Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread V

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

shuffol wrote: »

Heaslip undoubtedly suffers with the general public due to his stint as captain before when he didn't come across well in his dealings with the media but again I don't know if that's something that's considered. I do think it's unfair to judge him too harshly on that though, the team was going through a rotten spell and I'm sure there must of being some unhappiness behind the scenes with the direction of the team. I'm sure he's hugely respected among his peers though, has experience of captaincy, rarely misses a game and deals with refs very well.

I can only assume this is the period of time that has a couple of journalists bent out of shape about Heaslip. I don't really remember anything off the field from that time, probably wasn't paying attention, but unless someone is being an absolute p**ck with the media it should come pretty far down on the list of qualities needed to be captain, in my opinion.

Again, I'm not campaigning for Heaslip, I'd prefer Best.

.ak

I couldn't care less who's captain if I'm being honest.

Fireball07

There are definitely more things to worry/be excited about than who is to be our new captain.



The form of Sexton is a slight worry, he's our best player but he's not been playing like that recently. Is he still undroppable? Probably... he is a step above the rest. But if he's not at the top of his game, we are not the same team.

I'd be in favour of seeing McCloskey involved during the 6N, I think he's class and his all-round game seems to be improving all the time.

I think it will be interesting to see if Stander can make the 23, or even the starting 15; he has been in great form tbf to him.

Harry FM

Ideally you'd want a captain who'd be around for the whole 4 year cycle which puts me off Heaslip or best. The obvious choice would be omahony but obviously he's not fit. I wouldnt rule out Sean obrien, he has good leadership qualities and has captained Leinster and Ireland before. For me, I'd go for best for the 6 nations, and omahony when he's back.

Larbre34

Best for me, with Rob Kearney as and Conor Murray as Vice.

People are saying it doesn't matter / they don't care who gets the job, but it does matter to new players coming into the squad. They will have respected the leadership and example of Captains all through their careers, its an important role.

mfceiling

I'm hoping to see Darragh Fanning as the next captain...

awec

It actually is important to have someone of authority on the pitch who can keep a cool head and make the right decisions. Just look at Chris Robshaw for exhibit A, a poor captain who made poor decisions. POC knew when to send the ball over the posts and when to send the ball into the corner, when to talk to a referee and when you are just going to piss him off (Robshaw was also awful at this) etc.

I would personally prefer a forward rather than a back as they tend to be closer to the action more often and therefore closer to the referee.

Noopti

The simple facts are that Heaslip has been a captain for numerous teams and for numerous coaches. They would not be picking him as a captain if he wasn't at least a "good" captain. And it is not like there haven't been any alternatives for those teams/coaches.

Sure, we can have our personal opinions on whether Heaslip should be captain or not, but to be honest they have nothing to do with his ability as a captain, as required by the coach(es). But more on our own personal preferences. I personally don't like his post match interview "style", but I certainly would not be using that as a reason to not give him the captaincy.

For me, I would like Best to be captain. But I would also be very interested in seeing SOB as captain

MLC61

I think the landscape has changed from when O'Driscoll was made captain and was captain then for the next decade. O'Connell was the automatic choice as his replacement.
Looking for a long term captain may no longer be feasible. The options are not cast iron certainties in the way O'Driscoll and subsequently O'Connell was.
In particular the back row is a lot more competitive. O'Mahoney is not assured of his place, even assuming he returns from injury the same player. Heaslip is getting to the point where he again is no longer assured of his place.

CatFromHue

awec wrote: »

It actually is important to have someone of authority on the pitch who can keep a cool head and make the right decisions. Just look at Chris Robshaw for exhibit A, a poor captain who made poor decisions. POC knew when to send the ball over the posts and when to send the ball into the corner, when to talk to a referee and when you are just going to piss him off (Robshaw was also awful at this) etc.

I would personally prefer a forward rather than a back as they tend to be closer to the action more often and therefore closer to the referee.

I think you may be looking at POC's Captaincy, certainly at the start, with some rose tinted glasses.

.ak

.ak wrote: »

I couldn't care less who's captain if I'm being honest.

Neither do I and I hope it's announced soon so the forum can move on from this utterly pathetic provincial **** fight.

b.gud

In actual Irish rugby news, Cian Healy had a minor knee surgey but is expected to be fit for the 6N

http://www.the42.ie/cian-healy-knee-operation-leinster-ireland-2532439-Jan2016/

Neil3030

Wow. I just listened to last night's Off the Ball podcast and all I heard was an exercise in self preservation by an industry (sporting media) that, let's face it, has precious little worth or purpose in the grander scheme of things. That sporting journalists are crowbarring themselves into the discussion on who should next captain a rugby team is just funny.

CMOTDibbler

mfceiling wrote: »

I'm hoping to see Darragh Fanning as the next captain...

Luke FitzGerald for me. Sure didn't he make a huge difference and lift the intensity when he came on against Argentina?

former total

Fireball07 wrote: »

There are definitely more things to worry/be excited about than who is to be our new captain.



The form of Sexton is a slight worry, he's our best player but he's not been playing like that recently. Is he still undroppable? Probably... he is a step above the rest. But if he's not at the top of his game, we are not the same team.

I'd be in favour of seeing McCloskey involved during the 6N, I think he's class and his all-round game seems to be improving all the time.

I think it will be interesting to see if Stander can make the 23, or even the starting 15; he has been in great form tbf to him.

Yeah, Sexton needs to sort it out, whatever is up with him. Murray hasn't been great either.

I want more time to judge McCloskey, more big games against the top club sides. Sarries next week will be a great audition but I think this 6N is going to be a year too early for him, especially if Payne recovers.

Stander will definitely be in the mix but there are too many good back row players for Joe to need to take a punt on him straight away. I'd expect him to be tussling with Henry for the bench.

Fireball07

former total wrote: »

Yeah, Sexton needs to sort it out, whatever is up with him. Murray hasn't been great either.

I want more time to judge McCloskey, more big games against the top club sides. Sarries next week will be a great audition but I think this 6N is going to be a year too early for him, especially if Payne recovers.

Stander will definitely be in the mix but there are too many good back row players for Joe to need to take a punt on him straight away. I'd expect him to be tussling with Henry for the bench.

With Ruddock starting?



I'm not sure Payne will be back, I wouldn't mind seeing Payne at 15 for a couple of games though. Not sure how likely that is, obviously Joe really likes Kearney.

Fireball07

Fireball07 wrote: »

With Ruddock starting?



I'm not sure Payne will be back, I wouldn't mind seeing Payne at 15 for a couple of games though. Not sure how likely that is, obviously Joe really likes Kearney.

I'll be saying this till I'm blue on the face but POM is a superb lineout forward and Ruddock is almost certainly the best of the other contenders in that area (along with all his other qualities). Considering the emphasis we put on the set piece I'd say that's what Schmidt will go with. Time will tell.

Journeyman_1

Harley Uptight Light wrote: »

I'll be saying this till I'm blue on the face but POM is a superb lineout forward and Ruddock is almost certainly the best of the other contenders in that area (along with all his other qualities). Considering the emphasis we put on the set piece I'd say that's what Schmidt will go with. Time will tell.

I'd add that Ruddock is no slouch in the carrying department either!

Bazzo

b.gud mentioned it over in the Connacht thread but I don't think it's been said here yet: Linley MacKenzie tweeted today saying Henshaw is going for an x-ray on Tuesday(not sure if today or next week) and that they're hopefully he'll get the all clear after. In any case he'll be back well before the 6 nations.

Journeyman_1

Journeyman_1 wrote: »

I'd add that Ruddock is no slouch in the carrying department either!

He's good at a load of different things. But I think the lineout is what will nail it for him.

The Rape of Lucretia

.ak wrote: »

I couldn't care less who's captain if I'm being honest.

Most sensible comment on the whole issue.


Far too much made of it. The interest dates from the amateur days when coaching and squad work work a fraction of todays, and having a leader, whether by example, in motivation, or by on pitch off the cuff decision making and stategy, mattered. It was also valued for its honourific element which fitted with the amateur ethos or recognition, role models, unpaid ambassadors, etc.
These days, they are all highly motivated, skilled professionals, with no stone left unturned in group synergy, knowing your role, and out there carrying our the scripted, drilled routines of a whole army of backteam staff, analysts, skills coaches, and fitness expert.
Captain is not much more than - the guy allowed to talk to the ref.

Rory Best is the clear public favourite in the vote at the bottom of Murray Kinsella's article

http://www.the42.ie/ireland-captain-rory-best-peter-omahony-2532315-Jan2016/

irishbucsfan

Deleted User wrote: »

Rory Best is the clear public favourite in the vote at the bottom of Murray Kinsella's article

http://www.the42.ie/ireland-captain-rory-best-peter-omahony-2532315-Jan2016/

He was also a unanimous winner of a recent poll conducted amongst irishbucsfans

gally74

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Rory Best is the clear public favourite in the vote at the bottom of Murray Kinsella's article

http://www.the42.ie/ireland-captain-rory-best-peter-omahony-2532315-Jan2016/

Pity he wasn't given it going into the Argentina game, a mistake from Joe!!! And didn't help going into that game

eire4

Bazzo wrote: »

b.gud mentioned it over in the Connacht thread but I don't think it's been said here yet: Linley MacKenzie tweeted today saying Henshaw is going for an x-ray on Tuesday(not sure if today or next week) and that they're hopefully he'll get the all clear after. In any case he'll be back well before the 6 nations.

Great news if he gets the all clear. Hopefully with enough time for him to get some game time with Connacht before the 6 nations starts.

CMOTDibbler

gally74 wrote: »

Pity he wasn't given it going into the Argentina game, a mistake from Joe!!! And didn't help going into that game

That captain's armband makes all the difference between being visible and invisible.

gally74

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

That captain's armband makes all the difference between being visible and invisible.

Well more important for the team around the captain

Yeah_Right

I find the captaincy discussion quite interesting as a kiwi. The ABs went through a period of ropey/unpopular captains. Randell and Oliver were tagged as future AB captains from a young age yet never cut the mustard. Blackadder was probably the best captain in the country but wasn't even in the top 5 locks so shouldn't have been in the team.

Reuben Thorne reminds me a lot of Heaslip. Won lots of trophies, was loved by coaches and team mates but never won over the public and media. Both as a player and as captain. I'm not sold on Heaslip as a captain and I can't really explain why. I think he's a great player but just not sure about him as a captain.

No one in the Irish squad jumps out to me as the obvious choice. A lot of people here have made some good points about the qualities a captain needs. I believe inspiration isn't as vital as respect of his peers and refs. A cool head and ability to deal with refs. He needs to know the laws of the game as well as any ref so he can query him intelligently.

irishbucsfan

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

That captain's armband makes all the difference between being visible and invisible.

Wait are you saying Rory Best was invisible in the Argentina game?

To be honest I think his performance in the time he was on the field was the best performance of any Irish player throughout the tournament, he was hitting consecutive defensive rucks repeatedly. He was outstanding. Surely I'm misunderstanding what you meant here.

Fireball07

Harley Uptight Light wrote: »

I'll be saying this till I'm blue on the face but POM is a superb lineout forward and Ruddock is almost certainly the best of the other contenders in that area (along with all his other qualities). Considering the emphasis we put on the set piece I'd say that's what Schmidt will go with. Time will tell.

That's a fair point. I'm a huge Ruddock fan in any case, I just wouldn't be totally sure that Joe would pick him ahead of Henry or Stander. Obviously his lineout prowess is a factor which should be taken into account.

AbusesToilets

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Luke FitzGerald for me. Sure didn't he make a huge difference and lift the intensity when he came on against Argentina?

Earls would do it better tho :pac:

AbusesToilets

Speaking of Ruddock, he'd be one I could see as Captain down the line. Been one at pretty much every level he's played, to include Leinster.

CMOTDibbler

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Wait are you saying Rory Best was invisible in the Argentina game?

To be honest I think his performance in the time he was on the field was the best performance of any Irish player throughout the tournament, he was hitting consecutive defensive rucks repeatedly. He was outstanding. Surely I'm misunderstanding what you meant here.

Sarcasm alert.

He was on the pitch. The poster seems to think being captain would have upped his influence somehow.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Sarcasm alert.

He was on the pitch. The poster seems to think being captain would have upped his influence somehow.

I would think if you're a natural leader you will naturally lead. Only difference the non existent armband makes is marking you out for the referee to communicate with/to. And decisions to kick or scrum.

jacothelad

Stheno wrote: »

Only in a team with a solid kicker, kicking is Jacksons great great weakness imo

His kicking percentages are on a par with Sexton's. Around 80%

former total

So Jared Payne is a "few weeks" away from returning, according to Doak. Wales game is four and a half weeks away.

Could make things interesting.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

former total wrote: »

So Jared Payne is a "few weeks" away from returning, according to Doak. Wales game is four and a half weeks away.

Could make things interesting.

Very interesting. Henshaw isn't back yet either. His injury shouldn't have affected his ability to stay fit but he will be lacking game time.

What's the bigger risk? Playing Henshaw and Payne straight out of rehab, so to speak, or starting McCloskey over one of them (most likely Payne)?

Zzippy

former total wrote: »

So Jared Payne is a "few weeks" away from returning, according to Doak. Wales game is four and a half weeks away.

Could make things interesting.

The answer is McCloskey and Henshaw

MB678

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Speaking of Ruddock, he'd be one I could see as Captain down the line. Been one at pretty much every level he's played, to include Leinster.

I agree with this.

I think Sean O'Brien should be captain for this 6N. Players want to play for him and is constantly on the front foot.

jacothelad

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Which also shows how taking your measure from really fast wingers is just dreaming. Who have we had even before Hickey ? M Kiernan, Geogheghan, O'Reilly ?
4 quick guys in 60 years.

Kiernan played most of his games at centre but he was seriously fast. There have been a lot of very fast guys who have played on the wing for Ireland. You don't do them justice.

The Rape of Lucretia

jacothelad wrote: »

Kiernan played most of his games at centre but he was seriously fast. There have been a lot of very fast guys who have played on the wing for Ireland. You don't do them justice.

In the spirit of this thread lately :

name them.

jacothelad

swiwi_ wrote: »

Does pecker mean something else in Ireland?

Yes. To 'keep your pecker up' means to keep positive, not become a flasher.

aimee1 wrote: »

is there a point to this? Our best winger, Bowe was injured in 2014. Trimble stepped up. Scored a few tries and had a hand in a few others

A lot of Trimble's caps were also as a sub, possibly only playing a few minutes in a game. I would suspect that Bowe was rarely a sub and rarely subbed off. The actual playing minutes of both players would be vastly different.

molloyjh

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Very interesting. Henshaw isn't back yet either. His injury shouldn't have affected his ability to stay fit but he will be lacking game time.

What's the bigger risk? Playing Henshaw and Payne straight out of rehab, so to speak, or starting McCloskey over one of them (most likely Payne)?

Luke Fitz. At 12 & 13.

jacothelad

Bazzo wrote: »

Just out of interest, how are these calculated? It's not a straight average since, for example, Craig Gilroy couldn't have scored 3.6 points in 6 matches.

I think you are ignoring the hat trick he scored v. Fiji.

S12b

former total wrote: »

So Jared Payne is a "few weeks" away from returning, according to Doak. Wales game is four and a half weeks away.

Could make things interesting.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Very interesting. Henshaw isn't back yet either. His injury shouldn't have affected his ability to stay fit but he will be lacking game time.

What's the bigger risk? Playing Henshaw and Payne straight out of rehab, so to speak, or starting McCloskey over one of them (most likely Payne)?

Henshaw has only missed 5 games. Plus he is expected back either this weekend or next so he should have 2 games under his belt before Wales. I'd have no concerns with him being rusty.

I can't see Payne being involved. I'd be very surprised if he plays for Ulster in the next few weeks and Joe has consistently shown he doesn't pick guys who haven't played for a prolonged period.

For me, I'd love to see McCloskey and Henshaw in the centre with Fitzgerald/Trimble/Earls on the wings. Don't want to see Fitz or Earls in the centre.

errlloyd

Luke wing, mccloskey and Ringrose centre, henshaw fullback. (that is me in fantasy land I'd probably want another outrageous speeder on the other wing like Gilroy or Healy) Jackson at out half.

Im not saying it will be the team, I don't even know if it would be any good. But I think it could be dangerous.

Clegg

errlloyd wrote: »

Luke wing, mccloskey and Ringrose centre, henshaw fullback. (that is me in fantasy land I'd probably want another outrageous speeder on the other wing like Gilroy or Healy) Jackson at out half.

Im not saying it will be the team, I don't even know if it would be any good. But I think it could be dangerous.

McCloskey and Ringrose would definitely be something the Welsh couldnt prepare for. I'm sort of worried we'll end up with Fitzgerald and Earls at centre. Could get very ugly with Roberts and Davies running at them.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Clegg wrote: »

McCloskey and Ringrose would definitely be something the Welsh couldnt prepare for. I'm sort of worried we'll end up with Fitzgerald and Earls at centre. Could get very ugly with Roberts and Davies running at them.

If Schmidt goes with Earls in the centre again, regardless of who is injured, he should be sacked.

former total

Zzippy wrote: »

The answer is McCloskey and Henshaw

Noel Reid's injury opens the door for McCloskey alright.

Hopefully he and Fitzgerald keep up their form in the next few weeks and we have genuine options. Fitz doesn't seem to be a popular choice here but he's playing great rugby at 12.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

former total wrote: »

Noel Reid's injury opens the door for McCloskey alright.

Hopefully he and Fitzgerald keep up their form in the next few weeks and we have genuine options. Fitz doesn't seem to be a popular choice here but he's playing great rugby at 12.

Playing Fitzgerald on the wing seems the best option to me. He's been one of the few players involved in the WC, at Leinster anyway, who has actually been in good form since. If you have someone like McCloskey who only plays 12 it's hard to see a logical reason for not playing him if the other person in question can play somewhere else.

Obviously that's going with one of Payne/Henshaw not being available.