Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread V

jm08

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Heaslip certainly had challangers when he was picked for and started on two Lions tours in a row. Denis Leamy was one of those challengers in 2009, but he ended up playing for Ireland against USA and Canada while Heaslip was in South Africa.

As I said, Leamy had a shoulder reconstruction in the summer of 2008 after the tour to the SH and he was never the same again and just picked up injury after injury until he eventually had to retire.

former total

awec wrote: »

Only partly true.

His standards are high but there actually has been nobody else for ages. Stander is the first contender to arrive on the scene in ages who is actually good enough to provoke a conversation.

This is nothing against Heaslip though. He has had zero competition but has still been excellent for Ireland.

Have you forgotten the great "James Coughlan should be playing for Ireland" debate?



:pac:

aimee1

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

The thing about Heaslip (and probably why he's so highly regarded... outside Ireland ) is the amount of hard work he gets through. He's a full 80 player at international level and he is always the guy who gets into rucks and protects the ball. When there's loose ball he's first there and when he carries, it always takes two tacklers to bring him down and he somehow always manages to present the ball quickly and cleanly.

My abiding image of him is of the arm coming out of the ruck with the ball and placing it perfectly for the scrum half as far back as possible. For people who say he doesn't do anything, tell them to actually watch him. He'd make you tired just watching him get up from one ruck and trot over to the next, clear out a player or stand guard and then on to the next one. He doesn't carry that much because he's too busy cleaning it up for the next ball carrier.

look at the RK try v france in the rwc, Look at the 3-4 minutes build up play and you will see heaslip carry, support, clear out, rinse and repeat. Henderson and SOB made big carries over the gainline but none of that would be possible without the work of Heaslip at nearly every breakdown.

Stander is a very good player, with his best years ahead of him. He has potential to be every bit as good as Heaslip has been with the added benefit of his greater carrying. But Heaslip is still the best option currently.

awec

awec wrote: »

Only partly true.

His standards are high but there actually has been nobody else for ages. Stander is the first contender to arrive on the scene in ages who is actually good enough to provoke a conversation.

This is nothing against Heaslip though. He has had zero competition but has still been excellent for Ireland.

Which bit isn't true?

The reason that there have been no challengers is that nobody has ever got to his lofty heights.

Has he ever underperformed to an extent that any of the other available players would have been a better option?

Regarding this suggestion that there was a total and absolute lack of challengers (i.e, that everyone else was ****e and therefore we have no benchmark to consider Heaslip's continued selection and also excellence against), you do your own club man a massive disservice.

Roger Wilson was an extremely accomplished #8 playing in a Northampton side which won the Challenge Cup, came runners up in the Heineken Cup (vs Heaslip) and finished in the top 4 of the Premiership Table for his entire time at the club.

Never once was he considered for an Ireland cap in that time though.

I mean, it's entirely reasonable to guess that he had been playing well to get a place in a side who achieved much, yet he wasn't even in the picture to play for Ireland. 'Playing Abroad' obviously a factor, but even pretending it was a main factor is almost certainly wrong.

James Coughlan was brutal too obviously...

:rolleyes:

shuffol

jm08 wrote: »

The kiwi tv commentators picked him out when Ireland were playing down there. SH have also picked Sean O'Brien out for praise. I can't think of too many other Ireland players that they have done that for.

Remember Ally Hogg getting a favourable mention from NZ commentators before, means absolutely nothing other than 2 guys watching a game thought he played well.

I dip my toes back into this thread; still red vs blue nonsense

jm08

aimee1 wrote: »

Faletau replaced him in the lions test in 2013.

So Heaslip, despite having no challengers has maintained his performance levels over a long time, thats even more impressive so, to motivate himself to play as he has been playing for so long

I think his best international season was probably 2009 when maybe he felt that Leamy was a challenger. He has been pretty average since then.

CJ mentioned in his interview how he was looking forward to being up against the best No. 8 in Europe this weekend. Talked about watching vidoes of him growing up.

jm08

former total wrote: »

Have you forgotten the great "James Coughlan should be playing for Ireland" debate?

:pac:

When was that debate?

Unlike Schmidt, Kidney only selected players for the national team if they were starters for their Province.

Good to see Coughlan (in an all ex-Munster backrow) putting it up to Toulon away last weekend though.

aimee1

jm08 wrote: »

I think his best international season was probably 2009 when maybe he felt that Leamy was a challenger. He has been pretty average since then.

Average :rolleyes: JS must be some coach to win 6n back to back with all these average leinster players, a few years after back to back HEC.

jm08

jm08 wrote: »

When was that debate?

Unlike Schmidt, Kidney only selected players for the national team if they were starters for their Province.

Good to see Coughlan (in an all ex-Munster backrow) putting it up to Toulon away last weekend though.

What has this got to do with the price of Kerrygold?

jm08

Deleted User wrote: »

What has this got to do with the price of Kerrygold?

It explains why James Coughlan didn't get much of a luck-in.

jm08

jm08 wrote: »

It explains why James Coughlan didn't get much of a luck-in.

Please explain further.

How does the statement you've provided do anything close to what you've just suggested it does?

mfceiling

jm08 wrote: »

I think his best international season was probably 2009 when maybe he felt that Leamy was a challenger. He has been pretty average since then.

CJ mentioned in his interview how he was looking forward to being up against the best No. 8 in Europe this weekend. Talked about watching vidoes of him growing up.

We'll if CJ has been watching videos it must mean that Heaslip is rubbish.

Seriously lads...take off the red glasses and be happy we've had Heaslip for the last few years.

Imagine he wasn't available in the past and we were going into the 6N with Coughlan or Copeland at 8? Doesn't bear thinking about.

Ah well I suppose he can go home and read this thread and watch those tears of disappointment drip on to all those winners medals he has.

jm08

aimee1 wrote: »

Average :rolleyes: JS must be some coach to win 6n back to back with all these average leinster players, a few years after back to back HEC.

How did saying Heislip has been average since 2009 become ''all those average Leinster players''

Nothing average about Brad Thorn, Isa Nacewa, Nathan Hines or Rocky Elsom

former total

jm08 wrote: »

It explains why James Coughlan didn't get much of a luck-in.

No, it doesn't.

aimee1

mfceiling wrote: »

We'll if CJ has been watching videos it must mean that Heaslip is rubbish.

If Stander needs a video to watch and learn, he could always look at the recent game in thomond.

irishbucsfan

jm08 wrote: »

When was that debate?

Unlike Schmidt, Kidney only selected players for the national team if they were starters for their Province.

Good to see Coughlan (in an all ex-Munster backrow) putting it up to Toulon away last weekend though.

Except when Donncha O'Callaghan lost his place for Munster

jm08

mfceiling wrote: »

We'll if CJ has been watching videos it must mean that Heaslip is rubbish.

Seriously lads...take off the red glasses and be happy we've had Heaslip for the last few years.

Imagine he wasn't available in the past and we were going into the 6N with Coughlan or Copeland at 8? Doesn't bear thinking about.

Ah well I suppose he can go home and read this thread and watch those tears of disappointment drip on to all those winners medals he has.

Who said that Heaslip was rubbish. Most claims here are that he is a World Class No. 8 and the best No. 8 that Ireland have ever had!

aimee1

jm08 wrote: »

How did saying Heislip has been average since 2009 become ''all those average Leinster players''

Nothing average about Brad Thorn, Isa Nacewa, Nathan Hines or Rocky Elsom

None of those 4 played for ireland though. But since JS started naming ireland teams he has been criticized for picking leinster players who quite a few people claim arent good enough for international rugby/average etc. Yet he has delivered trophies.

budhabob

budhabob wrote: »

Its not a munster v leinster thing. I know fans from both Connacht and Leinster who are of the opinion that Stander should start ahead of Heaslip, or start Stander at 6. Standers form has been such that he needs to be on the pitch, and thoroughly deserves it.

When jm and MG are involved then yeah it's purely a Leinster v Munster thing.

jm08

jm08 wrote: »

When was that debate?

Unlike Schmidt, Kidney only selected players for the national team if they were starters for their Province.

Which coach are you arguing for here?

jm08

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Except when Donncha O'Callaghan lost his place for Munster

DOC's last 2 starts for Ireland were against Fiji & Scotland in 12/13 season. His last cap for Ireland was a sub in the 13-13 all draw away to France in the 6Ns.

That season he started 5 Heineken Cup games which would suggest that he hadn't lost his place in Munster at that stage.

jm08

aimee1 wrote: »

None of those 4 played for ireland though. But since JS started naming ireland teams he has been criticized for picking leinster players who quite a few people claim arent good enough for international rugby/average etc. Yet he has delivered trophies.

Well don't be infering that I claim that all Leinster players are average.

mfceiling

aimee1 wrote: »

None of those 4 played for ireland though. But since JS started naming ireland teams he has been criticized for picking leinster players who quite a few people claim arent good enough for international rugby/average etc. Yet he has delivered trophies.

But but but JS is too conservative, he only picks Leinster's seconds and he hasn't delivered anything worth talking about.

Probably more than Rob Penney and Axel Foley put together I'd imagine...and Neil Doak and Les Kiss.

Is this how you play this game?

Sorry jm08, can you please go back to the earlier statement that somehow explained Coughlan not getting any gametime and explain it?

It makes absolutely zero sense as it is.

mfceiling

jm08 wrote: »

Well don't be infering that I claim that all Leinster players are average.

They can't be that average...Most of them have more medals and trophies than any of the Munster or Ulster lads that I can think of.

jm08

Deleted User wrote: »

Which coach are you arguing for here?

I'm explaining that Kidney didn't pick players who were not starting for their Province and that would explain why Coughlan didn't get a look in back then. By the time Schmdit was in charge it was too late for him. Pity. He is a fine player who would have had a much better career if he had left Munster earlier.

jm08

jm08 wrote: »

DOC's last 2 starts for Ireland were against Fiji & Scotland in 12/13 season. His last cap for Ireland was a sub in the 13-13 all draw away to France in the 6Ns.

That season he started 5 Heineken Cup games which would suggest that he hadn't lost his place in Munster at that stage.

Look at the 2012 6N. You have no idea what you're talking about, exact same as with everything you say about Heaslip.

jm08 wrote: »

I'm explaining that Kidney didn't pick players who were not starting for their Province.

And you're wrong. Talking total rubbish.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

I have no idea what conversation is even happening in here anymore.

aimee1

mfceiling wrote: »

But but but JS is too conservative, he only picks Leinster's seconds and he hasn't delivered anything worth talking about.

Probably more than Rob Penney and Axel Foley put together I'd imagine...and Neil Doak and Les Kiss.

Is this how you play this game?

well it is a results business. JS has delivered very positive results. Thats fact, everything else is just bitter opinion.

MJohnston

This thread has become a bizarre series of digressions from a starting point so distant that it resembles a sub-atomic particle. Except a sub-atomic particle has purpose and meaning.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

MJohnston wrote: »

This thread has become a bizarre series of digressions from a starting point so distant that it resembles a sub-atomic particle. Except a sub-atomic particle has purpose and meaning.

Unlike Jamie Heaslip. :cool:

b.gud

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

I have no idea what conversation is even happening in here anymore.

Imagine how bad things are gonna get when the 6N starts

CMOTDibbler

jm08 wrote: »

Has anyone said he doesn't do anything? The reason Gatland why Gatland dropped him.

Apart from the double Gatland, your point is a bit opaque. Gatland's reasons were well heralded as really meaning "not Welsh enough"

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

b.gud wrote: »

Imagine how bad things are gonna get when the 6N starts

jm08

Deleted User wrote: »

Sorry jm08, can you please go back to the earlier statement that somehow explained Coughlan not getting any gametime and explain it?

It makes absolutely zero sense as it is.

Coughlan, who is a year older than Leamy and 3 years older than Heaslip got very little gametime with Munster until the 09/10 season probably because of players like Anthony Foley, David Wallace, Alan Quinlan and Denis Leamy all of whom could play right across the backrow.

jm08

jm08 wrote: »

Coughlan, who is a year older than Leamy and 3 years older than Heaslip got very little gametime with Munster until the 09/10 season probably because of players like Anthony Foley, David Wallace, Alan Quinlan and Denis Leamy all of whom could play right across the backrow.

Okay. And in 2010, when Leamy had to retire, Coughlan took the reigns at Munster and did an extremely good job imo.

However, he didn't play for Ireland, even though he was starting at his province 9 (25 games that season), and Declan Kidney was the Ireland coach.

How does this tally with what you wrote earlier? Does what you wrote have any bearing with reality? Can you please explain what you were trying to convey?

jm08

mfceiling wrote: »

They can't be that average...Most of them have more medals and trophies than any of the Munster or Ulster lads that I can think of.

Ian Dowling has a fair few medals and trophies (and he retired early unfortunately) and I don't recall anyone claiming he should be starting for Ireland even though he was superb v. ABs in Thomond.

With Ruddocks unparalleled form for Leinster at the moment and the likelihood that he will start the next 6N with the no.6 Jersey, it could be a really good chance for him to get that nailed down on a more long term basis.

Playing with an all international backrow at Leinster and having much more power to his game than O'Mahoneey, it could be very difficult for the Munsterman to work his way back into the squad. Probably not as good a bench option as Henry or Jordi and only really covers 6 and Wing.

Pity to see such a good player out of the international team especially as he has an outside chance of Captaining Ireland if Heaslip turns the honours down.

Neil3030

This thread during Heaslip's first press conference as Irish captain has officially become a must-watch.

Bookmarked.

jm08

Deleted User wrote: »

Okay. And in 2010, when Leamy had to retire, Coughlan took the reigns at Munster and did an extremely good job imo.

However, he didn't play for Ireland, even though he was starting at his province 9 (25 games that season), and Declan Kidney was the Ireland coach.

How does this tally with what you wrote earlier? Does what you wrote have any bearing with reality? Can you please explain what you were trying to convey?

Kidney made the mistake of making Heaslip captain.

b.gud

Neil3030 wrote: »

This thread during Heaslip's first press conference as Irish captain has officially become a must-watchavoid.

Bookmarked.

FYP

Neil3030

Deleted User wrote: »

With Ruddocks unparalleled form for Leinster at the moment and the likelihood that he will start the next 6N with the no.6 Jersey, it could be a really good chance for him to get that nailed down on a more long term basis.

Playing with an all international backrow at Leinster and having much more power to his game than O'Mahoneey, it could be very difficult for the Munsterman to work his way back into the squad. Probably not as good a bench option as Henry or Jordi and only really covers 6 and Wing.

Pity to see such a good player out of the international team especially as he has an outside chance of Captaining Ireland if Heaslip turns the honours down.

Are you sure Uncle Captain Conservative Favourite-Addict Joe won't intransigently refuse to give the superior and in-form Ruddock a sniff of gametime once his pet O'Mahony regains fitness?

aimee1

Deleted User wrote: »

With Ruddocks unparalleled form for Leinster at the moment and the likelihood that he will start the next 6N with the no.6 Jersey, it could be a really good chance for him to get that nailed down on a more long term basis.

Playing with an all international backrow at Leinster and having much more power to his game than O'Mahoneey, it could be very difficult for the Munsterman to work his way back into the squad. Probably not as good a bench option as Henry or Jordi and only really covers 6 and Wing.

Pity to see such a good player out of the international team especially as he has an outside chance of Captaining Ireland if Heaslip turns the honours down.

Does Ruddock bring the pashun ??

jm08

jm08 wrote: »

Kidney made the mistake of making Heaslip captain.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamie_Heaslip

Heaslip was selected to captain Ireland against South Africa in the 2012 Autumn Tests, after Brian O'Driscoll, Paul O'Connell and Rory Best were all ruled out through injury.[9][10]
In January 2013, Heaslip was named by Declan Kidney as the new Ireland captain for the 2013 Six Nations Championship, replacing Brian O'Driscoll who had held the role since 2003.[11][12][13]

Some years missing in your memory I see...

What happened between 2010 and 2012?

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Neil3030 wrote: »

This thread during Heaslip's first press conference as Irish captain has officially become a must-watch.

Bookmarked.

I hope he does it in his flip flops and socks. And insists it's only live streamed on periscope. And Jay Z gets his own seat, but nobody is allowed to make eye contact with Jay Z.

aimee1

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

I hope he does it in his flip flops and socks. And insists it's only live streamed on periscope. And Jay Z gets his own seat, but nobody is allowed to make eye contact with Jay Z.

headphones, he has to wear headphones, JayZ too. And wear BA Baracus levels of gold chains. And a Leinster baseball cap.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

I hope he does it in his flip flops and socks.

Whilst wearing a Leinster Jersey.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

aimee1 wrote: »

headphones, he has to wear headphones, JayZ too. And wear BA Baracus levels of gold chains. And a Leinster baseball cap.

And he's drinking coffee, but halts the presser because it's not great coffee and he wants someone to run to 3fe to get him a good one "and make sure the barista draws the Sphinx in the foam or don't bother coming back!"

jm08

Deleted User wrote: »

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamie_Heaslip



Some years missing in your memory I see...

What happened between 2010 and 2012?

By the time Heaslip captained Ireland in 2012, James Coughlan had started about 10 Heineken Cup games in his career to date with some of those starts at 6. He was also 31 years of age.