Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread V

MJohnston

Rightwing wrote: »

True enough.

Also from that chart, to win the world cup, a team needs to be heading in as GS winners.

One occurrence does not make a predictable pattern.

.ak

Doesn't seem to be much chat on the appointment of Andy Farrell. What do people make of that?

Rightwing

MJohnston wrote: »

One occurrence does not make a predictable pattern.

Correct.

But what it does highlight is, if you can't beat all the teams in Europe, what chance have you in beating the best teams in the world?

The ABs can come up here and do the clean sweep, that 2003 Eng team could go down there and beat the ABs.

Rightwing

.ak wrote: »

Doesn't seem to be much chat on the appointment of Andy Farrell. What do people make of that?

There is an A Farrell thread.

MJohnston

Rightwing wrote: »

Correct.

But what it does highlight is, if you can't beat all the teams in Europe, what chance have you in beating the best teams in the world?

The ABs can come up here and do the clean sweep, that 2003 Eng team could go down there and beat the ABs.

It doesn't really highlight that at all to be honest, as I said, it's just 1 single occurrence, not a pattern. It just highlights that Grand Slams are becoming rarer, as a number of teams become far more competitive than in the past.

b.gud

.ak wrote: »

Doesn't seem to be much chat on the appointment of Andy Farrell. What do people make of that?

Why would we discuss something that affects the national team as a whole when there are petty squabbles about why winger X is Crap and winger Y, who I prefer, is 100 times better :rolleyes:

CMOTDibbler

Rightwing wrote: »

True enough.

Also from that chart, to win the world cup, a team needs to be heading in as GS winners.

It's an interesting point but probably just a statistical anomaly that since 2003 there hasn't been a grand slam winner in the three subsequent RWC years.

Edit: Actually England's dominance in the 6N leading up to the 2003 RWC is more likely to be a reason that they won it. In the 4 years including 2003, they had the GS, two championship wins and a runners up slot. That kind of sustained dominance has its own momentum.

aimee1

Leandro Round Billboard wrote: »

Shontayne Hape also holds a championship medal, there is many average players who have won 6 nation championship medals.
Dave Kearney does not belong in a green jersey, unless he transfers to a club who wear green jerseys.:)

And ruddock??

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

.ak wrote: »

Doesn't seem to be much chat on the appointment of Andy Farrell. What do people make of that?

Personally I'm pretty annoyed that Simon Zebo wasn't given a fair chance to show what he could do as a defensive coach.

sydthebeat

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Personally I'm pretty annoyed that Simon Zebo wasn't given a fair chance to show what he could do as a defensive coach.

we'd have our players skipping before they hit the tackle ! :P

Noopti

Rightwing wrote: »

I've seen nothing to convince me the Schmidt is capable of delivering a GS. There will always be excuses.

Out of interest, what do you need to see to convince you of this possibility?

What are the key components needed to win a grandslam? I always thought it came down to a good team playing well, with a winning gameplan, combined with a favourable fixture list, favourable refereeing appointments and a nice bit of luck thrown in for good measure. But I am looking forward to seeing what you feel has been missing for Ireland, as for me the margins between Ireland winning a GS and winning a championship have been pretty small the past couple of seasons.

aimee1

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Personally I'm pretty annoyed that Simon Zebo wasn't given a fair chance to show what he could do as a defensive coach.

Has Rala been replaced yet ???

bilston

.ak wrote: »

Doesn't seem to be much chat on the appointment of Andy Farrell. What do people make of that?

I just hope people give him a chance. I don't know if it is a good appointment or not, he seems to have a wielded a lot of power with England but this time he is working with a coach with a lot of success in his CV so it may be a different dynamic. I'll judge him on results.

Rightwing

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

It's an interesting point but probably just a statistical anomaly that since 2003 there hasn't been a grand slam winner in the three subsequent RWC years.

Edit: Actually England's dominance in the 6N leading up to the 2003 RWC is more likely to be a reason that they won it. In the 4 years including 2003, they had the GS, two championship wins and a runners up slot. That kind of sustained dominance has its own momentum.

Valid point, but it also means we haven't seen any great European team in a world cup year since that 2003 Eng team.

sydthebeat

Rightwing wrote: »

Valid point, but it also means we haven't seen any great European team in a world cup year since that 2003 Eng team.

we havent seen any 6N team have dominance for a sustained period since that 03 team.... and they went into the wilderness after that.. only winning 10 of the next 20 6N games.

Ireland, England, Wales and to some degree France have all been fairly equal over the last 6-7 years, which is what makes a GS incredibly hard to achieve.. and not without an enormous amount of luck

former total

sydthebeat wrote: »

we havent seen any 6N team have dominance for a sustained period since that 03 team.... and they went into the wilderness after that.. only winning 10 of the next 20 6N games.

Ireland, England, Wales and to some degree France have all been fairly equal over the last 6-7 years, which is what makes a GS incredibly hard to achieve.. and not without an enormous amount of luck

Yep. We could have lost three games in 2009 but we squeaked through them. There was no great design or tactical plan, just how the games panned out.

stephen_n

galwaylad14 wrote: »

I'm convinced that if Matt Healy was playing exactly as he has been this season for any other province he'd be in with a shout of starting in the 6 nations. He'd certainly be in the squad anyway.

I could never see what Dave Kearney offered. Just because he's very unspectacular in attack people seem to assume he must be very solid everywhere else but I've never been convinced he's any more dependable at the basics than Zebo or Fitzgerald.
Also there's the famous stat from the Argentina game: Attempted 9 tackles and missed 5 of them.
I think a stat like that just proves how out of his depth he is in international rugby

So your answer is bring in a winger who hasn't even proven himself at European level, seems legit.

Leandro Round Billboard wrote: »

Ruddock is meant to be a 6 put played 7 to a good standard, Ruddock is a talented strong player and while I know 6 and 7 are not locks, Ruddock could do it.

Dave Kearney point is a fact, proven by a group of men who wear blue and white strip jerseys. Thats life.

I'm not sure you understand this, so I'll explain. Rugby is a TEAM sport, that relies on systems not individuals. Against Argentina those systems failed, or rather the Pumas found a way to beat them. This left DK exposed, yes he could have done better, but no it proves nothing beyond what can happen on a rugby pitch, if you can create space to attack into.

Podge_irl

Rightwing wrote: »

The difference between winning a GS and a championship simply can't be overstated.

Do they get different medals and a different trophy?

CMOTDibbler

Rightwing wrote: »

Valid point, but it also means we haven't seen any great European team in a world cup year since that 2003 Eng team.

The stats don't seem to point to 6N success as a barometer for doing well at a RWC.

RWC Year|Nation (Place)|5/6N wins
1987|France (2nd)|1986,1987
1991|England (2nd)|1991
1995|France (3rd)|1993
1999|France (2nd)|1997, 1998
2003|England (1st)|2000, 2001, 2003
2007|England (2nd)|Zip
2011|France (2nd)|2010 (GS)
2015|Ehhh...|N/A


So with the exceptions of 1987, 1999 and 2003 there's been no real form guides from the 6N. England came second in 2007 with absolutely no 6N form at all. France came second in 2011 with one 6N win (a GS) in the previous four outings and last year doesn't have any of the 6N better than 5th.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Given England are the only 6 Nations team to win a World Cup I'd say not being in the 6 Nations at all is more conducive to doing well at a World Cup.

jm08

stephen_n wrote: »

So your answer is bring in a winger who hasn't even proven himself at European level, seems legit.



I'm not sure you understand this, so I'll explain. Rugby is a TEAM sport, that relies on systems not individuals. Against Argentina those systems failed, or rather the Pumas found a way to beat them. This left DK exposed, yes he could have done better, but no it proves nothing beyond what can happen on a rugby pitch, if you can create space to attack into.

So you are saying its a coaching issue/game plan then if the system fails?

bilston

Equally but for a single missed tackle in the 78th minute against Vincent bloody Clerc we'd have won a GS in 2007.

The margins between success and failure are tiny.

CMOTDibbler

former total wrote: »

Yep. We could have lost three games in 2009 but we squeaked through them. There was no great design or tactical plan, just how the games panned out.

It could be argued that there was a lot more consistency in the EOS years and a fair bit of bad luck tbh.

Year|Place
2002|3rd
2003|2nd
2004|2nd
2005|3rd
2006|2nd (pts)
2007|2nd (pts)
2008|4th
2009|1st (GS)
2010|2nd
2011|3rd
2012|3rd
2013|5th
2014|1st (pts)
2015|1st (pts)

Journeyman_1

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

It could be argued that there was a lot more consistency in the EOS years and a fair bit of bad luck tbh.

Year|Place
2002|3rd
2003|2nd
2004|2nd
2005|3rd
2006|2nd (pts)
2007|2nd (pts)
2008|4th
2009|GS
2010|2nd
2011|3rd
2012|3rd
2013|5th
2014|1st (pts)
2015|1st (pts)

Looking at that list really makes it funny to think about the level of bitching and moaning that has gone on about the team in the last 2 years when in reality we have been spoiled with honours that would have been killed for 10 years ago.

jm08

bilston wrote: »

Equally but for a single missed tackle in the 78th minute against Vincent bloody Clerc we'd have won a GS in 2007.

The margins between success and failure are tiny.

France are a shambles now compared to what they were then. They knocked NZ out of the World Cup that year.

Both England and France have disimproved considerably in the last few years. Wales have been consistently good (back to back championships 3 years ago, one of them a grand slam).

Neil3030

Just listened to Second Captains from Monday night and the more I think about it, the more I agree with Horgan that Conor Murray should get the captaincy. He is a long term option and handles the media well. He will also be attracting a lot of interest from abroad and the captaincy could be something to help keep him in the country.

former total

bilston wrote: »

Equally but for a single missed tackle in the 78th minute against Vincent bloody Clerc we'd have won a GS in 2007.

The margins between success and failure are tiny.

So by the logic of this thread, John Hayes cost us a Grand Slam?

former total

former total wrote: »

So by the logic of this thread, John Hayes cost us a Grand Slam?

He should never be seen in an Ireland jersey again.

thomond2006

former total wrote: »

So by the logic of this thread, John Hayes cost us a Grand Slam?

leakyboots

CatFromHue wrote: »

Fitzgerald and Zebo are completely different players.

Zebo is a finisher who doesn't really create much whereas Fitzgerald is much more creative, he's able to play 12 to a high level for example, but can't finish anywhere near as good as Zebo.

You mustn't watch Zebo play much, he pops up all over the field 'cos of his level of passing, often at 10. He's far more than just a poacher.

Teferi

Neil3030 wrote: »

Just listened to Second Captains from Monday night and the more I think about it, the more I agree with Horgan that Conor Murray should get the captaincy. He is a long term option and handles the media well. He will also be attracting a lot of interest from abroad and the captaincy could be something to help keep him in the country.

That's an interesting call. I would support him getting the captaincy myself, seems like a bit of a leader and has a head on his shoulders.

CMOTDibbler

Journeyman_1 wrote: »

Looking at that list really makes it funny to think about the level of bitching and moaning that has gone on about the team in the last 2 years when in reality we have been spoiled with honours that would have been killed for 10 years ago.

If you really want to see bad results, just look back a bit further

Year (5N)|Place|Coach|Year (6N)|Place|Coach
1982|1st|TK|||
1983|1st (Joint)|WJMB|||
1984|5th|WJMB|2000|3rd|WG
1985|1st|MD|2001|2nd|WG
1986|5th|MD|2002|3rd|EOS
1987|2nd|MD|2003|2nd|EOS
1988|4th (Joint)|JD|2004|2nd|EOS
1989|4th|JD|2005|3rd|EOS
1990|4th|CF|2006|2nd (pts)|EOS
1991|4th|CF|2007|2nd (pts)|EOS
1992|5th|CF|2008|4th|EOS
1993|3rd|GM|2009|1st (GS)|DK
1994|4th|GM|2010|2nd|DK
1995|4th|GM|2011|3rd|DK
1996|5th|MK|2012|3rd|DK
1997|5th|BA|2013|5th|DK
1998|5th|WG|2014|1st (pts)|JS
1999|4th|WG|2015|1st (pts)|JS


TK: Tom Kiernan
WJMB: Do you really need to ask?
MD: Mick Doyle
JD: Jim Davidson
CF: Ciaran FitzGerald
GM: Gerry Murphy
MK: Murray Kidd
BA: Brian Ashton
WG: Warren Gatland

Clearlier

Neil3030 wrote: »

Just listened to Second Captains from Monday night and the more I think about it, the more I agree with Horgan that Conor Murray should get the captaincy. He is a long term option and handles the media well. He will also be attracting a lot of interest from abroad and the captaincy could be something to help keep him in the country.

Is he a leader though? There was a point during the match against Argentina when I thought he was going to take control and drag us over the line but he just faded away. Still decent but there was an opportunity to take control of that game that I think a natural leader would have grabbed with both hands. Best followed by POM still seems the right call to me.

CMOTDibbler

Clearlier wrote: »

Is he a leader though? There was a point during the match against Argentina when I thought he was going to take control and drag us over the line but he just faded away. Still decent but there was an opportunity to take control of that game that I think a natural leader would have grabbed with both hands. Best followed by POM still seems the right call to me.

Like out half, I don't think scrum halves should be given the role of captain. Too much going on in their own job to be distracted by other issues. Part of the leadership team no doubt, but captain is too much of a distraction.

Apart from the general refereeing low opinion of gabby scrum halves.

salmocab

Cant see Murray getting it, I would think it unlikely that he will pick outside of Heaslip, Best and maybe if he's looking beyond this season POM. Any of those 3 would do me or indeed someone like Murray, I think a lot around here get caught up in thinking the guy from their province would be best or saving that its okay for Leinster/Munster supporters to say Best but as we aren't involved in the Irish squad its impossible for us to tell. The only insight we get is journalists saying what they have heard or pushing their own pathetic agendas. I don't care if Heaslip, if he's made captain doesn't play ball with the journos whenever they want, so long as he does the business on the pitch and at training.

jm08

With both the Ireland and England captaincy up for grabs, there is a fair bit of discussion about the role of the captain.

The commentary is that Eddie Jones is reluctant to continue with Chris Robshaw,"because he wants someone who does more than lead by example. He is looking for a captain to set the tone, to rouse his team-mates and get them in the faces of the opposition."

Murray Kinsella says in an article today that one of the reason why Schmidt wants Farrell is because he is a good orator/motivator and fill the void of the loss of Paul O'Connell.

Perhaps the best insight is from an article in the Irish Times yesterday by Andy McGeady which sites academic studies on Team Leadership:

In ‘The Myth of the Team Captain as Principal Leader’, a 2014 paper published in the Journal of Sports Sciences, Katrien Fransen et al examined the importance of four components of sports team leadership.



Task leaders and motivational leaders were perceived to be most important, in that order: executing a gameplan, issuing instructions and motivating team-mates to do what’s necessary on the day to make something positive happen, no matter what the odds.



The next two roles are primarily conducted away from the field: social leaders, who have the emotional intelligence to ensure the group functions as a successful social unit; and lastly, external leaders, who serve and help control outside pressures and interests.

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/ireland-captaincy-debate-leader-will-always-need-his-officer-corps-1.2486011

The research says that a captain does not have to everything, that others in the team can fulfil the duty of different tasks. (an example of this would have been from the Lions video where you see POC fairly prominentaly doing the motivational prematch stuff, and Warburton doing it by deed on the pitch).

They do come to the conclusion though that the captain has to be good with the External stuff.

But when it comes to being the captain of an elite sports team, the external, including the media, is a mandatory part of the gig. Press conferences and interviews, functions and launches. Be a good face for the team, deflect pressure from others; perhaps on occasion, even be interesting. Sponsors like a good face, and elite sport has a lot of sponsors to keep happy.

aimee1

jm08 wrote: »

So you are saying its a coaching issue/game plan then if the system fails?

SoB. A very good defender

Jared Payne. An excellent defender who makes really good decisions and hits. Also great organiser from what i have seen of him in green

POM. Another very good defender

Johnny Sexton. A very good defender. Organiser.

POC. A very good defender, captain and leader.


So two midfield defence organisers and three guys who always get stuck in in defence and at breakdowns. Our defence was in ribbons and they were playing candy crush in the stands as Argentina ripped us apart out wide with quick ruck ball. Its not difficult to figure out.

aimee1

aimee1 wrote: »

SoB. A very good defender

Jared Payne. An excellent defender who makes really good decisions and hits. Also great organiser from what i have seen of him in green

POM. Another very good defender

Johnny Sexton. A very good defender. Organiser.

POC. A very good defender, captain and leader.


So two midfield defence organisers and three guys who always get stuck in in defence and at breakdowns. Our defence was in ribbons and they were playing candy crush in the stands as Argentina ripped us apart out wide with quick ruck ball. Its not difficult to figure out.

If you had told me a month before the WC that we would play a 1/4 final with Madigan at 10 and Earls at 13 and none of POM, POC, SOB available I'd not have been all that excited about the world cup to be honest. I felt my hope draining away during the France game as we continued to lose not just any squad members, but the most critical squad members in continuous succession.

And then when SOB got banned I felt we were in terrible trouble for the 1/4.

Having said all that, it's quite clear that despite all the injuries and loss of key players - the main reason we lost is because Dave Kearney was picked ahead of Simon Zebo.

jm08

aimee1 wrote: »

SoB. A very good defender

Jared Payne. An excellent defender who makes really good decisions and hits. Also great organiser from what i have seen of him in green

POM. Another very good defender

Johnny Sexton. A very good defender. Organiser.

POC. A very good defender, captain and leader.

So two midfield defence organisers and three guys who always get stuck in in defence and at breakdowns. Our defence was in ribbons and they were playing candy crush in the stands as Argentina ripped us apart out wide with quick ruck ball. Its not difficult to figure out.

I thought we were discussing missing out on a Grand Slam?

jm08

Deleted User wrote: »

If you had told me a month before the WC that we would play a 1/4 final with Madigan at 10 and Earls at 13 and none of POM, POC, SOB available I'd not have been all that excited about the world cup to be honest. I felt my hope draining away during the France game as we continued to lose not just any squad members, but the most critical squad members in continuous succession.

And then when SOB got banned I felt we were in terrible trouble for the 1/4.

Having said all that, it's quite clear that despite all the injuries and loss of key players - the main reason we lost is because Dave Kearney was picked ahead of Simon Zebo.

Well, Luke Fitz made a very positive impact on the game when he came on, so yes, Zebo could have been the difference. We will never know now though.

phog

molloyjh wrote: »

You blame the loss of the GS on the try. You blame the try on DK. Ergo you blame the loss of the GS on DK. It's inaccurate and quite obviously a lazy with hunt. I could blame Murray or Best for creating the hole if I was so predisposed, but the thing is the winning and losing of a game is not decided on single moments like that.

Whether I blame him directly or indirectly what I've said is not a witch hunt.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

jm08 wrote: »

With both the Ireland and England captaincy up for grabs, there is a fair bit of discussion about the role of the captain.

The commentary is that Eddie Jones is reluctant to continue with Chris Robshaw,"because he wants someone who does more than lead by example. He is looking for a captain to set the tone, to rouse his team-mates and get them in the faces of the opposition."

Murray Kinsella says in an article today that one of the reason why Schmidt wants Farrell is because he is a good orator/motivator and fill the void of the loss of Paul O'Connell.

Perhaps the best insight is from an article in the Irish Times yesterday by Andy McGeady which sites academic studies on Team Leadership:



http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/ireland-captaincy-debate-leader-will-always-need-his-officer-corps-1.2486011

The research says that a captain does not have to everything, that others in the team can fulfil the duty of different tasks. (an example of this would have been from the Lions video where you see POC fairly prominentaly doing the motivational prematch stuff, and Warburton doing it by deed on the pitch).

They do come to the conclusion though that the captain has to be good with the External stuff.

Going with this logic, which appears pretty sound, chances are on any given match day we'd have Heaslip, Best and O'Brien on the pitch anyway. So the "lead by example" part is covered by other players. You could almost argue it's not all that important who the actual captain is in that respect, as long as it's someone who the players respect and has a sound head on his shoulders.

Neil3030

I presume it will be whoever can stomach the most yards of ale. In which case the captaincy will be O'Brien's until Henderson comes back from injury. Jack McGrath with an outside shout.

aimee1

jm08 wrote: »

Well, Luke Fitz made a very positive impact on the game when he came on, so yes, Zebo could have been the difference. We will never know now though.

Yesterday you claimed fitz was average and pointed out he missed a tackle when he played against argentina.

Today you say fitz made a very positive impact when he came on. Now which is it cos im confused.

Bazzo

Neil3030 wrote: »

I presume it will be whoever can stomach the most yards of ale. In which case the captaincy will be O'Brien's until Henderson comes back from injury. Jack McGrath with an outside shout.

If Mike Ross was fit I'd say that'd be game over for the rest.

CatFromHue

Neil3030 wrote: »

I presume it will be whoever can stomach the most yards of ale. In which case the captaincy will be O'Brien's until Henderson comes back from injury. Jack McGrath with an outside shout.

It used to be a yard of Poitin, until 4 men died one year

jm08

aimee1 wrote: »

Yesterday you claimed fitz was average and pointed out he missed a tackle when he played against argentina.

Today you say fitz made a very positive impact when he came on. Now which is it cos im confused.

He was average up to that game in the world cup - which is why he was on the bench, rather than starting.

He did make a positive impact off the bench when he came on for Tommy Bowe although he did miss the only tackle he attempted.

CMOTDibbler

jm08 wrote: »

He was average up to that game in the world cup - which is why he was on the bench, rather than starting.

He did make a positive impact off the bench when he came on for Tommy Bowe although he did miss the only tackle he attempted.

He was benching because he was the best option between himself and Zebo.

Now I have to say a novena for mentioning the 'Z' word. Damn you jm08. :pac:

Quint2010

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

If you really want to see bad results, just look back a bit further

Year (5N)|Place|Coach|Year (6N)|Place|Coach
1982|1st|TK|||
1983|1st (Joint)|WJMB|||
1984|5th|WJMB|2000|3rd|WG
1985|1st|MD|2001|2nd|WG
1986|5th|MD|2002|3rd|EOS
1987|2nd|MD|2003|2nd|EOS
1988|4th (Joint)|JD|2004|2nd|EOS
1989|4th|JD|2005|3rd|EOS
1990|4th|CF|2006|2nd (pts)|EOS
1991|4th|CF|2007|2nd (pts)|EOS
1992|5th|CF|2008|4th|EOS
1993|3rd|GM|2009|1st (GS)|DK
1994|4th|GM|2010|2nd|DK
1995|4th|GM|2011|3rd|DK
1996|5th|MK|2012|3rd|DK
1997|5th|BA|2013|5th|DK
1998|5th|WG|2014|1st (pts)|JS
1999|4th|WG|2015|1st (pts)|JS


TK: Tom Kiernan
WJMB: Do you really need to ask?
MD: Mick Doyle
JD: Jim Davidson
CF: Ciaran FitzGerald
GM: Gerry Murphy
MK: Murray Kidd
BA: Brian Ashton
WG: Warren Gatland

EOS??

Bazzo

Quint2010 wrote: »

EOS??

Eddie O'Sullivan