Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread V

irishbucsfan

jm08 wrote: »

To be honest I think both Frankie and BOD are very poor pundits and don't take serious anything either would say. However, the double standards of posters here needs to be highlighted. BOD is as much fair game as Frankie is as a pundit when it comes to what they say about their clients or anyone else's client so.

That's not really what you said in the past when people said exactly that about Frankie and you were defending him. BOD does most of his punditry for BT Sport so at least he's more removed from Ikon's clients, he's not really handing them man of the match awards in Pro 12 games every week. Are there any specific examples of him singling out Ikon's clients for praise?

The thing about these guys, and it's true as much for Sheahan as BOD, is that they're never going to criticise a player who isn't signed up, because players are all potential clients. That's not to say they might not overpraise guys who are though, as we've seen before.

CMOTDibbler

jm08 wrote: »

To be honest I think both Frankie and BOD are very poor pundits and don't take serious anything either would say. However, the double standards of posters here needs to be highlighted. BOD is as much fair game as Frankie is as a pundit when it comes to what they say about their clients or anyone else's client. There is a conflict of interests.

It's a bit patronising of you to feel you have to point this out tbh. If you have an eye in your head it would be glaringly obvious that Garry Ringrose is a very talented player in a position where we've been scratching around for a number of years to find talent.

We now have a number of options coming through and if an ex-Leinster player is hyping up a Leinster player you'd be a fool not to have a close look and see if the hype is justified.

I don't see people here swallowing what BOD says hook line and sinker without first actually analysing the value of what he says. You on the other hand constantly referred to players' MoTM awards from Frankie Sheahan as if they weren't the debased currency they were.

aimee1

jm08 wrote: »

To be honest I think both Frankie and BOD are very poor pundits and don't take serious anything either would say. However, the double standards of posters here needs to be highlighted. BOD is as much fair game as Frankie is as a pundit when it comes to what they say about their clients or anyone else's client. There is a conflict of interests.

the conversation is about Jamie Heaslip's potential as a captain. You brought up the - ikon hide their client list, Heaslip is on their books, BOD is a shareholder. Your reason for bringing it up was transparency.

I fail to see what relevance it has to Heaslip as a potential captain. To me anyway its just another angle to have a dig at Heaslip.

Tarf1234

jm08 wrote: »

To be honest I think both Frankie and BOD are very poor pundits and don't take serious anything either would say. However, the double standards of posters here needs to be highlighted. BOD is as much fair game as Frankie is as a pundit when it comes to what they say about their clients or anyone else's client. There is a conflict of interests.

If you're really worried about who IKON represent whenever BOD makes a comment on a player check their twitter and you'll usually be able to see who manages them. It appears to be costing you a lot of sleep so maybe you could check all of the Irish rugby players and compile your own list.

jm08

irishbucsfan wrote: »

That's not really what you said in the past when people said exactly that about Frankie and you were defending him. BOD does most of his punditry for BT Sport so at least he's more removed from Ikon's clients, he's not really handing them man of the match awards in Pro 12 games every week. Are there any specific examples of him singling out Ikon's clients for praise?

The thing about these guys, and it's true as much for Sheahan as BOD, is that they're never going to criticise a player who isn't signed up, because players are all potential clients. That's not to say they might not overpraise guys who are though, as we've seen before.

BOD is regularly on Newstalk and on twitter - he also does a blog on his website.

BOD was very negative about CJ Stander on BT sport for one of the champs cup games. CJ knocked-on and BOD made some comment about how Joe Schmidt wouldn't like that. Then BOD sobtly shifting the blame to Keith earls for Dave Kearney's missed tackles versus Argentina.

In fairness to Frankie and the guy from corner flag (can't think of his name now) they don't really knock anyone, client or not.

jm08

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

The Indo.


He's from Leinster too. That should be a double whammy in your eyes so.

If BOD was the only pundit suggesting Ringrose get a run in the international team you might have a point. But he isn't. Brent Pope has also been calling for his inclusion.

Sean O'Brien and Rob Kearney are from Leinster - I'd have both of them before I'd have Heaslip.

Ps - Tony award is another calling for his inclusion. By the way I have no issue with Ringrose being included in the squad. It's BOD's rationale that is a bit questionable like he himself played for Ireland before he played for Leinster.

jm08

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

There are very few instances where you can actually see the influence of the on field captain on the match. Robshaw getting it wrong on three separate occasions would be one such. If a team isn't playing well for whatever reason, there's very little the captain can do about it bar upping his own game to give an example. But there's no guarantee that getting deeper into the trenches will have the rest of the troops following you to the same degree. There's very little capability in a match situation to change the game plan and have everyone follow it.

I disagree with that. I remember BOD v England in the GS year just taking the game by the scruff of the neck to win the game.

More recently, v Scotland in World Cup game when Ireland were struggling a bit, it was noticeable how the intensity of the game was upped when POC came off the bench. Everyone seemed to just up their game.

CMOTDibbler

jm08 wrote: »

BOD was very negative about CJ Stander on BT sport for one of the champs cup games. CJ knocked-on and BOD made some comment about how Joe Schmidt wouldn't like that. Then BOD sobtly shifting the blame to Keith earls for Dave Kearney's missed tackles versus Argentina.

BOD wasn't the only one saying that if you want to cut off the pass to the wing, the centre has to push up first. It's not exactly rocket science.

CMOTDibbler

jm08 wrote: »

I disagree with that. I remember BOD v England in the GS year just taking the game by the scruff of the neck to win the game.

And Jonny Sexton turning Leinster around in the second half against Northampton. These are instances of players scoring crucial points to give their team a lift. Nothing to do with captaincy.

jm08 wrote: »

More recently, v Scotland in World Cup game when Ireland were struggling a bit, it was noticeable how the intensity of the game was upped when POC came off the bench. Everyone seemed to just up their game.

That was a warm up game. Players being a bit flat in a warm up isn't exactly news.

Mahatma Geansai

jm08 wrote: »

BOD is regularly on Newstalk and on twitter - he also does a blog on his website.

BOD was very negative about CJ Stander on BT sport for one of the champs cup games. CJ knocked-on and BOD made some comment about how Joe Schmidt wouldn't like that. Then BOD sobtly shifting the blame to Keith earls for Dave Kearney's missed tackles versus Argentina.

In fairness to Frankie and the guy from corner flag (can't think of his name now) they don't really knock anyone, client or not.

BOD is a cheer-leader for his old mates andclients. I wouldn't put much weight in his opinion. He's very similar to Sheehan in that regard, but his opinion appears to be further reaching due to his on-field exploits.

Pushing for your mates is something a lot of the pundits do; Horgan pushes for his old teammates and Wood has a blind-spot for his childhood friend Foley. However, cheering for your clients does sour things a little more.

jm08

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

BOD wasn't the only one saying that if you want to cut off the pass to the wing, the centre has to push up first. It's not exactly rocket science.

BOD has said himself that as a pundit you don't need to hang anyone out to dry. Well, he has just done that with Stander and Earls.

jm08

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

And Jonny Sexton turning Leinster around in the second half against Northampton. These are instances of players scoring crucial points to give their team a lift. Nothing to do with captaincy.

It's to do with leadership which is what a captain needs to provide.

That was a warm up game. Players being a bit flat in a warm up isn't exactly news.

They were flat until POC came on. That's what a leader does.

CMOTDibbler

jm08 wrote: »

It's to do with leadership which is what a captain needs to provide.

They were flat until POC came on. That's what a leader does.

Jonny Sexton wasn't captain.

Sean Cronin scored a try from a lineout take by Tuohy before POC came on. Scotland scored a penalty soon after and it was a superb break from Dave Kearney that led to the try that got Ireland back in front. Dave Kearney had just come on, so you could hardly say he was flat before POC came on.

Do you always make stuff up to bolster your arguments?

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

BOD is a cheer-leader for his old mates andclients. I wouldn't put much weight in his opinion. He's very similar to Sheehan in that regard, but his opinion appears to be further reaching due to his on-field exploits.

Pushing for your mates is something a lot of the pundits do; Horgan pushes for his old teammates and Wood has a blind-spot for his childhood friend Foley. However, cheering for your clients does sour things a little more.

I'd have to agree there seems to be a bit of a conflict of interest going on there. Whether it effects your work is almost irrelevant, in my opinion. If you have personal involvement or investment with a team (beyond having played for them) and/or players it calls into question everything you say, rightly or wrongly.

awec

Mod - this discussion about agents and pundits is so pointless that it ends now. Any more posts on the subject will be carded. Can we get back to discussing actual rugby please?

former total

TBH, it's impossible to know what effect a captain has. All these ideas of getting the team fired up by his very presence, or having an influence on the referee, it's all massively subjective and there's no way you can know any of this from watching TV.

Nor do you even have to be captain to do these things; O'Driscoll didn't become a peripheral figure when he lost the captaincy, just like O'Connell didn't fade into the background when POM became Munster captain.

It's all a load of spoofing. We'll see what Joe does and whatever he comes up with, that's the answer.

Moflojo

Gerry Thornley is backing O'Brien for Ireland captaincy in today's Irish Times. I don't think it's a good idea due to O'Brien's attitude and demeanour towards referees. He's always flailing his arms and roaring at referees, and while that might intimidate some weaker referees it really will wind up the more strong-willed ones such as Poite, Barnes and Owens - the key international referees.

There are natural leaders throughout the Irish squad, with O'Brien being one of them, but I think the key requirement for the Captain at test level is that he is an ambassador to the referee, and therefore remains on good terms with as many referees as possible.

Take Richie McCaw as an example. He spent his entire career pushing the boundaries of the laws but he almost always got the benefit of the doubt from referees. I think his respectful attitude towards referees did him, and his team, a lot of favours.

In contrast to this take a look at John Muldoon with Connacht. Yes he's a leader, a warrior, someone you'd follow into battle, but look at his demeanour towards referees and how frequently he gets involved in spats with them. I believe this is one of the reasons that Connacht so often get the short end of the stick when it comes to refereeing decisions - Muldoon antagonises a lot of them.

Coming back to O'Brien as Ireland captain - could he completely change his attitude towards referees if he becomes captain? I doubt it. Is there someone else in the squad who possesses the right attributes for dealing with referees along with the ability to make key tactical decisions throughout the game? Rory Best is the primary candidate in my opinion.

Clegg

I don't think we should give the captaincy to someone who got himself suspended for a World Cup quarter final for striking at someone who was giving him a bit of niggle.

colster

Clegg wrote: »

I don't think we should give the captaincy to someone who got himself suspended for a World Cup quarter final for striking at someone who was giving him a bit of niggle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9O8s5J9yjxg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xesYPKc6mkU

jm08

Clegg wrote: »

I don't think we should give the captaincy to someone who got himself suspended for a World Cup quarter final for striking at someone who was giving him a bit of niggle.

Often that can be a huge learning curve for a player. POC was red carded for something similar in a h cup game for Munster. Indeed, Heaslip was red carded for kneeing Richie McCaw a few years ago and was made captain shortly afterwards.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Moflojo wrote: »

Coming back to O'Brien as Ireland captain - could he completely change his attitude towards referees if he becomes captain? I doubt it. Is there someone else in the squad who possesses the right attributes for dealing with referees along with the ability to make key tactical decisions throughout the game? Rory Best is the primary candidate in my opinion.

Clegg wrote: »

I don't think we should give the captaincy to someone who got himself suspended for a World Cup quarter final for striking at someone who was giving him a bit of niggle.

Having read a few articles and discussions on this issue the general consensus seems to be that if Peter O'Mahony was fit at the moment there wouldn't even be a conversation happening. I don't know when he's due back, summer tour or Autumn internationals but it appears the decision at the moment is who can lead the team best in the short term and to me that should be someone with leadership experience which, to me, leaves no option other than Rory Best.

(obviously that's assuming Schmidt is of the same opinion as most of the public seem to be)

jm08

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Jonny Sexton wasn't captain.

Sean Cronin scored a try from a lineout take by Tuohy before POC came on. Scotland scored a penalty soon after and it was a superb break from Dave Kearney that led to the try that got Ireland back in front. Dave Kearney had just come on, so you could hardly say he was flat before POC came on.

Do you always make stuff up to bolster your arguments?

My recollection was that the intensity went up a couple of notches when POC came on.

CMOTDibbler

jm08 wrote: »

My recollection was that the intensity went up a couple of notches when POC came on.

Or maybe it was because the subs were coming on and adding a bit of freshness.

Don't get me wrong, POC was an excellent captain, nobody seems to have a bad word against his captaincy but that's in the past now.

Moflojo

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Having read a few articles and discussions on this issue the general consensus seems to be that if Peter O'Mahony was fit at the moment there wouldn't even be a conversation happening.

Yeah I'd agree with O'Mahony too but didn't consider him for 6N as I don't know if he'll be fit.

irishbucsfan

jm08 wrote: »

My recollection was that the intensity went up a couple of notches when POC came on.

Do you think the intensity wouldn't have gone up a couple of notches if he wasn't the captain? You don't need to be a captain in order to inspire players around you.

For me I'd have Best but it's impossible to have any real clue without being a part of the squad, it's an entirely internal thing.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Moflojo wrote: »

Yeah I'd agree with O'Mahony too but didn't consider him for 6N as I don't know if he'll be fit.

He's definitely out for the 6 Nations. No idea about the Summer tour.

jm08

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Or maybe it was because the subs were coming on and adding a bit of freshness.

Don't get me wrong, POC was an excellent captain, nobody seems to have a bad word against his captaincy but that's in the past now.

POC came on on his own. There was a visible upping of the intensity as soon as he came on.

jm08

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Do you think the intensity wouldn't have gone up a couple of notches if he wasn't the captain? You don't need to be a captain in order to inspire players around you.

For me I'd have Best but it's impossible to have any real clue without being a part of the squad, it's an entirely internal thing.

Yes. He always has that effect on his team mates - it's having this huge presence that immediately inspires confidences that people up their game.

I'm making the point to counteract that the only function of the ref on field is to talk to the ref.

sigh, why do we always have to faciliate the fantasies...

http://www.ultimaterugby.com/match/ireland-vs-scotland-at-aviva-stadium-15th-aug-2015/7147/commentary

Take from this what you wish.

irishbucsfan

jm08 wrote: »

Yes. He always has that effect on his team mates - it's having this huge presence that immediately inspires confidences that people up their game.

I'm making the point to counteract that the only function of the ref on field is to talk to the ref.

If you're saying he can have that impact without being captain then it just goes to show that it's not that important a factor in deciding who will be captain on match day. The only thing the captain does that noone else can do is deal with the ref, possibly a few other extras thrown in at professional level. Anyone can give a speech and inspire the team (IE Sexton in Cardiff).

CMOTDibbler

jm08 wrote: »

Yes. He always has that effect on his team mates - it's having this huge presence that immediately inspires confidences that people up their game.

I'm making the point to counteract that the only function of the ref on field is to talk to the ref.

And missing the point that POC is POC and whether he's captain or not, he's a huge influence on the guys around him. The same as Martin Johnston or Sergio Parisse.

jm08

irishbucsfan wrote: »

If you're saying he can have that impact without being captain then it just goes to show that it's not that important a factor in deciding who will be captain on match day. The only thing the captain does that noone else can do is deal with the ref, possibly a few other extras thrown in at professional level. Anyone can give a speech and inspire the team (IE Sexton in Cardiff).

I'm saying that it is preferable if your captain has those leadership/inspirational qualities. I don't think anyone can inspire. Not everyone can make a speech and inspire others.

jm08

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

And missing the point that POC is POC and whether he's captain or not, he's a huge influence on the guys around him. The same as Martin Johnston or Sergio Parisse.

So England/Leicester, Italy/Stade appointed inspirational players as their captain. Why did they not just appoint someone who can talk to the ref?

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Would there be an issue with Sean O'Brien as captain when he isn't on a central contract and retained his own image rights? I mean technically speaking? Does a captain have to partake in a lot of promo work?

former total

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Would there be an issue with Sean O'Brien as captain when he isn't on a central contract and retained his own image rights? I mean technically speaking? Does a captain have to partake in a lot of promo work?

I really hope it wouldn't matter, but he signed a new contract just before Christmas which I presume was a central deal?

aimee1

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Would there be an issue with Sean O'Brien as captain when he isn't on a central contract and retained his own image rights? I mean technically speaking? Does a captain have to partake in a lot of promo work?

Did SOB recently sign a new contract, was it a central one?

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

former total wrote: »

I really hope it wouldn't matter, but he signed a new contract just before Christmas which I presume was a central deal?

aimee1 wrote: »

Did SOB recently sign a new contract, was it a central one?

I didn't realise he had. I just remember someone posting that ad he did for Supermacs and saying no wonder he retained his image rights when he had such classy jobs in the pipeline

EDIT: Just googled it and yes, his new contract is a central one.

CMOTDibbler

jm08 wrote: »

So England/Leicester, Italy/Stade appointed inspirational players as their captain. Why did they not just appoint someone who can talk to the ref?

I think you're replying to me but responding to someone else

I'm merely saying that inspiration isn't necessarily the province of the captain alone.

aimee1

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

I didn't realise he had. I just remember someone posting that ad he did for Supermacs and saying no wonder he retained his image rights when he had such classy jobs in the pipeline

EDIT: Just googled it and yes, his new contract is a central one.

IIRC he previously didnt have a central contract because appearance fees for non central contract players plus personal endorsement stuff meant he could potentially earn more. A bit of a risk if a player gets injured in january and october for 3-4 weeks though.

bilston

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Would there be an issue with Sean O'Brien as captain when he isn't on a central contract and retained his own image rights? I mean technically speaking? Does a captain have to partake in a lot of promo work?

I'd hope it is Joe Schmidt's decision with a bit of input from Easterby and friends. If should be a rugby decision only.

I wasn't joking when I said you need to post this rap. I can't even listen to it to the end, it makes me cringe so much. This man is Ireland's captain

http://www.joe.ie/sport/audio-jamie-heaslip-raps-a-dope-version-of-nellys-hot-in-herre-on-fm104s-strawberry-alarm-clock/417911

shootermacg

I suppose the question is Who do you want as captain?

I have no problem with JH, but do I want him as captain? No. My reason is, he doesn't display the same intelligence as say, PoC, BoD under questioning.

If you don't know your own mind enough to cruise past these generic questions, then you aren't really displaying the social intelligence needed to get the best out of your players.

jm08

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Would there be an issue with Sean O'Brien as captain when he isn't on a central contract and retained his own image rights? I mean technically speaking? Does a captain have to partake in a lot of promo work?

His present contract (signed jan. 2014) and his next contract signed a few weeks ago are both Central irfu contracts.

I'd imagine the captain would have to make himself available to the team's main sponsors (Three) or Aviva and would be prevented from promoting companies that might present a conflict of interest or who they might not approve of. I think sexton had to drop one of his financial sponsors because it was in conflict with some of the main irfu's sponsors.

molloyjh

Leaders will lead naturally whether they are captains or not. When looking for a captain you need a guy who can lead by example, communicate well with referees, make good decisions under pressure (i.e. not Chris Robshaw), is in a good position to see what is going on generally and is one of the stronger leaders on the team.

The media considerations do matter as well in fairness, but they are way down the list of priorities.

Does Heaslip fit all of the above? If so then he should be captain. If people think he doesn't then they need to discuss which areas he is lacking in and why. Maybe then we can have a reasonable discussion on the matter.

For me I'm still not 100% sure on him as captain. I think he could be a little more forceful with refs. And while often times he doesn't need to be talkative there can be times when we're under the cosh a bit that he needs to get more vocal with the lads than he is (from what I can see of him anyway - which isn't definitive). But how are any of the other options better? In all honesty I'm not sure that they are.

We were spoiled with POC for a long time. Leaders like him do not come around that often. And how do our leaders stack up against other leaders? Generally quite well I think. How many POC type characters will there be in the 6 Nations after all? Comparing Heaslip to POC is massively unfair as it is setting a bar that few players in the game could ever reach. As long as we have a good captain and a good group of leaders throughout the team we should be fine. After all if it's down to one individual to get the team performing then we'd have far more serious problems. With Best, Heaslip, Murray, Sexton and Kearney we've a pretty strong group of leaders there.

jm08

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

I think you're replying to me but responding to someone else

I'm merely saying that inspiration isn't necessarily the province of the captain alone.

And I never claimed it was. Just a very desirable trait in your captain.

kuang1

I posted this before on another thread, but this is my 2 cents:

I for one wouldn't be too happy with Heaslip as captain. When he was captain for a time before I remember feeling uneasy about it then too.

And my reason is that he hasn't got that 'steeliness' to his persona. Or maybe as shootermacg said, there's a type of intelligence slightly lacking there. Social intelligence possibly?

Thinking of POC, BOD and Wood, these guys were able to drop the grins and smiles from their faces, and you knew then that they weren't fukking around. And you'd better listen to whatever comes out of their mouth next...
Heaslip hasn't got that. (Imo)

Is it plain old charisma maybe? Steeliness I call it but maybe charisma is more accurate.
For all of Jamie's attributes (and we all know there are many), I just didn't feel inspired with him wearing the captain's armband in the past, and wouldn't this time round either.

Best would get my vote. SOB second choice.

shuffol

But for his injury problems my preference would be SOB, he comes across as a real leader on the pitch and in the biggest games is invariably one of our top performers. I wouldn't worry about his discipline, it's rarely been an issue and I think it can help for your no.7 to have the ear of the ref. He's also very frank and honest under questioning, thinking back to the NZ game in 2013 when straight after the game he said we didn't deserve to win as we weren't good enough, made no excuses. If you place stock in your captain been the face of the rugby team then he's a great shout as he's someone widely admired and people identify with. Is public perception and media dealings really taken into account though?

Heaslip undoubtedly suffers with the general public due to his stint as captain before when he didn't come across well in his dealings with the media but again I don't know if that's something that's considered. I do think it's unfair to judge him too harshly on that though, the team was going through a rotten spell and I'm sure there must of being some unhappiness behind the scenes with the direction of the team. I'm sure he's hugely respected among his peers though, has experience of captaincy, rarely misses a game and deals with refs very well.

Best likewise though he has obvious issues keeping teammates in check and preventing them from getting themselves sent off...

sydthebeat

at the end of the day what we as supporters think / feel doesnt matter a damn when it comes to the national captain.

Heaslip has already captained his province and his country, and was touted by warren gatland as a potential lions captain... so all these top class coaches must see something in him to afford him those honours.

and for the record, i would prefer Best over all other options

Hagz

I think if Jack McGrath had a couple more seasons under his belt he'd be a pretty nice fit for captaincy.

I see it going to Best.