Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread V

jm08

Journeyman_1 wrote: »

is it important that Heaslip didnt get picked once over 8 years ago when he was 23/24?

Heaslip must have thought so because he has bitched about not being selected.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

jm08 wrote: »

Heaslip must have thought so because he has bitched about not being selected.

Did he bitch? Or did he admit he was annoyed at not being selected? Would you rather a player who was perfectly happy to be left out of a squad?

jm08

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Did he bitch? Or did he admit he was annoyed at not being selected? Would you rather a player who was perfectly happy to be left out of a squad?

He talks about it here. He took it very hard.

http://www.the42.ie/jamie-heaslip-eddie-osullivan-2007-2320802-Sep2015/

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

jm08 wrote: »

He talks about it here. He took it very hard.

http://www.the42.ie/jamie-heaslip-eddie-osullivan-2007-2320802-Sep2015/

I assumed that was what you were referring to. I wouldn't call that bitching. It's exactly the attitude I'd want a professional athlete to have.

It obviously mattered to him that he wasn't picked 8 years ago but it has no relevance to anything that's happening now.

Hagz

Jesus. Eddie O'Sullivan does not come off well at all in that piece.

irishbucsfan

jm08 wrote: »

No. It's not. He only got selected because Easterbys legs were gone and Leamy could play blindside. Lucky for him Leamy was versatile because Leamy was having one of his best seasons ever.

Yeah I'm sure his excellent form at Leinster had nothing to do with it. It's a good thing Rocky Elsom was versatile as well eh?

PTH2009

This 6 nations campaign could be a write off for us considering that farell is taking over as defensive coach after it and whatever mistakes our defense does in the competition we can always just say ' not to worry our new coach will sort it out'.

A scary thought here but we could be waiting til March 12th for our first win when we play Italy at home. We play Wales day 1, France day 2 and England day 3. All very hard games

jm08

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

I assumed that was what you were referring to. I wouldn't call that bitching. It's exactly the attitude I'd want a professional athlete to have.

It obviously mattered to him that he wasn't picked 8 years ago but it has no relevance to anything that's happening now.

That article is on mature reflection of this year - but he admits in the article that he did have a '***k you attitude and he did bitch about it a few years ago.

To paraphrase - he now appreciates that you have to think of the team first of all and not just yourself.

thomond2006

PTH2009 wrote: »

This 6 nations campaign could be a write off for us considering that farell is taking over as defensive coach after it and whatever mistakes our defense does in the competition we can always just say ' not to worry our new coach will sort it out'.

A scary thought here but we could be waiting til March 12th for our first win when we play Italy at home. We play Wales day 1, France day 2 and England day 3. All very hard games

New Year's Resolution for you PTH: Positivity.

ClanofLams

Neil3030 wrote: »

Against a team where we don't need a mop-up man as badly, i'd love to see a back row of

6. SOB
7. JVDF
8. CJS

With maybe TOD on the bench.

Lovely balance and not to mention ball carrying, DEAR GOD THE BALL CARRYING.

VdF is a serious prospect but I'd like him to spend another while developing physically before hopefully making his debut next autumn, think he's still a fraction light for 6N.

Jamie Heaslip is the most under appreciated player in the country, there's a certain segment who will never warm to him for whatever reason. Started at 8 for 5/6 last lions test but listening to some on here you would think he's an average provincial player.

Edit - 2nd para is a general point, not directed at you Neil.

Journeyman_1

jm08 wrote: »

Heaslip must have thought so because he has bitched about not being selected.

But what does it have to do with how he is playing now? Or is this just something negative you can say about him for whatever your reasons are?

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

jm08 wrote: »

That article is on mature reflection of this year - but he admits in the article that he did have a '***k you attitude and he did bitch about it a few years ago.

To paraphrase - he now appreciates that you have to think of the team first of all and not just yourself.

I don't really understand your point though? 8 years ago at the start of his international career he had a hard time dealing with a massive disappointment and had a bit of an attitude. An attitude which obviously didn't affect his rugby too much because he was starting in the next 6 Nations. And what? You want to hold this against him now?

jm08

Hagz wrote: »

Jesus. Eddie O'Sullivan does not come off well at all in that piece.

He was very rough dropping Anthony foley from captaining ireland as easterby was sick to be dropped out of the 23 by text when easterby was fit enough to play!

irishbucsfan

thomond2006 wrote: »

New Year's Resolution for you PTH: Positivity.

Let's not fix what isn't broking. Keep doomsaying PTH and we might keep winning Championships!

jm08

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Yeah I'm sure his excellent form at Leinster had nothing to do with it. It's a good thing Rocky Elsom was versatile as well eh?

Not sure what your point is but
1. Munster won the Heineken cup v Toulouse that season and Leamy was fantastic at no 8 although he had moved to Blindside for ireland.
2. Rocky Elsom came the following season 08-09 to Leinster.
3. Elssom has only 4 caps at no 8 for Aus out of his 70+ caps.

jm08

Journeyman_1 wrote: »

But what does it have to do with how he is playing now? Or is this just something negative you can say about him for whatever your reasons are?

Go back and read the posts again to find that answer.

jm08

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

I don't really understand your point though? 8 years ago at the start of his international career he had a hard time dealing with a massive disappointment and had a bit of an attitude. An attitude which obviously didn't affect his rugby too much because he was starting in the next 6 Nations. And what? You want to hold this against him now?

He had an attitude which a lot of people picked up on then which probably made him appear a bit arrogant and which has stuck.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

jm08 wrote: »

Go back and read the posts again to find that answer.

I've read back through them and I still can't find a point.

This is how the conversation has gone:

post - Heaslip has been capped multiple times by all these very successful coaches. They can't all be wrong.

jm08 - But he didn't make the WC squad in 2007!

post - Does 2007 matter now in 2016?

jm08 - Obviously because it mattered to Heaslip in 2007, enough to bitch about.

post - Wasn't really bitching though, was it? Still don't see the relevance to 2016?

jm08 - Go back and read the posts again to find that answer.

Neil3030

ClanofLams wrote: »

Jamie Heaslip is the most under appreciated player in the country, there's a certain segment who will never warm to him for whatever reason. Started at 8 for 5/6 last lions test but listening to some on here you would think he's an average provincial player.

Edit - 2nd para is a general point, not directed at you Neil.

I think he's class. A nailed on starter against teams that pose any manner of pressure or breakdown threat. A guy who slows down time on both sides of the ball and keeps things running smoothly. I also admire his take-me-or-leave-me attitude. I think there are better candidates for the captaincy, both short and long term, but I completely agree with you on how undervalued he is. I want to see the all-action back row I suggested above only against a team that we can afford to throw caution to the wind.

jm08

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

I've read back through them and I still can't find a point.

This is how the conversation has gone:

post - Heaslip has been capped multiple times by all these very successful coaches. They can't all be wrong.

jm08 - But he didn't make the WC squad in 2007!

post - Does 2007 matter now in 2016?

jm08 - Obviously because it mattered to Heaslip in 2007, enough to bitch about.

post - Wasn't really bitching though, was it? Still don't see the relevance to 2016?

jm08 - Go back and read the posts again to find that answer.

The multiple coaches included EOS who we now know didn't rate Heaslip that highly and another one of these coaches dropped him from the LIons because he wasn't doing enough of the nitty gritty stuff in the tight.

That's a fair old dint to his credentials being presented here.

Edit: and he whinged about BOD getting all the sympathy and he none when they were both dropped from the Lions final test.

Hagz

"When I came home everybody was like, 'Well done on the Lions tour – but isn't it terrible about Brian?' I was like, 'Yeah, I feel for the guy.'

"Brian is on a different level to everybody else in terms of public affection in Ireland. He's like royalty, so I wasn't surprised at the reaction.

If this is the quote you're referring too, then your description of 'whinged' is unwarranted.

jm08

Hagz wrote: »

If this is the quote you're referring too, then your description of 'whinged' is unwarranted.

This comes across as very whingy to me:

When I came home everybody was like, 'Well done on the Lions tour – but isn't it terrible about Brian?' I was like, 'Yeah, I feel for the guy.'

Hagz

I don't see anything in his comment saying he wanted more sympathy than he received or jealousy for the sympathy O'Driscoll received. Just an acknowledgement that the uproar surrounding O'Driscoll's exclusion dwarfed everything else, including his exclusion. I inferred the 'Yeah, I feel for the guy' to mean that he wasn't as wrapped up in BOD's exclusion because he was too busy getting over his own exclusion. Which would be far from whinging.

The thing to always bear in mind with quotes as well is that they are always preceded by a question, and that they are selected at the editors will. The player isn't choosing to talk about whatever topic they are talking about, whoever asked the question is. And the questions can be very specific at times. We are totally blind to the context of interviews such as the one in question. You can't put much stock in them at all.

ClanofLams

jm08 wrote: »

This comes across as very whingy to me:

When I came home everybody was like, 'Well done on the Lions tour – but isn't it terrible about Brian?' I was like, 'Yeah, I feel for the guy.'

Jesus talk about clutching at straws/ looking for an excuse to put down a guy who has won a Grand Slam, 2 6Ns, Lions Series and multiple Heineken cups. What a load of nonsense.

I don't classify what he said as whinging, but even if it were Ronan O'Gara was well able to have a whinge, doubt you have commented on that though.

aimee1

jm08 wrote: »

This comes across as very whingy to me:

When I came home everybody was like, 'Well done on the Lions tour – but isn't it terrible about Brian?' I was like, 'Yeah, I feel for the guy.'

what is your opinion on ROG's crying on tv in the rwc 2011 when he was benched behind sexton?

Guys, why are you engaging with this rubbish?

phog

This thread is dreadful

aimee1

jm08 wrote: »

EOS Left him at home for the 07 World Cup and Gatland dropped him out of the 23 on the Lions.

How many other players have started 5 of the last 6 Lions tests? List wouldnt be that long.

jm08 wrote: »

Nearly all the pundits have said that Heaslip raised his game and that the competition was good for him.

Pundits dont necessarily get things right just because they are on TV. Heaslips performance was good, and if players did lift themselves, it was a collective as it is a derby.

sydthebeat

Sometimes trollop shouldn't be just accepted because it's childish, it should be called out and exposed for what it is at every opportunity.

Saying gatland didn't rate Heaslip is complete rubbish as he was considering him for lions captain. Gatland reverted to type for the last test.

And as for the "whinging" comments, Jesus Christ !

Hagz

sydthebeat wrote: »

Sometimes trollop shouldn't be just accepted because it's childish, it should be called out and exposed for what it is at every opportunity.

+1

I know I said like three posts up we shouldn't engage but I'm genuinely interested to see the next time jm08 puts forward the fact Zebo got a late call up to a Lions tour (and played no tests) as a reason for him to be in the Ireland team, having just tried to dismiss Heaslip having made two tours starting 5 tests.

molloyjh

PTH2009 wrote: »

This 6 nations campaign could be a write off for us considering that farell is taking over as defensive coach after it and whatever mistakes our defense does in the competition we can always just say ' not to worry our new coach will sort it out'.

A scary thought here but we could be waiting til March 12th for our first win when we play Italy at home. We play Wales day 1, France day 2 and England day 3. All very hard games

DOOOOOOOM!

molloyjh

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

I don't really understand your point though? 8 years ago at the start of his international career he had a hard time dealing with a massive disappointment and had a bit of an attitude. An attitude which obviously didn't affect his rugby too much because he was starting in the next 6 Nations. And what? You want to hold this against him now?

I'd have more respect for Heaslip after reading that. He had maybe a less than constructive attitude at 22 (which is very young) and he learned from it and developed into a more rounded person because of it. He showed real self awareness in the interview, which is something a lot of people could do with!

The guy has a good head on his shoulders but the begrudgery and the provincially biased will never like him. There's no point in getting worked up over them.

aimee1

molloyjh wrote: »

I'd have more respect for Heaslip after reading that. He had maybe a less than constructive attitude at 22 (which is very young) and he learned from it and developed into a more rounded person because of it. He showed real self awareness in the interview, which is something a lot of people could do with!

The guy has a good head on his shoulders but the begrudgery and the provincially biased will never like him. There's no point in getting worked up over them.

On the Lions thing, one thing which is telling is McGeechan and Gatland have no provincial bias so the fact they selected him to start 5 out of 6 tests tells its own story. There is no doubting the selection.

On the subject of vdF getting a game for Ireland, he's got big Chris Henry to work his way ahead of too!

With POM out, it would be interesting to see if we'd go for the 'Dual 7s' approach and have SOB and Henry start at 6&7 alright.

We lose a lot at lineout time without POM there though, he does far better than he should standing at the front of defensive lineouts!

Podge_irl

I have a fair bit of difficulty seeing past 4 of SOB/Heaslip/Ruddock/Henry/Stander being involved in any of the matchday squads to be honest.

Bazzo

How has Ruddock been doing since his return from injury? I always thought he looked promising enough but I haven't seen enough Leinster games this year to judge. He's still quite young too isn't he? Early 20s?

CMOTDibbler

Podge_irl wrote: »

I have a fair bit of difficulty seeing past 4 of SOB/Heaslip/Ruddock/Henry/Stander being involved in any of the matchday squads to be honest.

We might see the bench slot rotated a bit. VdF and/or Stander will probably get their first start from the bench, but probably later in the competition given the difficulty of the first three games.

There's been a lot of dismissing of England and France on this thread (Wales are a given), but all that is based on past performance. The kind of moves that Guy Noves and Eddie Jones are making (more particularly Noves so far) would have me worried.

We could see some very exciting stuff from France. We're somewhat lucky that we meet them in the second match before (hopefully) they get their new structures honed.

Podge_irl

Podge_irl wrote: »

I have a fair bit of difficulty seeing past 4 of SOB/Heaslip/Ruddock/Henry/Stander being involved in any of the matchday squads to be honest.

Totally agree. You could go a step further in fact:

Heaslip and O'Brien of that list of 5 are the only two that you would say are guaranteed to start in the big games.

Stander is probably the stand out of the remaining 3 in terms of carrying and maybe work rate (not seen enough of Henry to say otherwise so feel free to correct).

Ruddock however as has been pointed out is a more like for like replacement for POM and balances out our set piece nicely.

It's good to be in this situation, especially if we end up shipping injuries. Feel bad for Jordi Murphy and Tommy O'Donnell, they were both exceptional in our game against England last year and may not feature at all this six nations.

VDF may not break into the match day this year. He looks like a super prospect, but right now is probably behind Jordi and Tommy along with the above 5 and maybe even a few others.

We're not going to reinvent the wheel this six nations, just try out a couple of new spokes and look to win the thing first and foremost, while expanding the squad as a secondary emphasis.

Clegg

Bazzo wrote: »

How has Ruddock been doing since his return from injury? I always thought he looked promising enough but I haven't seen enough Leinster games this year to judge. He's still quite young too isn't he? Early 20s?

He's 25 now and his form is as good as it was last season when he was pushing for a starting position in the test side. He'd have a lot more caps now if it weren't for injury.

awec

Deleted User wrote: »

Totally agree. You could go a step further in fact:

Heaslip and O'Brien of that list of 5 are the only two that you would say are guaranteed to start in the big games.

Stander is probably the stand out of the remaining 3 in terms of carrying and maybe work rate (not seen enough of Henry to say otherwise so feel free to correct).

Ruddock however as has been pointed out is a more like for like replacement for POM and balances out our set piece nicely.

It's good to be in this situation, especially if we end up shipping injuries. Feel bad for Jordi Murphy and Tommy O'Donnell, they were both exceptional in our game against England last year and may not feature at all this six nations.

VDF may not break into the match day this year. He looks like a super prospect, but right now is probably behind Jordi and Tommy along with the above 5 and maybe even a few others.

We're not going to reinvent the wheel this six nations, just try out a couple of new spokes and look to win the thing first and foremost, while expanding the squad as a secondary emphasis.

Henry is a pure ball hog and tackle machine. Really he's just a constant annoying bollocks for the opposition. He doesn't offer much in terms of carrying the ball so if he is playing at 7 you need big ball carriers at 6 and 8. His lack of ball carrying is why he's unlikely to ever start ahead of SOB in the big games.

I don't think Murphy will feature because we don't need him when we have all the specialists fit and available. He's not at the same level as the likes of Ruddock, Henry and probably TOD. I'd put VDF above Murphy as well to be honest.

CMOTDibbler

awec wrote: »

Henry is a pure ball hog and tackle machine. Really he's just a constant annoying bollocks for the opposition. He doesn't offer much in terms of carrying the ball so if he is playing at 7 you need big ball carriers at 6 and 8. His lack of ball carrying is why he's unlikely to ever start ahead of SOB in the big games.

I don't think Murphy will feature because we don't need him when we have all the specialists fit and available. He's not at the same level as the likes of Ruddock, Henry and probably TOD. I'd put VDF above Murphy as well to be honest.

Murphy does have a bit more ball-carrying ability, but otherwise he's a step below the others. JVdF is a tackling and turnover machine. His tackling stats are off the scale: Last four matches his stats were Connacht 24/0, Toulon 19/1, Toulon 19/0, Ulster 18/0.

Podge_irl

Deleted User wrote: »

Totally agree. You could go a step further in fact:

Heaslip and O'Brien of that list of 5 are the only two that you would say are guaranteed to start in the big games.

Yeah, it's basically 1 from the other 3 to start and 1 to bench.

awec

Podge_irl wrote: »

Yeah, it's basically 1 from the other 3 to start and 1 to bench.

It'll be two of Henry, SOB and Ruddock starting with the other one on the bench.

Heaslip and Stander will either start or not be involved I reckon.

Podge_irl

awec wrote: »

It'll be two of Henry, SOB and Ruddock starting with the other one on the bench.

Heaslip and Stander will either start or not be involved I reckon.

I don't think there is any real chance of Stander starting ahead of Heaslip (though admittedly I've not seen a huge amount of the former).

I would tend to agree with you though. I definitely don't see Heaslip benching - in some ways Henry makes the most sense as sub as SOB can cover 6/8 from the field.

jm08

ClanofLams wrote: »

Jesus talk about clutching at straws/ looking for an excuse to put down a guy who has won a Grand Slam, 2 6Ns, Lions Series and multiple Heineken cups. What a load of nonsense.

I don't classify what he said as whinging, but even if it were Ronan O'Gara was well able to have a whinge, doubt you have commented on that though.

It's an effort to explain why Heaslip is a bit of a devisive figure in Irish rugby unlike players like Sean OBrien, Stephen Ferris or David Wallace who are hugely popular and universally liked.

It's not my fault that he isn't universally loved or rated.

awec

Podge_irl wrote: »

I don't think there is any real chance of Stander starting ahead of Heaslip (though admittedly I've not seen a huge amount of the former).

I would tend to agree with you though. I definitely don't see Heaslip benching - in some ways Henry makes the most sense as sub as SOB can cover 6/8 from the field.

If we're picking a first choice side I'd agree, Heaslip starts for me.

Will Heaslip play all 5 games though? We all know he is capable of doing it as his conditioning is freakish, but I wouldn't mind seeing Stander get a go at some stage (I am uncomfortable with the project player thing but it's inevitable he'll be capped at this stage).

sydthebeat

jm08 wrote: »

It's an effort to explain why Heaslip is a bit of a devisive figure in Irish rugby unlike players like Sean OBrien, Stephen Ferris or David Wallace who are hugely popular and universally liked.

It's not my fault that he isn't universally loved or rated.

Fez? you really dont know a lot do you .....

jm08

aimee1 wrote: »

On the Lions thing, one thing which is telling is McGeechan and Gatland have no provincial bias so the fact they selected him to start 5 out of 6 tests tells its own story. There is no doubting the selection.

He was lucky that Parisse wasn't eligible as there were no other decent 8s around that time.

Podge_irl

awec wrote: »

If we're picking a first choice side I'd agree, Heaslip starts for me.

Will Heaslip play all 5 games though? We all know he is capable of doing it as his conditioning is freakish, but I wouldn't mind seeing Stander get a go at some stage (I am uncomfortable with the project player thing but it's inevitable he'll be capped at this stage).

If he's made captain he's obviously gong to start every game. I wouldn't mind seeing a bit of rotation - he's basically owned that 8 jersey for 8 seasons now - but Schmidt doesn't really rotate for rotations sake.