Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread V

.ak

jm08 wrote: »

For just an ok winger, its surprising that Zebo got a call up to the Lions.

Do you think Wade is anything more than an ok winger? Or Tom Court an ok prop?

jm08

the baby bull elephant wrote: »

Does the mention of the Lions make Zebo bingo?

No. Just recognised as being better quality than either Trimble or Kearney who have never got a sniff of making a Tour.

jm08

.ak wrote: »

Do you think Wade is anything more than an ok winger? Or Tom Court an ok prop?

I have not seen enough of wade to comment on that. He does have a very good try scoring record for wasps (18 in 22 games) last season but you don't rate try scoring as something a wing should be able to do.

He did score against Leinster in champs cup though. D kearney's wing as well!

FairPlay to Tom court getting the call. Handy he didn't have to deal with jetlag.

gmurphy70

mfceiling wrote: »

Zebo 21 caps, 7 tries

Albeit one of those tries was against the mighty Georgia...

That's a poor return from "excellent finisher"
Never bought into the hype that is Zebo. Thought he was going to be a class international when he arrived on the scene but he is going backwards if anything. Dont remember him in any game where he has been brilliant in an irish Jersey.

Wingers for 6 nations if Bowe is out
Trimble
Fitzgerald
Earls
Kearney
Keith Earls is a great winger and that's where he should be playing all along. He is not and never was good in the centre.

molloyjh

awec wrote: »

I meant none of the people giving out about the criticism have said that exact word, but that is the general gist you get on here whenever you dare ask any question about the coach or the team.

Schmidt cannot be questioned because we won two six nations in a row.

Nobody ever said anything of the sort. You yourself however have said DK is not of the required international standard yet someone who knows far more about the game than any of us here disagrees. That either means that he is wrong despite all his knowledge and success or you are. To get something that basic that wrong would be pretty damning about any coach.

Question the guy and his decisions fine, but you can't but acknowledge that the guy knows what he is doing and so even when you disagree realise that he may have a point.

molloyjh

AbusesToilets wrote: »

There is scope to playing exciting rugby and be successful. Other teams clearly manage, why should Ireland be content playing a reductive style of game plan when we have players who are capable of a lot more?

Saying Schmidt doesn't have enough time with the players to develop such a style ignores all the other teams that manage to do so, with similar coaching time.

This idea that we don't play is nonsense. We had a limited game in the 2014 AIs and the 2015 6Ns due to bedding in a completely new centre partnership and missing a few key players in the build up. We were plenty exciting in the 2014 6Ns and were looking to play more expansively in the RWC where we kicked a lot less than we had been. But tha doesn't get spoken about because Irish people need to find something to complain about. It's no fun without a good whinge.

jm08

gmurphy70 wrote: »

That's a poor return from "excellent finisher"
Never bought into the hype that is Zebo. Thought he was going to be a class international when he arrived on the scene but he is going backwards if anything. Dont remember him in any game where he has been brilliant in an irish Jersey.

Wingers for 6 nations if Bowe is out
Trimble
Fitzgerald
Earls
Kearney
Keith Earls is a great winger and that's where he should be playing all along. He is not and never was good in the centre.

13 starts on the wing with a return of 6 tries from there. Decent enough for an international winger. Dave Kearney has scored 3 tries in 12 starts on the wing (2 v Samoa and 1 v Canada - the 2 he scored against Samoa were as a sub in the same game.

Mahatma Geansai

Zebo is, by a margin, the best try scorer we have in the country. I doubt anyone since Denis Hickey could come close to matching his stats.

Zebo vs Kearney is essentially the Hickey vs Anthony Horgan of the modern game.

its_phil

molloyjh wrote: »

This idea that we don't play is nonsense. We had a limited game in the 2014 AIs and the 2015 6Ns due to bedding in a completely new centre partnership and missing a few key players in the build up. We were plenty exciting in the 2014 6Ns and were looking to play more expansively in the RWC where we kicked a lot less than we had been. But tha doesn't get spoken about because Irish people need to find something to complain about. It's no fun without a good whinge.

In the context of tier 1 international rugby, we're not an expansive side and operate a kick oriented game. Contestables and maul would be the buzz words for our attacking rugby IMO.

That's fine when you're winning but when a team was able to win their high balls and defend a maul, we may have been capable of playing wide but simply not as good as the best teams and became exposed when our rock solid defence became fragile in absence of Payne.

jm08

molloyjh wrote: »

Nobody ever said anything of the sort. You yourself however have said DK is not of the required international standard yet someone who knows far more about the game than any of us here disagrees. That either means that he is wrong despite all his knowledge and success or you are. To get something that basic that wrong would be pretty damning about any coach.

Question the guy and his decisions fine, but you can't but acknowledge that the guy knows what he is doing and so even when you disagree realise that he may have a point.

He failed at the World Cup though, so there is good reason to question him.

jm08

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

Zebo is, by a margin, the best try scorer we have in the country. I doubt anyone since Denis Hickey could come close to matching his stats.

Zebo vs Kearney is essentially the Hickey vs Anthony Horgan of the modern game.

Anthony Horgan scored tries though. Kearney does not.

irishbucsfan

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

Zebo is, by a margin, the best try scorer we have in the country. I doubt anyone since Denis Hickey could come close to matching his stats.

Zebo might even be as good as Craig Gilroy at the try scoring if he keeps it up!

AbusesToilets

molloyjh wrote: »

This idea that we don't play is nonsense. We had a limited game in the 2014 AIs and the 2015 6Ns due to bedding in a completely new centre partnership and missing a few key players in the build up. We were plenty exciting in the 2014 6Ns and were looking to play more expansively in the RWC where we kicked a lot less than we had been. But tha doesn't get spoken about because Irish people need to find something to complain about. It's no fun without a good whinge.

Can't agree with that assessment at all. Watching the struggle and fail to breakdown the Welsh while camped on their line or similar struggles to generate tries during the WC does not suggest a team with great attacking fluency.

The Scotland game and the French game in Paris are two games where they showed attacking intent and effectiveness.

jm08

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Zebo might even be as good as Craig Gilroy at the try scoring if he keeps it up!

Zebo is streets ahead of Gilroy in pts per game scored at club level:

Denis hickey 2.3 pts per game
Simon Zebo 2.2 pts
Tommy bowe 1.8
Shane Horgan 1.7
Trimble 1.6
Gilroy 1.6
Earls 1.5
Anthony Horgan 1.4
Luke Fitzgerald 1.1
Dave Kearney 0.9

Edit to include BOD: 1.7 pts per game

Darragh Fanning scores 2.5 points per game at Champions Cup level

jm08

Deleted User wrote: »

Darragh Fanning scores 2.5 points per game at Champions Cup level

He scrapes in between Luke and Dave at 1pt per game for Leinster

swiwi_

In this memorable year for Ireland, I was touched by the re-enactment of the civil war on this forum yesterday (or was it "The Troubles"??, forum certainly seemed divided down sectarian lines...)

mfceiling

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

Zebo is, by a margin, the best try scorer we have in the country. I doubt anyone since Denis Hickey could come close to matching his stats.

Zebo vs Kearney is essentially the Hickey vs Anthony Horgan of the modern game.

He isn't the best try scorer we have in the country.

former total

Clegg wrote: »

If we're talking about top level wings then the only Irish player that has been in that category for me is Tommy Bowe. The rest are varying levels of decent. But the one man to consistently score for Ireland over the course of his career is Bowe. Shame it looks as if he's finished at the top level.

This is really what it comes down to.

None of our wingers are the complete package at the moment and we've had very few in the pro era who fit that description. I'd say Tommy Bowe of a couple of years ago and maybe Shane Horgan and Denis Hickie of the Eddie O'Sullivan golden years were the closest we had to all-round wingers - everyone else that we've had before or since has had some defect or other, and that includes the Bowe of the present day.

Whether it's Kearney or Zebo or Earls or Gilroy or whoever else, each of them has strengths and weaknesses that prevent them from really claiming the jersey as their own. If you want to say Kearney shouldn't be there because he doesn't have any attacking edge, or Gilroy can't be picked because he's a turnstile in defence, or Zebo is too lazy, grand, but let's not delude ourselves there's a right or wrong answer here.

This thread is going to be unbearable once the 6N rolls around. The faux outrage is building nicely already.

jm08

former total wrote: »

This is really what it comes down to.

None of our wingers are the complete package at the moment and we've had very few in the pro era who fit that description. I'd say Tommy Bowe of a couple of years ago and maybe Shane Horgan and Denis Hickie of the Eddie O'Sullivan golden years were the closest we had to all-round wingers - everyone else that we've had before or since has had some defect or other, and that includes the Bowe of the present day.

Whether it's Kearney or Zebo or Earls or Gilroy or whoever else, each of them has strengths and weaknesses that prevent them from really claiming the jersey as their own. If you want to say Kearney shouldn't be there because he doesn't have any attacking edge, or Gilroy can't be picked because he's a turnstile in defence, or Zebo is too lazy, grand, but let's not delude ourselves there's a right or wrong answer here.

That sounds like a coaching/gameplan issue when you say that Bowe under different coaches was better than he is under the present coaches.

awec

jm08 wrote: »

That sounds like a coaching/gameplan issue when you say that Bowe under different coaches was better than he is under the present coaches.

Bowe is in his twilight years so it's hardly surprising that he is not as potent as he was in his prime.

Clegg

jm08 wrote: »

That sounds like a coaching/gameplan issue when you say that Bowe under different coaches was better than he is under the present coaches.

I think it's more down to the fact that he's in his 30's now and isn't quite the athlete he used to be. Tactics play a part, but he's definitely on the way down as a player.

awec

former total wrote: »

This is really what it comes down to.

None of our wingers are the complete package at the moment and we've had very few in the pro era who fit that description. I'd say Tommy Bowe of a couple of years ago and maybe Shane Horgan and Denis Hickie of the Eddie O'Sullivan golden years were the closest we had to all-round wingers - everyone else that we've had before or since has had some defect or other, and that includes the Bowe of the present day.

Whether it's Kearney or Zebo or Earls or Gilroy or whoever else, each of them has strengths and weaknesses that prevent them from really claiming the jersey as their own. If you want to say Kearney shouldn't be there because he doesn't have any attacking edge, or Gilroy can't be picked because he's a turnstile in defence, or Zebo is too lazy, grand, but let's not delude ourselves there's a right or wrong answer here.

Do we really have to delude ourselves that there isn't a hierarchy of talent? Some players are better than others. The idea that they are all just the same with different characteristics is utter nonsense.

Is DK as good as Zebo? No.
Is DK as good as Trimble? No.
Is DK as good as Fitzgerald? No.
Is DK as good as Bowe? No.

Undoubtedly people will go on about systems or how Schmidt knows him or some other reason, but at the end of the day the four players above just are better players than Dave Kearney. There is no point in us pretending otherwise. A hierarchy of talent exists, the above players are both just plain better but also more exciting to watch than DK and we should be picking the best we have available, rather than picking the average blokes cause we prefer to continually pick the mundane over the mercurial talent.

awec

awec wrote: »

Do we really have to delude ourselves that there isn't a hierarchy of talent? Some players are better than others. The idea that they are all just the same with different characteristics is utter nonsense.

Is DK as good as Zebo? No.
Is DK as good as Trimble? No.
Is DK as good as Fitzgerald? No.
Is DK as good as Bowe? No.

Undoubtedly people will go on about systems or how Schmidt knows him or some other reason, but at the end of the day the four players above just are better players than Dave Kearney. There is no point in us pretending otherwise. A hierarchy of talent exists, the above players are both just plain better but also more exciting to watch than DK and we should be picking the best we have available, rather than picking the average blokes cause we prefer to continually pick the mundane over the mercurial talent.

I don't agree that Zebo is a better player, and I think as of last summer it was probably a toss up between DK and Bowe given the latter's form.

Do these players have a higher ceiling, yes. Does that mean they are always the better option? No.

awec

awec wrote: »

Do we really have to delude ourselves that there isn't a hierarchy of talent? Some players are better than others. The idea that they are all just the same with different characteristics is utter nonsense.

Is DK as good as Zebo? No.
Is DK as good as Trimble? No.
Is DK as good as Fitzgerald? No.
Is DK as good as Bowe? No.

Undoubtedly people will go on about systems or how Schmidt knows him or some other reason, but at the end of the day the four players above just are better players than Dave Kearney. There is no point in us pretending otherwise. A hierarchy of talent exists, the above players are both just plain better but also more exciting to watch than DK and we should be picking the best we have available, rather than picking the average blokes cause we prefer to continually pick the mundane over the mercurial talent.

I'd have Zebo and DK on par with each other below the rest tbh

molloyjh

awec wrote: »

Do we really have to delude ourselves that there isn't a hierarchy of talent? Some players are better than others. The idea that they are all just the same with different characteristics is utter nonsense.

Is DK as good as Zebo? No.
Is DK as good as Trimble? No.
Is DK as good as Fitzgerald? No.
Is DK as good as Bowe? No.

Undoubtedly people will go on about systems or how Schmidt knows him or some other reason, but at the end of the day the four players above just are better players than Dave Kearney. There is no point in us pretending otherwise. A hierarchy of talent exists, the above players are both just plain better but also more exciting to watch than DK and we should be picking the best we have available, rather than picking the average blokes cause we prefer to continually pick the mundane over the mercurial talent.

I wouldn't have Zebo ahead of Kearney tbh. In some areas of his game he is better and in others he is worse. For example Kearney is a stronger player in contact while Zebo can step in at first receiver well which DK can't really.

In the build up to the RWC DKs form was undoubtedly better than Bowes. Bowe is a better player overall but you can't ignore form completely. And pre-RWC Bowe was in poor form while DK was in really good form.

Trimble, Earls and Fitz are all better wingers I'd agree but it remains to be seen where exactly Fitz will play this 6Ns. He may well move to 12 if Payne isn't in the squad.

So DK could end up in a 23 this 6Ns depending on a number of factors such as injury or form. He's not our best winger, hence he is not our first choice winger, but when on form he is very much up to international standard.

CMOTDibbler

Here they all are. Discuss

Name|PPM|Caps
Keith Earls|1.74|46
Luke FitzGerald|0.60|34
Tommy Bowe|2.24|67
Craig Gilroy|1.67|6
Denis Hickie|2.34|62
Shane Horgan|1.62|65
Dave Kearney|1.07|14
Fergus McFadden|1.55|29
Barry Murphy|1.25|4
Andrew Trimble|1.38|58
Simon Zebo|1.67|21

awec

I'd disagree completely, I think Zebo is a much better player than DK and if it was he who had put in a showing like DK on the wing or RK at fullback in that QF then he'd have been hung, drawn and quartered on here.

former total

awec wrote: »

Do we really have to delude ourselves that there isn't a hierarchy of talent? Some players are better than others. The idea that they are all just the same with different characteristics is utter nonsense.

Is DK as good as Zebo? No.
Is DK as good as Trimble? No.
Is DK as good as Fitzgerald? No.
Is DK as good as Bowe? No.

Undoubtedly people will go on about systems or how Schmidt knows him or some other reason, but at the end of the day the four players above just are better players than Dave Kearney. There is no point in us pretending otherwise. A hierarchy of talent exists, the above players are both just plain better but also more exciting to watch than DK and we should be picking the best we have available, rather than picking the average blokes cause we prefer to continually pick the mundane over the mercurial talent.

Hang on. Where did I say they were all the same? A hierarchy of talent does exist, of course it does. But the ranking of that hierarchy depends on what talent you're looking at.

The point you keep missing is that the coach picks the players who can execute his game plan. He doesn't pick the players, then say, "right, I have these 15 lads now, what game plan should I go with?" You said yesterday that the first step in playing a more exciting game is picking more exciting wingers - no, it's not.

And just to refresh your memory:
At the time of the World Cup; Tommy Bowe was the worst of the lot of them, he was genuinely awful and he probably shouldn't have travelled at all. Kearney was in the best form of the lot and Earls then showed himself to be razor sharp too. Had Payne not got injured, then they would have been the first-choice wingers against France and Argentina and Bowe would have been in the stands where he belonged.

I'm not sure why you're so anti-Dave Kearney but he's a much better player than you want to admit, I think you know that yourself.

awec

I also forgot about Keith Earls, another who should be selected ahead of DK every day of the week. Even if you forget about Zebo, there are four wingers who are just plain better than DK and there is pretty much zero reason why he should be selected ahead of any one of them (if fit).

awec

former total wrote: »

Hang on. Where did I say they were all the same? A hierarchy of talent does exist, of course it does. But the ranking of that hierarchy depends on what talent you're looking at.

The point you keep missing is that the coach picks the players who can execute his game plan. He doesn't pick the players, then say, "right, I have these 15 lads now, what game plan should I go with?" You said yesterday that the first step in playing a more exciting game is picking more exciting wingers - no, it's not.

And just to refresh your memory:
At the time of the World Cup; Tommy Bowe was the worst of the lot of them, he was genuinely awful and he probably shouldn't have travelled at all. Kearney was in the best form of the lot and Earls then showed himself to be razor sharp too. Had Payne not got injured, then they would have been the first-choice wingers against France and Argentina and Bowe would have been in the stands where he belonged.

I'm not sure why you're so anti-Dave Kearney but he's a much better player than you want to admit, I think you know that yourself.

I am not anti-DK specifically, he is just an example as a player who is relatively solid but just offers nothing interesting to the team.

As I (and loads of others) have said all along, Ireland have the potential to play much more interesting rugby than we do and picking exciting players (i.e. NOT DK) is one step to achieving that.

We have one of the most boring centre partnerships in the world as well in Henshaw and Payne. I'd have no problem seeing Payne removed from the team if it meant we were a bit more exciting to watch. Maybe even move Payne to full back because if truth be told RK is not exactly lighting up the world either.

A back line of Murray, Sexton, Earls, McCloskey, Henshaw, Trimble, Payne is infinitely more exciting than Murray, Sexton, DK, Henshaw, Payne, Trimble, RK.

swiwi_

As a neutral, without Leinster or Munster bias, I would much rather NZ face DK than Zebo. He offers minimal threat of his own on attack, and on defence I imagine the SANZAR sides would attack mercilessly down his flank after the 1/4 final showing. As I said yesterday, before I lost the willpower to live, he is Ireland's answer to Caleb Ralph or Scott Hamilton. He does a job if required, Ireland will go nowhere if he is seen as a permanent fixture in the 23. Playing OK at Pro 12 level vs Connacht isn't really relevant.

The jury is out for me a bit on Zebo, he has been in & out of the Irish team, and moved around too much for club and country to let him focus on his role. The current Munster backline is hardly conducive to letting Zebo shine.

As I posted for my team, I would currently have Trimble and Fitzgerald on the wings, with Zebo & Earls next cabs off the rank.

My one and only post on this topic, I have too much respect for (and need of) my sanity...

molloyjh

awec wrote: »

I am not anti-DK specifically, he is just an example as a player who is relatively solid but just offers nothing interesting to the team.

And right there is where I stopped reading. I don't want rugby players to be interesting. I want them to be effective.

This is just like the Toner-Henderson debate during the RWC. Rugby is not, never was, and never will be as simple as Player X > Player Y unless X is better at every aspect of the game than Y is. Where there are different skill sets, strengths and weaknesses both in relation to what they can do generally and in relation to what they can do within the structures set out by the coaches there will often be cases where Y might get selected ahead of X and vice versa. That's just real life.

Like I said about Toner vs Henderson, if you want a stronger set piece and a link man you go with Toner, if you want a ball carrier you go with Henderson. If you want/need a winger that can step in at firs receiver a bit more then Zebo is probably the guy you want. If you want a guy who is good in the air you might look to Dave Kearney. If you want an elusive runner you might look at Fitzgerald. If you want a more direct player you might look at Trimble.

Ireland won the 2014 6 Nations scoring the second highest number of tries in the competition, 1 behind England. They scored the most points in the competition. They played some bloody good rugby and they did it with Dave Kearney playing the full 80 in every game. In 2015 we played a far more conservative game with guys you seem to think are more exciting on the wings, and Dave played not a single minute. That might be worth remembering while talking about mercurial talent and exciting game plans.

former total

swiwi_ wrote: »

As a neutral, without Leinster or Munster bias, I would much rather NZ face DK than Zebo. He offers minimal threat of his own on attack, and on defence I imagine the SANZAR sides would attack mercilessly down his flank after the 1/4 final showing. As I said yesterday, before I lost the willpower to live, he is Ireland's answer to Caleb Ralph or Scott Hamilton. He does a job if required, Ireland will go nowhere if he is seen as a permanent fixture in the 23. Playing OK at Pro 12 level vs Connacht isn't really relevant.

I think that is actually a fair comparison to be honest. (Well, maybe not Hamilton, he was a bit rubbish)

The difference is; Caleb Ralph was competing with Jonah Lomu, Jeff Wilson, Joe Rococoko, Sitiveni Sivivatu... he was light years behind any of them in terms of ability. That is simply not the case in Ireland.

shuffol

DK is no world beater but he's nowhere near what's been made out.

He was miles behind the other options pre-WC but worked his arse off and impressed every time he got a chance, his performance against England in the warm ups was probably the best by any of our wings all season, taking into account the opposition, I think it's great that a player was given the opportunity to force his way into the side and is something that Schmidt should be commended for, not criticised. There weren't too many complaints when he was selected for the Argentina game. He made one noticeable error defensively in that game and now suddenly the knives are coming out. It just looks like certain people were waiting for an opportunity to get a dig in due to issues with selection which seem to me to be motivated by provincial bias.

DK is grand.

KISS

molloyjh

shuffol wrote: »

DK is no world beater but he's nowhere near what's been made out.

He was miles behind the other options pre-WC but worked his arse off and impressed every time he got a chance, his performance against England in the warm ups was probably the best by any of our wings all season, taking into account the opposition, I think it's great that a player was given the opportunity to force his way into the side and is something that Schmidt should be commended for, not criticised. There weren't too many complaints when he was selected for the Argentina game. He made one noticeable error defensively in that game and now suddenly the knives are coming out. It just looks like certain people were waiting for an opportunity to get a dig in due to issues with selection which seem to me to be motivated by provincial bias.

In fairness DK isn't someone I'd have in my 23 all things being equal. But as you said he worked his backside off and became the form option for the RWC. That's a huge positive and shows anyone else looking for the shirt that if you put in the effort and deliver on it then you'll have a strong claim to a shirt.

We don't have many quality wingers at the moment. Most have noticeable weaknesses in their game. But in terms of exciting game plans the wingers are one of the least important aspects. There's feck all point in having a Lomu or a Sivivatu on the wing if you can't get the ball to them effectively. As Leinster showed under Joe you can play an exciting brand of rugby without your wingers scoring loads of tries. Even against NZ in 2013 when we played some outstanding rugby neither winger (one of whom was DK lets not forget) got on the board.

It's far more important that we have forwards capable of playing more expansively, that we have half backs that can run the show properly and centres that can break the line or that can create for others to break the line. We're getting there with our forwards, although depth is an issue in that regard. Our half backs on form are one of the best units out there. But we've been limited by our centre options post Drico. Henshaw and Payne needed time to gel with each other and those around them. That was hampered somewhat by injuries. And beyond those 2 we had few options. That's starting to change now but we probably won't see the benefit of that until after SA.

Bazzo

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Here they all are. Discuss

Name|PPM|Caps
Keith Earls|1.74|46
Luke FitzGerald|0.60|34
Tommy Bowe|2.24|67
Craig Gilroy|0.60|6
Denis Hickie|2.34|62
Shane Horgan|1.62|65
Dave Kearney|1.07|14
Fergus McFadden|1.55|29
Barry Murphy|1.25|4
Andrew Trimble|1.38|58
Simon Zebo|1.67|21

Just out of interest, how are these calculated? It's not a straight average since, for example, Craig Gilroy couldn't have scored 3.6 points in 6 matches.

Tox56

swiwi_ wrote: »

As a neutral, without Leinster or Munster bias, I would much rather NZ face DK than Zebo. He offers minimal threat of his own on attack, and on defence I imagine the SANZAR sides would attack mercilessly down his flank after the 1/4 final showing. As I said yesterday, before I lost the willpower to live, he is Ireland's answer to Caleb Ralph or Scott Hamilton. He does a job if required, Ireland will go nowhere if he is seen as a permanent fixture in the 23. Playing OK at Pro 12 level vs Connacht isn't really relevant.

The jury is out for me a bit on Zebo, he has been in & out of the Irish team, and moved around too much for club and country to let him focus on his role. The current Munster backline is hardly conducive to letting Zebo shine.

As I posted for my team, I would currently have Trimble and Fitzgerald on the wings, with Zebo & Earls next cabs off the rank.

My one and only post on this topic, I have too much respect for (and need of) my sanity...

This is kind of evidence of the points made elsewhere in DK's favour. Other players might seem more 'interesting' and appear to have more 'flair', but it's not just about that, it's about effectiveness. While you might be happy to see DK on the teamsheet when New Zealand play Ireland, the only time Ireland have ever led after 80 minutes against New Zealand, pretty much as close as we have ever come in our history to winning against New Zealand, DK was in the team. I'm not saying DK was wholly responsible for this obviously, but there's more to it than a gut feeling or sense that one player is better than the other, or that one guy inspires more 'fear' than the other

Scythica

Bazzo wrote: »

Just out of interest, how are these calculated? It's not a straight average since, for example, Craig Gilroy couldn't have scored 3.6 points in 6 matches.

Perhaps it doest account for sub appearances where tries have been scored?

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Bazzo wrote: »

Just out of interest, how are these calculated? It's not a straight average since, for example, Craig Gilroy couldn't have scored 3.6 points in 6 matches.

Is it taking into account non test matches too? Gilroy scored 5 tries in two matches (BaaBaas and Fiji) which is 25 points.He scored against Argentina too, I believe, which is 30 points. Divided by his 6 appearances and that's an average of 5 points per match. No?

Edit: unless you're not including the non test ones which when included make the score 35 and the appearances 8 which then gives an average of 4.375 per match?

CMOTDibbler

Bazzo wrote: »

Just out of interest, how are these calculated? It's not a straight average since, for example, Craig Gilroy couldn't have scored 3.6 points in 6 matches.

Well spotted. I got my divisors reversed for Craig Gilroy. Edited and changed now and thanks for taking the trouble of checking it.

I've checked all the others and they're fine.

jm08

shuffol wrote: »

DK is no world beater but he's nowhere near what's been made out.

He was miles behind the other options pre-WC but worked his arse off and impressed every time he got a chance, his performance against England in the warm ups was probably the best by any of our wings all season, taking into account the opposition, I think it's great that a player was given the opportunity to force his way into the side and is something that Schmidt should be commended for, not criticised. There weren't too many complaints when he was selected for the Argentina game. He made one noticeable error defensively in that game and now suddenly the knives are coming out. It just looks like certain people were waiting for an opportunity to get a dig in due to issues with selection which seem to me to be motivated by provincial bias.

Zebo was not given an opportunity to compete for a wing spot for the world cup. All his recent starts have been fullback cover for Rob Kearney.

awec

swiwi_ wrote: »

As a neutral, without Leinster or Munster bias, I would much rather NZ face DK than Zebo. He offers minimal threat of his own on attack, and on defence I imagine the SANZAR sides would attack mercilessly down his flank after the 1/4 final showing. As I said yesterday, before I lost the willpower to live, he is Ireland's answer to Caleb Ralph or Scott Hamilton. He does a job if required, Ireland will go nowhere if he is seen as a permanent fixture in the 23. Playing OK at Pro 12 level vs Connacht isn't really relevant.

The jury is out for me a bit on Zebo, he has been in & out of the Irish team, and moved around too much for club and country to let him focus on his role. The current Munster backline is hardly conducive to letting Zebo shine.

As I posted for my team, I would currently have Trimble and Fitzgerald on the wings, with Zebo & Earls next cabs off the rank.

My one and only post on this topic, I have too much respect for (and need of) my sanity...

Agree with this 100%, except I would have Earls ahead of Fitzgerald. Fitzgerald is decent but his try scoring record is brutally bad. While that isn't the be all and end all his record is poor enough that it has to be a factor especially after 30 odd caps.

awec

molloyjh wrote: »

And right there is where I stopped reading. I don't want rugby players to be interesting. I want them to be effective.

This is just like the Toner-Henderson debate during the RWC. Rugby is not, never was, and never will be as simple as Player X > Player Y unless X is better at every aspect of the game than Y is. Where there are different skill sets, strengths and weaknesses both in relation to what they can do generally and in relation to what they can do within the structures set out by the coaches there will often be cases where Y might get selected ahead of X and vice versa. That's just real life.

Like I said about Toner vs Henderson, if you want a stronger set piece and a link man you go with Toner, if you want a ball carrier you go with Henderson. If you want/need a winger that can step in at firs receiver a bit more then Zebo is probably the guy you want. If you want a guy who is good in the air you might look to Dave Kearney. If you want an elusive runner you might look at Fitzgerald. If you want a more direct player you might look at Trimble.

Ireland won the 2014 6 Nations scoring the second highest number of tries in the competition, 1 behind England. They scored the most points in the competition. They played some bloody good rugby and they did it with Dave Kearney playing the full 80 in every game. In 2015 we played a far more conservative game with guys you seem to think are more exciting on the wings, and Dave played not a single minute. That might be worth remembering while talking about mercurial talent and exciting game plans.

This might be true if Dave Kearney was our only winger capable of catching a ball in the air. But that's not the case. I would say all of Ireland's wing options are good in the air except maybe Earls.

Fitzgerald also isn't the only elusive runner. Trimble isn't the only one who can play direct.

There is absolutely nothing Dave Kearney does that cannot be done by the other players. He might be decent in the air, but not so much that it makes up for his shortcomings in the other aspects of play.

sydthebeat

jm08 wrote: »

Zebo was not given an opportunity to compete for a wing spot for the world cup. All his recent starts have been fullback cover for Rob Kearney.

you see, this kind of statement equates to Zebo not being in the training camps beforehand......

or being in the training camps and not doing enough to secure the position.
which was it?

seeing as he got game time on the wing against wales in the first match, started at 15 against scotland and didnt feature at all against wales x2... which to me shows he was regressing in training.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

sydthebeat wrote: »

you see, this kind of statement equates to Zebo not being in the training camps beforehand......

or being in the training camps and not doing enough to secure the position.
which was it?

seeing as he got game time on the wing against wales in the first match, started at 15 against scotland and didnt feature at all against wales x2... which to me shows he was regressing in training.

We have no idea who was doing what in training but essentially I agree with what you're saying.

Any player who was in the extended training camps were given the exact same opportunity to compete for spots. If Zebo, or anyone else, didn't end up in the final squad or playing out of position then it's not down to not being given a fair shot. You might not agree with all of Schmidt's decisions, personally I'm still mad he left Trimble at home, but they are his decisions based on what he wants from players and who he thinks can best deliver that.

CMOTDibbler

Clearly nobody's going to agree on this because as I see it, most of the players currently are a notch below the likes of Tommy Bowe, Denis Hickie and Shane Horgan. That's based on the consistent scoring records they've had over a lot of caps. The only one who comes close to them is Keith Earls who needs 15-20 more caps to be their equal (something I've no doubt he could do btw).

After that, there are outliers like Fergus McFadden and Andrew Trimble, but both are getting on and probably won't trouble the record books.

What we are short of is somebody that can equal those records on a consistent basis. Some say that this could be Simon Zebo, but that's yet to be decided.

Having produced the table, I'd be the first to admit that it's a very one-dimensional view. What Ireland has lacked since the retirement of BOD is a genuine, consistent gain-line breaker who can put others or themselves over the try line. The fact that our best try scoring wingers played most of their international rugby in teams that featured BOD is an indication of that.

There is some hope that this dearth may well be filled in the coming years by the likes of Garry Ringrose, Stuart Olding, Luke Fitz (at centre) and others such as Robbie Henshaw who already have shown some promise. Maybe then we'll see our wingers score more tries.

former total

sydthebeat wrote: »

you see, this kind of statement equates to Zebo not being in the training camps beforehand......

or being in the training camps and not doing enough to secure the position.
which was it?

Yeah, I was making this point a while ago in relation to Cave and Marmion; actual game time is all we have to go on but it's a tiny fraction of what the coaches see.
They were all in camp for what, 3 months? That's a whole lot of work going on in the background which we simply don't know about.