Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread V

Stheno

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Does anyone know what specifically they're talking about when saying Heaslip lacks humility etc?

It sounds like some of these guys may have had bad interviews with him and have a bit of a vendetta?

Sounds like it

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

So... there seems to have been around 48 players at this camp.

Confirmed 11 were Ulster, 11 were Munster and 5 were Connacht. So that leaves 21 Leinster?

Were there not 50 at the session which would make it 23 Leinster?

Stheno

Stheno wrote: »

Really?

Yes really. Then he claimed it wasn't him and deleted the tweet, didn't even have the stones to take ownership of what he'd said.

http://www.balls.ie/rugby/conor-george-should-have-deleted-that-tweet-where-called-jamie-heaslip-that-absolute-knob/74750

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Stheno wrote: »

Were there not 50 at the session which would make it 23 Leinster?

Article yesterday said around 48, that one today says nearly 50.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Some players make loads of time for the media/outsiders etc and will be talkative during interviews etc. Think the likes of Donncha O'Callaghan or Paulie. Not all players are like that, some are quite private.

When fans meet guys who aren't like that and don't go out of their way as much or give them interesting soundbites they can end up with a bit of a reputation. Generally it doesn't matter anywhere near as much as the media like to convince themselves it does.

That's what I mean. It sounds like a few of these guys are saying Heaslip wouldn't give us the exact interview we wanted one time so he's clearly not captain material.

Based purely on what we see of him on the pitch when he is captain you could say it doesn't seem to suit him. I'd say it myself. The journalists seem to have a completely different reason for writing him off.

I reckon it'll be PoM long term anyway.

Mahatma Geansai

The biggest mark against Heaslip as a potential captain is his shocking record when given the armband. As captain, he has overseen Ireland's 5th place 6N finish, Leinster's 5th place Pro12 finish, and Ireland's recent embarrassment at the hands of Argentina. Add to that, the most impressive backrow in the country (Stander) over the last 18 months also plays 8.

I would opt for Best in the short-term and wait and seen if any other options show up; POM looks the most suitable to take the responsibility after Best if he can stay consistently fit.

I don't think any of the other touted options are good enough/suitable. SOB losing his head against France is a huge black mark. Murray probably doesn't have leadership qualities. Sexton is too narky and already struggles to kick when the pressure comes on. Henshaw is too young and needs to grow as a leader in the squad. Kearney should be struggling to keep his place in the team and he would be too far away from the action.

irishbucsfan

I would opt for Best short term as well. If it is a problem for him to captain Ulster simultaneously surely Chris Henry can stand in?

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

The biggest mark against Heaslip as a potential captain is his shocking record when given the armband. As captain, he has overseen Ireland's 5th place 6N finish, Leinster's 5th place Pro12 finish, and Ireland's recent embarrassment at the hands of Argentina. Add to that, the most impressive backrow in the country (Stander) over the last 18 months also plays 8.

I would opt for Best in the short-term and wait and seen if any other options show up; POM looks the most suitable to take the responsibility after Best if he can stay consistently fit.

I don't think Heaslip's place in the starting 15 is under threat, not yet anyway, and I don't think the Argentina QF should be held against him personally in his role as captain, but the rest of it's correct. He just doesn't seem to play as well when he is captain. I think he actually contributes more from a leadership point of view when he's not captain.

mfceiling

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

The biggest mark against Heaslip as a potential captain is his shocking record when given the armband. As captain, he has overseen Ireland's 5th place 6N finish, Leinster's 5th place Pro12 finish, and Ireland's recent embarrassment at the hands of Argentina. Add to that, the most impressive backrow in the country (Stander) over the last 18 months also plays 8.

I would opt for Best in the short-term and wait and seen if any other options show up; POM looks the most suitable to take the responsibility after Best if he can stay consistently fit.

I don't think any of the other touted options are good enough/suitable. SOB losing his head against France is a huge black mark. Murray probably doesn't have leadership qualities. Sexton is too narky and already struggles to kick when the pressure comes on. Henshaw is too young and needs to grow as a leader in the squad. Kearney should be struggling to keep his place in the team and he would be too far away from the action.

I didn't realise the captain had such influence on games that you can blame them for poor finishes in the 6N.
Did the coach or any other players not have responsibility at the time or because it was Heaslip the poor results stopped dead at his door?

Paul Smeenus

awec wrote: »

I assume that neither Henderson or Bowe have travelled down from Ulster.

I assume that Best, Henry, Jackson, Trimble, McCloskey, Gilroy, Marshall, Cave and Payne are all there. That's 9. Perhaps Olding has been called down as he nears fitness and maybe O'Connor?

Weird there's no list though I guess with it being 24 hours it's all a bit pointless.

Wouldn't be surprised if Herring was in there as well.

shootermacg

Is PoC definitely retired? I mean definitely! Dust off the "One more year" signs and we're good to go!

bilston

Best for the this 6Ns with POM taking over next season.

aimee1

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

The biggest mark against Heaslip as a potential captain is his shocking record when given the armband. As captain, he has overseen Ireland's 5th place 6N finish, Leinster's 5th place Pro12 finish, and Ireland's recent embarrassment at the hands of Argentina. Add to that, the most impressive backrow in the country (Stander) over the last 18 months also plays 8.

I would opt for Best in the short-term and wait and seen if any other options show up; POM looks the most suitable to take the responsibility after Best if he can stay consistently fit.

I don't think any of the other touted options are good enough/suitable. SOB losing his head against France is a huge black mark. Murray probably doesn't have leadership qualities. Sexton is too narky and already struggles to kick when the pressure comes on. Henshaw is too young and needs to grow as a leader in the squad. Kearney should be struggling to keep his place in the team and he would be too far away from the action.

Well does responsibility for Munster's recent run of 5 straight losses rest with Stander, if the No8 Captain has such influence on the results?

Taking over from BOD and POC is akin to David Moyes succeeding Alex Ferguson. People expect the next guy to be the exact same as the previous guy and Heaslip isnt either of them but that should not be used as a stick to beat him with, he is one of the most decorated players in irish rugby history, and he had contributed immensely to each of those successes. My own preference for captain would be Rory Best.

The 2013 6n was the fault of everyone, from the coach to the entire playing staff, not one single player. Leinster finished 5th in the pro12 last season but got to the ERCC semi final, with the same captain. As for he RWC exit, that was no way the responsibility of Jamie Heaslip. It was a collective disaster in the first 20 minutes which ultimately cost Ireland. Pinning the blame on one player out of 23 is utter nonsense.

As for your remark about SOB, POC had similar black marks against him ... decking an Ireland team mate in training knocking him out cold, or his red card against the Ospreys for striking off the ball so putting incidents like that out as a black mark against a player is yet more nonsense

As a matter of interest, how do you quantify FORM?

aimee1

aimee1 wrote: »

Well does responsibility for Munster's recent run of 5 straight losses rest with Stander, if the No8 Captain has such influence on the results?

Taking over from BOD and POC is akin to David Moyes succeeding Alex Ferguson. People expect the next guy to be the exact same as the previous guy and Heaslip isnt either of them but that should not be used as a stick to beat him with, he is one of the most decorated players in irish rugby history, and he had contributed immensely to each of those successes. My own preference for captain would be Rory Best.

The 2013 6n was the fault of everyone, from the coach to the entire playing staff, not one single player. Leinster finished 5th in the pro12 last season but got to the ERCC semi final, with the same captain. As for he RWC exit, that was no way the responsibility of Jamie Heaslip. It was a collective disaster in the first 20 minutes which ultimately cost Ireland. Pinning the blame on one player out of 23 is utter nonsense.

As for your remark about SOB, POC had similar black marks against him ... decking an Ireland team mate in training knocking him out cold, or his red card against the Ospreys for striking off the ball so putting incidents like that out as a black mark against a player is yet more nonsense

As a matter of interest, how do you quantify FORM?

Would you look at who you're talking to. It's one rule for Munster players.

Blaming Heaslip for 2013 is a new one tbf.

shootermacg

Just for the record. I think JH is a shoo in for the position. Seeing as Leinster have the greater percentage of players in the squad, I've no problem with it to be honest, although he isn't a natural at expressing himself and comes off a bit forced on TV.

If he was sure of his place I'd have no issue with RK either, well liked, good laugh and approachable.

Best, of course, is my number one choice.

Pink Fairy

shootermacg wrote: »

Is PoC definitely retired? I mean definitely! Dust off the "One more year" signs and we're good to go!

Well, he's injured for this season, was in Tralee at New Year's and he looked trim and fit

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Pink Fairy wrote: »

Well, he's injured for this season, was in Tralee at New Year's and he looked trim and fit

Trying to play for Ireland while playing for a French team seems more hassle than it's worth.

The Lost Sheep

shootermacg wrote: »

Is PoC definitely retired? I mean definitely! Dust off the "One more year" signs and we're good to go!

Yes he has completely finished with Ireland. No hope he's coming back and we're better off long term not playing him. He's out for this season and we need to look at more options long term.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Trying to play for Ireland while playing for a French team seems more hassle than it's worth.

Does it? You have to be released for the specific test weeks and while you wont have to be released for all irish camps/sessions like todays but that shouldn't be a major issue depending on player.

b.gud

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

So... there seems to have been around 48 players at this camp.

Confirmed 11 were Ulster, 11 were Munster and 5 were Connacht. So that leaves 21 Leinster?

I thought I read earlier that there were only 4 from Connacht, Dillane, Henshaw, Marmion and White. Do you know who the 5th is?

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Does it? You have to be released for the specific test weeks and while you wont have to be released for all irish camps/sessions like todays but that shouldn't be a major issue depending on player.

It does.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

b.gud wrote: »

I thought I read earlier that there were only 4 from Connacht, Dillane, Henshaw, Marmion and White. Do you know who the 5th is?

No, but I'm sure it said 5 in one of the articles linked a few pages back. Maybe I got it wrong.

errlloyd

I think best, but only becuase best is an outstanding gentlemen and quality player. He has a tendency to be the good thing about a bad game, which shows his standards never slip. I dearly respect him.

My second choice, by a whisker is Jamie. A perfectly capable leader, who has surely played more minutes of rugby this decade than anyone else in the world.

The Pheasant2

b.gud wrote: »

I thought I read earlier that there were only 4 from Connacht, Dillane, Henshaw, Marmion and White. Do you know who the 5th is?

TOH perhaps?

phog

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

It does.

That's everyone convinced so.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

phog wrote: »

That's everyone convinced so.

Glad that's sorted then.

AbusesToilets

Captaincy should go to Best. He should have been given the Vice Captaincy over Heaslip and tbh I wouldn't have objected to him getting the Captaincy over POC. He's an outstanding player, easily one of the best to play for Ireland. That's no comment against Heaslip either, who never ceases to amaze me with the abuse he gets on here and elsewhere.

I'd be shocked by anyone but Heaslip. No one else makes sense right now.

irishbucsfan

Deleted User wrote: »

I'd be shocked by anyone but Heaslip. No one else makes sense right now.

Heaslip may be favourite but why wouldn't Rory Best make sense?

Stheno

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Heaslip may be favourite but why wouldn't Rory Best make sense?

THe usual argument is that no one in the front row lasts eighty minutes.

I don't see an issue with that tbh, he can pass the captaincy to Heaslip when he comes off.

aimee1

Stheno wrote: »

THe usual argument is that no one in the front row lasts eighty minutes.

I don't see an issue with that tbh, he can pass the captaincy to Heaslip when he comes off.

thats why there is always 2-3 VCs

former total

Tadhg Furlong was training with Leinster today, seems to have been the only Irish international there. Would have thought he'd be at Carton House.

leakyboots

I'd have Best myself given PoM is out. Dunno about Heaslip, think he's more of an onfield leader in terms of how he plays, but there's a bit of a paucity of options for us so it's kind of him as VC by default for the moment.

jm08

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Funny how much your opinion has changed now that it's BOD working as a pundit compared to the old days when you went out of your way to defend Sheahan from similar criticism

In the interests of transparency and fairness it should be pointed out that BOD is the second largest shareholder (after the owner) of the agency that counts Jamie Heaslip & Cian Healy among his clients.

At least Frankie used to give a full list of his clients. Wish the same applied to Ikon Talent.

jm08

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Does anyone know what specifically they're talking about when saying Heaslip lacks humility etc?

It sounds like some of these guys may have had bad interviews with him and have a bit of a vendetta?

This is what the Indo say about him.

It is away from the pitch when the No 8 lets himself down, however, and, while it might not be the primary focus of the role, the additional engagements required of a skipper are pivotal to setting the tone for the team and show the public face of the squad.
When the mood takes him, Heaslip can be engaging company, a funny and thoughtful interviewee who thinks outside the standard selection of stock answers.
However, too often his too-cool-for-school approach lets him down in front of the cameras. He can come across as arrogant and churlish when the mood takes him.
Heaslip will remain an important and valued part of the Ireland set-up, but Schmidt may look elsewhere. The role just doesn't suit him.

Eddie O'Sullivan on Newstalk on him

"Some of the ways (Jamie) has handled himself this year have been fraught but not as fraught as the headlines suggested. He got hung out to dry about something which wasn't a big deal but that's the nature of the way it works," he said.

"If he is to be the next Irish captain, he has to contain that.

"I think he has a couple of times, responded in a way that he shouldn't have responded. I think to be fair, the reaction was an overreaction but that's life.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

jm08 wrote: »

This is what the Indo say about him.

I know that. I quoted it earlier. Still no specifics.

aimee1

jm08 wrote: »

This is what the Indo say about him.

Eddie O'Sullivan on Newstalk on him

Why are certain people so determined to use any possible means to discredit one of the most successful rugby players [possibly THE most successful] we have ever produced?

So Heaslip might not be a perfect human being. Big deal

3 x HEC winner
3 x 6n winner
3 x pro 12 winner
1 x amlin winner
2 x Lions Tours [5 test appearances]

The guy is a winner. Pure and Simple.

Teferi

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

I know that. I quoted it earlier. Still no specifics.

Shure doesn't he wear headphones and socks to coin flips and stuff?

Stheno

aimee1 wrote: »

Why are certain people so determined to use any possible means to discredit one of the most successful rugby players we have ever produced?

So Heaslip might not be a perfect human being. Big deal

3 x HEC winner
3 x 6n winner
3 x pro 12 winner
1 x amlin winner
2 x Lions Tours [5 test appearances]

The guy is a winner. Pure and Simple.

I actually really like Heaslip. Not just as a player, I like how when he is in camp he does open sessions on his facebook and gives us all a small glimpse into that life, I like how he took part in the disabled challenge from Landsdowne to Thomond, and I particularly liked how he came across in that programme.

As a very weird comparison, I was in college with Ryan Tubridy, and didn't much like him though we moved in similar circles. Twenty years later, I was out with work, and Ryan was in the same pub, and not only did he remember me, he went out of his way to say "Howya Stheno, how's life" My younger work colleagues were in a bit of awe

Heaslip strikes me as the same, just a genuine bloke doing what he loves with time for people.

I genuinely don't get the hate.

Now there's a few players I've no time for whatsoever, but not Heaslip. He appears to be a genuine down to earth bloke. I often wonder if the nasty press articles are due to his success with his bar in Ballsbridge.

The Rape of Lucretia

jm08 wrote: »

At least Frankie used to give a full list of his clients.

True.

But strangely always only when he was asked one of the following questions :
- who should be called up to the Irish squad ?
- who do you think is likely to get capped in the next 6N/AI/WC ?
- who are the next generation coming through to replace these Munster liginds ?

jm08

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

I know that. I quoted it earlier. Still no specifics.

Sorry, didn't see that you quoted that piece.

My interpretation of that is he is moody, and as a team captain (the face of the team), you can't be moody when you are representing the team. For an example as to how to deal with a loss, watch Rory"s Best's interview after the loss to Munster. He comes over really well - the kind of guy you would like representing you off field.

As for specific, it seems he was a bit testy after the loss to Argentina in the after match interview. Paul O'Connell or Leo Cullen would not have behaved like that.

aimee1

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

True.

But strangely always only when he was asked one of the following questions :
- who should be called up to the Irish squad ?
- who do you think is likely to get capped in the next 6N/AI/WC ?
- who are the next generation coming through to replace these Munster liginds ?

Lol i remember a few years back on ATH he named 4 players as having a great game the previous Friday but one of them only got about 8 minutes at the end of the game

irishbucsfan

jm08 wrote: »

In the interests of transparency and fairness it should be pointed out that BOD is the second largest shareholder (after the owner) of the agency that counts Jamie Heaslip & Cian Healy among his clients.

At least Frankie used to give a full list of his clients. Wish the same applied to Ikon Talent.

It doesn't matter who they represent, everyone in the media is biased, remember?

jm08

aimee1 wrote: »

Lol i remember a few years back on ATH he named 4 players as having a great game the previous Friday but one of them only got about 8 minutes at the end of the game

Well, at least Frankie didn't take potshots at players who are not his clients

aimee1

jm08 wrote: »

Well, at least Frankie didn't take potshots at players who are not his clients

Meaning?

jm08

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

True.

But strangely always only when he was asked one of the following questions :
- who should be called up to the Irish squad ?
- who do you think is likely to get capped in the next 6N/AI/WC ?
- who are the next generation coming through to replace these Munster liginds ?

Actually, no. There is a full client list up on his website. I also think some people though he was representing people he actually wasn't, i.e., Tomas O'Leary.

jm08

aimee1 wrote: »

Lol i remember a few years back on ATH he named 4 players as having a great game the previous Friday but one of them only got about 8 minutes at the end of the game

Who were the 4 players and who was the player who got 8 minutes?

The Rape of Lucretia

jm08 wrote: »

Who were the 4 players and who was the player who got 8 minutes?

It may have been 5 actually. He was an embarrassment though. Seemed to think if he mentioned one of his stable often enough, Deccie must be watching and would favour one.

jm08

Stheno wrote: »

Now there's a few players I've no time for whatsoever, but not Heaslip. He appears to be a genuine down to earth bloke. I often wonder if the nasty press articles are due to his success with his bar in Ballsbridge.

Doesn't Sean O'Brien and the Kearney Bros have a share in that pub and they don't get any 'nasty press', in fact the press love them.

jm08

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

It may have been 5 actually. He was an embarrassment though. Seemed to think if he mentioned one of his stable often enough, Deccie must be watching and would favour one.

Name the 5.

The Rape of Lucretia

Could'a' been 6 actually.

Zzippy

[Deleted User] wrote: »

None of the Leinster lads gave Conor George the time of day because he was grossly biased.

Ah good old Conor. Where did he end up?