Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread V

Stheno

jm08 wrote: »

Doesn't Sean O'Brien and the Kearney Bros have a share in that pub and they don't get any 'nasty press', in fact the press love them.

Heaslip is far more prolific on social media though imo, I wonder if that's what the press dislike.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

jm08 wrote: »

Sorry, didn't see that you quoted that piece.

My interpretation of that is he is moody, and as a team captain (the face of the team), you can't be moody when you are representing the team. For an example as to how to deal with a loss, watch Rory"s Best's interview after the loss to Munster. He comes over really well - the kind of guy you would like representing you off field.

As for specific, it seems he was a bit testy after the loss to Argentina in the after match interview. Paul O'Connell or Leo Cullen would not have behaved like that.

Yeah, I mean if someone said Greig Laidlaw isn't a great person to face the press and cited his post Australia loss interview as a reason I'd say fair enough. Likewise suggesting Mike Brown wouldn't make a great captain and citing that hilarious post match interview in the mix zone where he said about 2 words.
Heaslip after the Argentina match just seemed a) exhausted and b) devastated.

Anyway, my point was the two separate articles accusing him of more or less the same thing fail to back the accusations up with any specific examples. It reeks of either having a personal vendetta or trying to imply they know something we don't know.

irishbucsfan

Stheno wrote: »

Heaslip is far more prolific on social media though imo, I wonder if that's what the press dislike.

There has been a dislike of him since long before he got involved with the business stuff, although that has particularly annoyed his detractors.

jm08

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Could'a' been 6 actually.

Name the 6 then

The Rape of Lucretia

jm08 wrote: »

Name the 6 then

Do you not need a recording of the show ?
I have it here somewhere. Hang on a minute and I will put it up on Youtube.

awec

Enough of this, it has nothing to do with Ireland rugby. Change the subject please.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

If any of the reasons listed in the past few posts are why some people seem to dislike Heaslip himself or the idea of him as captain it's ridiculous.

Successful sportsman invests money wisely to secure future post rugby financial stability, likes social media. What a b**tard!

Again none of that seems a valid reason to write him off as captain. It's all very strange.

jm08

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Yeah, I mean if someone said Greig Laidlaw isn't a great person to face the press and cited his post Australia loss interview as a reason I'd say fair enough. Likewise suggesting Mike Brown wouldn't make a great captain and citing that hilarious post match interview in the mix zone where he said about 2 words.
Heaslip after the Argentina match just seemed a) exhausted and b) devastated.

Anyway, my point was the two separate articles accusing him of more or less the same thing fail to back the accusations up with any specific examples. It reeks of either having a personal vendetta or trying to imply they know something we don't know.

That was one example. These press guys would have attended plenty of press conferences and he seems to be the only one they don't rate. I guess maybe he is lacking the charisma of a SOB or POC. It is pretty odd though that Heaslip is the exception considering guys like BOD have lots of successful business stuff going on at the side (D'Arcy - very popular with the press - also has an interest in a pub and the Pilates place as well).

edit: not to mention Tommy Bowe and his shoes/clothing line.

jm08

jm08 wrote: »

That was one example. These press guys would have attended plenty of press conferences and he seems to be the only one they don't rate. I guess maybe he is lacking the charisma of a SOB or POC. It is pretty odd though that Heaslip is the exception considering guys like BOD have lots of successful business stuff going on at the side (D'Arcy - very popular with the press - also has an interest in a pub and the Pilates place as well).

edit: not to mention Tommy Bowe and his shoes/clothing line.

Heaslip and Rob Kearney actually have their hands in a lot of things and are, I would suspect not far off being as successful off the pitch as they are on it.

I think most of what gets directed at Heaslip is begrudgery. He is a bit metro, quite D4 despite being from Naas and has a fair touch of hipster about him. That's more than enough for loads of people to hate him, but then he is an incredibly tough, hard working, highly disciplined and supremely talented rugby player which conflicts his detractors so then people have to force themselves to somehow take offence.

I dunno what it is, but certain people can't stand that he is the success that he is, and they reek of resentment when they write or speak about him.

Stheno

Deleted User wrote: »

Heaslip and Rob Kearney actually have their hands in a lot of things and are, I would suspect not far off being as successful off the pitch as they are on it.

I think most of what gets directed at Heaslip is begrudgery. He is a bit metro, quite D4 despite being from Naas and has a fair touch of hipster about him. That's more than enough for loads of people to hate him, but then he is an incredibly tough, hard working, highly disciplined and supremely talented rugby player which conflicts his detractors so then people have to force themselves to somehow take offence.

I dunno what it is, but certain people can't stand that he is the success that he is, and they reek of resentment when they write or speak about him.

See that's what I like about Heaslip, he's his own person, has his own profile on FB with JZ, gave time out to do that documentary, and my favourite part of that documentary was him meeting some kid who was delighted, no doubt people will say that was set up

He seems a genuine nice guy who is not a glory seeker, yet has been part of many multiple winning teams, is building a life for himself, and still there are haters.

aimee1

aimee1 wrote: »

Meaning?

Presumably, he only ever took pot shots at players that were his clients.

jm08

Deleted User wrote: »

Heaslip and Rob Kearney actually have their hands in a lot of things and are, I would suspect not far off being as successful off the pitch as they are on it.

I think most of what gets directed at Heaslip is begrudgery. He is a bit metro, quite D4 despite being from Naas and has a fair touch of hipster about him. That's more than enough for loads of people to hate him, but then he is an incredibly tough, hard working, highly disciplined and supremely talented rugby player which conflicts his detractors so then people have to force themselves to somehow take offence.

I dunno what it is, but certain people can't stand that he is the success that he is, and they reek of resentment when they write or speak about him.

The Kearney Brothers are D4 types (whatever that is!) and fairly popular. Hibsters don't care what people think about them, so effectively he is communicating 'take me or leave me.' If people are exercising the option of 'leaving him' he can't complain.

For such a high profile rugby person on a central contract, its fairly odd that he has never really featured in any of the IRFU sponsor's campaigns like BOD, Sexton, POC and now Murray & Henshaw.

The markeeters must know something.

jm08

jm08 wrote: »

For such a high profile rugby person on a central contract, its fairly odd that he has never really featured in any of the IRFU sponsor's campaigns like BOD, Sexton, POC and now Murray & Henshaw.

The markeeters must know something.

I'd say it has more to do with him retaining his image rights and not needing the extra cash. Players get paid for those endorsements even if through the IRFU which is why many of them partake.

jm08

Deleted User wrote: »

I'd say it has more to do with him retaining his image rights and not needing the extra cash. Players get paid for those endorsements even if through the IRFU which is why many of them partake.

The only reason he would retain his image rights is if he wanted to feature in something else which would be in conflct with what he is doing with IRFU. Off the top of my head, Murray features in plenty of his own stuff (like lucozade, adidas for example). POC & BOD have also had several other gigs as well (credit union, lucozade sport, Milk & Ping Energy) as well as doing the IRFU stuff.

jm08

jm08 wrote: »

The only reason he would retain his image rights is if he wanted to feature in something else which would be in conflct with what he is doing with IRFU. Off the top of my head, Murray features in plenty of his own stuff (like lucozade, adidas for example). POC & BOD have also had several other gigs as well (credit union, lucozade sport, Milk & Ping Energy) as doing the IRFU stuff.

Or that he just wants to retain his own image rights. He isn't the only high profile sports person to do this.

jm08, unbeknownst to you, you have an ace in the hole this whole time; just post Heaslip's strawberry alarm clock rap

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

jm08 wrote: »

That was one example. These press guys would have attended plenty of press conferences and he seems to be the only one they don't rate. I guess maybe he is lacking the charisma of a SOB or POC. It is pretty odd though that Heaslip is the exception considering guys like BOD have lots of successful business stuff going on at the side (D'Arcy - very popular with the press - also has an interest in a pub and the Pilates place as well).

edit: not to mention Tommy Bowe and his shoes/clothing line.

Yeah, I get what you're saying but I just don't think it's fair, or professional, to accuse a person of being all those things and not back them up with examples. Any time I've seen him face the media he's been perfectly fine. Most captains tow the company line when giving post match interviews or doing press before a game. If he's not very open or giving in other interviews it shouldn't really matter. Or that's my opinion anyway. Sexton is terrible with the media, just as an example, so boring and you never get anything out of him, yet they don't list that as a reason why he shouldn't be captain.

Obviously it doesn't matter in the long run because I seriously doubt Schmidt would let something like that influence his decision if he thinks Heaslip should be captain.

jm08

Deleted User wrote: »

Or that he just wants to retain his own image rights. He isn't the only high profile sports person to do this.

Like who? I bet you will find that if they are, they have another gig going on. Being selected by the main IRFU sponsor to do promotional work would also be fairly prestigious and good profiling for any player who gets the chance to do it.

As Heaslip is on a central contract (and seemingly one of the best paid players along with Sexton), I can't see how the IRFU would allow him to excuse himself from featuring in the main sponsor's promotional campaign.

jm08

jm08 wrote: »

Like who? I bet you will find that if they are, they have another gig going on. Being selected by the main IRFU sponsor to do promotional work would also be fairly prestigious and good profiling for any player who gets the chance to do it.

As Heaslip is on a central contract (and seemingly one of the best paid players along with Sexton), I can't see how the IRFU would allow him to excuse himself from featuring in the main sponsor's promotional campaign.

Your right, the secret that he is actually Hitler's love grandchild is about to be revealed so the IRFU don't want his image on anything.

This is the most pointless online argument I've ever let myself get sucked into. I'm out.

jm08

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Yeah, I get what you're saying but I just don't think it's fair, or professional, to accuse a person of being all those things and not back them up with examples. Any time I've seen him face the media he's been perfectly fine. Most captains tow the company line when giving post match interviews or doing press before a game. If he's not very open or giving in other interviews it shouldn't really matter. Or that's my opinion anyway. Sexton is terrible with the media, just as an example, so boring and you never get anything out of him, yet they don't list that as a reason why he shouldn't be captain.

Obviously it doesn't matter in the long run because I seriously doubt Schmidt would let something like that influence his decision if he thinks Heaslip should be captain.

Look, it would be hard to back up how POC is such a good media performer - its just gut instinct.

I always feel he is a bit awkward when in front of the cameras. If he is doing an interview representing the team, he needs to make an effort on their behalf and at least come across as being polite and respectful.

Most players give fairly boring interviews (they have all done the media training). Maybe Heaslip should try that approach. Boring and polite and not eratic as claimed in Indo report!

I think it will influence Schmidt's decision. It will make life easier for Ireland/IRFU, particularly if stuff is going wrong, if the captain can put across a positive image of the team. As well as that, as suggested above, if the IRFU don't have his image rights, he won't be captain.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

jm08 wrote: »

Look, it would be hard to back up how POC is such a good media performer - its just gut instinct.

I always feel he is a bit awkward when in front of the cameras. If he is doing an interview representing the team, he needs to make an effort on their behalf and at least come across as being polite and respectful.

Most players give fairly boring interviews (they have all done the media training). Maybe Heaslip should try that approach. Boring and polite and not eratic as claimed in Indo report!

I think it will influence Schmidt's decision. It will make life easier for Ireland/IRFU, particularly if stuff is going wrong, if the captain can put across a positive image of the team. As well as that, as suggested above, if the IRFU don't have his image rights, he won't be captain.

I still don't see how though. If he was in the habit of calling out referees or trash talking other players/teams or sexually harassing female journalists or anything along those lines then you could see why you might not want him as the public face of the national team. Not being very chatty just doesn't seem like an issue to me. There are plenty of player to do media duty alongside him that can do the chatty stuff. On field character should count for more than ability to charm the media, in my opinion.

Just to be clear I'm not advocating for Heaslip as captain, I'm just saying the reasons given in those 2 articles for why he shouldn't be seem irrelevant. If there's more to their accusations they should back them up.

jm08

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

I still don't see how though. If he was in the habit of calling out referees or trash talking other players/teams or sexually harassing female journalists or anything along those lines then you could see why you might not want him as the public face of the national team. Not being very chatty just doesn't seem like an issue to me. There are plenty of player to do media duty alongside him that can do the chatty stuff. On field character should count for more than ability to charm the media, in my opinion.

Just to be clear I'm not advocating for Heaslip as captain, I'm just saying the reasons given in those 2 articles for why he shouldn't be seem irrelevant. If there's more to their accusations they should back them up.

But its just not about being chatty (though if he is in a press conference he needs to communicate effectively with those present). From what they said in the Indo piece he can be in good form and he can be in bad form. He just can't behave like that with the media if he is Ireland's captain. As for someone else to represent the team alongside him if he doesn't want to represent the team at a press conference (all part of the job of captain), why make him captain at all if he can't or does not want to do the whole job.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

jm08 wrote: »

But its just not about being chatty (though if he is in a press conference he needs to communicate effectively with those present). From what they said in the Indo piece he can be in good form and he can be in bad form. He just can't behave like that with the media if he is Ireland's captain. As for someone else to represent the team alongside him if he doesn't want to represent the team at a press conference (all part of the job of captain), why make him captain at all if he can't or does not want to do the whole job.

Behave like what? The articles are vague. What does "bad form" entail? Quite often there's bugger all to be said at press conferences and players/coaches still have to show up and answer all the same questions.

Are they saying that when he's in "bad form" he just sits there and refuses to answer any of their questions?

What are the duties of a captain? Entertain the media on an almost daily basis during tournaments? Write their articles for them?

In my opinion a captain should be expected to talk to the media once before a game, once after. If something major has happened between games, an unexpected retirement, someone gets a massive ban, coach is sacked, then maybe they need to talk to the media again. Mainly they should be good at taking the attention/pressure off the rest of the team. Show up at whatever functions they're required at, tournament launches, the odd sponsors event etc.

At the end of the day they're athletes not pundits or PR guys.

aimee1

jm08 wrote: »

Look, it would be hard to back up how POC is such a good media performer - its just gut instinct.

I always feel he is a bit awkward when in front of the cameras. If he is doing an interview representing the team, he needs to make an effort on their behalf and at least come across as being polite and respectful.

Most players give fairly boring interviews (they have all done the media training). Maybe Heaslip should try that approach. Boring and polite and not eratic as claimed in Indo report!

I think it will influence Schmidt's decision. It will make life easier for Ireland/IRFU, particularly if stuff is going wrong, if the captain can put across a positive image of the team. As well as that, as suggested above, if the IRFU don't have his image rights, he won't be captain.

Genuine Question ... Why are you so determined to discredit Heaslip and well basically why do you have so much hate for him?

phog

aimee1 wrote: »

Genuine Question ... Why are you so determined to discredit Heaslip and well basically why do you have so much hate for him?

Is there hate in his posts? I've glanced thru the thread and read a lot about hate, begrudgery, etc. and I genuinely haven't seen and hatred towards Heaslip.

This discussion on Heaslip's suitability for Irish captaincy stemmed from two journalist's saying something very similar about his interaction with the media. I believe Shane Horgan (haven't heard it) rowed in with something similar on SC yesterday. Is he the 3rd, if he is then is this pointing to something that some here refuse to accept?

1eg0a3xv7b82of

I think this 6 nations will be a struggle. Wales are a good team, Scotland are improved and we have England and France away. I reckon fourth/fifth place.
For me, there is 4 reasons why we will struggle.
3 of these issue's are injuries/fatigue/poor form.
POM, Ross,Payne, Henshaw, Henderson all injured,
Sexton, OBrien, Murray need a long holiday,
Healy, Bowe are nowhere near their top form.

The 4th reason is the Argentina result, a thrashing like that is not easily forgot. It gets into the psyche, especially for intelligent players, its effects reaching down to the provinces and can be partly used to explain the provinces poor form in general.

Wales to win the championship and also the slam if they beat us.

aimee1

phog wrote: »

Is there hate in his posts? I've glanced thru the thread and read a lot about hate, begrudgery, etc. and I genuinely haven't seen and hatred towards Heaslip.

This discussion on Heaslip's suitability for Irish captaincy stemmed from two journalist's saying something very similar about his interaction with the media. I believe Shane Horgan (haven't heard it) rowed in with something similar on SC yesterday. Is he the 3rd, if he is then is this pointing to something that some here refuse to accept?

Well aside from putting stock in an opinion piece in the indo, and something EOS had to say, there is quite often digs at Heaslip because BOD is a shareholder in the company who represent Heaslip and it has been mentioned several times about them not publishing "full client lists" like there is some sort of obligation for them to do so, otherwise they have something to hide

Then there was another poster blaming Heaslip for the 2013 6n and Leinsters 5th place finish last season in the Pro12 because he was captain.

Just seems to be a bit OTT which little substance.

Then there is what I see as issues with him as a person because he gave 1-2 poor interviews and might not be as media savvy as others who have had more experience at provincial level as captain.

Deano7788

Just on the promotional stuff, didn't Heaslip fo that Maxinutrition campaign with Murray for the IRFU? Doesn't seem to be an issue there then.

former total

They were talking about captaincy on Off the Ball last night, as far as I can see the only issue raised with Heaslip being captain is that sometimes he doesn't like giving interviews.

Joe should decide on his captain on the following criteria:
1) Standing and respect within the squad
2) On field leadership
3) Likelihood of actually being selected

"Dealing with the media" should not come into it. At all.

Heaslip or Best, either is fine by me.

Bazzo

aimee1 wrote: »

Well aside from putting stock in an opinion piece in the indo, and something EOS had to say, there is quite often digs at Heaslip because BOD is a shareholder in the company who represent Heaslip and it has been mentioned several times about them not publishing "full client lists" like there is some sort of obligation for them to do so, otherwise they have something to hide

Then there was another poster blaming Heaslip for the 2013 6n and Leinsters 5th place finish last season in the Pro12 because he was captain.

Just seems to be a bit OTT which little substance.

Then there is what I see as issues with him as a person because he gave 1-2 poor interviews and might not be as media savvy as others who have had more experience at provincial level as captain.

Couple of points where I think you're being a little unfair here:

It's perfectly reasonable to criticise a player's agency for not publishing client lists when a major controlling interest in that agency is very involved in punditry in rugby. Naturally they will be more biased toward the players their agency handles and if you don't know who they are you're not sure how fair an evaluation of a player they may be giving at any time. It doesn't have much to do with him being captain but it's still fair.

The poster who pointed out that Heaslip was captain never blamed him for losing the 2013 6n or Leinster's season from anything I can see, at all. They just pointed out that during his tenure as captain the teams had been less successful. A combination of factors obviously leads to a team performing badly, but who are we to judge that the captain who was in place at the time isn't one of them?(I don't necessarily agree that Heaslip's captaincy was a factor btw)

jm08

aimee1 wrote: »

Genuine Question ... Why are you so determined to discredit Heaslip and well basically why do you have so much hate for him?

I've only tried to answer why Heaslip is not popular with the press. Personally the strongest emotion I would have about Heaslip is I don't warm to him and if he came on to do an interview that is probably when I would go and put the kettle on.

phog

aimee1 wrote: »

Well aside from putting stock in an opinion piece in the indo, and something EOS had to say, there is quite often digs at Heaslip because BOD is a shareholder in the company who represent Heaslip and it has been mentioned several times about them not publishing "full client lists" like there is some sort of obligation for them to do so, otherwise they have something to hide

Then there was another poster blaming Heaslip for the 2013 6n and Leinsters 5th place finish last season in the Pro12 because he was captain.

Just seems to be a bit OTT which little substance.

Then there is what I see as issues with him as a person because he gave 1-2 poor interviews and might not be as media savvy as others who have had more experience at provincial level as captain.

Some of this might be true but I really don't see the hatred that you pretty much accused jm08 of having for Heaslip.

Well aside from putting stock in an opinion piece in the indo, and something EOS had to say

So that's the Indo, EOS, Peter O'Reilly and possibly Shane Horgan all having something negative to say about Heaslip's dealings with the media.

The number of journalists/pundits seems to be growing. Is that telling?

former total wrote: »

They were talking about captaincy on Off the Ball last night, as far as I can see the only issue raised with Heaslip being captain is that sometimes he doesn't like giving interviews.

Joe should decide on his captain on the following criteria:
1) Standing and respect within the squad
2) On field leadership
3) Likelihood of actually being selected

"Dealing with the media" should not come into it. At all.

Heaslip or Best, either is fine by me.

For a captain of a national team how he deals with the media certainly should come into it.

Clegg

I've always felt that some of the negativity around Heaslip stems from him not caring much about rugby outside of the games he plays. He's said before that he has other interests outside of rugby so doesn't spend much time following the game outside Leinster/Ireland. I'm sure there are many sports men who have the exact same attitude, but Heaslip is more vocal about it. Maybe some of the more old school rugby men don't like that.

aimee1

Bazzo wrote: »

Couple of points where I think you're being a little unfair here:

It's perfectly reasonable to criticise a player's agency for not publishing client lists when a major controlling interest in that agency is very involved in punditry in rugby. Naturally they will be more biased toward the players their agency handles and if you don't know who they are you're not sure how fair an evaluation of a player they may be giving at any time. It doesn't have much to do with him being captain but it's still fair.

The poster who pointed out that Heaslip was captain never blamed him for losing the 2013 6n or Leinster's season from anything I can see, at all. They just pointed out that during his tenure as captain the teams had been less successful. A combination of factors obviously leads to a team performing badly, but who are we to judge that the captain who was in place at the time isn't one of them?(I don't necessarily agree that Heaslip's captaincy was a factor btw)

Heaslip is a client of Ikon. He is not responsible for how they conduct their business and is not relevant to who should captain the national team. His personal affairs and business interests, as well as any sponsorship/endorsements are also not relevant to the captaincy, which is a rugby issue.

They get used as a stick to beat him with, jm08 used the word "transparency" in relation to the Ikon client list. When BOD got involved with Ikon, there was a bit of media interest and in the articles they include the line about Ikon represent X/Y/Z amongst others etc.

Another poster put this up yesterday. Its pretty clear that the poster thinks Heaslip's captaincy is the reason for the 6n 2013, Leinster finishing 5th last season in pro12 and the Argentina QF defeat. The last line bringing Stander into it makes it obvious it is not a genuine opinion on why JH should not be given the captaincy, and should actually not even be in the team.

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

The biggest mark against Heaslip as a potential captain is his shocking record when given the armband. As captain, he has overseen Ireland's 5th place 6N finish, Leinster's 5th place Pro12 finish, and Ireland's recent embarrassment at the hands of Argentina. Add to that, the most impressive backrow in the country (Stander) over the last 18 months also plays 8.

For the record I think Rory Best should get it, because I believe the media stuff is a factor and he is very much what you need.

jm08

aimee1 wrote: »

Well aside from putting stock in an opinion piece in the indo, and something EOS had to say, there is quite often digs at Heaslip because BOD is a shareholder in the company who represent Heaslip and it has been mentioned several times about them not publishing "full client lists" like there is some sort of obligation for them to do so, otherwise they have something to hide

Then there was another poster blaming Heaslip for the 2013 6n and Leinsters 5th place finish last season in the Pro12 because he was captain.

Just seems to be a bit OTT which little substance.

Then there is what I see as issues with him as a person because he gave 1-2 poor interviews and might not be as media savvy as others who have had more experience at provincial level as captain.

The question was asked why Heaslip was unpopular with the press. I quoted those two pieces from indo which gives some insight as to why Heaslip is unpopular with the press.

How can you take BOD seriously as a pundit if you don't know who his client's are? For all we know Gary Ringrose is a client of his which would invalidate his recent comments that he should be brought into the international team (ahead of maybe McCluskey who isn't a client of his).

Clegg

The 2013 6N was a disaster all round. It was clear by then that Kidney was dead in the water. Fans weren't happy with the performances and the players obviously couldn't have been either. It was also clear that the head coach didn't know how to turn things around. Very similar to Leinster last season actually. Heaslip is only one player. He can't be expected to win matches by himself. I've never felt that he hasn't given it his all for Ireland or Leinster.

Bazzo

aimee1 wrote: »

Heaslip is a client of Ikon. He is not responsible for how they conduct their business and is not relevant to who should captain the national team. His personal affairs and business interests, as well as any sponsorship/endorsements are also not relevant to the captaincy, which is a rugby issue.

They get used as a stick to beat him with, jm08 used the word "transparency" in relation to the Ikon client list. When BOD got involved with Ikon, there was a bit of media interest and in the articles they include the line about Ikon represent X/Y/Z amongst others etc.

I pointed out that it was fair to criticise the agency, and went on to say that it had little to do with the captaincy. So if you'd agree that agents who are also pundits should be up front about who they represent then we're in agreement I suppose?

Another poster put this up yesterday. Its pretty clear that the poster thinks Heaslip's captaincy is the reason for the 6n 2013, Leinster finishing 5th last season in pro12 and the Argentina QF defeat. The last line bringing Stander into it makes it obvious it is not a genuine opinion on why JH should not be given the captaincy, and should actually not even be in the team.

I'm not reading it the same as you are then. While the poster certainly seems to be suggesting that Stander is a better alternative to Heaslip I don't see him blaming the losses on Heaslip. They said the greatest mark against his captaincy was that he had been in place during a couple of bad campaigns. I don't see him saying anywhere it's the only reason the team performed badly.


For the record I think Rory Best should get it, because I believe the media stuff is a factor and he is very much what you need.

.

mfceiling

If anyone thinks that Heaslip shouldn't be captain because of what someone wrote in the indo, they need to be looked at.

aimee1

jm08 wrote: »

The question was asked why Heaslip was unpopular with the press. I quoted those two pieces from indo which gives some insight as to why Heaslip is unpopular with the press.

How can you take BOD seriously as a pundit if you don't know who his client's are? For all we know Gary Ringrose is a client of his which would invalidate his recent comments that he should be brought into the international team (ahead of maybe McCluskey who isn't a client of his).

Heaslip could be unpopular with certain sections of the media because he isnt
what they look for when they interview him. Most players nowadays dont give much away because it can come back to bite them. Which maybe is why JH can be seen as awkward or distant when interviewed. BOD would always throw in the odd comment [the tomato etc] which gives them something to run with, bring up again etc

I think BOD is a OK pundit actually. I dont like his commentary at all, very bland and boring. The studio stuff with BT is very good but thats because its about the game. I fully agree, the guys they represent should be clearer but thats not the players fault in any way and is not relevant to the captaincy so should not be brought into the conversation.

BOD made a remark on twitter when Ringrose set up Nacewa in Thomond. JS doesnt pick the team based on who BOD endorses on twitter. If JS picks Ringrose then it wont be because BOD suggested it on twitter.

clsmooth

So would anyone like to see SOB get the captaincy? Quite a few in the media seem to be going for him. Not sure he'd be a great captain myself despite being out best player, I think he can let his frustration with a referee show, and with his injury profile over the last few years (although thankfully he seems to be over the shoulder issue), i'd still be a little concerned with that as well.

aimee1

Bazzo wrote: »

.

The poster said the poor performances were overseen by Heaslip when the two seasons in question were over seen by Declan Kidney, a time when the team was on a downward curve performance and results wise. The 2014-15 season was overseen by MOC. Both coaches were gone shortly after both seasons ended.

CMOTDibbler

jm08 wrote: »

The question was asked why Heaslip was unpopular with the press. I quoted those two pieces from indo which gives some insight as to why Heaslip is unpopular with the press.

The Indo.

jm08 wrote: »

How can you take BOD seriously as a pundit if you don't know who his client's are? For all we know Gary Ringrose is a client of his which would invalidate his recent comments that he should be brought into the international team (ahead of maybe McCluskey who isn't a client of his).

He's from Leinster too. That should be a double whammy in your eyes so.

If BOD was the only pundit suggesting Ringrose get a run in the international team you might have a point. But he isn't. Brent Pope has also been calling for his inclusion.

Tarf1234

jm08 wrote: »

In the interests of transparency and fairness it should be pointed out that BOD is the second largest shareholder (after the owner) of the agency that counts Jamie Heaslip & Cian Healy among his clients.

At least Frankie used to give a full list of his clients. Wish the same applied to Ikon Talent.

I don't think that's any kind of trade secret... Weird thing to take offence to

Bazzo

aimee1 wrote: »

The poster said the poor performances were overseen by Heaslip when the two seasons in question were over seen by Declan Kidney, a time when the team was on a downward curve performance and results wise. The 2014-15 season was overseen by MOC. Both coaches were gone shortly after both seasons ended.

So you're entirely blaming the coaches then? Isn't that just as unfair as entirely blaming a player?(well, maybe less so, but even still)

The point I'm making is that if a team is misfiring there can be many issues which are affecting their performances. The captain, being the main leader on the pitch, can be one of those factors, and looking at performances under him as captain critically certainly shouldn't be described as "hateful".

Anyway I think I've said all that I have to say tbh. My choices in order would be Best>Heaslip>POM for what it's worth

irishbucsfan

Tarf1234 wrote: »

I don't think that's any kind of trade secret... Weird thing to take offence to

The only way the same person can attack BOD while also defending Frankie Sheahan without admitting their provincial allegiances are driving their opinions is to find some small difference between the two and then inflate it.

CMOTDibbler

Tarf1234 wrote: »

I don't think that's any kind of trade secret... Weird thing to take offence to

Frankie Sheahan used to get a lot of stick on here for giving MoTM awards to his clients when in many cases there were far more deserving candidates.

jm08 is trying vainly to balance the books :pac:

CMOTDibbler

Bazzo wrote: »

So you're entirely blaming the coaches then? Isn't that just as unfair as entirely blaming a player?(well, maybe less so, but even still)

The point I'm making is that if a team is misfiring there can be many issues which are affecting their performances. The captain, being the main leader on the pitch, can be one of those factors, and looking at performances under him as captain critically certainly shouldn't be described as "hateful".

Anyway I think I've said all that I have to say tbh. My choices in order would be Best>Heaslip>POM for what it's worth

There are very few instances where you can actually see the influence of the on field captain on the match. Robshaw getting it wrong on three separate occasions would be one such. If a team isn't playing well for whatever reason, there's very little the captain can do about it bar upping his own game to give an example. But there's no guarantee that getting deeper into the trenches will have the rest of the troops following you to the same degree. There's very little capability in a match situation to change the game plan and have everyone follow it.

Bazzo

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

There are very few instances where you can actually see the influence of the on field captain on the match. Robshaw getting it wrong on three separate occasions would be one such. If a team isn't playing well for whatever reason, there's very little the captain can do about it bar upping his own game to give an example. But there's no guarantee that getting deeper into the trenches will have the rest of the troops following you to the same degree. There's very little capability in a match situation to change the game plan and have everyone follow it.

It's very hard to tell one way or the other how your captain is performing in that roll though. As big a fan of Muldoon as I am I don't think he's the best choice as captain at Connacht, he frequently gets on the wrong sides of refs and who knows how that affects calls throughout the game.

Heaslip certainly seems to have a calm enough head to deal with ref appropriately by the way, I'm really just playing devil's advocate as I think it's fair to look at a player critically without being accused of just bashing them.

jm08

irishbucsfan wrote: »

The only way the same person can attack BOD while also defending Frankie Sheahan without admitting their provincial allegiances are driving their opinions is to find some small difference between the two and then inflate it.

To be honest I think both Frankie and BOD are very poor pundits and don't take serious anything either would say. However, the double standards of posters here needs to be highlighted. BOD is as much fair game as Frankie is as a pundit when it comes to what they say about their clients or anyone else's client. There is a conflict of interests.

aimee1

Bazzo wrote: »

So you're entirely blaming the coaches then? Isn't that just as unfair as entirely blaming a player?(well, maybe less so, but even still)

The point I'm making is that if a team is misfiring there can be many issues which are affecting their performances. The captain, being the main leader on the pitch, can be one of those factors, and looking at performances under him as captain critically certainly shouldn't be described as "hateful".

No, but its some co-incidence that two coaches oversaw those seasons were not in charge the next season. Leinsters poor performances during the international windows in particular last season were the primary reason they missed the playoffs. There is a collective fault. Heaslip was singled out for overseeing those campaigns [in one of them, he captained Leinster to a ERCC semi final]