Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread V

aimee1

Hagz wrote: »

It's pretty difficult to argue that.
If you judge success by silverware, they haven't.
If you judge success by win rate, they haven't.
If you judge success by grandslams on the other hand...

i'd take a 6n [slam or no slam] over any win over the tri-nations sides in the SH. A one off win means zilch in the grand scheme of things.

Trophies are definitive. JS 2-1 Kidney.

awec

molloyjh wrote: »

It's not about Joe being infallible. It's about Joe knowing more than you and I combined about the sport. And I'm not talking about agreeing 100% with everything Joe does either. As I said I was talking about when there's a fairly substantial and fundamental difference in opinion. If you don't think DK is up to it at all and can't see why he's getting selected and the most successful coach we've ever had in Ireland is selecting him then the chances are you're missing something. Not the coach.

Every player is part of a whole and players are getting selected based on how they fit the way we are trying to play and how they compliment or combo with those around them. It isn't as simple as "a wingers job is X", full stop and end of story. Real life is more complicated than that. And while you might not agree with Joe is it not a bit daft to suggest he doesn't know what he is doing? Because by saying he selects guys not up to it would suggest he doesn't know what he is doing.

I haven't said he doesn't know what he is doing. Nobody else has either.

DK can do a job. Schmidt selects him because he can do a job. That has never been disputed, nobody has said he is picked for the craic. He is just not someone you want to see playing often, he is just not at that standard.

If Ireland have a full set of wingers to pick from for the 6N does DK get in the team? Absolutely no way. That is the point being made here.

Ireland play pretty boring rugby. Dave Kearney is a boring player. We should want to play more exciting rugby and as I said before, I think we have the players capable of doing so. Winning games and playing exciting rugby are not two mutually exclusive things despite what you would read on here sometimes.

awec

molloyjh wrote: »

You used the word infallible??????

I meant none of the people giving out about the criticism have said that exact word, but that is the general gist you get on here whenever you dare ask any question about the coach or the team.

Schmidt cannot be questioned because we won two six nations in a row.

jm08

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Maybe he's thinking of the one Trimble stopped?

We're talking about attack and finishing here, not defence. Andrew is very good for a bone crunching tackle.

jm08

aimee1 wrote: »

i'd take a 6n [slam or no slam] over any win over the tri-nations sides in the SH. A one off win means zilch in the grand scheme of things.

Trophies are definitive. JS 2-1 Kidney.

That's like claiming topping the league is a better achievement than winning the playoffs. Ie you are making excuses for failing at the last hurdle.

aimee1

jm08 wrote: »

We're talking about attack and finishing here, not defence. Andrew is very good for a bone crunching tackle.

Trimble seemed to know how to attack and finish in 2014 when he scored a couple of tries.

awec

This isn't descending into Schmidt vs Kidney, there's no way that ends well.

The Rape of Lucretia

awec wrote: »

Winning games and playing exciting rugby are not two mutually exclusive things despite what you would read on here sometimes.

Not mutually exclusive, agreed. But unrelated. We want winning rugby first - if that should be exciting, then fine, but if not, then exciting is an irrelevancy.

Not to keep the world spinning on a Zebo axis, but this is the mistake I think many of his advocates make. Sure, he can be exciting - give him the ball lots of times, in space, give him a free role to do as he see fits, and he will indeed be exciting and give a few clips to admire on youtube. But that doesnt mean he is the most effective winger. The most effective winger could be the dullest winger as far as entertainment and wow factor goes. But for me, that means he should be played - not the player who brings 'excitement'. I will get all the excitement I need from Ireland winning big games and championships.

Hagz

jm08 wrote: »

That's like claiming topping the league is a better achievement than winning the playoffs. Ie you are making excuses for failing at the last hurdle.

No not really. A Grand Slam isn't akin to winning the playoffs. Winning the 6 nations is akin to winning the playoffs. A Grand Slam is akin to winning the Rugby Champions Cup without losing any of your pool games.

shootermacg

jm08 wrote: »

:eek:h

A top international winger would have scored that try last night that Trimble failed to do (both earls and Zebo for example).

TBF he had the gas to spare, and he might have had a case for being impeded.

aimee1

jm08 wrote: »

That's like claiming topping the league is a better achievement than winning the playoffs. Ie you are making excuses for failing at the last hurdle.

the reward is the same no matter how you finish top. A 6n on PD is still a 6n. Wales didnt seem too bothered in 2013 that they only won on PD ahead of england

The Rape of Lucretia

jm08 wrote: »

That's like claiming topping the league is a better achievement than winning the playoffs. Ie you are making excuses for failing at the last hurdle.

No way. A win over a tri nations side is just that. A one off. Interesting, but ultimately worthless. Its not a playoff for the six nations champ. Its not a last hurdle to anything.
The game against the Argentine was a hurdle. And we failed at it. But Rome wasnt built in a day. A grand slam or two between here and the next WC, and a win in the WC and Joe will ascend to rugby heaven with our only other deity, BOD.

The Rape of Lucretia

aimee1 wrote: »

the reward is the same no matter how you finish top. A 6n on PD is still a 6n. Wales didnt seem too bothered in 2013 that they only won on PD ahead of england

Ah its not really. Yes, the win is valid. But is a bit like winning a football world cup on penalties - just a tad better than flipping a coin for it. Still meritorious. And better than losing it on point difference. But no match for a G Slam.

AbusesToilets

There is scope to playing exciting rugby and be successful. Other teams clearly manage, why should Ireland be content playing a reductive style of game plan when we have players who are capable of a lot more?

Saying Schmidt doesn't have enough time with the players to develop such a style ignores all the other teams that manage to do so, with similar coaching time.

jm08

aimee1 wrote: »

Trimble seemed to know how to attack and finish in 2014 when he scored a couple of tries.

Trimble 58 caps, 16 tries
Bowe 67 caps, 30 tries

aimee1

jm08 wrote: »

Trimble 58 caps, 16 tries
Bowe 67 caps, 30 tries

is there a point to this? Our best winger, Bowe was injured in 2014. Trimble stepped up. Scored a few tries and had a hand in a few others

jm08

aimee1 wrote: »

the reward is the same no matter how you finish top. A 6n on PD is still a 6n. Wales didnt seem too bothered in 2013 that they only won on PD ahead of england

I think a GS is worth about 1m extra in merit payments. And of course there are two trophies for a grand slam as you also win a Triple Crown as well. Wales were pleased enough to win it last year.

aimee1

jm08 wrote: »

I think a GS is worth about 1m extra in merit payments. And of course there are two trophies for a grand slam as you also win a Triple Crown as well. Wales were pleased enough to win it last year.

you can win the Triple crown, the 6n and not do the slam.

jm08

aimee1 wrote: »

is there a point to this? Our best winger, Bowe was injured in 2014. Trimble stepped up. Scored a few tries and had a hand in a few others

Just pointing out that Trimble isn't a top class international finisher as claimed here. He would have a lot more tries to his name if he was.

jm08

aimee1 wrote: »

you can win the Triple crown, the 6n and not do the slam.

It's a trophy which is what you are counting.

aimee1

jm08 wrote: »

Just pointing out that Trimble isn't a top class international finisher as claimed here. He would have a lot more tries to his name if he was.

i never said he was though. I said "Trimble seemed to know how to attack and finish in 2014 when he scored a couple of tries".

He also had a hand in a few other tries too IIRC. Was involved in two in Paris as well as scoring one.

aimee1

jm08 wrote: »

It's a trophy which is what you are counting.

triple crowns are like topping the league but losing the playoffs to quite yourself.

Wales won the TC but finished 3rd. Ireland didnt win the TC but won the championship. I know which one I would prefer if i had to choose.

The Rape of Lucretia

aimee1 wrote: »

triple crowns are like topping the league but losing the playoffs to quite yourself.

Triple crowns arent even that. They are a historical curiosity. It mattered to my grandfather, but utterly worthless as an achievement in the modern world of pro rugby and the 6N.
Should be allowed fade into history, with most rugby followers not even knowing the term.

Clegg

If we're talking about top level wings then the only Irish player that has been in that category for me is Tommy Bowe. The rest are varying levels of decent. But the one man to consistently score for Ireland over the course of his career is Bowe. Shame it looks as if he's finished at the top level.

shootermacg

jm08 wrote: »

It was a kick down the sideline where young Ronan o'mahony knocked him off the ball. A top class finisher like earls or Zebo would have got down low and slid in for the try.

Edit include bowe with Zebo and earls.

I'm watching it now and I call bullsh1t!

Zebo would have picked it up and probably thrown in a double movement while trying to curl the ball past the near post with a bicycle kick and Earls would have picked it up and then flexed his pec which would have shot the ball into the stands. Bowe would still be asleep as he was for the WC.

jm08

jm08 wrote: »

I think a GS is worth about 1m extra in merit payments. And of course there are two trophies for a grand slam as you also win a Triple Crown as well. Wales were pleased enough to win it last year.

Link please. You have form for making stuff up out of thin air.

mfceiling

jm08 wrote: »

:eek:h

A top international winger would have scored that try last night that Trimble failed to do (both earls and Zebo for example).

Dave Kearney is a good club standard player (not as good as Ian Downing was though!)

How are you so certain that Earls and Zebo would have scored that try and that they both are "top international" wingers. Earls is a very good winger while Zebo is ok...I wouldn't rate him or Earls better than Trimble tbh.

mfceiling

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

This is blasphemous talk. The start of the 6N is around the corner. Yes, we are all undergoing a test of our faith since the world cup, but we must stay true to him.

Joe is the one sent to bring us to rugby Nirvana, is the smartest rugby brain in the universe, and will deliver.

Joe doesnt do mistakes. He doesnt do random. He does evolutionary steps. The ones necessary, no more, no less, to reach the greater goal.

Joe moves in mysterious ways. You may not understand all the selections, or agree with the tactics. But in that case, it is your own rugby insight that is lacking, not Joe's. Search your feelings and you will know it to be true.

I read that in Liam Neeson's voice and it sounded great!!

shootermacg

mfceiling wrote: »

How are you so certain that Earls and Zebo would have scored that try and that they both are "top international" wingers. Earls is a very good winger while Zebo is ok...I wouldn't rate him or Earls better than Trimble tbh.

Exactly! Trimble puts in the graft, breaks people in the tackle and it as good as anyone under the high ball. He's still got good pace and is an unselfish example of a team player. Irish player of the year in 2014 don't forget that.

.ak

I'd rather take poor 'finishers' like Trimble and Fitzgerald over the likes of Dave Kearney or Zebo. They add so much more to the 15 than most others ever will from the wing.

The idea your 11/14 are just there to gas over line is incredibly short sighted in today's game.

mfceiling

jm08 wrote: »

Trimble 58 caps, 16 tries
Bowe 67 caps, 30 tries

Zebo 21 caps, 7 tries

Albeit one of those tries was against the mighty Georgia...

jm08

aimee1 wrote: »

i never said he was though. I said "Trimble seemed to know how to attack and finish in 2014 when he scored a couple of tries".

He also had a hand in a few other tries too IIRC. Was involved in two in Paris as well as scoring one.

I think it was Bilson who claimed he is a class 'finisher'.

aimee1 wrote: »

triple crowns are like topping the league but losing the playoffs to quite yourself.

Wales won the TC but finished 3rd. Ireland didnt win the TC but won the championship. I know which one I would prefer if i had to choose.

A grand slam is still winning two trophies no matter what way you want to put it.

irishbucsfan

jm08 wrote: »

Trimble 58 caps, 16 tries
Bowe 67 caps, 30 tries

Trimble played a fair few games at center originally lets not forget, and he's a far better at winger now than he was at center back then. More stats out of context losing their meaning.

jm08

shootermacg wrote: »

I'm watching it now and I call bullsh1t!

Zebo would have picked it up and probably thrown in a double movement while trying to curl the ball past the near post with a bicycle kick and Earls would have picked it up and then flexed his pec which would have shot the ball into the stands. Bowe would still be asleep as he was for the WC.

It was still a poor effort from Trimble.

The Rape of Lucretia

jm08 wrote: »

I think it was Bilson who claimed he is a class 'finisher'.



A grand slam is still winning two trophies no matter what way you want to put it.

If you follow that line, its still winning about 5 trophies (so important I cant even remember them all - Millennium Quaich anyone?).

Whup de do.

shootermacg

GVDH to be our next world class winger! You heard it here first! Where's the umbrella icon, there's gonna be a sh1t storm on the way.

jm08

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Trimble played a fair few games at center originally lets not forget, and he's a far better at winger now than he was at center back then. More stats out of context losing their meaning.

7 starts to be exact at centre out of 46 starts which means he has had 39 starts on the wing to Zebo's 14 starts on the wing.

By the way Trimble scored 2 of those tries as a centre v Romania;)

aimee1

jm08 wrote: »

A grand slam is still winning two trophies no matter what way you want to put it.

TC's arent worth a damn really, only trophy that counts in spring time is a 6 nations trophy.

jm08

.ak wrote: »

I'd rather take poor 'finishers' like Trimble and Fitzgerald over the likes of Dave Kearney or Zebo. They add so much more to the 15 than most others ever will from the wing.

The idea your 11/14 are just there to gas over line is incredibly short sighted in today's game.

Dave Kearney must have the worst try scoring record of any winger going. He would be more in the Fitzgerald league of finishers than in the Trimble league.

jm08

aimee1 wrote: »

TC's arent worth a damn really, only trophy that counts in spring time is a 6 nations trophy.

na, the only trophy that counts is the grand slam. No one even remembers that Martin Johnson won a championship when coaching England.

bilston

jm08 wrote: »

I think it was Bilson who claimed he is a class 'finisher'.

I stand by it.

.ak

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

Lets all just agree that, provided there is no plague casting down all other fit Irish wingers, Dave Kearney should never be near an Irish jersey again.

If that's the consensus I'd agree that Zebo should never wear that jersey either. Both players have their strengths and weaknesses, and despite all this debate the reality is both players are exactly in the same position in the pecking order because both players are just OK wingers. Neither of them will tear up trees at international level, both of them will do a decent job but that's it. End of.

I expect a lot of people won't agree with that, but c'est la vie.

Pink Fairy

.ak wrote: »

If that's the consensus I'd agree that Zebo should never wear that jersey either. Both players have their strengths and weaknesses, and despite all this debate the reality is both players are exactly in the same position in the pecking order because both players are just OK wingers. Neither of them will tear up trees at international level, both of them will do a decent job but that's it. End of.

I expect a lot of people won't agree with that, but c'est la vie.

It's an opinion, it is neither right nor wrong,

jm08

.ak wrote: »

If that's the consensus I'd agree that Zebo should never wear that jersey either. Both players have their strengths and weaknesses, and despite all this debate the reality is both players are exactly in the same position in the pecking order because both players are just OK wingers. Neither of them will tear up trees at international level, both of them will do a decent job but that's it. End of.

I expect a lot of people won't agree with that, but c'est la vie.

For just an ok winger, its surprising that Zebo got a call up to the Lions.

The Rape of Lucretia

jm08 wrote: »

For just an ok winger, its surprising that Zebo got a call up to the Lions.

It is. Heavily dependent on the quality and health of the alternatives available. But yes, surprising. Tyrone Howe was a similar case as I recall.

mfceiling

jm08 wrote: »

For just an ok winger, its surprising that Zebo got a call up to the Lions.

Then he's up there with the mighty Tom Court who also was a lion...

the baby bull elephant

Does the mention of the Lions make Zebo bingo?

aimee1

the baby bull elephant wrote: »

Does the mention of the Lions make Zebo bingo?

no that will come now when i mention he was offered a contract by toulouse which is the final piece of that jigsaw

jm08

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

It is. Heavily dependent on the quality and health of the alternatives available. But yes, surprising. Tyrone Howe was a similar case as I recall.

Mike Brown (who had been on the wing for England in the 6ns was touring with England in Argentina for starters). Then Chris Ashton was also available.

jm08

mfceiling wrote: »

Then he's up there with the mighty Tom Court who also was a lion...

They brought Zebo in from the U.S., they brought Tom Court in from Sydney:D