Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread V

The Rape of Lucretia

jm08 wrote: »

While Zebo remains a first choice winger for his club, there should be questions asked as to why he is not given an opportunity to compete for a position on the wing and why inferior wingers (imo) are selected ahead of him particularly when they fail to deliver.

Not given an opportunity !??!!!!?

Zeebs has been given oodles of opportunity. Kidney era. AIs. Consistent run in the 6N after he was given improvement targets by Joe who did involve him and gave him every chance to make the grade. Versatility exposure at fullback to show overall squad worth.

The guy, or his supporter, surely cannot complain on this point, if it is looked at with any degree of reason and balanced perspective ?

Mahatma Geansai

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

Earls is a brilliant rugby player.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

It really isn't. Earls is a brilliant rugby player who regularly excels at international and provincial level. He's a very good centre who was asked to play a nonsensical crash-ball game which doesn't suit his stature. He was one of our backs of the RWC and is the countries best ever try-scorer on the biggest stage of them all.

How many of Earls tries were him basically catching the ball and running a few yards to score, the work having been done elsewhere?

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Deleted User wrote: »

Anyone got a gif of him trying to tackle the Italian guy who was standing still and bouncing off?

The Rape of Lucretia

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

Lets all just agree that, provided there is no plague casting down all other fit Irish wingers, Dave Kearney should never be near an Irish jersey again.

This is indeed agreeable to all I think. But with the distinction that it is not inconceivable that he should be deserving of a starting slot. That is possible.
But is he of the level of international wing that we aspire to for our Grand Slam and World Cup contending level team. Clearly he is not that. But will fill in with honest endevour when called upon, without the nation feeling a game is a lost cause because he must start.

The Rape of Lucretia

Deleted User wrote: »

Acchhhh. Unfair. They have all had a howler somewhere along the line.

CatFromHue

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

Lets all just agree that, provided there is no plague casting down all other fit Irish wingers, Dave Kearney should never be near an Irish jersey again.

Out of the interpro's over the Christmas period only Rory Scholes had better stats than him



By my count DK has only had 1 bad game for Ireland and plenty of good ones. If 1 bad game rules you out we'd have no options on the wing for Ireland.

freyners

I was quite impressed by kearney friday. He's a brilliant winger

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

The problem we have with wingers is that we have a lot of okay wingers, all of a similar standard. They're all capable of doing the same thing on their day and they're all capable of having a mare on any given day. None of them are world class and none of them are likely to make or break a game for us. Of all the guys who have played on the wing recently for Ireland Trimble is the only one I would think should be a first choice on game day. Most of the rest are interchangeable.

aimee1

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

It really isn't. Earls is a brilliant rugby player who regularly excels at international and provincial level. He's a very good centre who was asked to play a nonsensical crash-ball game which doesn't suit his stature. He was one of our backs of the RWC and is the countries best ever try-scorer on the biggest stage of them all.

Dave Kearney is Rob Kearney's brother and he apparently excels in training. He was poor defensively for three of Argentina's tries in our embarrassing RWC quarter-final knockout.

Earls is a brilliant winger, our best left wing option, his, by far best position, and where he should be playing.

awec

Earls is a brilliant winger and a poor centre.

Dave Kearney is an average player who should be holding tackle bags except if there is an injury crisis.

The Rape of Lucretia

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Acchhhh. Unfair. They have all had a howler somewhere along the line.

https://streamable.com/d76r

Clegg

Earls isn't a very good centre. It's not a controversial opinion.

CurryFlavoured

With all the centre options coming through he shouldn't see another minute there in green. Hes a good winger, it should be wing or nothing.

former total

awec wrote: »

Dave Kearney is an average player who should be holding tackle bags except if there is an injury crisis.

In fairness, no, he's not. His selection ahead of "better" wingers at the RWC was based on form. If the other guys were far better options than DK, they concealed it well.

He has been consistently good for Ireland. He will be in the mix for 6N.

jm08

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

All of the ones I referred to.

+ another 14 when one of joe's boys were fit when he was ignored.

MB678

I recently read an interview with Gilroy and he mentioned about improving his defence and tackling. Great player going forward but I don't think his style fits into the national team.

Our wings have to be good in defence. D. Kearney forced France to forward pass 2 years back, whistle blew, we won the 6N. Kearney starting to hit form again after a recent dip.
Trimble is a fantastic defensive player.

Bowe and Zebo were very very poor defensively in the WC.

Just my 2c. Don't mean to flog the Zebo topic.

P.S any sign of that extended training squad?

RedemptionZ

All of the wings from the WC squad lack a lot of pace. Hickey is probably the last speedster produced and that was a long time ago. Pace isn't everything but it helps.

Dave Kearney is the definition of an average winger. He's not great at anything but he's solid. If he's starting it means there's either an injury crisis or a serious lack of talent with the position. I'd be inclined to lean towards the latter. Seems like most wings in Ireland started off as either fullback or centre and couldn't get their place there so moved to wing.

The Rape of Lucretia

Deleted User wrote: »

https://streamable.com/d76r

Still and all.

Certainly, he isnt a centre. And maybe less interesting to us now on the wing given the type of game Joe is playing.
But I would still maintain he has good acceleration, speed for 20 yards, and a good (verging on selfish, but that is an asset in the right situation) nose for the try line. When we had BOD/Darce line breaking capability and played to it with both ROG and Jonny, he was a good man to have on the outside to finish the job. Today we dont have that, so his usefulness even on the wing is reduced. But not to be dismissed yet.

jm08

Clegg wrote: »

Earls isn't a very good centre. It's not a controversial opinion.

Schmidt still regards him as a much better option than cave and Fitz which is contrary to all opinion here!

Pink Fairy

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

I'd have Craig Gilroy over Zebo in the Irish squad.

But JS wouldn't, and that's probably part of the issue, somebody else said their face didn't fit under the regime, Gilroy could say the same thing perhaps

The Rape of Lucretia

RedemptionZ wrote: »

All of the wings from the WC squad lack a lot of pace. Hickey is probably the last speedster produced and that was a long time ago.

Which also shows how taking your measure from really fast wingers is just dreaming. Who have we had even before Hickey ? M Kiernan, Geogheghan, O'Reilly ?
4 quick guys in 60 years.

The Rape of Lucretia

jm08 wrote: »

Schmidt still regards him as a much better option than cave and Fitz which is contrary to all opinion here!

Schmidt knows what he is doing you say ?
He is probably right on Z as well then ?

irishbucsfan

Chalk me up as a Dave Kearney fan. I think he's the best long term option Leinster have as a starting winger.

jm08

aimee1 wrote: »

Earls is a brilliant winger, our best left wing option, his, by far best position, and where he should be playing.

He hardly ever plays on the left wing - how do you come to that conclusion?

jm08

former total wrote: »

In fairness, no, he's not. His selection ahead of "better" wingers at the RWC was based on form. If the other guys were far better options than DK, they concealed it well.

He has been consistently good for Ireland. He will be in the mix for 6N.

How do you know he was better on the wing than Zebo who didn't get an opportunity to play there?

bilston

MB678 wrote: »

P.S any sign of that extended training squad?

You would normally be waiting until after Rd 6 of the CC, but I think the Champions Cup Rds 5 and 6 are a week later than usual so it might be announced a bit earlier. Either way it will be the second half of January.

jm08

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Schmidt knows what he is doing you say ?
He is probably right on Z as well then ?

I made the point that not everyone, as claimed here, thinks that earls is a poor centre. Schmidt is an obvious example of that thinking.

CMOTDibbler

jm08 wrote: »

I made the point that not everyone, as claimed here, thinks that earls is a poor centre. Schmidt is an obvious example of that thinking.

bilston

Non WC squad players that I'd be expecting to be named in the 6Ns squad are...

James Cronin, Marty Moore, Mike McCarthy, Ultan Dillane, Josh Van Der Flier, CJ Stander, Jack O'Donoghue, Tommy O'Donnell, Luke McGrath, Kieron Marmion, Stuart McCloskey, Garry Ringrose, Luke Marshall and Andrew Trimble.

Anyone else in with a shout?

CMOTDibbler

bilston wrote: »

Non WC squad players that I'd be expecting to be named in the 6Ns squad are...

James Cronin, Marty Moore, Mike McCarthy, Ultan Dillane, Josh Van Der Flier, CJ Stander, Jack O'Donoghue, Tommy O'Donnell, Luke McGrath, Kieron Marmion, Stuart McCloskey, Garry Ringrose, Luke Marshall and Andrew Trimble.

Anyone else in with a shout?

Matt Healy nd Tiernan O'Halloran perhaps.

Edit: Jack Conan if he's fit. It would be a travesty in my eyes if CJ Stander was to get a shot and Jack Conan was left out.

Pink Fairy

bilston wrote: »

Non WC squad players that I'd be expecting to be named in the 6Ns squad are...

James Cronin, Marty Moore, Mike McCarthy, Ultan Dillane, Josh Van Der Flier, CJ Stander, Jack O'Donoghue, Tommy O'Donnell, Luke McGrath, Kieron Marmion, Stuart McCloskey, Garry Ringrose, Luke Marshall and Andrew Trimble.

Anyone else in with a shout?

Ian Keatley

phog

Deleted User wrote: »

Juvenile at best.

Anyone can dig up a gif to show great players having howlers

jm08

RedemptionZ wrote: »

All of the wings from the WC squad lack a lot of pace. Hickey is probably the last speedster produced and that was a long time ago. Pace isn't everything but it helps.

Dave Kearney is the definition of an average winger. He's not great at anything but he's solid. If he's starting it means there's either an injury crisis or a serious lack of talent with the position. I'd be inclined to lean towards the latter. Seems like most wings in Ireland started off as either fullback or centre and couldn't get their place there so moved to wing.

Schmidt likes wingers who play like flankers. I bet Julian savea would not make a Joe team!

padser

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

How many of Earls tries were him basically catching the ball and running a few yards to score, the work having been done elsewhere?

Good point.

It's well known that it's a classic sign of a poor winger to be consistently in a position to finish off moves.

If only he could disimprove that aspect of his game so that he had a couple more players to beat when he gets the ball.

Seriously, I'm all on for legimate criticism of players, and that's not it.

CMOTDibbler

jm08 wrote: »

Schmidt likes wingers who play like flankers. I bet Julian savea would not make a Joe team!

You've money to burn

jm08

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Nice attempt at trying to cover your ass.

The Rape of Lucretia

bilston wrote: »

Non WC squad players that I'd be expecting to be named in the 6Ns squad are...

James Cronin, Marty Moore, Mike McCarthy, Ultan Dillane, Josh Van Der Flier, CJ Stander, Jack O'Donoghue, Tommy O'Donnell, Luke McGrath, Kieron Marmion, Stuart McCloskey, Garry Ringrose, Luke Marshall and Andrew Trimble.

Anyone else in with a shout?

Ruddock. More likely than many of the above to get game time.

bilston

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Ruddock. More likely than many of the above to get game time.

Well I was working on the bssis that Ruddock was part of the WC squad even though he wasn't to begin with. But yes he will definitely be named.

CMOTDibbler

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Ruddock. More likely than many of the above to get game time.

Ruddock did get a call up to the RWC though, so he's a given based on the question.

Pink Fairy

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Ruddock. More likely than many of the above to get game time.

Was there a quick edit here?

The Rape of Lucretia

Pink Fairy wrote: »

Was there a quick edit here?

?

bilston

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Matt Healy nd Tiernan O'Halloran perhaps.

Edit: Jack Conan if he's fit. It would be a travesty in my eyes if CJ Stander was to get a shot and Jack Conan was left out.

Stander will definitely be included. Conan might be, but like it or not I'm pretty sure Stander will be ahead of him in the pecking order.

shootermacg

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

It would be a travesty in my eyes if CJ Stander was to get a shot and Jack Conan was left out.

You could say the same for any import, but say what you will the man is one of the best ball carriers in the game at the minute, puts his head where you wouldn't put your feet and has a work-rate that's pretty much only matched by Best and O'Brien.

I would say the man has as good as engine of any Irish forward, if not better in most circumstances.

If he brings that form into the Ireland camp he's got to have a place.

former total

Given no Wolfhounds game, the squad will probably only be 30-35 players which means no room for many of the names being thrown around.

Assume 35;
McGrath Healy Kilcoyne
Best Strauss Cronin
Ross Moore Furlong White
Toner Ryan McCarthy AN Other
Heaslip SOB Stander Ruddock Henry Murphy
Murray Reddan Marmion
Sexton Madigan Jackson
Henshaw Payne McCloskey
Earls Zebo Fitz Dave Rob Trimble

That's a realistic 35 with only three uncapped players. There might be one or two more, but not many and certainly not the 10-15 being talked about here.

I'll be really interested to see who gets called up at second row.

jm08

jm08 wrote: »

when one of joe's boys were fit

Says it all really.

AbusesToilets

Any thoughts on players not in the backline? For me, Moore has to start, he's been in excellent form of late and offers so much more than Ross. He was demolishing the Toulon scrum in the last game, to the point where Armitage was practically playing LH trying to combat him.

Ruddock has to be accomodated, he is back in top form and arguably the most powerful backrow playing at the moment.

Having mostly watched Leinster's games this season, I can't comment much on other provincial players, but I would like to see some of the Ulster backs brought into camp, centres especially. Marmion has to be close to a matchday squad too, Reddan should be put out to pasture at this stage.

jm08

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

How many of Earls tries were him basically catching the ball and running a few yards to score, the work having been done elsewhere?

Like in the pro12 final in 2011 when from a cross field kick earls beat BOD, Nacewa and Rob Kearney to score a try:D

MB678

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Any thoughts on players not in the backline? For me, Moore has to start, he's been in excellent form of late and offers so much more than Ross. He was demolishing the Toulon scrum in the last game, to the point where Armitage was practically playing LH trying to combat him.

Ruddock has to be accomodated, he is back in top form and arguably the most powerful backrow playing at the moment.

Having mostly watched Leinster's games this season, I can't comment much on other provincial players, but I would like to see some of the Ulster backs brought into camp, centres especially. Marmion has to be close to a matchday squad too, Reddan should be put out to pasture at this stage.

Agreed on Moore. Fantastic scrummager and makes his tackles.

Ruddock was called into the WC straight away when he became fit (yes I know we lost a lot of players and somebody needed to be called in). He has captained Leinster a couple of times this season too. Strong and a lineout option. He will start.

jm08

MB678 wrote: »

Agreed on Moore. Fantastic scrummager and makes his tackles.

Ruddock was called into the WC straight away when he became fit (yes I know we lost a lot of players and somebody needed to be called in). He has captained Leinster a couple of times this season too. Strong and a lineout option. He will start.

I think it will depend on Healy who has terrible form but is needed for his ball carrying. If Healy is dropped Stander will need to start.

With Ruddock v stander otherwise, Stander on the bench as he can cover 2 positions.