Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread V

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

vienne86 wrote: »

Any news on Bowe?

Knee injury, Joe says he seems not too bad, might be ligament but is only supposition, basically they don't know.

nice_guy80

why does it take so long to blood good young players?
because we have a very conservative rugby culture, where loyalty and service to a team gets you a renewed or better contract

plus, exciting young players generally have very little opportunity to get into a provincial side

salmocab

JPCN1 wrote: »

Looking forward...

Heaslip, Best, Henry, Ryan perhaps another year, two at most...

3 of them are only 31 hardly old they should be playing in 4 years time

DGRulz

With Kiss now gone off to Ulster, who do people think we'll get in to replace him? And who's available?

CurryFlavoured

salmocab wrote: »

3 of them are only 31 hardly old they should be playing in 4 years time

Best will be 37, he'll have retired by 2019. Henry and Ryan are only subs I doubt at 35 they'll still be in the Irish squad unless they somehow avoid declining. Tough to expect Heaslip to be starting 8 at 35 in 2019 but who knows.

Bowe will also be 35. Kearney 33, Sexton 34. The starting team will look very different by WC 2019 otherwise we'll have a team of pensioners.

CurryFlavoured

We definitely need young players to come through. In the Canada game I'm pretty sure we fielded the oldest starting WC team in history (or so commentary said). These guys will give us another year or 2 at least but I'd say a lot of them will be gone by the next world cup, be it retirement or decline in ability.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

It will be interesting to see what we do come 6 Nations time. If Joe isn't planning on sticking around past 2017 he may not really be thinking about blooding players or leaving us with a really good, young core of a team. He may just be thinking get another 6 Nations title on his CV.

England will be coming into the tournament with a point to prove, regardless of who is in charge. Wales will be hurting given they did as well as any of the home nations with considerably more injuries, they'll also be looking to bounce back. Scotland have improved so much since the 6 Nations and assuming it wasn't just the World Cup effect they'll be a challenge. France could murder us all depending on what happens in the next few weeks with them.

So the question is do we go into the 6 Nations next year with the sole purpose of winning it? Or do we treat it as the start of our next 4 year cycle and shake things up a bit? Is it possible to do both? A lot will depend on who is available and what kind of form players are in.

AbusesToilets

We are going to be in a bad place if we don't bring new players through. Most of that team will be past it/ gone before the next WC comes around.

Utah_Saint

Should we get a good NZ coaching setup in to work with the underage Ireland team. Have them play a SH style and hope through time it filters through to the senior setup? Just a thought...

Pudsy33

AbusesToilets wrote: »

We are going to be in a bad place if we don't bring new players through. Most of that team will be past it/ gone before the next WC comes around.

We will. Schmidt has built a squad, can't really argue with that.

phog

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

It will be interesting to see what we do come 6 Nations time. If Joe isn't planning on sticking around past 2017 he may not really be thinking about blooding players or leaving us with a really good, young core of a team. He may just be thinking get another 6 Nations title on his CV.

England will be coming into the tournament with a point to prove, regardless of who is in charge. Wales will be hurting given they did as well as any of the home nations with considerably more injuries, they'll also be looking to bounce back. Scotland have improved so much since the 6 Nations and assuming it wasn't just the World Cup effect they'll be a challenge. France could murder us all depending on what happens in the next few weeks with them.

So the question is do we go into the 6 Nations next year with the sole purpose of winning it? Or do we treat it as the start of our next 4 year cycle and shake things up a bit? Is it possible to do both? A lot will depend on who is available and what kind of form players are in.

Regardless of how long Joe is planning tohang around, the IRFU and their sponsors will want us to target the 6Ns. Rightly so too, IMHO.

AbusesToilets

Pudsy33 wrote: »

We will. Schmidt has built a squad, can't really argue with that.

Not at all, but that squad is getting ready to disappear soon enough. This was the WC to capitalise on the experience of those players, a la England 2003.

AbusesToilets

phog wrote: »

Regardless of how long Joe is planning tohang around, the IRFU and their sponsors will want us to target the 6Ns. Rightly so too, IMHO.

I wouldn't say we should downplay winning the 6 nations, but we can't keep using the win now argument as the reason we don't blood new players in a more timely manner.

That is an area where the SH are much better than us and it pays dividends for them. NZ are ruthless when it comes to promoting new players. Granted they have better talent than us by and large but it must breed fantastic competition and motivation in their players.

Would Ireland have left a WC winning player like Dagg at home in favor of a young tyro? I doubt it.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

What positions do we think are most important to get new players into before the next world cup?

Between age and quality there's a few.

Murray will be 30 next WC which isn't too bad but we definitely need one, if not two, new scrum halves.
Sexton will be getting on, and depending on injuries, could already be gone. Madigan and Jackson could make the necessary steps up there but again you'd want someone else coming up there.
New wingers, new 13, new FB......

I don't even know about the forwards.

CIARAN_BOYLE

CurryFlavoured wrote: »

We definitely need young players to come through. In the Canada game I'm pretty sure we fielded the oldest starting WC team in history (or so commentary said). These guys will give us another year or 2 at least but I'd say a lot of them will be gone by the next world cup, be it retirement or decline in ability.

A lazy journalist made that accusation which was completly false and it was reported as gospel for ages.

Bazzo

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

What positions do we think are most important to get new players into before the next world cup?

Between age and quality there's a few.

Murray will be 30 next WC which isn't too bad but we definitely need one, if not two, new scrum halves.
Sexton will be getting on, and depending on injuries, could already be gone. Madigan and Jackson could make the necessary steps up there but again you'd want someone else coming up there.
New wingers, new 13, new FB......

I don't even know about the forwards.

While I have no problem with Schmidt's decision to manufacture a centre partnerships of Henshaw and Payne because it was probably the best option available to us, the downside of this is that two of our most talented full backs are now centres.

total former

There is only one solution IMO. End the obsessive focus on winning the 6N.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Bazzo wrote: »

While I have no problem with Schmidt's decision to manufacture a centre partnerships of Henshaw and Payne because it was probably the best option available to us, the downside of this is that two of our most talented full backs are now centres.

Very true. I was just thinking who are the other options at the Provinces?

Felix Jones, currently 28.
Leader or O'Halloran at Connacht, both young enough but are they any good?
Nelson at Ulster?

Unless Munster get ideas about Zebo based on his World Cup performances I can't think of anyone else?

CurryFlavoured

We'll need a new tighthead for sure. Probably a new #8, starting fly half and outside centre, probably full back and at least one winger. And that's just starting players. Backs are the main issue.

Who are the contenders to come through? Heard Olding is good, need Madigan or Jackson to step up. Zebo is still young.

CIARAN_BOYLE

Tight head needs new blood. Ross and White definitely wont make another rwc. Theres Moore Furlong Archer Ah You and Herbst (project) but one of them (probably Moore) has to start getting starts as soon as possible.

Hooker as well, our first three choices are 29 or older. While Strauss and Cronin could make the next rwc they may not. Sherry who would be 4th choice atm has injury woes so i wouldn't bet on him filling the void. A new hooker urgently needs to be identified and blooded.

Obviously POC is gone in the second row, Ryan, Tuohy and Mccarthy both the wrong side of 30. Toners only 29. I wouldnt say new blood is urgently needed in the second row but I would definitely not bring either Tuohy or McCarthy on a Summer tour as fourth choice lock.

Of the first six choices in the back row only Heaslip and Henry are the wrong side of 30. No urgent action needed but i would have an inclination to not choose Henry on the bench in 50/50 calls with Murphy, Ruddock, TOD or Stander.

Pudsy33

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Not at all, but that squad is getting ready to disappear soon enough. This was the WC to capitalise on the experience of those players, a la England 2003.

Ah its not. Sexton, all the back 3 bar Kearney, Murray and most of the forwards are all young enough. I'm not worried about our future relative to the other European nations. I'm worried about our standing globally.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Pudsy33 wrote: »

Ah its not. Sexton, all the back 3 bar Kearney, Murray and most of the forwards are all young enough. I'm not worried about our future relative to the other European nations. I'm worried about our standing globally.

Sexton is 30, injury prone and one concussion away from an early retirement.

phog

AbusesToilets wrote: »

I wouldn't say we should downplay winning the 6 nations, but we can't keep using the win now argument as the reason we don't blood new players in a more timely manner.

That is an area where the SH are much better than us and it pays dividends for them. NZ are ruthless when it comes to promoting new players. Granted they have better talent than us by and large but it must breed fantastic competition and motivation in their players.

Would Ireland have left a WC winning player like Dagg at home in favor of a young tyro? I doubt it.

We played three AIs in Joe's first year as coach, he played BOD in all three to get him match fit in the hope of beating the All Black's, why wasn't a different centre tried in at least one of those games? Complaining about lack of experience today is a tad too late.

CurryFlavoured

Pudsy33 wrote: »

Ah its not. Sexton, all the back 3 bar Kearney, Murray and most of the forwards are all young enough. I'm not worried about our future relative to the other European nations. I'm worried about our standing globally.

Sexton is 30, Bowe 31, Rob 29, Payne 30. These guys probably won't be starters at the next WC and we don't really have a wealth of depth coming through.

Forwards doesn't seem as bad. We have depth and young players in most positions bar 8 in particular. Who succeeds Heaslip?

ixus

Schmidt will have learned an awful lot today about his players. He has earned the right to further develop the squad and style of play how he sees fit.

If we finally see the death of this passive drift defence i will be delighted. In the past, you had BoD, D'Arcy or Bowe willing to take the risk and shoot up. No one had the stones for it today.

CIARAN_BOYLE

ixus wrote: »

Schmidt will have learned an awful lot today about his players. He has earned the right to further develop the squad and style of play how he sees fit.

If we finally see the death of this passive drift defence i will be delighted. In the past, you had BoD, D'Arcy or Bowe willing to take the risk and shoot up. No one had the stones for it today.

I think the replacement of Kiss is the most important decision facing Schmidt.

Pudsy33

CurryFlavoured wrote: »

Sexton is 30, Bowe 31, Rob 29, Payne 30. These guys probably won't be starters at the next WC and we don't really have a wealth of depth coming through.

Forwards doesn't seem as bad. We have depth and young players in most positions bar 8 in particular. Who succeeds Heaslip?

Zebo, Kearney Jr, Earls, Gilroy, Henshaw, Jackson. All young and capable. The young centres up in ulster too.

Conan I suspect.

Utah_Saint

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11531358

Good read in the NZHearld....

The writer said the Arg game plan was to go hell for leather in first 15 to build a lead knowing Ireland don't have the backs to chase the game....

phog

CurryFlavoured wrote: »

Sexton is 30, Bowe 31, Rob 29, Payne 30. These guys probably won't be starters at the next WC and we don't really have a wealth of depth coming through.

Forwards doesn't seem as bad. We have depth and young players in most positions bar 8 in particular. Who succeeds Heaslip?

CJ Stander

CIARAN_BOYLE

phog wrote: »

CJ Stander

Assuming there is a Wolfhounds match this year Id probably start him at 8.

walshb

total former wrote: »

There is only one solution IMO. End the obsessive focus on winning the 6N.

End this arrogance that the 6N somehow means little....

wp_rathead

After 07 shambles Eddie O'sullivan kept same squad for 6 Nations and we came 4th (w2 l3)
After 11 Dissapointment Declan Kidney kept same squad for 6 nations and we came 3rd (w2 d1 l2)

Hopefully Joe starts the build for next RWC

irishbucsfan

wp_rathead wrote: »

After 07 shambles Eddie O'sullivan kept same squad for 6 Nations and we came 4th (w2 l3)
After 11 Dissapointment Declan Kidney kept same squad for 6 nations and we came 3rd (w2 d1 l2)

Hopefully Joe starts the build for next RWC

The problem is that the next year is vital in securing seeding for the next world cup. So if we throw it all out and start again and things get rocky then it could hurt us in the long term.

Our first priority should be gaining a world ranking position of 4th or higher by the end of 2016. Then we can chuck it all and start again.

total former

walshb wrote: »

End this arrogance that the 6N somehow means little....

It means a lot. Not as much as the World Cup though.

The 6N pays the bills. If the IRFU are happy with failing at every world cup as trade-off, then there is no problem. Personally I think a rethink is in order.

Bazzo

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Very true. I was just thinking who are the other options at the Provinces?

Felix Jones, currently 28.
Leader or O'Halloran at Connacht, both young enough but are they any good?
Nelson at Ulster?

Unless Munster get ideas about Zebo based on his World Cup performances I can't think of anyone else?

I don't think Jones has really impressed much, and if you haven't done it by 28 you probably aren't going to.

TOH(24) looks a solid prospect, he had injury problems but seems to have come through them and has been getting better since last season. Leader(22) has had some injury problems lately unfortunately. A year ago he looked very promising but he's probably taken a step or two back in the mean time.

EDIT: Just to add, while these lads LOOK like they may have promise without seeing young players like this get some blooding in the 6 nations it's really hard to tell...

AbusesToilets

irishbucsfan wrote: »

The problem is that the next year is vital in securing seeding for the next world cup. So if we throw it all out and start again and things get rocky then it could hurt us in the long term.

Our first priority should be gaining a world ranking position of 4th or higher by the end of 2016. Then we can chuck it all and start again.

It didn't do use much use this time around, or the last. Bottom line, a team needs to be able to win 4/5 high intensity matches to win the WC. Being able to accomplish that should be the long term focus.

irishbucsfan

AbusesToilets wrote: »

It didn't do use much use this time around, or the last. Bottom line, a team needs to be able to win 4/5 high intensity matches to win the WC. Being able to accomplish that should be the long term focus.

You're saying that being a 1st seed instead of a 2nd seed wouldn't help? :pac:

Wait a minute, what do you mean it didn't do much use this time around!? We weren't 1st seeds!

CIARAN_BOYLE

irishbucsfan wrote: »

The problem is that the next year is vital in securing seeding for the next world cup. So if we throw it all out and start again and things get rocky then it could hurt us in the long term.

Our first priority should be gaining a world ranking position of 4th or higher by the end of 2016. Then we can chuck it all and start again.

There is the balanced approach.

Strauss or Cronin gets a start

White gets cut, Moore or Furlong push Ross to the bench.

McCarthy/Tuohy doesnt make the depth chart.

50/50 call goes against Henry in favour of Ruddock/TOD/Stander/Murphy.

Marmion over Redden/Boss

thats probably enough change in my opinion

Tommy Bowe doesnt start unless in top form. No consideration of credit in the bank.

AbusesToilets

irishbucsfan wrote: »

You're saying that being a 1st seed instead of a 2nd seed wouldn't help? :pac:

There are obviously benefits to avoiding a Group of Death, but it doesn't get away from the need to perform in the knock outs. We need to be good enough to beat 5 other top teams to win the competition.

phog

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

There is the balanced approach.

Strauss or Cronin gets a start

White gets cut, Moore or Furlong push Ross to the bench.

McCarthy/Tuohy doesnt make the depth chart.

50/50 call goes against Henry in favour of Ruddock/TOD/Stander/Murphy.

Marmion over Redden/Boss

thats probably enough change in my opinion

Tommy Bowe doesnt start unless in top form. No consideration of credit in the bank.

Give Paddy Jackson more gametime, let him sit on the bench behind Sexton too. This stop start with him can't be doing him any good.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Bazzo wrote: »

I don't think Jones has really impressed much, and if you haven't done it by 28 you probably aren't going to.

TOH(24) looks a solid prospect, he had injury problems but seems to have come through them and has been getting better since last season. Leader(22) has had some injury problems lately unfortunately. A year ago he looked very promising but he's probably taken a step or two back in the mean time.

EDIT: Just to add, while these lads LOOK like they may have promise without seeing young players like this get some blooding in the 6 nations it's really hard to tell...

Maybe we need to send a Wolfhounds squad down to Georgia/Romania on a regular basis. A bit like the NZ Maori's do. Good for the tier 2 sides, good for us. Obviously it's not the same as playing 6 Nations but it's a step up from Pro 12.

irishbucsfan

AbusesToilets wrote: »

There are obviously benefits to avoiding a Group of Death, but it doesn't get away from the need to perform in the knock outs. We need to be good enough to beat 5 other top teams to win the competition.

We can worry about that after we have ourselves at first seeding. I'd much rather be in a group with Wales or England than New Zealand.

CIARAN_BOYLE

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Maybe we need to send a Wolfhounds squad down to Georgia/Romania on a regular basis. A bit like the NZ Maori's do. Good for the tier 2 sides, good for us. Obviously it's not the same as playing 6 Nations but it's a step up from Pro 12.

Unfortunately as shown by Emerging Ireland in the Tblisi cup and the IRB nations cup there is no guarantee that Georgia/Romania will put out decent sides. It may well prove to be a step down from the Pro 12.

AbusesToilets

irishbucsfan wrote: »

We can worry about that after we have ourselves at first seeding. I'd much rather be in a group with Wales or England than New Zealand.

While I would agree with you in practical terms, we need to get to the stage that we don't fear being matched up against any team, to include NZ. We have to beat these teams to win the competition, can't be avoided.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

irishbucsfan wrote: »

We can worry about that after we have ourselves at first seeding. I'd much rather be in a group with Wales or England than New Zealand.

The worry is that come the next World Cup seedings won't be that much of a help.

Argentina have established themselves as a top team since the last World Cup and by 2019 will have had a Super Rugby squad for 4 years where a large chunk of their national team players have been able to play together on a weekly basis.

Japan will, maybe, have the same benefit of the Super Rugby team, and if they carry on the momentum from this WC they'll be up there too. A lot of question marks over all of that though.

Obviously a Top 4 seeding wouldn't hurt, at the very least it would mean we should be the best team in our pool but I'm not sure it'll be as big a benefit as previous World Cups.

Obviously we should still aim for it though.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Unfortunately as shown by Emerging Ireland in the Tblisi cup and the IRB nations cup there is no guarantee that Georgia/Romania will put out decent sides. It may well prove to be a step down from the Pro 12.

True, but then they need to have some sort of proper structure to it. I don't know how exactly they'd go about that but surely there's an argument for playing an up and coming 6 Nations squad over the likes of Portugal or Spain being more beneficial to Georgia or Romania? I don't mean that to sound arrogant.

irishbucsfan

AbusesToilets wrote: »

While I would agree with you in practical terms, we need to get to the stage that we don't fear being matched up against any team, to include NZ. We have to beat these teams to win the competition, can't be avoided.

Yeah, well a good way to build yourself up to beat these teams is not crap yourself and throw all your toys out of the pram after one loss. It also helps if you don't suddenly start pretending southern hemisphere teams are some crazy supernatural mythical beings. The players know that, the fans unfortunately seem a lot more reactionary.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

AbusesToilets wrote: »

While I would agree with you in practical terms, we need to get to the stage that we don't fear being matched up against any team, to include NZ. We have to beat these teams to win the competition, can't be avoided.

Another benefit Argentina have from playing in the Rugby Championship. They play the 3 (historically) best teams in the world every year. Facing any of the 6 Nations sides doesn't phase them now.

CIARAN_BOYLE

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

True, but then they need to have some sort of proper structure to it. I don't know how exactly they'd go about that but surely there's an argument for playing an up and coming 6 Nations squad over the likes of Portugal or Spain being more beneficial to Georgia or Romania? I don't mean that to sound arrogant.

yeah but spain and Portugal are in Georgias qualifying structure for the next rwc.

I wonder if an IRB nations cup type event hosted in a 6 nations country would be a commercial success sufficient to provide prize money that would make Georgia/Romania send a full squad to compete.

The Rape of Lucretia

ixus wrote: »

Schmidt will have learned an awful lot today about his players. He has earned the right to further develop the squad and style of play how he sees fit.

No style of play development needed - just improvement in the execution of the style we are playing.

Defence did not function today. More work needed on shutting down the opposition attacks and maintaining defensive shape and skills.

The box kick strategy is still the way to go. But similarly, was not executed well today - kicks at the wrong time and to the wrong place. Not that I would would blame Murrey entirely for them either - the rest of the team has to create the platform for them to be effective, and be on the same wavelength as him when they are kicked.

So no great rethink or crisis of confidence - just more work to improve skills and teamwork on this strategy needed to improve the overall effectiveness.