinion is so obviously and clearly biased that you can't see any other scenario than zebo being slighted.
Especially the scenario that zebo isn't as good as you think.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

I'd have Craig Gilroy over Zebo in the Irish squad.

CMOTDibbler

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

Lets all just agree that, provided there is no plague casting down all other fit Irish wingers, Dave Kearney should never be near an Irish jersey again.

Why? What gives us the right to put limits on a player's international career? We're not exactly burgeoned with international experience on the wing. Tommy Bowe is coming to the end of his career, Trimble likewise. Craig Gilroy, Dave Kearney, Simon Zebo, Luke FitzGerald, Keith Earls and McFadden are the only ones I can think of with a few years still in them which is only six. Outside of Matt Healy, I'm struggling to come up with any future prospects currently without a cap.

Knock out any two or three of the above through form and add in a couple of injuries and where are we?

aimee1

jm08 wrote: »

Irfu did not announce that Payne was out of the World Cup until the Friday before Ireland played France - everyone expected him to be fit for France. Dave Kearney, not Keith earls had been training on the wing from all the usual sources in prep for the French game.

I would suspect thats because they knew Payne was unlikely to be available and they had Earls on standby to play centre. They could have been making out Payne would be back to give nothing away to france until necessary

aimee1

jm08 wrote: »

While Zebo remains a first choice winger for his club, there should be questions asked as to why he is not given an opportunity to compete for a position on the wing and why inferior wingers (imo) are selected ahead of him particularly when they fail to deliver.

because JS is the [highly successful] coach who picks the team. It is his livelihood so he has to make the decisions based on the information he has available and he doesnt see DK/Fitz as inferior players in his gameplan

Mahatma Geansai

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

Lets all just agree that, provided there is no plague casting down all other fit Irish wingers, Dave Kearney should never be near an Irish jersey again.

Same thing about Earls in center

Mahatma Geansai

Deleted User wrote: »

Same thing about Earls in center

It really isn't. Earls is a brilliant rugby player who regularly excels at international and provincial level. He's a very good centre who was asked to play a nonsensical crash-ball game which doesn't suit his stature. He was one of our backs of the RWC and is the countries best ever try-scorer on the biggest stage of them all.

Dave Kearney is Rob Kearney's brother and he apparently excels in training. He was poor defensively for three of Argentina's tries in our embarrassing RWC quarter-final knockout.