Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread V

jm08

sydthebeat wrote: »

Fez? you really dont know a lot do you .....

I know that in the popular vote for who should be Irish captain on the Indo's site, Heaslip doesn't get a lot of votes.

MJohnston

jm08 wrote: »

I know that in the popular vote for who should be Irish captain on the Indo's site, Heaslip doesn't get a lot of votes.

bilston

sydthebeat wrote: »

Fez? you really dont know a lot do you .....

I don't remember Ferris being unpopular?

CMOTDibbler

jm08 wrote: »

I know that in the popular vote for who should be Irish captain on the Indo's site, Heaslip doesn't get a lot of votes.

Do you do nothing else but trawl the internet looking for dirt on Heaslip?

CatFromHue

the only vote for who should be Captain that should be taken in any way seriously is from the players.

everyone else is either guessing and/or picking their favourite players.

former total

Podge_irl wrote: »

I have a fair bit of difficulty seeing past 4 of SOB/Heaslip/Ruddock/Henry/Stander being involved in any of the matchday squads to be honest.

Yeah, pretty much.

Jordi Murphy might be in the mix, hasn't looked great since the RWC but Joe has always been a fan.

jm08

Harley Uptight Light wrote: »

I know I said like three posts up we shouldn't engage but I'm genuinely interested to see the next time jm08 puts forward the fact Zebo got a late call up to a Lions tour (and played no tests) as a reason for him to be in the Ireland team, having just tried to dismiss Heaslip having made two tours starting 5 tests.

I wasn't the one who introduced the Lions in the first place, though it would put Zebo ahead of d Kearney if you want to use the sme criteria for selection as Heaslip. Making a tour is still better than not making one.

awec

Heaslip has always been a divisive figure and I suspect always will be. I think as a player he is under rated by some and over rated by others. He's a very good number 8 but is not very flashy and usually doesn't end up in the spotlight as much as the two guys playing beside him in the back row. He isn't known for line busting runs but at the same time he is hardly every turned over and is good for setting up quick ball for the next phase. He's also great at the back of a scrum.

Very typical Schmidt player, solid without doing much spectacular. I think he's a good player, I would personally continue to pick him ahead of Stander for most games.

He's kept the Irish 8 jersey for ages which shows he's good but at the same time he is one of a few Irish players who have had absolutely no competition for their place for most of that time. Which isn't really a measure of how good he is, more a measure of how shallow our depth is, we still have no test level 8s outside of 32 year old Heaslip and foreign-import Stander. Conan might be the heir apparent but his problem is he is behind Heaslip at provincial level as well so won't get the same amount of game time as he otherwise would.

I guess the argument can be made that if Conan can't displace Heaslip at Leinster then how can he displace him at test level. Fair enough argument. On the other hand you could say that if Conan were playing 8 every week (at say, Ulster, even if it was just for a year or two before returning to Leinster) would that be more beneficial for Ireland as he's more likely to be knocking on the door quicker.

LostArt

The last few pages of this thread have completely changed my mind on the captaincy. I've gone from not caring about who gets it to really hoping it's Heaslip.

LostArt

LostArt wrote: »

The last few pages of this thread have completely changed my mind on the captaincy. I've gone from not caring about who gets it to really hoping it's Heaslip.

I still don't care.

former total

awec wrote: »

Heaslip has always been a divisive figure and I suspect always will be. I think as a player he is under rated by some and over rated by others. He's a very good number 8 but is not very flashy and usually doesn't end up in the spotlight as much as the two guys playing beside him in the back row. He isn't known for line busting runs but at the same time he is hardly every turned over and is good for setting up quick ball for the next phase. He's also great at the back of a scrum.

It's mad though, a few years ago, the bolded bits would have been the exact opposite of how Heaslip was regarded. "Show pony" etc. He's adapted his game brilliantly I think, as the game itself has changed.

He's a divisive figure because he comes across as a bit of a prat sometimes but he is absolutely world-class, and he is unquestionably the most consistent player we've had in recent years.

I think Stander will be a great addition to the Irish squad but I cannot see him displacing Heaslip, at least for a couple of years.

awec

former total wrote: »

It's mad though, a few years ago, the bolded bits would have been the exact opposite of how Heaslip was regarded. "Show pony" etc. He's adapted his game brilliantly I think, as the game itself has changed.

He's a divisive figure because he comes across as a bit of a prat sometimes but he is absolutely world-class, and he is unquestionably the most consistent player we've had in recent years.

I think Stander will be a great addition to the Irish squad but I cannot see him displacing Heaslip, at least for a couple of years.

I think the show pony thing was more about his appearance, lifestyle and demeanor than how he played.

Coloured boots, arriving to games with headphones, flashy car, his businesses etc. All of which are fairly common nowadays so it's less of an issue.

He came onto the scene at a time when rugby salaries were starting to separate players from the average person and was probably one of the first huge earners in the game in this country and seemed to get a bit of stick about it.

S12b

Am I the only one who thinks 6 is the position we should be looking at Stander in?

O'Brien and Heaslip are test Lions and hugely proven and experienced internationals. Then you have Ruddock, Henry and O'Donnell next in line. I'd put Jordi Murphy another tier down.

IMO, the strongest combination of the above is:

1) Stander/SOB/Heaslip
2) Ruddock/SOB/Heaslip
3) SOB/Henry or TOD/Heaslip

For me, you put your three best backrow players on the pitch and as far as I'm concerned that's Stander, SOB and Heaslip.....huge carrying ability while you still will get plenty of dirty work from that trio....lineout options may be the only drawback to that trio.

CMOTDibbler

awec wrote: »

I think the show pony thing was more about his appearance, lifestyle and demeanor than how he played.

Coloured boots, arriving to games with headphones, flashy car, his businesses etc. All of which are fairly common nowadays so it's less of an issue.

Nah, it was this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lrMHgMX-bs

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Peter Stringer could still do a job for Ireland, I reckon.

irishbucsfan

S12b wrote: »

Am I the only one who thinks 6 is the position we should be looking at Stander in?

O'Brien and Heaslip are test Lions and hugely proven and experienced internationals. Then you have Ruddock, Henry and O'Donnell next in line. I'd put Jordi Murphy another tier down.

IMO, the strongest combination of the above is:

1) Stander/SOB/Heaslip
2) Ruddock/SOB/Heaslip
3) SOB/Henry or TOD/Heaslip

For me, you put your three best backrow players on the pitch and as far as I'm concerned that's Stander, SOB and Heaslip.....huge carrying ability while you still will get plenty of dirty work from that trio....lineout options may be the only drawback to that trio.

I agree with this, and I think it's how we'll end up playing.

We might see Stander on the bench at first because you have guys like Ruddock and Henry who have played a lot of rugby under Joe and excelled, makes it less necessary to rush Stander into the starting team.

The question then is what do you do when POM is fit again? I'd imagine the ideal fully fit starting XXIII would see Stander on the bench with POM/SOB/Heaslip starting. Stander's versatility is a massive addition to the squad, particularly if he's a test quality player (as the likelihood of having all these guys fit at the same time is quite low).

CMOTDibbler

S12b wrote: »

Am I the only one who thinks 6 is the position we should be looking at Stander in?

O'Brien and Heaslip are test Lions and hugely proven and experienced internationals. Then you have Ruddock, Henry and O'Donnell next in line. I'd put Jordi Murphy another tier down.

IMO, the strongest combination of the above is:

1) Stander/SOB/Heaslip
2) Ruddock/SOB/Heaslip
3) SOB/Henry or TOD/Heaslip

For me, you put your three best backrow players on the pitch and as far as I'm concerned that's Stander, SOB and Heaslip.....huge carrying ability while you still will get plenty of dirty work from that trio....lineout options may be the only drawback to that trio.

Ruddock is a very good lineout operator.

CatFromHue

awec wrote: »

I think the show pony thing was more about his appearance, lifestyle and demeanor than how he played.

Coloured boots, arriving to games with headphones, flashy car, his businesses etc. All of which are fairly common nowadays so it's less of an issue.

He came onto the scene at a time when rugby salaries were starting to separate players from the average person and was probably one of the first huge earners in the game in this country and seemed to get a bit of stick about it.

No, the show pony thing was mostly due to how he played.

I don't think it's anything to do with his salary either as he had the term applied to him very soon after he came on the scene.

Mahatma Geansai

Heaslip is a very good player with a very well rounded skillset, but he lacks the few standout attributes the best backrows tend to have; SOB and POM would be the Irish example of the next level up. Stander has the standout attributes, but we need to see if he is as good at the nuts and bolts as Heaslip.

Personally, I feel that Stander has developed/is developing the well rounded skillset required, and should be able to earn the Irish 8 Jersey over the course of the year; Joe's conservative approach and long standing relationship with Heaslip may stand in Stander's way, however.

I do find it worrying that we are probably the only top international rugby team without a good/great carrier playing 8.

Mahatma Geansai

S12b wrote: »

Am I the only one who thinks 6 is the position we should be looking at Stander in?

O'Brien and Heaslip are test Lions and hugely proven and experienced internationals. Then you have Ruddock, Henry and O'Donnell next in line. I'd put Jordi Murphy another tier down.

IMO, the strongest combination of the above is:

1) Stander/SOB/Heaslip
2) Ruddock/SOB/Heaslip
3) SOB/Henry or TOD/Heaslip

For me, you put your three best backrow players on the pitch and as far as I'm concerned that's Stander, SOB and Heaslip.....huge carrying ability while you still will get plenty of dirty work from that trio....lineout options may be the only drawback to that trio.

Heaslip's lineout ability user to be touted as one of his strengths.

Mahatma Geansai

Does Stander have the same poaching skills as Heaslip Mahatma? :pac:

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

Heaslip's lineout ability user to be touted as one of his strengths.

Still is surely? Solid as a rock at lineout time.

If he's the only option in the entire backrow though (do you often see Stander take lineouts?) then his efficacy is clearly under threat..

POM is the man for the lineout abilities. His strength gives opportunities for others.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Interesting to see Gilroy playing FB for Ulster this weekend. Would do his Irish chances no harm to be able to cover that position too.

Rightwing

jm08 wrote: »

I know that in the popular vote for who should be Irish captain on the Indo's site, Heaslip doesn't get a lot of votes.

We don't really have anyone standing out for it, do we? Yet we have plenty of good canditates, I think POM or SOB would be best choice. Best is too old.

awec

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Interesting to see Gilroy playing FB for Ulster this weekend. Would do his Irish chances no harm to be able to cover that position too.

He has always been able to play full back. He will never be a test fullback though.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

awec wrote: »

He has always been able to play full back. He will never be a test fullback though.

Well, I wouldn't expect him to be a starting FB in green but if he was on the wing and was able to cover FB in case of emergency it should help his cause a bit. I mean, that's how Zebo got in the WC squad last year.

Although, come to think of it, quite a few of the backs can play FB if needed, so maybe not.

jm08

Rightwing wrote: »

We don't really have anyone standing out for it, do we? Yet we have plenty of good canditates, I think POM or SOB would be best choice. Best is too old.

I'd say POM would be standing out if he was fit.

Best is only a year older than Heaslip and POC WAS 34 when he was made captain.

POM is due back April/May.

aimee1

jm08 wrote: »

It's an effort to explain why Heaslip is a bit of a devisive figure in Irish rugby unlike players like Sean OBrien, Stephen Ferris or David Wallace who are hugely popular and universally liked.

It's not my fault that he isn't universally loved or rated.

But the only people who matter when rating him are coaches and they ALL picked him.. Multiple Euro Cup, Grand slam and 6n winning, lions series and pro 12 winning coaches. They all rated him.

Rightwing

jm08 wrote: »

I'd say POM would be standing out if he was fit.

Best is only a year older than Heaslip and POC WAS 34 when he was made captain.

POM is due back April/May.

True enough, but many would argue that POC was always the real captain. But point accepted, Best will probably get it on that basis.

jacothelad

Teferi wrote: »

That's an interesting call. I would support him getting the captaincy myself, seems like a bit of a leader and has a head on his shoulders.

As opposed to Nimr al Nimr.

PTH2009 wrote: »

This 6 nations campaign could be a write off for us considering that farell is taking over as defensive coach after it and whatever mistakes our defense does in the competition we can always just say ' not to worry our new coach will sort it out'.

A scary thought here but we could be waiting til March 12th for our first win when we play Italy at home. We play Wales day 1, France day 2 and England day 3. All very hard games

"We're doomed I tell ye, Doomed! It was a wild windy night on the lonely island of Barra...What's that Captain Mainwaring..'Stop trying to cheer PTH2009 up1'...Ach, that's impossible.."

aimee1 wrote: »

what is your opinion on ROG's crying on tv in the rwc 2011 when he was benched behind sexton?

Stop that now, there'll be tears and gnashing of teeth and calls to the Samaritans.

Deleted User wrote: »

We lose a lot at lineout time without POM there though, he does far better than he should standing at the front of defensive lineouts!

Chris henry is an excellent l/o option. He just doesn't get used that much by Ulster who have Diack who is a truly great l/o forward. Pity about some other aspects of his game.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Peter Stringer could still do a job for Ireland, I reckon.

Rala has retired, hasn't he?

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

Heaslip is a very good player with a very well rounded skillset, but he lacks the few standout attributes the best backrows tend to have; SOB and POM would be the Irish example of the next level up. Stander has the standout attributes, but we need to see if he is as good at the nuts and bolts as Heaslip.

Personally, I feel that Stander has developed/is developing the well rounded skillset required, and should be able to earn the Irish 8 Jersey over the course of the year; Joe's conservative approach and long standing relationship with Heaslip may stand in Stander's way, however.

I do find it worrying that we are probably the only top international rugby team without a good/great carrier playing 8.

Stander is a great all round b/r player. I'd have him , Heaslip and SOB.

jm08

Originally Posted by aimee1
what is your opinion on ROG's crying on tv in the rwc 2011 when he was benched behind sexton?

Big deal. Not so sure why you bring Sexton into it. ROG got emotional after a roller coaster of a week when he was dropped to the bench and then a high of having made a really positive impact from the bench (and he does say in the interview that its all about the team, not him).

He got very emotional about missing his family and that this was his last world cup and the end.

Rewatch it again.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXt6GtMxOI8

irishbucsfan

jacothelad wrote: »

As opposed to Nimr al Nimr.

:pac:

awec

jacothelad wrote: »

As opposed to Nimr al Nimr.

FFS jaco

thomond2006

Jaco, give yourself a cookie.

Teferi

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

Heaslip is a very good player with a very well rounded skillset, but he lacks the few standout attributes the best backrows tend to have; SOB and POM would be the Irish example of the next level up. Stander has the standout attributes, but we need to see if he is as good at the nuts and bolts as Heaslip.

I do find it worrying that we are probably the only top international rugby team without a good/great carrier playing 8.

Whatever about the top bit (it's your opinion and it won't change despite the evidence in front of your face) but the bottom paragraph is verifiable nonsense.

Mahatma Geansai

Teferi wrote: »

Whatever about the top bit (it's your opinion and it won't change despite the evidence in front of your face) but the bottom paragraph is verifiable nonsense.

Can you verify it for me so?

Mahatma Geansai

aimee1 wrote: »

But the only people who matter when rating him are coaches and they ALL picked him.. Multiple Euro Cup, Grand slam and 6n winning, lions series and pro 12 winning coaches. They all rated him.

The same could be applied to DOC, but I don't see anyone clamouring for his involvement. Age waits for nobody and there will always be better, younger players coming through. Stander is that better, younger player imo.

Additionally, your line of reasoning could also be applied to the likes of Earls playing 13. Every coach he has had at every level has rated him as a 13, the only people who don't are armchair critics.

Heaslip will be starting for Ireland in the 6N. The Munster fans are just going to have to deal with it.

aimee1

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

The same could be applied to DOC, but I don't see anyone clamouring for his involvement. Age waits for nobody and there will always be better, younger players coming through. Stander is that better, younger player imo.

Additionally, your line of reasoning could also be applied to the likes of Earls playing 13. Every coach he has had at every level has rated him as a 13, the only people who don't are armchair critics.

Heaslips continued good form is on a higher level then any other available no8.

His long list of successes over many seasons is far greater then anything any irish player has ever achieved that I can think of. Heaslip has played as a first choice for a long time, club and country, and 5 out of the last 6 lions tests as a starter.

Earls has played 13 covering for BOD/Payne when they were injured and has never been first choice 13 for ireland and never got near a test jersey for the lions

budhabob

Harley Uptight Light wrote: »

Heaslip will be starting for Ireland in the 6N. The Munster fans are just going to have to deal with it.

Its not a munster v leinster thing. I know fans from both Connacht and Leinster who are of the opinion that Stander should start ahead of Heaslip, or start Stander at 6. Standers form has been such that he needs to be on the pitch, and thoroughly deserves it.

kuang1

budhabob wrote: »

Its not a munster v leinster thing. I know fans from both Connacht and Leinster who are of the opinion that Stander should start ahead of Heaslip, or start Stander at 6. Standers form has been such that he needs to be on the pitch, and thoroughly deserves it.

And I'm a munster fan who thinks Heaslip should hold onto the no.8 jersey for now at least.
100% faith in the guy everytime he plays.
And he's probably the most injury-resistant player in the whole squad...he'll be there for all 5 games.

Btw ROG backs Best for captaincy:
http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/columnists/ronan-ogara/o-captain-my-captain-rise-up-and-hear-the-bells-rory-best-375077.html

Yeah_Right

jm08 wrote: »

Leamy, one of the few Irish players to get an admiring word from the kiwis.

Really?! This kiwi doesn't remember Leamy being that great. Good, yes. Solid, yes. World class, no. Heaslip is in the conversation of top 8s in the world.

Podge_irl

Leamy was very good but also fairly one-dimensional. When he lost a bit of physicality after that illness he just couldn't make up for it in other areas from my recollection. He was outstanding against SA and Aus that Autumn in 06.

Anyway, Heaslip was and is a far better all round number 8 (and was at the time of the 2007 World Cup too but that's a different argument).

CMOTDibbler

The thing about Heaslip (and probably why he's so highly regarded... outside Ireland ) is the amount of hard work he gets through. He's a full 80 player at international level and he is always the guy who gets into rucks and protects the ball. When there's loose ball he's first there and when he carries, it always takes two tacklers to bring him down and he somehow always manages to present the ball quickly and cleanly.

My abiding image of him is of the arm coming out of the ruck with the ball and placing it perfectly for the scrum half as far back as possible. For people who say he doesn't do anything, tell them to actually watch him. He'd make you tired just watching him get up from one ruck and trot over to the next, clear out a player or stand guard and then on to the next one. He doesn't carry that much because he's too busy cleaning it up for the next ball carrier.

jm08

aimee1 wrote: »

Heaslips continued good form is on a higher level then any other available no8.

His long list of successes over many seasons is far greater then anything any irish player has ever achieved that I can think of. Heaslip has played as a first choice for a long time, club and country, and 5 out of the last 6 lions tests as a starter.

Earls has played 13 covering for BOD/Payne when they were injured and has never been first choice 13 for ireland and never got near a test jersey for the lions

That comment might make sense if you could mention who was challenging Heaslip for either Ireland/Lions No. 8 jersey?

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Really?! This kiwi doesn't remember Leamy being that great. Good, yes. Solid, yes. World class, no. Heaslip is in the conversation of top 8s in the world.

The kiwi tv commentators picked him out when Ireland were playing down there. SH have also picked Sean O'Brien out for praise. I can't think of too many other Ireland players that they have done that for.

Podge_irl wrote: »

Leamy was very good but also fairly one-dimensional. When he lost a bit of physicality after that illness he just couldn't make up for it in other areas from my recollection. He was outstanding against SA and Aus that Autumn in 06.

It wasn't an illness - it was a shoulder reconstruction which he had after the tour to SH in 2008. He was never the same after that and kept breaking down - probably due to his physical playing style.

Anyway, Heaslip was and is a far better all round number 8 (and was at the time of the 2007 World Cup too but that's a different argument).

Heislip has had no challengers. He is a lucky boy.

aimee1

jm08 wrote: »

That comment might make sense if you could mention who was challenging Heaslip for either Ireland/Lions No. 8 jersey?

Heislip has had no challengers. He is a lucky boy.

Faletau replaced him in the lions test in 2013.

So Heaslip, despite having no challengers has maintained his performance levels over a long time, thats even more impressive so, to motivate himself to play as he has been playing for so long

jm08

jm08 wrote: »

Heislip has had no challengers. He is a lucky boy.

He is almost peerless because his standards are so high.

That's not luck.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

The thing about Heaslip (and probably why he's so highly regarded... outside Ireland ) is the amount of hard work he gets through. He's a full 80 player at international level and he is always the guy who gets into rucks and protects the ball. When there's loose ball he's first there and when he carries, it always takes two tacklers to bring him down and he somehow always manages to present the ball quickly and cleanly.

My abiding image of him is of the arm coming out of the ruck with the ball and placing it perfectly for the scrum half as far back as possible. For people who say he doesn't do anything, tell them to actually watch him. He'd make you tired just watching him get up from one ruck and trot over to the next, clear out a player or stand guard and then on to the next one. He doesn't carry that much because he's too busy cleaning it up for the next ball carrier.

I used to think he did nothing. I thought he was a big dumb idiot who was always running into contact and slowing things down. Then I asked my brother, who plays rugby, to explain to me what exactly the point of Heaslip was. So he pointed out some things he was doing, and more importantly, what the things he was doing allowed other players around him to do. When I started watching him with these things in mind it became quite apparent what the point of Heaslip was.

awec

Deleted User wrote: »

He is almost peerless because his standards are so high.

That's not luck.

Only partly true.

His standards are high but there actually has been nobody else for ages. Stander is the first contender to arrive on the scene in ages who is actually good enough to provoke a conversation.

This is nothing against Heaslip though. He has had zero competition but has still been excellent for Ireland.

irishbucsfan

jm08 wrote: »

Heislip has had no challengers. He is a lucky boy.

Heaslip certainly had challangers when he was picked for and started on two Lions tours in a row. Denis Leamy was one of those challengers in 2009, but he ended up playing for Ireland against USA and Canada while Heaslip was in South Africa.

jm08

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

The thing about Heaslip (and probably why he's so highly regarded... outside Ireland ) is the amount of hard work he gets through. He's a full 80 player at international level and he is always the guy who gets into rucks and protects the ball. When there's loose ball he's first there and when he carries, it always takes two tacklers to bring him down and he somehow always manages to present the ball quickly and cleanly.

My abiding image of him is of the arm coming out of the ruck with the ball and placing it perfectly for the scrum half as far back as possible. For people who say he doesn't do anything, tell them to actually watch him. He'd make you tired just watching him get up from one ruck and trot over to the next, clear out a player or stand guard and then on to the next one. He doesn't carry that much because he's too busy cleaning it up for the next ball carrier.

Has anyone said he doesn't do anything? The reason Gatland why Gatland dropped him.

“Sometimes he needs to be prepared to play a little bit tighter in this game and hopefully Toby will give us that on Saturday.” Not many coaches have questioned Heaslip’s nitty-gritty workload before.